Getting ready for a discus planted tank

[roberthu526]

Hi everyone. Newbie to discus here. I am preparing to get a planted discus community tank and I hope to get some advice from yall.

1st of all, my background: I have been in fish keeping for a couple of years. I had a 55 gallon low-tech for over a year one time with pretty good success. The tank was loaded with fish and the water is always crystal clear with 20% water change every other week. No algae whatsoever. About a little over a year ago I stepped into the saltwater hobby and own two reef tanks currently. One 125 gallon and a 40 breeder with hard and soft corals, and of course, many fish. I consider myself moderately successful in reef keeping at this moment.

So right now I have another 125 gallon freshwater tank in our living room next to the reef tank and I used to keep South American cichlids in it. But since I am a big fan of planted tank and the cichlids kept digging the plants up, I finally had enough of it and brought the fish I have kept for years to an LFS. I have ordered a lot of new plants online, mainly fast growing and easy to care for like water wisteria, ludwigia, Sagittaria, Java fern, etc. I do have pressurized CO2 hooked up and does Seachem Excel regularly to promote best growth. The tank now only has one serpe tetra because well, I can't catch this little guy...

So here is my plan. I have done some research online and read quite a few materials about discus keeping and I realize that planted tank and growing juvenile discus don't really work out. Also planted tank limits the number of discus I can have. So I plan to order 8-10 no smaller than 5", preferably 6" ones at one time(this guarantees they all come from the same source) some time between thanksgiving and Christmas. I will have a week off to take care of the new fish. The goal is to not have to do daily or every other day 50% water change like most of discus keeps do. I am okay with doing twice a week water change but daily is just too much for me. Work, family, other pets all take a lot of time. I am also hoping that with a heavily planted tank with fast growing plants, waste level in the tank won't accumulate too much in 3-4 days..

Our tap water quality is not optimal but I think it's not bad either. PH at 7.4, 40-ish TDS. I do have an RO system for my reef tanks but I prefer not using RO water for my freshwater tank. Because I have CO2 hooked up, the water in the tank is at 6.8-7.0 PH. Also, the tap water PH drops to 7.2 after overnight aeration.

For tank mates, I am think Congo Tetra and Cardinal Tetra(optional) schools. Maybe 12 of them. Some mystery snails to eat the dead plants and some cherry shrimp as clean up crews.

Below are some of the questions and concerns I have since I have never ever kept discus:
1. How big of a quarantine tank do I need for 8-10 discus at the size between 5-6.5 inch? What kind of filtration do I need? Will an Aquaclear 110 HOB suffice?

2. Will adding 8-10 fish into the display tank at the same time cause any issue like a mini-cycle? More importantly, are 8-10 discus too much for a 125-gallon? I know in saltwater it is recommended not to double the fish population in one month to avoid tank crash so I am wondering the same for freshwater. I have never added that many fish into a tank at one time. Not in freshwater, not in saltwater.

3. At what size are discus considered mature? I have watched Al's "How to keep discus" presentation tens of times and I heard him saying" if you want a planted tank, don't go for the 3", 4", or even 5" ones". But I also read in other places saying 5" are considered to be adult size and are less likely to be stunt. The last thing I want is some oddly shaped discus swimming in the tank in our living room... I don't mind spending some extra money to get the big ones, but 6"+ fish with the patterns and colors I want are not easy to find, especially 8-10 or them at the same time... So what is a safe size to purchase for a planted tank?

4. At 5"+, how many do I need to feed these beauties? I can hand feed twice a day during business days and set up a feeder for their lunch. Will that be enough? I have a lot of frozen mysis shrimp in my fish food freezer. Can I feed these to discus? I know freshwater hobbyists usually feed brine shrimp while saltwater usually go for mysis. Can I rotate between mysis and blood worms for discus? Do I need to add other nutrients like selcon or vitamins?

These are questions I can think of at this point. Like I said this project is going to take 6 months or so because I am thinking about buy over a thousand dollars of fish at one time. So any advice or comments are greatly appreciated.

Robert

[discuspaul]

Hi Robert,

Welcome to Simply and and best wishes for your start in the discus-keeping hobby.

