Long Term Carbon Use???

[jmf3460]

This thread is really a follow up to another thread I started a few weeks ago, the other thread can be seen here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?129238-Culled-my-first-two-fish-others-seem-happier&highlight=

What has taken place is that I had a group of 6 green tefe discus. I purchased them in January of 2015 from John (snookn) down at freshwatertropicals.com in Florida. For over two years, these discus were kept in a tank that ran two HOB filters with carbon filter cartridges. Fast forward to roughly January/February of 2017 and I started to notice some pits on the faces of my discus. Two were affected the most but all the fish had them. I put the entire tank through two extended lengths of metro with no avail. Then I started researching Hole in the head disease more and more extensively and read several articles that relate HLLE disease to a mineral deficiency, mainly calcium. This mineral deficiency can come from an extended length of carbon use, the carbon pulls all the essential minerals out of the water column. I still had my doubts, the debate over the use of carbon in discus tanks is a much argumented topic, plus my fish had thrived for two years with no signes of deficiency.

Fast forward again to roughly May of 2017 an I decided to stop using carbon. One day I just changed my filter cartridges to those that do not contain carbon. I actually got the owner of www.yourfishstuff.com to make me the cartridges without carbon, he actually left a slit in the top that I can put my rooibos tea in now. I had discussed back and forth with Al and he suggested I start adding calcium to my water colum. So I bought some calcium and did just that. At first I didn't notice a difference in how the pits looked, but coincidentally my fish started spawning for the first time ever about 2 weeks after I stopped using carbon and started adding calcium. After about a month I still didn't notice a big change in the pits, I was becoming discouraged until Al told me it would take some time. I ended up culling two fish, the two that were the most badly affected.

I know this is a debated topic, but I wanted to follow up and post my experience here so other people could learn from it or at least become more knowledgable. It has been a little over 2 months since I stopped using carbon and I am starting to notice a big difference. Not only in the color and vividness of my discus, but the pits are going away....slowly but they appear to be healing and filling in. I don't have a lot of pictures of their pits at the worst, mainly because I was ashamed and didn't want to photograph how bad they looked. I wish now that I had photographed more of the pits, for documentation purposes but I do have some pictures, and some more from this morning that shows the pits healing. Hopefully someone can learn from my mistake. I now no longer run carbon on any of my tanks, discus nor community.

here is a picture of one of the fish I ended up culling, his pits were the worse, but he still begged for food and acted normally.
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a male with pits roughly 3 weeks after removing carbon
111446111447

pictures from today, showing the pits filling in.
the female, you can see her pit above the eye
111448111451
here is the male from above with the eggs, his improvement has been the most drastic and noticeable to me, he is my most beautiful male IMO
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another male with healing pits above the eyes
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looking back at my pictures, this actually happened rather quickly. I have pictures from Christmas 2016 and no pits, then by February I was considering culling two, so the progression was I guess really slow for two years, then all of a sudden a really fast change.

I will continue to post healing pictures here. Thanks for reading and hopefully you have been informed of the use of carbon and its potential issues over a long period of time. I am a changed person because of this.

[Ryan925]

So much conflicting info on this topic. Nice to see someone with first hand experience. Thanks for the documentation.

[pitdogg2]

I had a fish that had pits from lack of aquarium care. The friend gave it to me as he was going to kill it. I put in in a 10 tank and twice daily i cleaned the pit with a q tip then put triple antibiotic ointment in the pits. 3 weeks later there was a big improvement. I only did water changes once a week at a 50% rate.

Be worth a try on a fush next time to see if it helps something like this. My vet was the one who recommended the procedure. 3 months later i traded him in all pits were gone
The fish was an oscar.
I strongly dislike oscars but it was a good experiment fish

[Willie]

Can't say if its just carbon or carbon used in aquarium filters. I don't use carbon myself, but I know of many professional discus people with whole house carbon filters that get replaced every six months. They obviously don't run into this problem with HITH. Whole house systems are easily monitored and filters and carbon cartridges are usually changed when back pressure rises.

Most aquarium filters do not get the kind of regular cleaning they need and their carbon cartridges are often rapidly exhausted.

