Acclimation of Discus how should I do this with shipped fish

[Mangalman]

I am going to take the plunge (new to discus) on getting my first discus. I may start with 4.5 inch fish and possibly 6 of them for a 75 gal. planted tank. The shipper in CA says his pH is about 7.4 and mine in around 7.6. Since the pH is so close can I get away with doing a pour into a bucket then add water incrementally from my tank and eventually (plop)method? I imagine their is going to be a lot of fish waste in the bags so I can't see it would be good to allow the fish to rest in that water for very long? I don't have another tank set up as quarantine either nor do I have water that has been (aged and gone through a cycle). Am I going to be in trouble. I so hope all will go well for me. I also currently have a school of 30 cardinal tetra in the tank (6 mo to a year) and a few embers - canister filter etc. thanks for your helps and input. Luke

[gluedandscrewed]

lost many fish trying to do the incremental acclimation thats been touted for ages until i read the acclimation instructions at somethingsfishy.com,, haven't had a chance to try it but it makes sense.

[MendoMan]

Float your bags long enough to get equal temp then remove fish from bag and put in your tank. That's it.

[Kirbs]

That's what I just did an hour ago! Floated the bags, drained the water and slid them from the bag to the tank! Everything is fine so far!

[RogueDiscus]

An important instruction I've received from my supplier was to not get any of the shipping water into your tank due to the waste and I think ammonia build up. Once the bag is opened and gasses are released, the ammonia in the water starts to become the toxic form. You want to get the fish out of that water quickly and plop them into your tank. My opinion is that your pH difference would not be a problem.

I haven't read somethingsfishy's instructions, but I did just read somewhere here recently that they use Kordon shipping bags. I think these are breathable bags and the acclimation process for them may be different that shipping in regular plastic bags.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have helped Ryan tank several of his shipments; best way is to cut open the bag, do not allow any air to enter the bag, drain the water out of the bag into a bucket, sink whatever while holding the opening to the bag somewhat closed so the fish remains in the bag. Once the water is drained walk the bag to the tank and allow the fish to ease from the bag into the tank. We have tanked hundreds of fish this way.
Pat

[gluedandscrewed]

An important instruction I've received from my supplier was to not get any of the shipping water into your tank due to the waste and I think ammonia build up. Once the bag is opened and gasses are released, the ammonia in the water starts to become the toxic form. You want to get the fish out of that water quickly and plop them into your tank. My opinion is that your pH difference would not be a problem.

I haven't read somethingsfishy's instructions, but I did just read somewhere here recently that they use Kordon shipping bags. I think these are breathable bags and the acclimation process for them may be different that shipping in regular plastic bags.

somethingsfishy's instructions are per your quote,,, "somefinsfishy" uses the kordon bags, he only sells fry cause he can ship one in the bag in only a cup of water

[Bizarro252]

I cannot find somethingsfishy.com's directions, the results I do get trying to search for it do not appear to be what I am looking for...

I myself am expecting discus later this week for the first time. My plan was to put them and their bag water into a bucket and drip water from the tank into the bucket over the course of an hour or so...

I see many people here and elsewhere mentioning not letting air into the bag, stating that the ammonia will become toxic - I do not understand this - for this to happen the PH of the water would have to change sharply for ammonium to switch to ammonia, and this should not happen just by exposing the bag water to air.

I have high PH water (~8.3), and will probably be about a full point above what the discus are being shipped in (From Hans) and used to so I do not see a way around a drip method, or mix method. I would think they would surely get pH shocked if I just acclimated the temp and slid them in.

Tank water will have O2 in it as well so the dish should not suffocate as this will be being added to their water - am I WAY off base here? Need to know if so - I dont want to hurt my fish when they get here!

[Second Hand Pat]

I cannot find somethingsfishy.com's directions, the results I do get trying to search for it do not appear to be what I am looking for...

I myself am expecting discus later this week for the first time. My plan was to put them and their bag water into a bucket and drip water from the tank into the bucket over the course of an hour or so...

I see many people here and elsewhere mentioning not letting air into the bag, stating that the ammonia will become toxic - I do not understand this - for this to happen the PH of the water would have to change sharply for ammonium to switch to ammonia, and this should not happen just by exposing the bag water to air.

I have high PH water (~8.3), and will probably be about a full point above what the discus are being shipped in (From Hans) and used to so I do not see a way around a drip method, or mix method. I would think they would surely get pH shocked if I just acclimated the temp and slid them in.

Tank water will have O2 in it as well so the dish should not suffocate as this will be being added to their water - am I WAY off base here? Need to know if so - I dont want to hurt my fish when they get here!

I would suggesting asking Hans. Pretty sure he is a drop and plop guy. He can explain what happens to ph in a shipping bag and when exposed to air.
Pat

[Bizarro252]

I would suggesting asking Hans. Pretty sure he is a drop and plop guy. He can explain what happens to ph in a shipping bag and when exposed to air.
Pat

Thanks, I will. I assume he has some sort of paperwork of suggestions :) I know he and others are a drop and plop believer - I am just hesitant with a full point or maybe more in PH difference - thats 10 times different water in one direction or the other :)

I get that the PH of the bag would change VERY fast if you threw an airstone in it - but just opening it...not sure on that. I guess however if you drip you are adding gasses to the water that was in the bag, and could spike PH in one direction or the other... Hrm. Research time. Thank you.