In order to answer your questions in the clearest manner possible for me, let us start off by setting a grading approach to starting off with discus in the safest manner possible, with a minimum of risk-taking:

For example, as a newcomer to discus, if you were to start off with a 125 gal bare-bottom tank to house 8-10 adult or near adult discus obtained from a proven source for supplying good quality fish, and do large daily wcs and frequent tank cleansing of all wastes, at least until you gained some familiarity with discus traits & behaviors , then you would likely qualify for a grading of 9 or 10 on a 1 to 10 scale, ten being the safest, least risky approach. Your success rate in this case would be very high.

If you were to place 10 small young juvenile discus of say under 3" obtained from questionable source(s) in the same-sized heavily planted tank which contained a dirt-type or gravel substrate , had other tank-mates with them, and you did only smallish weekly wcs, with a more or less non-existent tank cleansing routine, then your risks would be very high, putting you @ a true '0' on that 1 to 10 scale. No chances for success here.

In your case, you're planning on:

- A heavily planted environment using an unknown substrate;
- Max. twice a week wcs of unknown quantity (even with 5" or larger fish);
- An apparent minimum tank cleansing routine, counting on many plants taking up most if not all of the wastes being produced;
- Starting with a high tech set-up w/daily use of pressurized CO2;
- And immediately adding other tank-mates, i.e. Congo Tetras (questionable compatible discus tank-mates, Cardinals (ok as tank-mates), and Cherry Shrimp (nothing but quick meals for large discus);

Given these factors, I would rate your overall safety factor and your chances for success at not more than 3 or 4 on that 1 to 10 scale.

Hope this gives you an idea where the problems lie in your case.

If you start with 5" near adult fish (hopefully obtained from a fully reliable source for supplying quality fish), you needn't be concerned with potential stunting, - you should be ok there even with only twice weekly wcs, but that's not all the problem of course.
Your plan to keep them in a heavily planted environment using CO2 from the outset, limited, if any, tank cleansing in who knows what type of substrate, and with other tank-mates, does not lend itself to keeping the tank as free as possible from the development of potentially harmful bacteria, and should not at all be expected to produce good water quality & conditions that discus must have, primarily in the early stages of a new discus hobbyist's experience.


Here are a few suggestions that should make your discus program a safe and successful venture, at least amount of risk to the fish:

First, your pH situation seems quite OK as you describe it, and starting off with say, 2 AC 110 filters, or 2 or 3 large sponge filters should be just fine. Feeding large fish only twice daily is also a-ok.

If you obtain 8-10 - 5" discus from a high quality source, all at the same time, and while doing so, also get a seeded sponge filter from that same source to use from the outset, that should be an acceptable approach when adding all the fish to the tank at once - needing only for you to daily monitor for any presence of ammonia, and dealing with same through large wcs whenever necessary. (see added comments below about starting off with a freshly cleaned-up tank.)

- Suggest you start off with only a lightly planted environment using say, pool filter sand ( at least for the first few months until you become familiar with all aspects of discus-keeping).

- Maintain a minimum of twice weekly wcs of at least 50%, while undertaking a substrate vacuuming and good tank cleansing routine (e.g. glass wipe-downs) with each wc.

Again, at least until you gain good experience with discus-keeping, avoid using CO2 and high-tech lighting, and delay adding any tank-mates for now.

- If you fully clean out that 125 gal tank before your discus start, & do the suggested freshly-done light planting in PFS, then you'll have no need for any quarantining of your newly-acquired discus.

I hope you take my suggestions in the spirit intended, i.e. to propose a successful start-up approach to your discus-keeping.

All the best to you.

[discuspaul]

P.S. for Robert,

Here's a bit more info that you may wish to make mental note of, hopefully to further help you make what should be a viable plan for succeeding with your discus-keeping start-up:

D-I-S-C-U-S - 6 CARDINAL RULES FOR NEWBIES TO FOLLOW


First I'd just like to mention once again that discus are hardier than many people think, and are not difficult to keep, so long as one is prepared to accept and adhere to a few key practices that will provide the best chances of success with discus.

This listing is recorded more or less in order of importance:

1) - D - Do your homework well before delving into discus. Read and research all you can beforehand. Googling will certainly help, as well as spending a good deal of time reading the posts and threads on the simplydiscus.com forum, particularly the stickies in the 'Discus Basics for Beginners' section, which will provide you with much of the material you need to digest.

