Massive Ammonia Spike in Established 1yr+ Aquarium

[undel]

I'm not sure I'm going to be able to get an answer here because there are so many factors going on, but here we go.

Today In introduced some new discus to my aquarium. I have a 165 gallon tank that's been running for a year. It has 12 discus that I've had for a year now. I wanted to max out my school, and added 4 discus. I did this today. Everything seemed great. The little guy that was being beat up in quarantine with the other 3 was suddenly in a large school. Fins perked up. Everything looked great. Perfect happy behavior all around.

4 hours ago I notice all my discus near the top of the tank, faces pointed up. I thought they were looking at the FDBW that had hit the surface, but it was very odd. When I went to do my water change, they were STILL doing it. I checked the airstone, the filters. All running. Then I ran water tests.

My ammonia test was a brilliant dark green. 2ppm at least, maybe the next level up. It's never, ever been green like that, not even during the cycling phase a year ago.

I'm rapidly draining as much of the tank water as I can and put some prime in in the meantime.


I don't know what caused this and I want to avoid it in the future. I am astounded. I do water tests weekly. 0ppm ammonia. And that's how it always is! My tank typically runs:

6.8-7.0ph
0.00 ammonia
0.00 nitrite
.05-.20 nitrate


Today it was 6.6 ph
2ppm ammonia
0.00 nitrite
.05-.20 nitrate



More info:
165 gallon tank
Fluval FX5 cannister filter
Aquatop CF400UV UV cannister filter
Airstone
1 vortech power head. (I run it on low, but during water changes turn it to high to scoot all the debree into an easier position to vacuum.
There are 12 corydoras, 15 cardinal tetras, 8 kuhli loaches, and 2 bristlenose plecos. (I realize that with the discus, the tank is just slightly over max capacity, but I do 30-50% water changes every other day and with the filters thought it would be okay...)




Things that are new:

3 weeks ago I switched out my substrate from a caribsea gravel for plants to pool filter sand. I thought that the bacteria in the filters and in the gravel behind my 3d background would be enough not to swing things. My tests indicated this worked out?
Today I added 4 discus. Not enough to swing the ammonia so rapidly
3 days ago I added the vortech power head. Today halfway through the day (before they started deep breathing) I took the foam liner off of it which had picked up a lot of debree and washed it throughly. It did release a bunch of debree when I took it out. Could this be my culprit?
They are doing construction on the street outside my neighborhood. Could it be in the city water? I ran a test on today's water and it seems fine. That doesn't mean it was fine yesterday.
I waaaaaay overfed beefheart today. I wanted to see the new additions get some mouthfuls. They are 4.5 inchers, and the rest of my discus are 6-7.5 inches. I fed them the beefheart about 9 hours ago, which was 5 hours before they started acting funny. A lot was left in the bottom, but I didn't worry about it because I figured I'd get it with the water change tonight. Could beefheart foul the water that completely? I gave them 4 frozen cubes of it. About half went uneaten.
Both of my filters seem fine and I can't find any dead fish or snails that could be fouling the water. That's not to say that we couldn't have lost power or air got in the filter and it stalled and restarted after the bacteria had died. But I have TWO filters, so I'd think the water couldn't go from 0 to 2ppm ammonia that quickly! I just don't know what to think!



Any red flags jumping out here?

If there's no smoking gun, I guess I'm just going to test my tap water before any water change. It's been so reliable that I took its stability for granted.

[undel]

Update:
I have done a 50% water change.
I put prime in at a 4 caps per 50 gallon rate to neutralize the ammonia.
Ran a test. It's now registering at 1ppm ammonia (which is still way, way too high)

I'll do another water change in 12 hours. I don't want to do a full water change because the PH from my tap is 7.2-7.4, while the ph in my tank is 6.8-7.0 Didn't want to swing the PH and hurt them that way. The prime should keep things neutralized.






Another consideration: I read that chloramine can read as ammonia in another post in the forum. If there was a bunch of that in my tap water, it could also explain my problems. When I ater change, I only put in enough prime to neutralize a typical amount of chemicals, 1 capful per 50 gallons. The fish started acting funky at around 24 hours after their last water change. So maybe the prime wore off or wasn't enough?


I'm kinda hoping it was ammonia. If it was chloramine, it probably killed off my bacteria to boot. There's so many factors!




