Protocol for determination of whirling causes

[plecocicho]

There has been quite a few debates of whirling, but non conclusive. I decided to take a scientific aproach to it. Collect at least 50 different testomonies better more) about whirling with detailed information so we can determine trough statistic possible causes (enviromental/parasites). It would be best, if everyone with this experience woukd fill this questionare.
1. type (heckel/green/blue/domestic asian/domestic german/domestic local
2. size of aquarium, bb/planted/biotope and filtration
3. ph,gh, kh, T, conductivity,nitrate. how many wcs per week (in %)
4. which kind of food (flakes/granul, frozen, FD, live) and how many feeds per day
5. any treatment prior to whirling
6. your treatment of the diseased fish.

Thanks.

[Mark N]

Line 3
Can you tell me what is needed to test these water parameters. And where to get them. I am currently only using a API test kit.

[smsimcik]

1. Domestic, Stendker via Hans.
2. 75 gallon grow out tank, bb, sponge filters
3. ph-7.4 gh-160, kh-90, nitrate- minimal, 75% daily water changes.
4. Homemade beefheart/seafood mix. Al's FDBW. Angels Plus flakes.
5. None
6. Euthanasia.

[brewmaster15]

Personally I think you should focus on dissolved gasses..

Al

[DJW]

Can I suggest three more?

7. Water aged or not aged.
8. City water or private well.
9. Time of year.

[plecocicho]

This survey is international. Most of Europeans have city water, so i felt it would be redundant. As far as aging and time of the year i know what are you hinting- chloramines/pH swing/microbubbles. Most of the water is also aged, but i wil ask that too. One scandinavian guy had this problem, he only did 30% per week. Whirling stopped when he added salt to his tank. The affected fish were Unini heckels.
Mark N, at least Ph, hardness and T.

[brewmaster15]

You should also ask how long they have had the fish.
..and where the fish came from(pet shop,wholesaler/importer.

I agree with Dans item suggestions as well.
Al

[plecocicho]

As far as i know its always one discus, who starts whirling then it spreads. If it was the water issue, all of them would start at approximatelly same time. I suspect it has to be a parasite issue- Cryptobia lubilans, Myxozoa infection from the live/frozen food or some other parasites.

[Kyla]

what if more than one discus have it but the weakest one shows symptoms first, followed by any others who carry it?

[plecocicho]

The weakest will be always the first infected, stress and all. Whatever it is, its contagious and it always spreads, but not to all discus. Some may have had aquaried immunity. For example, one scandinavian guy had a group of Unini heckles. Bu only 3 got the disease and he cured it with a salt bath. As far i remember, Pat Husband had it (with Tefe and Unini heckel), the brazilian guy with Cuipea and Farebox, again with Unini.

[brewmaster15]

The weakest will be always the first infected, stress and all. Whatever it is, its contagious and it always spreads, but not to all discus. Some may have had aquaried immunity. For example, one scandinavian guy had a group of Unini heckles. Bu only 3 got the disease and he cured it with a salt bath. As far i remember, Pat Husband had it (with Tefe and Unini heckel), the brazilian guy with Cuipea and Farebox, again with Unini.

I think its premature to call it contagious and assume its a disease organism. I honestly dont think it is.

However, the best way to identify is send an affected fish to a lab.
Al

[nc0gnet0]

I think its premature to call it contagious and assume its a disease organism. I honestly dont think it is.

However, the best way to identify is send an affected fish to a lab.
Al

:)

[nc0gnet0]

a few more you might want to check out:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115513-I-ve-lost-a-fish-now-I-m-trying-to-keep-the-rest-safe

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?110092-Discus-Turning-Dark-and-Hovering-in-Corner-not-eating/page2

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?115942-3-inch-discus-flashing-around-Please-help-!!!&p=1114050#post1114050

[DJW]

Since we don't really know if the cause is animal or mineral, the data collected shouldn't discount possibilities. If you make assumptions and limit the gathering of information, you will get results that tend to validate your preconceptions.

There does seem to be an association with WCs. Who knows, it could be 'Bends of the Brain' from nitrogen gas coming out of solution in the bloodstream. If its a neurotoxin in the water supply, I would expect to see a geographical factor associated with the use of pesticides or pharmaceuticals. These are just wild guesses, which is why collecting some info is a good idea... maybe our guesses can get a little better.