2) - I - Investigate and learn of the best sources to get your discus stock. Find those breeders &/or importers that are long time, well-experienced, responsible, reputable, and known to supply high quality, healthy, and well-shaped discus. Buy your discus from one of these sources in order to insure that you get off on the best footing possible.
This is the single, most important factor in succeeding with discus.
The simplydiscus.com forum has a sponsors section which lists a good number of high quality discus suppliers in North America. Check it out.

3) - S - Set up and plan to follow a strict regular routine of fresh water changes, tank wipe-downs and cleansing, vacuuming of wastes, and regular filter and media cleaning, changes, replacements, and maintenance. Be fully prepared for the kind of commitment it takes to produce and maintain the highest water quality and conditions that you can.

4) - C - Carefully consider the type of tank set up you start with. Make sure the tank size is ample enough to start with 5 or 6 discus. Don't be tempted to begin with a tank of less than 55 or 60 gallons, and don't try to justify going smaller by just getting 1, 2, 3, or 4 discus for cost or other reasons.
Wait till you have sufficient resources to get a proper-sized tank, and the suitable size and number of fish to insure continuing good health and harmonious discus sociability.
Do not start with small, undersized, very juvenile fish which have not yet developed a more mature immune system, are more demanding to raise properly, and much more prone to health problems and other issues. Get fish of at least 3.0" in size, preferably larger.

5) - U - Undertake to start off with a bare bottom tank, unless you're getting fully adult fish and have previous good experience with fish-keeping generally, and maintaining a planted tank in particular. If you must have some decor, limit yourself to a very thin sand substrate layer, and perhaps a piece of driftwood with just a couple of small plants attached, or one or two potted plants.
Once you gain several months' of experience getting to know your discus' traits & behavior, and your discus get larger, then you may proceed to an aqua-scaped environment, to possibly include some other species of compatible discus tank-mates. Feed a varied diet, several times a day, and learn which foods will achieve a nutritious diet, by researching.

6) - S - Simplify. Keep things as simple as you can to start. Don't complicate your start with discus, at least at first, by placing them in a heavily planted environment, using CO2 and a strict fertilization regime. Make sure your tank is fully cycled before adding the fish, and don't be tempted to alter or change the pH of your water, or modify your water conditions and parameters by using chemicals of any kind. No need to use RO water or adopt any other procedures that would tend to complicate what should be a simple start to your discus launch. If you plan on eventually having a community tank set-up, carefully research the species of other fish you'd like to keep with the discus, to insure they are able to withstand the higher discus temp of at least 82 F, and that they are fully compatible with discus.
And do a complete and proper quarantine before adding any such tank-mates to your discus tank.

Follow these 'rules', and there's little doubt you will succeed with discus !

[roberthu526]

Wow, thank you so much Paul, for the detailed information and advice! I truly appreciate!

Right now the tank has about two inches of eco-complete substrate. And to be honest, there was a voice in my mind telling me to save the trouble and just keep that dark coarse bottom, even though I knew it was loaded with waste from the cichlids. But your reply broke it down for me and now I am determined to do a total overhaul and clean this tank up. Before, I wasn't very sure why discus keepers were so obsessed with water changes. I thought if the issue was only nitrate then massive vegetation can absorb it no big deal. But you mentioned that the waste actually promotes bacteria growth and it totally made senseto me. I have heard and seen people with success with pool filter sand so this is what I am going to get. Half an inch like Al said in his presentation. It is not the best substrate for plants but if this brings me harmony between discus and plants, so be it.

Sorry I wasn't clear about the water change amounts. I meant to say 30 gallon a time, twice a week because it is what I currently have for my reef tanks. If this doesn't work out, I will do a back to back 30 gallon water change on the weekend.

On the matter of adding other fish, I was going to add the Cong tetra first so they can keep the tank running with some kind of biological filtration. Is it preferable to add discus first?

I plan to get all my discus from Chicago Discus considering the color variations they have. They are a sponsor of this forum so I assume they are a trusted source. I am not going to start my discus journey with juveniles simply because daily 50-100% water change is impossible for me. If money can buy time then I am all for it. Not to mention that bigger discus usually means better chance of success.

For filtration, I am going to get two Aquaclear 110 HOB and one canister filter. I may end up adding a sump but right now that is not in the plan.

Luckily I planed for six months for this to happen so I have the entire summer to work on my tank and set everything straight. Thank you again for the extensive information! It means a lot to me!

[Ryan925]

Wow, thank you so much Paul, for the detailed information and advice! I truly appreciate!

