Wilds and tap water or 'Brazilian' water conditions

[eros111]

Morning all,
I'm not sure if this is a breeding or a keeping discussion - but here goes anyway.

I have been reading in several places now, about the difference in keeping and breeding wild caught Discus. The main interesting fact that I seem to be discovering is this.
A few of the mainly Europoean breeders of wilds are saying that if wilds are imported it is IMPERATIVE that they are kept in very soft acidic water from the very moment they arrive.
One very respected breeder, even going so far as to say that if wilds even once are put in to hard tap water that some of their cells 'coagulate' and in turn they will never be successful breeding fish - or even long-lived fish.
They are also saying that the water must be kept full of tannins. In other words I guess what they are saying, in order to not only breed the fish, but in fact to have fish that live a long time, they have to be kept in water that almost EXACTLY replicates or resembles the water from the Brazilian rivers that they are found in i.e. soft, acidic, humin loaded water.
My question is this:
Has anyone ever done comparisons to see the difference between:
A. The performance of wild caught fish, that have been imported directly from a Brazilian exporter, and have never ever been exposed to normal tap water, and
B. Fish that have been kept in normal tap water after they arrive with the new owner.
My next question would be, if you have been successful with breeding in 'river condition'water, at what age to you introduce the babies to normal tap water conditions - because when they are sold then the prospective buyer might not be prepared to go to the trouble of keeping them in their 'river' water.
My common sense tells me that to keep wild fish in their own water conditions - has to be the best way of having success with them, or am I wrong.

[brewmaster15]

I dont see any problem with keeping wilds in water parameters similar to the waters they came from if thats possible for a keeper. It certainly wont hurt the fish and may make it easier to breed.

However, theres a world of difference between what is scientific fact and what are theories at best, urban legends at worst. The internet is full of information and gives everyone the ability to share their thoughts and ideas....thats a good thing and a bad thing.

My observation is this... there have been countless cases of wilds kept in tap water and bred in tap water.. This alone is cause to question the information posted .

There probably is some fact to the belief that taking wilds from soft acid water to hard higher pH water causes physiological stress on the fish. That makes sense from a biological standpoint...but I don't think we have enough facts to determine what that stress actually does. Its tempting to draw conclusions from observations one makes by keeping and breeding these fish but thats not enough to take an observation,pet theory,or idea and state it as fact. If theres been documented scientific research backing these up....then that says alot.

I also question blanket statements like soft acidic water verses hard alkaline water. Whats acidic to a discus? pH 4.5,5, 6? Those numbers seem so close together but they represent a huge difference in pH. Whats soft water for a discus? Whats too hard? Honestly theres been no research on it....we don't know . You could go by the source water they come from as a starting point... but obviously we know they can adapt to ranges outside of that....whats the limit? Whats the range they can live in comfortably and breed in?

Not trying to derail what others believe, just asking the questions I feel we need answers on before making blanket statements that really don't cover all our discus keeping observations in general.
Al

[eros111]

Yes Al agree with you. Too many theories and not enough scientific proof.
Your reply is very interesting and certainly asks more questions - none of which I can answer with proof.
However, if a breeder has above average success with the way they keep and maybe more importantly, has better than average success in breeding wilds - then it becomes more of just 'urban legend' does it not.
It's all good and well to read ..... so so thinks or so and so says. If a reputable breeder gives you his method of the way he had his success, then I think it worth mentioning to others in the hobby.
In the cash of fish, I would have thought that the environment they are kept in is VITAL to their well-being and longevity and productivity.
Humans can live in polluted air or in areas that are not ideal for their survival - but - would they not live longer and healthier and happier in perfect environments - without all the diseases associated with modern living in modern environments that are so polluted - a whole range of cancers, low fertility, low birth rates, birth deformities/defects, diseases never heard of before etc etc.
I would imagine that the majority of members here do not know or even realize the amount of baby Discus that are destroyed ( kindly euthanized ???)because of deformities or 'not perfect shape'.
I have seen and read ( again urban legend maybe) that in the Asian countries , Discus breeders destroy up to 60 or 70 % of each spawn in order to have good quality fish associated with their names
If their water conditions were perfect maybe it would not be necessary to kill off so many babies in order to have perfect fish reach the market.
Ok so not maybe every spawn will all turn in to AAA graded fish either I agree.
As I said in my first post - is there anybody out there that has proved for themselves the difference in performance of the 2 different water conditions - I would really love to find out.
Regards
Edgar

[brewmaster15]

I would imagine that the majority of members here do not know or even realize the amount of baby Discus that are destroyed ( kindly euthanized ???)because of deformities or 'not perfect shape'.
I have seen and read ( again urban legend maybe) that in the Asian countries , Discus breeders destroy up to 60 or 70 % of each spawn in order to have good quality fish associated with their names
If their water conditions were perfect maybe it would not be necessary to kill off so many babies in order to have perfect fish reach the market.Edgar,
I think you are mistaking the reason why most of those fry are culled. Its not that they are defective in some capacity...in most cases its that the breeders are using selective breeding and culling techniques to modify the fish stock to conform to what the hobby wants as far as shape and colors. It has little to do with the water not being like the waters discus evolved in...however, many fry defects we see in the hobby breeders tanks come from insufficient clean water or water that was too soft and mineral deficient t support the growth of fry in a tank situation.

[brewmaster15]

Additionally you should realize that many wild discus are poorly shaped and not desireable by our standards today. WILD Discus are also graded by collectors and exporters So what you see in the market is the result of culling also and has nothing to do with the water they grew up in.
Al

[Second Hand Pat]

Edgar, can you link any sources? I can see this being said by people who first started breeding wild discus before discus were domesticated.
Pat

[brewmaster15]

Has anyone ever done comparisons to see the difference between:
A. The performance of wild caught fish, that have been imported directly from a Brazilian exporter, and have never ever been exposed to normal tap water, and
B. Fish that have been kept in normal tap water after they arrive with the new owner

Years ago when I bought and sold wilds I initially went out of my way to keep them in soft acidic water. These fish were directly imported to me. Over time I began playing with crossing domestics to wilds. The wild discus did fine in these crosses. When I have fry on a pair...I switched them from Ro water to tap within the first days of attachment. The wild adults did fine in my tap water. Again over time I noted that they would even breed in my tap water. I stopped trying to duplicate the amazon for my wilds years ago and focus instead on stable water, clean water, and good food.

My water is well water....Aged pH 7.6-7.8
Tds 600ppm.

[woopaul5]

This is just from my personal experiences. Since acquiring all my wilds I have kept to soft acidic water (ph of 6 tds 70 gh 2). I have been successful in breeding but let nature take its course and unfortunately all fry was eaten. As Al stated above there are many especially as of recent that have kept wilds at high ph/gh/tds successful to very successful. I think a lot may have to do with species for ex: heckles have been known to come from extremely low ph waters to the point that it's almost sterile. I would believe at this point switching to tap that has an extreme difference would be somewhat harmful. I don't have any experience with heckles so I wouldn't know.

[farebox]

I have two Rio Negro Heckles I got last Dec. now in my 125G tank with 10 Stendker's from Hans. I'm using about 80% straight tap and 20% RO water during an 50% WC every third day and all fish are fine. I can't tell you the water parameters because I don't test my water, just gauge how the fish are doing. Just my input to the discussion.