I'm thinking more and more this is my water supply. Sadly, I can really only age a small amount of water, which I do for my hospital tank in the basement. My main tank is in my living room, 40 feet from any sink and there's just no place to store an aging barrel that's not an eyesore. I realize the benefits of aging water, but it's just not something I can easily do in my home for anything but my basement tanks. I think I'm going to simply have to test my tap water before every water change to make sure it's safe. I grew complacent. :-/

[brewmaster15]

Im guessing that you had a perfect storm. 3 WEEKS ago you removed your substrate. From that point on your tank was having a minicycle.Thats a huge surface area of biological media you removed. Your water changes of 30%-50% everyother day probably barely cut it and if you had not been checking your ammonia from when you removed the substrate to when you did 3 weeks latter you probably had issues starting undetected. Then you added 4 fish significantly increasing the ammonia levels followed by over feeding with beefheart.

The short is you probably want to feed sparsely for a few days,really bump up the water changes and keep an eye on things.Your tank should recover soon enough but watch for a nitrite spike to follow the ammonia. Salt at 1 tablespoon per 10 gals should block its uptake and help heal any ammonia burns on the gills.

hth,
Al

[undel]

Thank you for the reply and advice. An actual ammonia spike to me is preferable to a chloramine spike that has nuked all my bacteria altogether!

Newbie question then: I've always used precycled media before and built my tanks up from small amounts of fish prior to this. Never had a minicycle before that went above .25. Is a 2.0 ammonia swing possible on a 165 gallon with 16 discus, 12 corycats, 8 kuhli loaches, 15 cardinals, and 2 bristlenose when a 50% water change was done 24 hours earlier? I still had about 3 square feet of non-removed gravel behind my 3d background and 2 cannister filters. (though now that you mention it, on Monday I gave the fluval a good cleanout (in aquarium water) and Thursday I did the aquatop.

If it sounds like a plausible swing, seems like I've got my answer. I'll head up to the store today to get some live bacteria to hopefully boost this up quicker. It won't cycle my tank for me, but any help I can get to make this a smoother ride!

[brewmaster15]

I can only give you a best guess here but given all your parameters and all the info you shared, Id say yes...highly possible.

Store bought bacteria may help but most of it is designed to be used by people that dont do water changes.. it stays in the water column and slowly colonizes substrate. Im leary of any product that encourages you not to change your water when theres a biological filtration issue so be sure to read the instructions carefully.

Your best friend here is lots of water changes until the tank stabilizes.


The only other factor that I would think possible is the substrate you have left released anaerobic gasses...that would cause what you saw as well. People do.run into this when removing substrate. I didnt mention this yet as You hadnt said anything about substrate being left.
al

[undel]

I have one of those 3d backgrounds, but I put all my plumbing behind it. So there's 3 inches by 6 feet of substrate left behind the "wall", as pulling it out was too much trouble. Re-mathing, I guess that's only 1.5 square feet of substrate, so... probably not enough. The bulk of the substrate (15 inches x 6 feet) was all removed 3 weeks ago. I also pulled all my fish for 3 days when I did this and did 3x 100% water changes. In retrospect, this may have killed all my bacteria. I really overestimated what as in the filters, and I didn't feed it ammonia during the no-fish-tons-of-new-water-substrate-switch . I was trying to hard to make sure my substrate switch was safe. Looking back, kinda silly.

I was so excited to move my new guys from the quarantine tank to the "big stable" one. Haha.


Roger on the nitrifying bacteria bottle. I didn't consider that it wouldn't immediately adhere to a surface.

[Kyla]

I am planning to bring my basement 180g upstairs and when the change happens I will still be aging it's water in a barrel in a 150gal barrel in the basement and then pumping it up through the floor/wall into my tank. I've heard of other ppl doing this as well, as long as the pump has enough power to push the water vertically.

[undel]

That sounds like an awesome setup!

I tested my water again, and the ammonia is slowly climbing. Theoretically the prime is keeping this in check so it's not toxic for 24 hours, but I think this confirms mini-cycle or anaerobic gasses over my tap water having a single bad day:(

I did another water change to get it down to .5ppm. (which is still too high).

I also put in some live nitrifying bacteria... which is likely a waste of money and will all be sucked out of my aquarium tonight with the water change. :-/ HOwever, the bottle has enough in it for me to do 5 water changes with it and still top off my bacteria, so maybe it'll do something small to help.

I added the recommended salt as well. I don't know if it's the mini cycle or if I moved into the room in a way they didn't like, but everyone spooked this morning when I went to do the second water change. My heckle cross scraped himself up good, so salt is doubly good in this instance.

Thanks again for the advice. It helps to have some clarity with what could be happening.

[bluelagoon]

You could try not feeding your fish for a few days or at least cut way back until things improve.

[Kyla]

Do u have lots of bioballs in your fx5 or other media in the centre of the trays for growing BB on? (Just making sure u have more than just the outside sponge set in the actual filter)

[undel]

Thank you for the advice.