Right now the tank has about two inches of eco-complete substrate. And to be honest, there was a voice in my mind telling me to save the trouble and just keep that dark coarse bottom, even though I knew it was loaded with waste from the cichlids. But your reply broke it down for me and now I am determined to do a total overhaul and clean this tank up. Before, I wasn't very sure why discus keepers were so obsessed with water changes. I thought if the issue was only nitrate then massive vegetation can absorb it no big deal. But you mentioned that the waste actually promotes bacteria growth and it totally made senseto me. I have heard and seen people with success with pool filter sand so this is what I am going to get. Half an inch like Al said in his presentation. It is not the best substrate for plants but if this brings me harmony between discus and plants, so be it.

Sorry I wasn't clear about the water change amounts. I meant to say 30 gallon a time, twice a week because it is what I currently have for my reef tanks. If this doesn't work out, I will do a back to back 30 gallon water change on the weekend.

On the matter of adding other fish, I was going to add the Cong tetra first so they can keep the tank running with some kind of biological filtration. Is it preferable to add discus first?

I plan to get all my discus from Chicago Discus considering the color variations they have. They are a sponsor of this forum so I assume they are a trusted source. I am not going to start my discus journey with juveniles simply because daily 50-100% water change is impossible for me. If money can buy time then I am all for it. Not to mention that bigger discus usually means better chance of success.

For filtration, I am going to get two Aquaclear 110 HOB and one canister filter. I may end up adding a sump but right now that is not in the plan.

Luckily I planed for six months for this to happen so I have the entire summer to work on my tank and set everything straight. Thank you again for the extensive information! It means a lot to me!

Good call. I removed all my black eco and plants and went with sand.

You could always pot your plants or use types that you can attach to rocks and wood.

Paul actually has a beautiful, pristine planted with white sand so it can be done

[discuspaul]

Robert,

Your response was precisely what I hoped to hear from you.
You definitely won't be sorry you decided to do a complete overhaul of your 125 gal tank - it'll pay ample dividends, even though you may not even be aware of it.

For newbies, I almost always advocate adding the discus first - let them get accustomed to their new surroundings, be relaxed & comfortable before adding any tank-mates, which can be done later after a proper quarantine.

Chicago Discus is regarded as one of the best discus suppliers in the country - you can deal with them in full confidence you'll be getting high quality fish at competitive pricing.

BTW, you can go with just 2 AC 110's if you wish - no need to add a canister - it would be superfluous imo, and possibly a potential source for undesirable poorer water quality if not cleaned up & maintained as regularly as you would the HOB's.

Many plants can do very well in pool filter sand, using not much more than root tab ferts on a low-tech basis, as in one of my tanks below:

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/FTS-Osaka260/CopyofFTS-saka260007.jpg (http://s1105.photobucket.com/user/discuspaul/media/FTS-Osaka260/CopyofFTS-saka260007.jpg.html)

Go for it !

[roberthu526]

Thanks. That's what I am think about too. Drift wood with some java fern attached plus a few big gravels on top of white fine sand do look very nice and natural. I do have white sand in my reef tank and no waste can hide on it.

[roberthu526]

Your tank looks awesome!. May I ask what plants do you recommend for a low tech tank? All I can think of is Jungle val, water wisteria, ludiwigia and java fern.

I am going to get the discus when the tank is totally cleaned and I am not going to put plants in the tank for the first month or so just in case I need to treat the water. I will just save the CO2 for my calcium reactor, lol.

Thank you so much for pointing me to the right direction. It's funny how human brains work, on one side it tells me these fish cost a lot of money so don't take any chances; on the other side it tells me save the trouble and just go with the eco-complete, it might be okay... Thank god I found this forum and all the veterans like you guys!

[discuspaul]

There are many hardy (& not so hardy) plants that can do well in the higher discus temps, and in a low tech environment.

To name a few, besides the 4 you mentioned:

Many varieties of Echinodorous (Swords); Jumbo Grasses; Corkscrew Vals; Sags; Crypts; Anubias; Rotalas; Bacopas; Hygrophilias; and Nymphaeas (Lotuses).

[SGDiscus]

I also just started a planted tank with discus not long ago in Feb 2017. I read through Paul's advice - great stuff!

Thought I share with you a few points from a fellow newbie's perspective when starting a discus tank with plants.