Willie

[jmf3460]

Can't say if its just carbon or carbon used in aquarium filters. I don't use carbon myself, but I know of many professional discus people with whole house carbon filters that get replaced every six months. They obviously don't run into this problem with HITH. Whole house systems are easily monitored and filters and carbon cartridges are usually changed when back pressure rises.

Most aquarium filters do not get the kind of regular cleaning they need and their carbon cartridges are often rapidly exhausted.

Willie

Thanks for the input Willie although I don't know what you are trying to say. Carbon pulls out all the trace elements that discus need in order to grow and avoid deficiencies like these pits. You say you know of many professional discus people with whole house carbon filters, I know of none. not sure how to take your rebuttal

[jmf3460]

and what makes a discus keeper a professional? I would consider most all the homesteaders on here professionals, as well as the moderators and admin. matter of fact I would consider myself a professional discus keeper.

[Hart24601]

There has been some speculation in the salt world with tangs and lateral line erosion that it is really fine particles of carbon that escape the filter or sump and cause damage to the fish even with carbon being well rinsed, similar conceptually to asbestos or diatomaceous earth in humans, those fine particles are sharp microscopically and cause damage which over time manifests itself in a variety of way, none positive. Carbon in RO systems is tightly packed and then the water goes through a nano filter (the RO membrane). It has also been suggested that higher quality carbon does not release as many fine particles so the pressed pelleted carbon may not cause issues in fish.

I personally don't think the carbon pulls out elements that cause the pits, but think it's more along the line of the above.

[Bizarro252]

There has been some speculation in the salt world with tangs and lateral line erosion that it is really fine particles of carbon that escape the filter or sump and cause damage to the fish even with carbon being well rinsed, similar conceptually to asbestos or diatomaceous earth in humans, those fine particles are sharp microscopically and cause damage which over time manifests itself in a variety of way, none positive. Carbon in RO systems is tightly packed and then the water goes through a nano filter (the RO membrane). It has also been suggested that higher quality carbon does not release as many fine particles so the pressed pelleted carbon may not cause issues in fish.

I personally don't think the carbon pulls out elements that cause the pits, but think it's more along the line of the above.

This makes more sense to me. I dont think you can really get ALL the dust out of that stuff.

Wouldn't you be able to see quite a noticeable change to the PH of the water if the carbon was removing calcium? I have read the cautions about carbon and used to run it myself in some of my other tanks but now do not run it anywhere - partially because of the association with HITH and also because I didnt see benefits of running it long term (not to say it doesn't have its place to remove meds, etc)

[Hart24601]

This makes more sense to me. I dont think you can really get ALL the dust out of that stuff.

Wouldn't you be able to see quite a noticeable change to the PH of the water if the carbon was removing calcium? I have read the cautions about carbon and used to run it myself in some of my other tanks but now do not run it anywhere - partially because of the association with HITH and also because I didnt see benefits of running it long term (not to say it doesn't have its place to remove meds, etc)


If activated carbon removed calcium it would instantly be exhausted when putting in a marine system likewise if it absorbed carbonate, sodium or magnesium as those are greatly elevated in saltwater. Not that I am making a case for use or not use of carbon. I find purigen works fantastic in FW and I always have some running, it works similar to carbon but without the dust and seems to last a good deal longer.

[pitdogg2]

If activated carbon removed calcium it would instantly be exhausted when putting in a marine system likewise if it absorbed carbonate, sodium or magnesium as those are greatly elevated in saltwater. Not that I am making a case for use or not use of carbon. I find purigen works fantastic in FW and I always have some running, it works similar to carbon but without the dust and seems to last a good deal longer.

Agree. Use Carbon if you wish or not I do not think carbon had anything to do with the pits.(my opinion only) Maybe the carbon in use was activated differently and leeched something that affected the fish. NOT ALL carbons are activated the same OR made out of the same stuff. Mine has always been coal based. Some others are based out of other media like Coconuts. I believe some are acid washed

[Willie]

The idea that carbon pulls all trace elements out of the water may or may not be true, but that presumes that

1. trace elements in the water are critical to growth, and
2. the lack of trace elements causes pitting.