[smsimcik]

I think its premature to call it contagious and assume its a disease organism. I honestly dont think it is.

However, the best way to identify is send an affected fish to a lab.
Al

Looking at this as a veterinarian, whirling disease leads me to believe it is purely a neurologic disease of the brain. The fish I have witnessed whirling appear to be having a seizure or something very similar to a seizure.

Seizures are the result of an abnormal area of the brain which becomes hyper-excitable when exposed to some sort of external stimuli. In dogs with epilepsy, seizures can be triggered by excitement, fear, loud noises, bright lights, etc.

With whirling, my theory is that the fish has a brain lesion caused by either an infectious agent (protozoa, virus, prion, etc) or maybe even some genetic abnormality. The seizure activity is then triggered by external stimuli (large water changes, dissolved gases, ph swings, conduntivity swings, bright light, etc).

Of course this is just me speculating as a veterinarian and a scientist. I have no evidence of any of this but it does seem like a reasonable explanation.

Al, you're right in that the only way to find out is to test affected fish. Many affected fish, not just a couple. It would take a pathologist a lot of time and effort to study a large number of affected fish to try and isolate the brain lesion responsible for the symptoms. However, there's not much financial incentive for a pathology lab to undertake such an endeavor.

[kira ken]

This is not true for me. I have lost at least 2 or 3 alphas due to whirling. In my case the first infected fish is always the one that eat the most.

Best,

The weakest will be always the first infected, stress and all. Whatever it is, its contagious and it always spreads, but not to all discus. Some may have had aquaried immunity. For example, one scandinavian guy had a group of Unini heckles. Bu only 3 got the disease and he cured it with a salt bath. As far i remember, Pat Husband had it (with Tefe and Unini heckel), the brazilian guy with Cuipea and Farebox, again with Unini.

[plecocicho]

Kira Ken, then tis like with headstanding (swim bladder infection), its always the most dominant fish. Hm, maybe its a stress of being on the top?
Al, i am not biased, but the nature of the disease (symptoms come in a certain rythm, not unlike malaria feaver attacks). I agree, the correct anwser would be to autopsy such diseased individulas.

[Mark N]

Hmm? Whirling disease? Gas distress order? Micro bubbles? Capillaria? All seem to be possible causes.
I currently have 5 fish out of 7 affected. Other two may just be showing different behavior.
Two physically have jumped out of my tanks. I really don't know if it was dumb luck or what but on both occasions I was there To scoop them back up and get them back into the water. Today infact was one of the days.
I might add , I believe that my three Cory cats have been infected as well. They did not whirl like the Discus, but were the first to show sines of distress. Namely Skiddish.
In my case there are so so many variables it would be hard to pinpoint a exact source or cause. In time I am sure I will lose a fish. When that time comes I will send the fish in to have it examined to find the actual cause ,disease. I currently can not bring my self to cull one of them.
Although it seems the fish get better for a period of time. The symptoms return. Medication doesn't seem to help.
The fish can appear to be getting better for days even weeks, looking happy and healthy. And in a blink of an eye, go smashing it's self into everything and swirling or whirling at full speed. It seems to stop after it hits it's head fairly hard against something. But it is only temporary as it will do this several times for days. Then sometimes returns to almost what you would call normal for some time.

Excessive Eating does seem to trigger the whirling, but I believe it is a reaction to the cause.
Also to be mentioned, water changes also seem to trigger it. More so with water direct from the tap.

Today I am trying to Get in contact with an aquatic veteran to stop by or at least speak to directly.
This problem truly has taken any pleasure or enjoyment out of owning these fish. Truthfully it is disturbing.
One day I hope to have an answer to better help others in countering similar problems.

[relliott]

I might add one more observation. Among Angelfish fry it is something I’ve encountered. In a clutch of around 50+ a couple were spinners. I watched for a couple of days with and with no improvement I finally culled them, namely: fed them to the Discus. It’s been weeks with no further incidents. I’m inclined to think it’s environmental and possibly the fish suffer a siezure or have experienced a stroke. Certainly seems to be the result of something other than parasite or bacterial as more of the fry would have perished..? By the way none of the affected fish were deformed suggesting any type of genetic issue.

[Bizarro252]

removing my post, moving to below, didnt notice this thread was so old and in a section not really matching what I was sharing :)

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?130336-Whirling-Disease&p=1279606#post1279606