Reccuring bacterial infections

[kevin murray]

For about 2 years now I keep getting these bacterial infections. I never made a post because I always assumed I just wasn't cleaning enough. But I need some help. The fish will be healthy for a few months then it starts with a couple fish having clamped gills. Then one fish will get white white patchy areas that look like mildew. Separating the sick fish and treating with Furan 2 has worked well if I catch it soon enough. I use a water barrel for aging and it keeps getting dirty fast. It accumulates this weird slime on the hoses and sides of the holding tank. Before I was cleaning it every month with PP, then wiping everything off. That was not enough so for the past couple months I've been bleaching it every few weeks, then treating with dechlorinator and wipe down and flush out. But the other day after a wc I noticed I got cloudy water right out of the holding tank and I had bleached it less than 2 weeks earlier. And the fish had clamped gills. I bleached it again, the water was crystal clear and the clamped gills went away. So why does the holding tank get dirty so fast? How often should I be cleaning the holding tank? I have well water, I just did a diy bacteria test and it came up negative. I may still have it professionally tested.
2. Symptoms: clamped gills then one fish will get white patchy sores that look like mildew. Excess body slime.
3.medications/ treatments furan 2, 5 day treatment then one day off, then another 5 day treatment. Combined with 1 tbs salt per 10 gallons. In this case I think I added the sick fish back to the main tank too soon, now I have that one along with another in separate qt tanks going through same treatment again.
4. Tank sizes and ages, numbers and sizes of fish: main tank is 75 us gallons with only 1 4" and one 5" fish that seem to be healthy for now. One 6" in 20 gallon qt and one 5" in a 15 gallon qt. (I plan on bringing the number back up to 6 or 7 in the main tank after this is figured out) also 3 rummy nose tetra(main tank) left from a group I bought a few years ago. They seem to be healthy
5. Water change regime: originally %50-60 daily and clean filter sponge daily. Lately since they have been sick I've been %100 and wipe down tank daily and clean filter daily.
6.how long has the tank been running? bare bottom? Substrate?: the tank is bare bottom and stays very clean, has been running for about 4 years.
7. Do you age water, how long and what is the ph swing?
I do, normally 24 hour, swing is about +.2, but with as much water as I've been changing, I have to refill and I only wait and hour or so for the second half of water. But I don't notice any micro bubbles.
8. Water parameters and water source:
Temp: 84
Ph: 8.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate:0
100% well water
Im considering switching back to 100% ro. I used it for my first year of discus and I didn't have these problems.
9. Any new fish or plants added recently?: no
10. Feeding: I feed I cube hikari bloodworms daily before the waterchange. When I had 7 fish I would feed 2 cubes per day.
11. Pictures: I will try to get some pics up tonite or tomorrow of the one fish I have that's recovering from the sores.

When I first got the symptoms I sent pics to kenny of Kennys discus and he suggested bacterial infection and to use furan 2. It worked but they keep getting re infected. This is my 3rd or 4th outbreak. What can I do to avoid this in the future? Switch back to ro? More cleaning?
Sorry for writing a novel, thank you for reading! :)

[DJW]

Do you have pictures of the white patches? Before looking at the water I would want to rule out the possibility these are secondary infections from an external protozoan parasite. Has this problem coincided with additions of new fish. Snails?

I've got well water and since there is never any chlorine in the ageing barrels, I have learned to be careful not to introduce any 'live' water from the tanks on equipment, or my hands, that might contain bacteria or protozoa. The barrels seem to need less frequent cleaning now, about every 6 months. That's one thing you can do although it might not solve the problem as it could be from the well itself, or the pipes. Older wells aren't lined or capped very well.

In my water barrels that jelly-like slime only collects on some types of plastic, the heater cords and air lines. When I look at it in the microscope I don't see anything that looks like bacteria. I think some harmless substance is collecting there, probably from static charge, although it does eventually become a substrate for microbes.

Usually the bacterial tests for well water are only testing for coliform bacteria, which can be harmful to people but not something to worry too much about with fish.

You might also consider shocking the well with bleach, as described here:

http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_m/M115/welcome.html

What I would do if this problem persists (and its not from a parasite) is set up a strong UV sterilizer on the incoming water line at the ageing barrel, with a 1/4 line and a throttling valve so that the rate of flow through the UV can be kept very slow. The flow would take maybe three hours to fill a 50-gallon barrel, with a float valve. This way all the water going in would be sterile, or as sterile as the UV can make it. I thought about doing this but there is so much nitrate I just switched to ro instead.

[kevin murray]

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[kevin murray]

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[kevin murray]

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[kevin murray]

This fish is mostly healed now so it may be hard to see. It has a very good appetite as well. The next fish doesn't show sores buy it is not eating

[kevin murray]

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[kevin murray]

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Here is the top of my holding tank. Should I have this sealed, could that be letting in germs? I havent added any new fish in well over a year. No snails. All tankmates were quarantined for 6 weeks. But most died during the first couple treatments. So its just been the few tetras for the past year.

