Discus still skittish after first month

[ncognto]

Hello all,

I have been keeping fish fresh and salt for about 25 years but this is my first serious discus tank. I have had a few discus off and on in planted tanks that did okay but I wanted to do it right this time.

The tank is a 55 gallon that was an established planted tank for over a year. I pulled everything out of it shortly before getting the discus and went barebottom except for a piece of driftwood and two potted plants. I got 8 2.5 inch Brilliant Blues from Hans and he has been great with all my questions so far.

Apparently between pulling the sand,cleaning everything a bit too well and heavy feedings I caused a mini cycle in the tank. Nitrites never peaked over .5 and have gone to zero the past few days so I think that is over with. I do have 1.0ppm ammonia and 10ppm nitrates coming out of the tap so double dose Prime during each daily 60% water change. Water change is straight from the tap with a python and I am not really set up to age the water. The discus have always looked good with good color and fins open. They always eat well and have grown a fair bit in the first month...the largest has probably gained a good inch. Feeding is Hans mix plus tetra and Sera bits early morning and late afternoon with more bits and fdbw cubes later evening.

The problem is they all run and hide under the driftwood whenever I get close to the tank. They will come out if I sit for a while but any movement causes them to panic and dash for the driftwood and hide under it. Occassionally they panic enough to bounce all over the tank. The tank is in an upstairs bedroom that gets very little traffic in it but a bit going by it and it is at the top of the steps so I am concerned they may be stressed by bumps and thumps etc. I do the water change around 6pm after the large afternoon meal but dont spend a lot of time with them other than that and feedings. They do come out and seem much more relaxed during the lights out period mid-afternoon. I have a beamsworks led on the tank and lighting schedule is on at 5:30am off at 11am then back on at 3pm until 10pm. I have tried other dimmer lights and it does not seem to make much difference. I have paper taped to the bottom and back of the tank...didnt want to drain it to paint it when I was prepping it for the discus.

I have thought about pulling the driftwood and possibly the plants but with the minicycle I didnt want to possibly pull BB out and wasnt sure if that wouldnt stress them out further. I guess I am just looking for input and suggestions on making them more relaxed. Due to my schedule I have limited time to spend in front of the tank and with four other tanks in the house I dont really have the option of relocating the tank to a more frequently used area.

[ncognto]

Pics of the fish:


When I first got them:

113315

This past weekend:

113316

Usually what I see after I walk into the room:

113317

[rickmiles]

Take out the drift wood and plant until they feel safe and get used to you. Also if you want,
what I do sometimes is when feeding put the food and fingers in the water and eventually they will eat out of your hand.

[Ryan925]

Take out the drift wood and plant until they feel safe and get used to you. Also if you want,
what I do sometimes is when feeding put the food and fingers in the water and eventually they will eat out of your hand.

+1. Also is the bottom of the tank painted ? Doesn't look like it is in the picture. If they can see their reflection that can make them skittish as well

[ncognto]

I was worried removing their only hiding place might make them more nervous rather than help but its worth a try. Also worried about cross contamination if/when I move the plants back in from one of the other tanks.

I taped some printer paper to the bottom of the tank...did not get around to painting it before I put the fish in. I guess I could house them in a 29g I have in the garage and break the tank down to paint it if you dont think the paper is cutting it. Is 24 hours long enough drying time to not have to worry about fumes? Would most likely use krylon.

[Ryan925]

I was worried removing their only hiding place might make them more nervous rather than help but its worth a try. Also worried about cross contamination if/when I move the plants back in from one of the other tanks.

I taped some printer paper to the bottom of the tank...did not get around to painting it before I put the fish in. I guess I could house them in a 29g I have in the garage and break the tank down to paint it if you dont think the paper is cutting it. Is 24 hours long enough drying time to not have to worry about fumes? Would most likely use krylon.

I would think paper would be ok and you would be painting the outside if you did

If you removed the wood you could always just leave the plants if you are concerned about them

[ncognto]

Its a small room was my concern for fumes.