I agree no feeding or extremely light feeding is the way to go.

There are ceramic tubes on both central areas in the fluval that are supposed to house bacteria in the porous surface. Tha aquatop has bio balls along with ceramic media tubes. Aside from 2 100g pouches of purigen, I have no chemical filtration. Would carbon or additional purigen in both filters help the water be more stable while I rebuild my biofilter?

I also gave my aquarium and both filters a good sniff. No sewage smell that me or my husband can detect, so that’s hopefull.

Discus are shedding their slime coats. I changed too much water and they are not enjoying the ph swing. I brought up the 7 5 gallon buckets from the basement and am aging right in my living room. It’s not a permanent solution, and is unsightly. But if I’m going to do 50% a every day while managing this cycle, at least a little bit of that water will be aged now.

[undel]

I think I have a situation.

I say that my tank is normally 6.8-7.0ph.

After my water change it was 7.2ish

It is now 6.4ish

This happened in the span of 8 hours, since my 11AM water change. (it is now 7:40)

1/2 of my fish are on the bottom, one is laying on its side.

I assume the swing is due to ammonia being consumed. Is my best bet now to just swing the whole tank and do a 90% change so that the massive amount of ammonia that was in there is out of there and the acidic swing won't be able to happen as rapidly?

I can also move all (or half) of my discus down to my 72 gallon quarentine tank. The PH there is 7.2, and has been stable for several days, because I was actually testing that one due to the new guys. Maybe long enough for the swing to happen?



I'm afraid I'm going to lose them at this point.

Unless I hear otherwise, I'm moving all of the discus that were laying down to the 72 gallon (7 discus) to recover. I'm beginning to drain the water. I also found a 15 gallon storage tote that I can fill with water to begin aging, bringing my capacity up to 50 gallons. I'm only going to do 25% water change unless it's agreed that 90% is the best plan. I've never had PH issues like this. I'm out of my depth. Any advice appreciated. This is terrible.

[undel]

I performed a 25% water change and moved the 6 worst off fish to my 72 gallon cycled quarentine tank. I replaced the water with 8 hour aged water, as that’s the best I had available. Aging more now. Will test water in 20 minutes

[Jack L]

I am planning to bring my basement 180g upstairs and when the change happens I will still be aging it's water in a barrel in a 150gal barrel in the basement and then pumping it up through the floor/wall into my tank. I've heard of other ppl doing this as well, as long as the pump has enough power to push the water vertically.

i just use a basic sump pump to bring it from my basement.

[Jack L]

I am planning to bring my basement 180g upstairs and when the change happens I will still be aging it's water in a barrel in a 150gal barrel in the basement and then pumping it up through the floor/wall into my tank. I've heard of other ppl doing this as well, as long as the pump has enough power to push the water vertically.

i just use a basic sump pump to bring it from my basement.

[undel]

Water tests showed >.25ppm <.5ppm ammonia after the 25% change
PH went from 6.6 to 7.0

Unless someone can advise me otherwise, I'm going to do another water change in 2 hours to keep getting that ammonia out. The less there is in there, the less the PH will swing. The ammonia is neutralized, so it's the ammonia consumption by bacteria that's causing these crazy ph swings?

Alternatively, this is anaerobic gasses as brewmaster says it may be, and in that case every water change is diluting it, but if it is the gasses, getting it all out of there in one go is best.

Is getting the ammonia out of there in one go best? If so, the solution for either problem is the same. If not, I don't want to do anything too crazy!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Got your pm..
first off take a step back. The ph swing is not a big deal ..its not going to make your fish act as they are.Something else mist be going ...pH 6.6 to 7.2 may stress outbyour fish a bit but will not do what you are seeing. Even the ammonia readings you are seeing wont cause what you are seeing .Is there anything else that you can think of thats changed since their behavior has. Are you sure your tests are accurate as far as water parameters?
al

[undel]

Thank you!

I've rerun the tests multiple times. I'm reasonably confident as to their accuracy. They do not expire until 2019. I'm a bottle-shaker-directions-follower.

The only major thing that's changed (in the last week) is the addition of the 4 discus yesterday, and the vortech power head addition. I did rinse off the part of the power head that goes in the water, but when I pulled it out of the package it had a chemically smell.

Last week on alternating days I did clean my filters out. I did this under the stream of draining aquarium water my python puts out to my laundry sink.

Three weeks ago I switched out all substrate in front of my 3d wall, though the substrate behidn it was left behind. There were 3 complete water changes done during the substrate switch, and my fish were all housed for those 3 days in various other tanks.