[RogueDiscus]

I'll get out of the way after this since my understanding is all second hand, but I thought it was that opening the bags allowed dissolved gasses inside to escape (CO2?) causing the switch to toxic ammonia.

Also, sorry for confusing somethingsfishy with somefinsfishy.

[Larry Bugg]

I cannot find somethingsfishy.com's directions, the results I do get trying to search for it do not appear to be what I am looking for...

I myself am expecting discus later this week for the first time. My plan was to put them and their bag water into a bucket and drip water from the tank into the bucket over the course of an hour or so...

I see many people here and elsewhere mentioning not letting air into the bag, stating that the ammonia will become toxic - I do not understand this - for this to happen the PH of the water would have to change sharply for ammonium to switch to ammonia, and this should not happen just by exposing the bag water to air.

I have high PH water (~8.3), and will probably be about a full point above what the discus are being shipped in (From Hans) and used to so I do not see a way around a drip method, or mix method. I would think they would surely get pH shocked if I just acclimated the temp and slid them in.

Tank water will have O2 in it as well so the dish should not suffocate as this will be being added to their water - am I WAY off base here? Need to know if so - I dont want to hurt my fish when they get here!

Yes, you are way off base. Read post #2 for a better explanation than I can give. I do just as Pat suggested and have for years now. It is the best way to do this.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?116723-Drop-In-Acclimation

[RogueDiscus]

Thank you Larry!

[fishermn7]

Drop and plop

[Bizarro252]

Yes, you are way off base. Read post #2 for a better explanation than I can give. I do just as Pat suggested and have for years now. It is the best way to do this.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?116723-Drop-In-Acclimation

Thank you! I hope I did not come across cocky, I do very much want to understand the reasons why something could be good/bad is all :) I will check out that post in the thread you linked - my new discus likely thank you :)

Edit:
Ah OK that makes perfect sense, I did not think about the C02 produced by the fish dropping the PH of the transport water. It is 100% correct that ammonia is less toxic at low PH and become toxic VERY quickly as PH rises - this article is one I found a while ago on the subject and has a handy chart to show just how this happens.

Thanks again Larry

http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm


I have a follow up question then however - would it be worth it, in a situation where your PH is widely alkaline, to dilute your tank water with RO water, to get the PH somewhere in between the two (and have it the same temp as the tank, and acclimate the bag water to this temp as well) and put the fish into this 'median' water for a bit - or is that just overkill even in a wide PH difference situation?

I ask because I am already planning on aging my water because I notice a 0.5 PH rise between the tap and aged, and this seems to be large enough of a difference that I have seen it recommended to age vs add new water directly with my python - ,maybe un-needed for a 20% change, but for 50%+ it seems advantageous. Or are fish just not nearly as sensitive to PH changes as I have been lead to believe?


Thanks

[Larry Bugg]

I didn't take it as coky. It was clear that you were looking for a reason. Too often we tell people what they should do without explaining why. They should just take our word as "experts" right?

[MarkGSmith]

I think a once only minor change is OK. Constantly fluctuating levels of PH is a train crash. Stable conditions and more water changes than you think are needed is key. I'm no Discus expert so somebody more knowledgable will give a better answer. I used to breed angels and it was a constant fight to get water parameters right for the incomers but Xwife used to just plop....needless to say hers were the happier fish. (*****)

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: I'm no chemist so I'm not gonna try to explain the "WHY" but every shipment I have received from "The Great Hans" has survived & flourished using 'Plop & Drop'. I open the bag & get them out of that shipping water as soon as possible. -0- problems!! I watched Hans at his place & I followed suit. "T"

[Bizarro252]

Just to update my experience for OP, I got my discus and after much lost sleep over the matter I did the following:

Bags were already at proper temp because the Discus pimp knows how to pack his discus :P
Had a pitcher with about 2 cups of tank water and a few drops of prime ready to go, cut the bag open and poured this water in.
Monitored the discus for any signs of stress for 10-15 min
Plopped them into main tank

Hans suggested I add some tank water, likely because my PH is pretty far above his (8.3) however through reading and reading, and getting the same reply from most everyone I think plopping would have been fine as well.

IF YOU ADD ANY WATER FROM YOUR TANK TO THE BAG - Use Prime or some other ammonia detox conditioner, there IS ammonia in those bags and its locked up as ammonium thanks to the PH of the bag dropping as the fish resparates in the water. I measured my bag water that has been diluted by half and it read 0.5ppm, so it was closer to 1ppm without dilution. Adding only higher PH water with no protection would be a terrible idea.

Plop and drop, or if you are like me and at least for the first time had trouble believing that to be the OK way to go, add prime if you are going to add tank water to your bags.