1. Experience with planted tanks/hi-tech tanks. I have had planted tanks with CO2 for 10 years but never had discus. Planted tanks with CO2 increases the level of difficulty of maintaining a healthy tank for discus. It is possible to increase the safety factor if you are still going down that path but the path will take longer. For example, I started my discus tank with plants way back in Jun 2016 but I did not add in the discus until Feb 2017. The reason for this is for me to get the right balance of lighting, CO2 and fert regime for healthy plants with minimal algae. If you are inexperience with hi-tech setup, the potential of suffering from BBA infestation is very high and that will ruin your plants. (although it has been shown that BBA will also infest low-tech planted tanks for those who are inexperience.) The key point here is - don't introduce too many variables at the same time if you want to have discus.

2. In my current tank (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?128155-Tranquillity&p=1255994&viewfull=1#post1255994), I have gone through a deworming regime for my 10 discus. As part of that regime, I have added salt for 48hours to help them adjust. Salt will cause plants to dehydrate as the plants will lose water through osmosis. Plants like crypts and duckweeds did not take the salt very well and they wilted. Plants like amazon swords, anbuias, jungle vals and ferns were not affected. I dose salt at 2 gram per litre. The key point here is - at one point in time, you will need to treat the entire tank for either fluke infestation or fungi etc... you will need to select hardier plants or just be prepared to lose some plants.

3. Put in the discus last. Think of it this way, the plants and the tankmates for discus are being quarantined in your main tank. You want to make sure that these are treated to your best of your ability and dewormed before introducing the discus.

4. Think of planted tank as a tank with planted layout. For example, 80% of my plants are anbuias and ferns that are tied to wood and coconut husks that can be shifted easily without disturbing the substrate (I use inert sand). This allows me to do maintenance work (siphoning the sand for waste etc) and also inspect to crevices for BBA. The key point here is to make sure that you have a planted layout that makes it easy for you to carry out maintenance so that you can maintain pristine water quality for the discus.

5. Sump tank. In the planted tank communities, many of them are of the view that sump tanks will lead to a loss in CO2 for hi-tech setup. In my humble opinion, this is a fine balance between healthy plants and management of wastage. Healthy plants will help to improve water quality (by reducing nitrates) but on the other hand, unhealthy plants will only worse water quality by contributing waste organics through dead/decaying plant matter. But for me a sump tank increases the safety margin for you due to a larger volume of water and contains BB that helps remove ammonia and nitrites. But there are some cons you have to take note of. Beside higher loss of CO2, one would also need to take care of medication regime that could wipe out the BB in the sump. If that happens, then you have to be prepared to do daily water changes until the BB establishes themselves back into the media. I like sump over canisters because I use beefheart which in turns create more organic waste. A sump tank allows me to change out the filter wool more easily than a canister and reduces the organic waste in the water.

6. Use of duck weeds or similar floating plants. I like them because they absorb nitrates readily from the water through their roots and they also provide shade from the overhead lights. They also provide a source of food for the discus.... because my discus loves to nibble at them.

7. Quarantine. This will save you heartache. Even plants need to be quarantine. They should be soaked in either hydrogen peroxide or potassium permangate to minimise fungi/algae spores.

Hope this helps!

[discuspaul]

Your contribution is very worthwhile, SGDiscus. It should be very helpful to some hobbyists wanting to start off with a planted environment.
I particularly like point #4 above, which I feel is very important.
I'm a firm believer that careful planning of your total layout, in the way the plants are arranged, spaces allowed between them, and the spaces allowed between them and the sides and back of the tank, should be undertaken to readily allow you to do a proper substrate vacuuming job around and through all the plantings, so that your tank cleansing can be as thorough as possible.

[SGDiscus]

I thought I should also bring out the point about peppering in discus from the pigeon blood genes. Some people like it and some people don't. Seems like peppering occurs more intensively on a black background or dark substrate. Discus (pigeon blood type) are more likely to also suffer from peppering in a planted tank. But that's based on my personal observations in discus shops around my area.

Personally, I am bothered by peppering in a brightly coloured hybrid discus. Peppering is not an issue in wild discus. Hence I went with wild discus in a tank with plants.

[Ryan925]

I thought I should also bring out the point about peppering in discus from the pigeon blood genes. Some people like it and some people don't. Seems like peppering occurs more intensively on a black background or dark substrate. Discus (pigeon blood type) are more likely to also suffer from peppering in a planted tank. But that's based on my personal observations in discus shops around my area.