There is construction going on close to my house. The PH of my tap water is higher than usual. (7.6 as of last reading, which is higher than this morning by a touch. It's also colder and rained today.) We do not have well water. It's city water.

Winter has arrived and with it many rainstorms and cold temperatures. My python and filter floss are producing more bubbles than normal.




Edit: It is worth noting that I do vaccum behind my wall, as the python can fit back there in most areas. Is it possible I stirred up those gasses you mentioned? I don't smell rotten egg. But if it's something toxic that's not ammonia that's causing the behavior and ammonia spike, I'm ready to do a 90% change to get that stuff out of my tank! I don't want to poison my fish!

Edit 2: they've been spooking a lot today, so I did remove their driftwood (which may have housed more good bacteria... but they were spooking so much and scraping themselves up good.). Could they be sitting on the bottom because they have no cover and are used to it? One fish did completely lay down, but got back up when I walked by.


The fish that were looking rough that i moved downstairs are all swimming around and clamping less.

[undel]

Here are some videos. The worst-off fish were removed to the basement. So these are the guys who are handling this best. As a note, the sand is cleaned. Those black things are the 1/2 cup of substrate I just could not get out of the tank before I added the sand. It's a 30 inch tall tank and I could not reach some of it with my spatula. So I have a very small amount of little black pebbles left in front.


https://youtu.be/SFvANlUCvKI


https://youtu.be/uVwiQuOSao8

[brewmaster15]

ok..that vid helps I think.How long did you Qt the new fish?
al

[undel]

ok..that vid helps I think.How long did you Qt the new fish?
al

12 days. I was bad. They received a course of prazipro for one week, a few days rest, and a single day course of levamisole to deworm everyone. The aggression/bullying issues in the quarantine tank without a large school had me rushing to get them into the main tank. No one showed any signs of illness.


Here is the fish that was laying down (she's the white one):
https://youtu.be/Kp5WLGw1JC4

[undel]

As an update, everyone in the basement tanks are hanging out mid to top water level and seems to be recovering. Everyone in the main tank is alternating between top of tank and bottom of tank. I think they may be sitting on the bottom of the tank because I removed all of their driftwood and they're used to having places to hide when they're upset or I'm doing a water change. There's no driftwood to hide behind, so maybe they're chilling out near the bottom? They get up and move if I walk by, and half of the tank has unclamped.

That one that laid down for a bit scared the heck out of me. She seems fine now.

I'll try and be patient and will do frequent water changes while the ammonia sorts itself out. Thank you so much for the advice so far. This has been a scary day!

[undel]

I'm looking at my fish and wondering if this is no normal slime coat shed. Here are some zoomed in photos. 75% of the fish have this to one degree or another.

113306113307

[undel]

Some of my fish are back to the bottom, leaning to the side. They are huddling together, sometimes on the bottom, sometimes near the top. The white fish that seemed to be bouncing back? I found her on her side again. She got off it when I walked up, but that's not normal. I've never had a fish do that before. I've never seen anything move this fast. 36 hours ago I had a school of healthy discus. Now, nearly all of them are showing pretty severe symptoms and behaviors.

The tank was doing so well. I'd just finished bringing a little guy back to health who had a bad spell in July, and was finally recovered and growing again. I thought it was time to complete my school. I have had 12 of the 16 fish for over a year now. They've each grown so big and beautiful. They're my buddies.

The little guys I got seemed so healthy. But they were being bullies and I thought they were going to kill the smallest one without a big school to spread agression. I thought their health and the proactive anti-parasitics would make adding them safe. I'm such an idiot. There is a reason why everyone recommends the 6-week hero fish method. The first time I added new fish, I didn't just do a 6 week hero fish thing. I did 10 weeks. I knew better than to add these fish so soon. I did it anyway.

I was telling myself that their odd behavior was all due to PH swings and ammonia poisoning, but now that the PH is pretty stable again and my ammonia is down to .25, I don't think I can console myself with that anymore. They aren't getting better, they're getting worse. There's some pathogen in my tank, and it is hitting my fish hard and fast. I don't know what to do. I think I'm going to lose them.

[undel]

I'm thinking about doing a PP dip according to this article: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?43056-potassium-permanganate-3-min-dip Is this advised? I'm trying to figure out how to treat these guys while they're still treatable.

At the very least I'm going to get some PP on-hand and make up a stock solution so I have it for a rainy day.

[brewmaster15]

Im guessing here that the issues with your water quality stressed the fish out and lowered their immune system then what happened is the new guys brought something in. It fits with how fast they crashed.

Pp will set your biofilter back more than it is and may not even help here as it only treats external issues..