[kevin murray]

And my well is pretty old. I think from the 50's, so I definitely will look into treating it, and I like the idea of adding uv sterilizer to the incoming water.

[DJW]

I'm not sure what to make of it, sounds like the skin is being irritated, possibly by a parasite, and the white patches would be secondary. I would do a skin scrape and look for flukes. Maybe flukes or another parasite are present in small numbers and when the fish become stressed there is a flare-up. External protozoa are much harder to identify, but could also cause those symptoms.

I just have a loose lid on the barrels to keep out dust and flying bugs. I think the type of bacteria that are attacking the fish are normally in the aquarium environment as opportunists and I wouldn't expect them to be entering the ageing barrel that way.

Not that its related but with well water its a good idea to check it for nitrate.

[kevin murray]

Thanks for taking the time to help DJW! I do have have a scope with a camera. I've never done a skin scrape but I would be willing to try it. I just want to mention that they don't "flash" or scratch on anything at all. If they had a external parasite I would think they would act more itchy but they never scratch. Should I still do a skin scrape? And the well water is 0 nitrates.

[DJW]

The frustrating thing with diagnosis is you are always guessing at possibilities. Since you have a scope, it would help to either find parasites or discount them, allowing you to focus elsewhere. If you do a scrape, look for anything that moves.

I noticed you only mention blood worms for food. If that's all you feed, some variety is better - cover all the nutritional bases.

[LizStreithorst]

It has to be something in your incoming water. Can you swap to community water where you are? Can you get your well water tested? A UV filter won't help unless there's bacteria or parasites in your water. If the outbreaks are due to some heavy metals or chemical contamination, a UV won't help. Until you get the source of the problem figured out going with RO is a good idea. Good luck.

[Phillydubs]

Have you ever treated the entire main tank?

Maybe you really problem is there and moving one fish helps said fish but not the system

[kevin murray]

Ok, I did a skin scrape and I wasn't able to find anything. Im not able to switch to city water but I still have all my stuff for the ro filter so I think I should just switch to that. Then I can rule out water contamination if it continues. I will have it professionally tested since I use the well for drinking.
I have treated the main tank in the past with pp, it worked for a while and came back. I recently treated the main tank with furan 2 but that was right before I added the sick fish back too soon and now I have 2 back in qt. Should I treat the main tank again?
As for food, I used to make beefheart mix but it was so messy and I was afraid it was causing the outbreaks. I will try to go back to alternating with hikari discus bio gold, but they can be picky after being on worms for so long. Is there any other frozen food you would recommend?

[DJW]

I agree switching back to ro is a good idea until you can sort it out. We put a ro filter in the kitchen that has a UV stage, not because I think there is something toxic, the water just tastes bad.

With antibiotics I prefer to treat just the fish that need it in a hospital tank, but in your case half the fish are in qt and the main tank is bare bottom... so whichever works best for you. There can be a setback to the filter and a small spike in ammonia. If the gills look irritated 2 tbsp/10 g salt would help.

Freeze dried blackworms is a good main staple IMO, along with frozen foods. I feed small amounts of frozen beefheart, not very much, it makes a mess if there some left over.

[kevin murray]

Ok thanks, Should add a uv stage or will the ro be enough? I think I will re treat the main tank after I have the water switched over.

[DJW]

Bacteria can't get through an ro membrane that is working right, so you don't need to add UV. Some kitchen ro filters are sold with UV but I thinks that's more of a backup.

[kevin murray]

Ok, thanks again for all the help. I'll report back when I have an update.

[LizStreithorst]

If you live in an area with decent rain fall you could also collect rain water.

[kevin murray]

Update: I still have one fish that has been in qt for a few months now. The orange fish from my original post died shortly after. I couldn't get it to eat. The fish I have in qt now has no visual problems and it eats but not like it should. It refuses pellet food, and when I feed frozen blood worms or freeze dried black worms it eats very slow and leaves food behind. I wonder if it has been treated too many times with the furan 2. (3 to 4 seperate treatments, maybe 30+ days total with that med)
I'm now left with 2 healthy fish in the main tank, Ive still been afraid to get new fish.

[kevin murray]

Since the original post I've been using ro water to rule out water contamination or metals. I no longer have that excess slime build up on my aging tank since I started using it, and I haven't had any new infections. I'm just still dealing with the one fish that was sick before. I had my water tested for nitrate(0.21 mg/l) coliform(not present) and plate count bacteria (52 cfu/ml) all normal. I wonder what other tests I should have done? I need to get off of the ro water, It's producing too much waste water.

[kevin murray]

Also I'm starting to wonder if a lot of this is result of the fish bullying and fighting. And Maybe I need to separate fish sooner. In that case would I qt the bully fish or the fish getting picked on most?

[PillBox_]

I don't know if anyone has a better opinion but I would qt the one getting picked on, If its getting picked on then its likely under stress and removing the bully could entice one of the others to bully.

[LizStreithorst]

I say that you should leave the small one in. In a group of young Discus there is always a low man on the totem pole. If you remove it another fish will become the low man. The smallest ones that remain healthy have a strong will to live. They earn their keep by acting as sacrificial lambs.