Personally, I am bothered by peppering in a brightly coloured hybrid discus. Peppering is not an issue in wild discus. Hence I went with wild discus in a tank with plants.

Peppering is not an issue in domestic non PB strains also

[bluelagoon]

Think of peppering as stress bars on regular discus in a dark tank.We just don't have the bars completely bred out in some stains.If your try to breed the bar out you need to breed fish without peppering to get cleaner looking off spring.

[Ryan925]

Think of peppering as stress bars on regular discus in a dark tank.We just don't have the bars completely bred out in some stains.If your try to breed the bar out you need to breed fish without peppering to get cleaner looking off spring.

+1

And the peppering has been selectively bred to a minimum. These heavily peppered fish seen in lfs locations are typically poor quality fish.

I had my pbs in my tank with dark gravel for some time. I have switched to white sand but the peppering is very very minimal. It can't really be seen more than a foot away from the tank

[roberthu526]

Thank you for sharing! This is very helpful for my setup!

I actually thought about most of the points myself. With the experience I have gained from planted fresh water tank and reef tank, I can't stop thinking about the requirements for discus and something just connects. But everything was just theory in my head. Your post really gave me confidence about my plan. I will arrange my setup and schedules accordingly.

[SGDiscus]

Your contribution is very worthwhile, SGDiscus. It should be very helpful to some hobbyists wanting to start off with a planted environment.
I particularly like point #4 above, which I feel is very important.
I'm a firm believer that careful planning of your total layout, in the way the plants are arranged, spaces allowed between them, and the spaces allowed between them and the sides and back of the tank, should be undertaken to readily allow you to do a proper substrate vacuuming job around and through all the plantings, so that your tank cleansing can be as thorough as possible.


Thank you Paul. I have learnt lots from your posts too.

[discuspaul]

Thanks SG - nice of you to say so.

[Darb]

This is a great post i recently added 6 discus from chicago discus to my planted tank and have been thinking of redoing the substrate with pool filter sand. My question is i currently have the red eco complete substrate and how would i go about switching or would it be best to just add a cap. The plants have been doing well and have made a decent root system in the gravel. The fish seem to be doing well but the dark substrate seems to be making the discus show some darker peppering. All the fish seem to be acting normal and eating well. Last night i had one of them laying eggs on my driftwood while another ate them right away, im not sure if they paired off. The fish are about 4-4.5"

[discuspaul]

Adding a cap will not effectively accomplish what you think it will.
Given the fish are acting normal, doing well, and eating just fine, this would seem to be a good time to switch to what you really want to do, and create a better environment for your discus with pool filter sand. (and lessen your peppering situation while you're at it.)
Just go about it slowly, doing it in stages, as you do your wcs and tank cleansing routine, and it'll be just fine.
As for the pairing off, if they're in the mood and comfortable, they'll continue to do just that.
Go for it.

[Darb]

So just sections at a time then when the water is half full and less particles to float around or would it be better to keep the fish in a bucket for the time being until its done? Tank changes dont freak discus out or does it?
Im sure the sand will be better for the corys also and protect their fins and barbs.

[Ryan925]

So just sections at a time then when the water is half full and less particles to float around or would it be better to keep the fish in a bucket for the time being until its done? Tank changes dont freak discus out or does it?
Im sure the sand will be better for the corys also and protect their fins and barbs.

I switched from black eco to sand. I removed the fish and put them in a 30 gallon tote with heater and air stone. I drained the water then shop vacd out the gravel. It was insane how much crap was in it even though I feel vacd it often. I went from 120# eco to 50# sand. After adding the sand I let the filter run for a couple hours then added fish back in

[Darb]

Awesome and the dish and plants didnt mind much I added fert tabs the last time when i planted so figure the same thing applies after the substrate change.

[Darb]

Also did you notice a difference in your discus with the lighter sand

[Ryan925]

Also did you notice a difference in your discus with the lighter sand

Almost instantly. Not just the PB strains but all of them. Was night and day. Take a look at my tank journal and you will see

[rightwinger59]

I also just started a planted tank with discus not long ago in Feb 2017. I read through Paul's advice - great stuff!

Thought I share with you a few points from a fellow newbie's perspective when starting a discus tank with plants.