What you see is common when stock is mixed and qts skipped or insufficient. Often the fish will fight it off on their own....yours sound like they are not. Many people use furan2 or kanamycin in cases like this...the down side is your biofilter will also take a hit and you really need to max out your waterchanges.

If you can find a way to do100% day or even 50% twice a day while they are sick it would help I am sure.

Al

[undel]

Thank you for the advice.

Is this something where I need to wipe it out in one go, or can I pick and choose who to treat?

I could return everyone to the main tank and treat the main tank. (If they survive, that's ideally where I want to everyone to end up). But as you said, the biofilter.

Alternatively, I could treat those with the worst of it with furan-2 in the 72 gallon and 29 gallon tanks, trash those biofilters, and just do water changes on the main tank to get the water cleared up. However, everyone would need to be returned to the main tank, which will not have been treated, and will contain fish that were not treated. But maybe the main tank will be more stable biofilterwise, and the discus will be in a better place health-wise?

[brewmaster15]

You would want to treat all fish or you risk a relapse.. I'm sorry. I would treat in the main tank at this point and wc wc wc,

al

[bluelagoon]

Just keep in mind when you have ammonia readings in a low ph and when new water is added making it higher in PH than 7,the ammonia left in the tank will become more toxic than it was.That's another reason aging large amounts of water for large changes is the way to go .

[undel]

I'm doing a 50% water change and preparing to add meds as we speak. I opted to go with Kanaplex, as I had 4 tubes of it on-hand, which is enough to get me by until I can have some more shipped to me. The tube says that it won't impact the biofilter, but I'll stay skeptical on that front.

I think an aging barrel makes a lot of sense. Unfortunately my setup isn't practical for it. I can live with the plastic totes and the 7 5-gallon buckets in my living room for a month or three while I sort out this cycle, but longterm there's not a good way for me to age my water without hauling it up the stairs myself or planting the barrel in the middle of my living room or dining room, right on top of our not-liquid-friendly-floors. I love where we have the tank. I walk by it 20 times a day or more, and so does my husband. It's in a place where guests can admire and feed our little guys too. Basement's probably more practical for a tank. I'm envious of the multi-floor-piping it Kyla has going on though!

Hopefully my finned friends can be saved. I don't get too broken up when a tetra or a cory goes. It's not a specific fish to me. It's "one of the tetras" or "one of the snails". But my discus are different. I was sobbing last night. Each of the discus has its own personality. I can tell them all apart. They follow me around the tank (probably just for food, but it's endearing) Some of them are pushy, some are shy. The smallest one (pre-addition of the new fish) was also the most vicious, and it was so cute to watch him rule the tank and not take any shenanigans from the bigger fish. My red turq is a ham. He'll follow me anytime I walk by, and he's so food motivated he'll put himself at all angle to retrieve any stray scrap, despite being my largest and least coordinated fish.

Thank you all for your knowledge and expertise. I feel much better having a plan of action.

[Kyla]

I am envious of your upstairs tank! I can't wait to move my fish to the main floor so I will actually get to see them all day... The system I have is pretty simple, it is currently being used for the tank in my basement through a wall, but will be set up to pump water through the ceiling once I reinforce the floor and bring the tank upstairs.

I have a hanging ceiling in the basement and will have to get some holes drilled to bring the hose up through the wall but Once it is set up I expect it to run smoothly (fingers crossed). When I am ready to fill the tank I just open the ball valve on the aging barrel, plug in the pump to the white remote on/off switch in the pic (super cheap - highly recommended!!!), lay the hose in the fish tank and press "on" from my little remote control and drink my coffee while the tank fills. There's gotta be a way you can have your water change and your coffee too!! I can't imagine going back to buckets at this point, but it took a while to get here. I went to a plumbing store to get a pump and prob paid way too much but I'm happy with my pump which hooks right up to the water tank. There are way cheaper options out there.

113310

[undel]

Everyone is in the main tank. Before I pulled him (at which point he brightened up) my snakeskin was black with these spiderweb looking sheets of slimecoat on his side. He looks like the trademark discus plague photos (though I realize this is probably not "the plague", but visually he looked just like that) Here he is after he brightened up. His eyes are VERY cloudy. He's currently the worst looking in my tank, though the one with the saddest behavior is the white pigeon. I'm really worried about these guys.

113311


So I did some reading on the forums, and apparently Kanaplex's recommended dose is far under what is recommended for Kanamyacin


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?96518-popeye-and-Kanaplex

seachem says 180mg to 5 gallon, literature gives 190-380 mg/gallon

I had enough Kanaplex onhand to get it to 90mg/gallon, which is still not high enough. I've ordered Kanamyacin in bulk from Angel's Plus with overnight shipping. Hopefully I can get that dosage up to the correct amount. For now they're in 90mg/1 gallon concentration. Purigen has been removed.