Discus evolved in super soft water in the Amazon. The definition of soft is the lack of dissolved minerals. So I don't think either 1) or 2) are true. As long as discus get a complete and balanced diet, they should have all the calcium and other minerals they would need. Note that beefheart comes from an animal that produces 10,000+ LB of milk a year, milk that's used to raise human fry. :p I share pitdogg's opinion.

The discus breeder I referenced is Bing Seto, one of the pioneers of discus breeding in the US. He was the first to install a whole house carbon system for his hatchery back in the 80's.

Willie

[CliffsDiscus]

The idea that carbon pulls all trace elements out of the water may or may not be true, but that presumes that

1. trace elements in the water are critical to growth, and
2. the lack of trace elements causes pitting.

Discus evolved in super soft water in the Amazon. The definition of soft is the lack of dissolved minerals. So I don't think either 1) or 2) are true. As long as discus get a complete and balanced diet, they should have all the calcium and other minerals they would need. Note that beefheart comes from an animal that produces 10,000+ LB of milk a year, milk that's used to raise human fry. :p I share pitdogg's opinion.

The discus breeder I referenced is Bing Seto, one of the pioneers of discus breeding in the US. He was the first to install a whole house carbon system for his hatchery back in the 80's.

Willie

HI Willie,
I remember those carbon filters at Bing's Hatchery
they were the size of large oxygen tanks. He actually
ask me if I wanted to buy
them. Some of the LFS also are using these
Calligan treatment filters.

Cliff

[CliffsDiscus]

There is a little confusion most people use carbon in
their aquarium thats when the HITH, but I use carbon
GAC type before the water enters the aquarium. I have no problems no Hole In The Head ever since
1965. Maybe it's my water in San Francisco?

Cliff

[Willie]

Other than talking to Bing and a few other breeders, I have no personal experience with carbon. But I do know that minerals in the water are not necessary for discus.

In addition to my previous comments on discus evolving in ultra soft water in the Amazon, I raised discus in 100% R/O for five years. I didn't start that way, but had to do so when the main water pipe in front of my house was replaced. Immediately, I started losing fish. Lost two breeding pairs and tankfuls of angelfish fry after water changes. Something they add to coat the pipe was killing my fish.

So I got a Merlin R/O system that can fill a 55-gal drum in an hour and basically used 100% R/O for my water changes. I started with R/O Right, but that got really expensive really fast. So I tasted it and R/O Right tasted just like salt. So dumping in salt and taking it out with water changes made no sense to me. I stopped using R/O Right and the fish went right on growing an spawning. No HITH or any other problems. People who have visited my fish room can attest to 6" - 7" discus. After five years, I tested using tap water and found that the fish no longer had a problem. So I'm back to straight tap for my fish.

There's a lot of marketing hype in the pet industry and the idea that discus cannot grow without absorbing minerals from the water is completely nonsense.

Willie

[Ryan925]

There is a little confusion most people use carbon in
their aquarium thats when the HITH, but I use carbon
GAC type before the water enters the aquarium. I have no problems no Hole In The Head ever since
1965. Maybe it's my water in San Francisco?

Cliff

Well cliff of course you have pristine hetch hetche water in the city:)

I've read a lot that it's more the fact that all carbons are not created equal. Poor quality can have a lot of dust or can break down into dust rather quickly with water flow. This is applicable to carbon placed in our aquarium filters.

I'm sure for whole house filtration it's much different. I have to imagine there is much less risk of the carbon break down

[100fuegos]

I have been using a HMA style water filter (fifteen stages by now, one 1 micron pre filter and fourteen CTO) for more than five years now with absolute no ill effect. I change 100 % of the water at least for fry and juveniles, less after one year.

[pitdogg2]

I Agree with Willie. Back in the mid 80's i was raising Schmidt-Fock Discus in straight RO. My pH was 4.5-5.5. My plants (hygro) grew fine my Discus did as well. I used second nature 7acres carbon by the gallon. If any of ypu remember this carbon you'll know it was very fine pebbles. The proper amount had the surface area of 7 acres. (I never tested that)
Point being not once did i have any HITH or pitting problems. My problem was not enough tanks and too many on eggs. Then kids came along and put the kybosch on my disposable income.