1. Experience with planted tanks/hi-tech tanks. I have had planted tanks with CO2 for 10 years but never had discus. Planted tanks with CO2 increases the level of difficulty of maintaining a healthy tank for discus. It is possible to increase the safety factor if you are still going down that path but the path will take longer. For example, I started my discus tank with plants way back in Jun 2016 but I did not add in the discus until Feb 2017. The reason for this is for me to get the right balance of lighting, CO2 and fert regime for healthy plants with minimal algae. If you are inexperience with hi-tech setup, the potential of suffering from BBA infestation is very high and that will ruin your plants. (although it has been shown that BBA will also infest low-tech planted tanks for those who are inexperience.) The key point here is - don't introduce too many variables at the same time if you want to have discus.

2. In my current tank (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?128155-Tranquillity&p=1255994&viewfull=1#post1255994), I have gone through a deworming regime for my 10 discus. As part of that regime, I have added salt for 48hours to help them adjust. Salt will cause plants to dehydrate as the plants will lose water through osmosis. Plants like crypts and duckweeds did not take the salt very well and they wilted. Plants like amazon swords, anbuias, jungle vals and ferns were not affected. I dose salt at 2 gram per litre. The key point here is - at one point in time, you will need to treat the entire tank for either fluke infestation or fungi etc... you will need to select hardier plants or just be prepared to lose some plants.

3. Put in the discus last. Think of it this way, the plants and the tankmates for discus are being quarantined in your main tank. You want to make sure that these are treated to your best of your ability and dewormed before introducing the discus.

4. Think of planted tank as a tank with planted layout. For example, 80% of my plants are anbuias and ferns that are tied to wood and coconut husks that can be shifted easily without disturbing the substrate (I use inert sand). This allows me to do maintenance work (siphoning the sand for waste etc) and also inspect to crevices for BBA. The key point here is to make sure that you have a planted layout that makes it easy for you to carry out maintenance so that you can maintain pristine water quality for the discus.

5. Sump tank. In the planted tank communities, many of them are of the view that sump tanks will lead to a loss in CO2 for hi-tech setup. In my humble opinion, this is a fine balance between healthy plants and management of wastage. Healthy plants will help to improve water quality (by reducing nitrates) but on the other hand, unhealthy plants will only worse water quality by contributing waste organics through dead/decaying plant matter. But for me a sump tank increases the safety margin for you due to a larger volume of water and contains BB that helps remove ammonia and nitrites. But there are some cons you have to take note of. Beside higher loss of CO2, one would also need to take care of medication regime that could wipe out the BB in the sump. If that happens, then you have to be prepared to do daily water changes until the BB establishes themselves back into the media. I like sump over canisters because I use beefheart which in turns create more organic waste. A sump tank allows me to change out the filter wool more easily than a canister and reduces the organic waste in the water.

6. Use of duck weeds or similar floating plants. I like them because they absorb nitrates readily from the water through their roots and they also provide shade from the overhead lights. They also provide a source of food for the discus.... because my discus loves to nibble at them.

7. Quarantine. This will save you heartache. Even plants need to be quarantine. They should be soaked in either hydrogen peroxide or potassium permangate to minimise fungi/algae spores.

Hope this helps!

Thank you very much for this post. I am in a similar position as the OP - I acquired an 80 gallon tank and have sterilized, cleaned, drilled, and am prepping it to be a planted show tank for some discus. I'm not in any rush, as acquiring all the equipment, getting the plumbing done, tank cleaned and prepped, etc. has cost a lot more than anticipated. So if I have to wait a few months before getting the fish, so be it.

Based on your post, it looks like I should get my tank set up, plant it, and then get my CO2 and fertilization levels steady (will be using pressurized CO2 with an in-line atomizer) steady, then start cycling/growing the BB by adding ammonia, then add the fish? For filtration, I'll be running a Fluval FX4 (connected to a UV sterilizer) as well as the Eshopps RS-100 sump (growing Wisteria in the middle compartment) and the CO2 atomizer will be on the return line from the sump.

I also appreciate Paul's advice - I'm jumping into the deep end, I realize, but am willing to take it slow. Any other suggestions? Thanks!

[rightwinger59]

I also just started a planted tank with discus not long ago in Feb 2017. I read through Paul's advice - great stuff!

Thought I share with you a few points from a fellow newbie's perspective when starting a discus tank with plants.