I also read that it can be used alongside Furan-2 safely. I have enough Furan-2 to do a day's dose of because the packets are actually the correct dosage and not 1/5 of what they should have been like Kanaplex. I'm not going to mix meds until I read some more. I want to see how they react to just the Kanamyacin for 24 hours for the sake of their kidneys unless I hear otherwise that I should/should not mix those meds.

[undel]

A week later and I've lost 2 7-inch discus and a 6 inch discus that I've owned for a year now. Pretty bummed. I seemed to be getting a handle on the situation, but there's been a relapse and I'm unsure of how to proceed.

To review, I am 100% convinced that Al was right and this is a cycling aquarium. 3 weeks before this happened I switched out my substrated, then did 3 back to back 100% water changes before re-adding the fish. I assumed that the bacteria in my two canister filters would be enough to keep the tank cycled, grossly underestimating how important the bacteria in the substrate was. Thinking back, a week after the substrate switch, I stated having algae on my glass, which has never been a problem before. (likely due to the algae feeding on excess ammonia). I wondered why my fish weren't brightening as much as I thought they would. Against the black substrate they were dark, but I thought I would see some color change with white substrate! I didn't... but it was because my fish were in bad water quality for 3 weeks! I actually had darkening as a warning sign, but ignored it because I figured my fish were just used to being dark. Then the tank crashed fully while I added additional fish.

Everyone in the tank got clamped fins, hung out near the top, and had a white film across their whole bodies. To deal with both the bacterial infections and the bad water quality, I've been:

Changing 70% of the water every 24 hours, 60 gallons of which I am able to replace with aged water.
Dosing with kanaplex and furan-2.
Using double-dose of Prime to keep ammonia in check until the next water change. Ammonia lowers to 0.25ppm after a 70% change, and rises to 1.0ppm 24 hours later.
There is no beneficial bacteria left due to medication. I know this because nitrites are 0 and nitrates are not any higher than in tap.



On day 4 of this treatment, I lost one fish, but everyone else seemed to be bouncing back. The film was gone on most of them, they were back in the middle of the water column, and most fins were held high.
On day 5, the film reappeared, so I decided to do a second back-to-back 5 day treatment. I lost another fish.
I'm now on day 7 of treating with kanaplex and furan-2 to no avail. I had to euthanize a fish with clove oil that was already halfway over the rainbow bridge and a danger to the tank if he passed while I was asleep. Most of my fish have clamped fins, they are all hanging out near the top, and all of them have a white film on them to one degree or another.







I'm unsure of how to proceed. I think the medication i weakening the fish, and I'm not sure it's working on the bacteria anymore, as the slime coat whitening has reappeared. I'm also not sure how well the Prime is combatting the ammonia, since the fish still seem so weak. I have some thoughts, but I'm not sure what the best idea is.

I could finish off the second treatment, or stop now and concentrate on water quality. (I was going to do 10 days straight, which is 2 5-day back-to-back treatments).

Option 1: Stop medication, work on cycle:
If I stop now, I can begin trying to make the water quality better by turning on my UV in my cannister filter, using purigen, and re-establishing my bacterial colonies with some seed sponges. I could try and treat the fish with salt dips to keep their outsides clean, and hope the better water cleans their insides. In addition, I can spread out the 13 remaining discus across 3 tanks, meaning the ammonia in any one tank won't climb as high. My 72 gallon is still cycled, but not cycled enough to hold everyone. Still, it could give 5 fish a good shot. The risk here is that without medication, the fish could be overtaken, and that the main tank isn't going to cycle overnight. Still, less bioload and UV should make the water nicer.

Option 2: Medicate and spread out:
Because dosing the main tank with products from LFS was getting pricy, I got some bulk medication from angels plus. I now have 100g of Nitrofurazone (active ingredient in furan-2), and 100g of kanamycin. I could spread my fish out into the 3 tanks, and medicate them all. This will allow me to put the worst fish together in the hospital tank, the medium fish in my 72 gallon, and my healthiest fish remaining in the 165. There will be less bioload per tank, and even though I'll be killing the fully cycled bacteria in the 72 gallon, I do have enough meds to treat all 3 tanks simultaneously. I can then recombine the fish to the main tank as they recover.

I'm open to any recommendations. My fish are in a bad place. At this point I've resigned myself to the possibility that I may lose every discus. (This is not being dramatic. Literally all the fish have the film and hang out near the top. The 4 new additions still have high fins, but everyone else is clamped) I've kept discus for a mere year, but have had planted community freshwater tanks for multiple years before that. I've never had a tank crash before. This is heartbreaking.

[undel]

I'm going to stop meds tonight and see what non-medicated clean water does. Their health is still deteriorating in the meds. I'm getting 70% of the water out, turning on UV, adding purigen, and adding 1tbsp salt per 10 gallons. Temp is currently at 82.

I figure that if clean water is what's needed, I'm giving it to them and I'll be able to watch them bounce back. If it's not what's needed, it's giving the fish a break from their 7 days of kanaplex and furan-2 so that I can start another round of meds in 5 days while hopefully sparing their poor kidneys. :-/

Tomorrow morning I'll do a salt dip and see how that goes. I do feel that there's something nasty in the slime coats of my fish.

After tomorrow's 70% water change, I'll see about getting some bottled bacteria and seed sponges going. If I can get the slime coats looking good and the fish swimming straight, I'll raise temps to 85. But I don't expect to be able to do that unless something magical happens.



If anyone sees a problem with this plan or has an recommendation for what to do here, I'm all ears.

[Jack L]

sorry for you troubles. couple general thoughts
1. changing more than one variable makes it even hardy to sort things out
2. i have killed fish because of doing WC and not accounting for pH siwngs
3. i have killed fish because of over cleaning my system and have and cycle on and "established" tank
3.5. i've killed fish because i though tank was cycled
4. i'm currently killing fish for...well, i'm not sure, at the moment i blame my DIY ferts.

just keep good notes, and try to learn from your mistakes.

if i were in your spot, i'd prolly be treating the spike with Safe, aging water for WC, and stopping the meds. i've presonally never got far with meds, except with treating ICH.

[undel]

Would you say no salt dips tomorrow then? Just see what frequent water changes with spike-neutralized by Prime and as much aged water as possible?

[Jack L]

Would you say no salt dips tomorrow then? Just see what frequent water changes with spike-neutralized by Prime and as much aged water as possible?

i'd only do safe if i couldn't replace water with aged water and only if my tests showed me that was their was an issue with ammonia nitrite or nitrate.

[Kyla]

If you can lower the water level in the tank and increase the aged wc % to 100 that might help? Do you need to age the water a full 24hrs to stabilize the ph? If you could get away with 12hrs aging you could maybe do 2 100% wc/day... I can't remember what type of filters you have but more surface area agitation from water splashing into the tank with a lowered water level might help with their breathing? But having less water will also increase the speed of ammonia build up.... This is an awful situation, I wish I had more to suggest. I would be concerned about stopping any treatment halfway through, I think most ppl would agree to ultimately finish treatment. A lowered water level will also lessen the amount of meds needed. But if u do increase the frequency of wc u would use more meds because u need to replace them wth every wc. I believe that if u treat the fish in a bare tank the meds will work better. And one last caution is where the seeded sponge would be coming from (eg could it bring in more pathogens while the discus are in a weakened state)?

[Jack L]

i'd only do safe if i couldn't replace water with aged water and only if my tests showed me that was their was an issue with ammonia nitrite or nitrate.

i reread your thread


one more general comment. if i decided to do a med treatment, i finish it, even if i didn't think it was doing good because stopping midstream is asking for more trouble and a waste of what i already dosed.


one more comment, and its not mine. its in a book i read. it pretty much recommended not even owning meds unless you want to spend money to have biologists examine samples to see what you are needing to treat with, the kitchen sink method does more harm than good.


i don't know about salt dip, never did one, so can't say. but i will say that i know stressing the fish can kill them and that sounds like more stress to them.

[undel]

I think stopping the treatment now will be okay, because technically I finished the treatment? It was a 5-day treatment. I went in for 7 days continuously, thinking to do 2 back-to-back treatments, but a full treatment (and then some!) has passed with no breaks. :)

I'll hold on the salt dip then and see how they do with just the clean water. I'm adding a double dose of prime to it because my tank has no cycle at all going. Ammonia builds quickly, from 0.25ppm to 1.0ppm in 24 hours.

When I do the 70% water change, I'm able to have 60 gallons of that be aged. 70% of 165 gallons is 115 gallons. 60 of which is aged, 55 of which is not, but I do use filter floss in my python to help it degas on its way out. Although... I do have a 72 gallon tank downstairs that's fully cycled... I could do a daily 30% change on that, and steal the water for the upstairs tank... giving me 20 more gallons a day. And the hospital tank is empty, and I'll bet I could age 29 gallons of water in that daily with a 100% change too, which could bring me up to the full amount needed. Hmmmmm.... So many buckets, haha. My arms are developing muscles from the past week, no joke!