1. Experience with planted tanks/hi-tech tanks. I have had planted tanks with CO2 for 10 years but never had discus. Planted tanks with CO2 increases the level of difficulty of maintaining a healthy tank for discus. It is possible to increase the safety factor if you are still going down that path but the path will take longer. For example, I started my discus tank with plants way back in Jun 2016 but I did not add in the discus until Feb 2017. The reason for this is for me to get the right balance of lighting, CO2 and fert regime for healthy plants with minimal algae. If you are inexperience with hi-tech setup, the potential of suffering from BBA infestation is very high and that will ruin your plants. (although it has been shown that BBA will also infest low-tech planted tanks for those who are inexperience.) The key point here is - don't introduce too many variables at the same time if you want to have discus.

2. In my current tank (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?128155-Tranquillity&p=1255994&viewfull=1#post1255994), I have gone through a deworming regime for my 10 discus. As part of that regime, I have added salt for 48hours to help them adjust. Salt will cause plants to dehydrate as the plants will lose water through osmosis. Plants like crypts and duckweeds did not take the salt very well and they wilted. Plants like amazon swords, anbuias, jungle vals and ferns were not affected. I dose salt at 2 gram per litre. The key point here is - at one point in time, you will need to treat the entire tank for either fluke infestation or fungi etc... you will need to select hardier plants or just be prepared to lose some plants.

3. Put in the discus last. Think of it this way, the plants and the tankmates for discus are being quarantined in your main tank. You want to make sure that these are treated to your best of your ability and dewormed before introducing the discus.

4. Think of planted tank as a tank with planted layout. For example, 80% of my plants are anbuias and ferns that are tied to wood and coconut husks that can be shifted easily without disturbing the substrate (I use inert sand). This allows me to do maintenance work (siphoning the sand for waste etc) and also inspect to crevices for BBA. The key point here is to make sure that you have a planted layout that makes it easy for you to carry out maintenance so that you can maintain pristine water quality for the discus.

5. Sump tank. In the planted tank communities, many of them are of the view that sump tanks will lead to a loss in CO2 for hi-tech setup. In my humble opinion, this is a fine balance between healthy plants and management of wastage. Healthy plants will help to improve water quality (by reducing nitrates) but on the other hand, unhealthy plants will only worse water quality by contributing waste organics through dead/decaying plant matter. But for me a sump tank increases the safety margin for you due to a larger volume of water and contains BB that helps remove ammonia and nitrites. But there are some cons you have to take note of. Beside higher loss of CO2, one would also need to take care of medication regime that could wipe out the BB in the sump. If that happens, then you have to be prepared to do daily water changes until the BB establishes themselves back into the media. I like sump over canisters because I use beefheart which in turns create more organic waste. A sump tank allows me to change out the filter wool more easily than a canister and reduces the organic waste in the water.

6. Use of duck weeds or similar floating plants. I like them because they absorb nitrates readily from the water through their roots and they also provide shade from the overhead lights. They also provide a source of food for the discus.... because my discus loves to nibble at them.

7. Quarantine. This will save you heartache. Even plants need to be quarantine. They should be soaked in either hydrogen peroxide or potassium permangate to minimise fungi/algae spores.

Hope this helps!

This was an extremely helpful post, as were Paul's posts above.

I am in the same position as the OP - looking to set up a planted discus show tank in an 80 gallon tank that I recently acquired. I have spent the last few weeks cleaning the tank and the stand, drilling it, and plumbing and am almost ready to set it up. I will be using pool filter sand as a substrate, and have got some driftwood coming. No plants ordered yet. My filtration will be both a Fluval FX4 (splurged on this because I believe it is going to help me do water changes more smoothly) along with an Eshopps RS-100 sump, which will be growing wisteria in Miracle Mud 2 in the middle compartment (first compartment using 300 micron sock).

Based on your advice, SGDiscus, sounds like I should plan on just playing around with my CO2 and fertilizer levels before starting to introduce fish into the tank. I'm fine with this - willing to spend as much time as needed to get the plants right and the biological filter set up properly before introducing any fish. I plan on using pressurized CO2 and an inline atomizer (installed in the return line from the sump, as that is plumbed 3/4" and the atomizer is 5/8"), so once I get the tank installed it sounds like I should just plan on growing plants for a while, get that all squared away, and then start cycling with ammonia and monitoring my ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels?

Any other thoughts? Thanks!