Thank you both so much for your recommendations. I'll see how water-water-water works on the little guys, and try and jump start the cycle tomorrow with some seeded media from the 72 gallon.

[Jack L]

I think stopping the treatment now will be okay, because technically I finished the treatment? It was a 5-day treatment. I went in for 7 days continuously, thinking to do 2 back-to-back treatments, but a full treatment (and then some!) has passed with no breaks. :)

I'll hold on the salt dip then and see how they do with just the clean water. I'm adding a double dose of prime to it because my tank has no cycle at all going. Ammonia builds quickly, from 0.25ppm to 1.0ppm in 24 hours.

When I do the 70% water change, I'm able to have 60 gallons of that be aged. 70% of 165 gallons is 115 gallons. 60 of which is aged, 55 of which is not, but I do use filter floss in my python to help it degas on its way out. Although... I do have a 72 gallon tank downstairs that's fully cycled... I could do a daily 30% change on that, and steal the water for the upstairs tank... giving me 20 more gallons a day. And the hospital tank is empty, and I'll bet I could age 29 gallons of water in that daily with a 100% change too, which could bring me up to the full amount needed. Hmmmmm.... So many buckets, haha. My arms are developing muscles from the past week, no joke!

Thank you both so much for your recommendations. I'll see how water-water-water works on the little guys, and try and jump start the cycle tomorrow with some seeded media from the 72 gallon.

i just got water barrels off of craigslist and i use a sump pump and garden hose to move it to the display tank.

[undel]

The past 3 water changes have been 70% @every 12 hours with as much aged water as I can manage. Double dose of prime. Two fish moved to 72 gallon downstairs to help lessen bioload. 11 discus remain in main tank.

The fish behavior has improved. All but one fish has unclamped its fins, and all but two fish are interested in eating. They are not clumping anymore and are using the full water column. Big improvement!

However, I am concerned about the film that remains on their sides. Their attitude Here is what I'm seeing:

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Those images are depressing. :-/

I am content to continue with clean water if there's a possibility that clean water and the fish's own immune system may clear this up. But if this looks like something that will not clear up without treatment then I'm going backwards by trying to re-establish a biological filter right now, if I need to medicate the tank in the future.

I guess my current feeling is to order a microscope so I have it on hand. Then in 3 days, take a look at the fish (with or without microscope) and see if the slime coat situation is improving. If it looks the same, I'm going to try a scrape so that if I medicate, I'm not medicating blind! Now to find out what the cheapest microscope I can get that will do what I need is. :-/




Do you think there's a possibility the fish are going to recover from this with just water changes?

[undel]

I've set up a proper aging barrel in my laundry room with a 50 foot hose, haha. Hopefully water changes will be easier now. Lugging all those buckets was a nightmare!

I'm beginning to suspect they have velvet, but I'll be able to confirm tomorrow when my microscope arrives. The blue discus in particular shows a slightly gold look to the parts of this slime coat that are lifting off. I'm hoping it's not velvet, because I just started to re-establish my poor biofilter, haha. Everyone except one of my fish is still acting very perky despite their slime coats, so they're definitely happy to have that medicine out of the water and the big 12 hour water changes.

[Kyla]

I can't recall, but had you recently added new, unquarantined fish to the tank? I had a similar problem with fish in QT once, and it was chilodonella (best guess). It took forever to eradicate. 2 of my friends also got it from the same shipment of discus. We kept reinfecting our guys with the nets/hoses/buckets - had to start sterilizing everything with bleach between maintenance and finally got rid of it.

[undel]

Kyla, that sounds frustrating! I hope that I don't have chilodonella. I'm glad yours got cleared up!

Well, this isn't as enlightening as I thought it might be. I was looking for velvet and columnaris or anything that was moving too much. Unless this looks like oodinium or something recognizable, I'm at a loss. Does slime coat normally look like this? There's a lot of clumps of texture.

https://youtu.be/niuaDkw3p2s

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I'll be reposting to the medical section at this point. While this was originally a water quality issue, since we're now going into flora and fauna, its' best that I post there.



I did have fun looking at the detritus worms in my filter gunk! Wiggly little things!

[Kyla]

could it be chilodonella? It moved kinda like the vids of chilodonella online.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CRnA37tZ7uI

But I've got no idea which vids r legit chilodonella. Once I brought a sick discus to a professor (specializing in parasites) at our local university and he dissected it for me to determine whether there were any parasites. It had a bunch of worms in its gut but that was all, and he said that was a normal/healthy gutload of worms for its size. You might be able to get in touch with someone like that in your area for a more difinitive answer?