[Phillydubs]

I am worried about the amonia and the water params... what is your PH? Is there a big swing in the tap PH and your tank readings after 24 hrs?

You have no way to age the tank...

Also why the lights off and on with such a weird schedule? I would keep it constant. Maybe the blasting of the light is bothering them. When you are around them you need to be deliberate and not tip toe.

[ncognto]

I am slow but not tiptoe-ing. It doesnt take much and they are straight under the driftwood.

As far as the water parameters...out of the tap the ph is 7-ish and after 24 hrs in tank its about 6.6. Hans said the swing from high to lower shouldnt bother them its the other way around that I would need to be worried about. Ammonia out of the tap untreated is right at 1.0ppm nitrates at 10ppm and after 24 hrs( I test right before the water change) ammonia shows zero-ish nitrates at 20+ppm. Not sure what to do on the nitrates without getting serious with RODI and I was trying to stay basic. Test kit is API so take that with a grain of salt but fish look great other than panicking at the drop of a hat. No stress bars on any of them even when they run and hide.

[ncognto]

Oh and as far as the light schedule I was trying to keep algae to a minimum...need them up at 5:30 to feed at 6am and want to check on them before bedtime at 10pm. Figured 16.5 hrs of light was a bit excessive and was trying to give it a break when nobody was home.

[Phillydubs]

And you cant get a 25-30 gallon garbage can and age some water?

I guess you could remove the driftwood so their security blanket is gone... Let them associate you with food. Be loud, knock on the tank as the other guy said, try to hand feed them so they think human = food , me like humans!!!

[Ryan925]

Its a small room was my concern for fumes.

My fault I missed a bit of info.on your original post. I see that you mentioned the paper. I think that's fine.

As Phil noted potentially the water is the issue. Your ammonia reading is an indication of chloramine in your tap. I would be sure that your prime dosing is enough to neutralize that amount. If your tap has 10 ppm nitrate what is your nitrate reading between wcs ?

[ncognto]

I am dosing a capful of prime right before adding water and another cap halfway through fill-up. Nitrates are getting in the 20-30 range on the API test after starting at 10ppm from the tap.

[Phillydubs]

Those readings are too high for my taste... You will need to figure out how to get better levels this could be causing their skiddish nature

[ncognto]

Short of RODI (not really an option right now) not sure how to lower the nitrates. The ammonia shouldnt be an issue due to the Prime on a daily basis was my understanding.

[Phillydubs]

And no way to age.... even 50%... cant stash a garbage can heater and pump near the tank?

[ncognto]

Would complicate things a fair bit but I could. But will ageing help with the nitrates and ammonia?

[Ryan925]

Would complicate things a fair bit but I could. But will ageing help with the nitrates and ammonia?

Unfortunately aging will not help with chloramine or nitrate

[ncognto]

I didnt think it would thats why I didnt think ageing my water would change the issue.

[Ryan925]

I didnt think it would thats why I didnt think ageing my water would change the issue.

I think what Phil was getting at is that possible ph swing is stressing them also. Have you done am aged water test. Some of us are fortunate to not have to age but others are forced to due to ph swing

[ncognto]

I havent but can tonight. I do know its a tad higher than 7 coming out and ends up around 6.6 the next day before the water change.

[ncognto]

So I pulled the wood out when I got home and that already seems to have made a big difference, They are still a little shy and I did have one showing stress bars and doing the up and down the glass thing on the back glass for a while. Now they seem to have settled down and seem a lot more relaxed after figuring out there isnt any place to hide. They also arent panicking when I come in the room now.

I have left the two plants for now and they huddle a bit around the one where the wood was when the light in the room first goes on but come out shortly afterwards. I left a glass of tap water out for testing tomorrow but just did my daily water change and dont see any signs of distress. They dont usually show much change good or bad after the water change though.

[Phillydubs]

Another idea... are you overfeeding or leaving left over food. That could cause the ammonia. But you say it's out the tap??

Still puzzling to
Me

[ncognto]

Yes its fairly high out of the tap right at 1.0ppm. When I test the next day right after water change I am showing just a trace...maybe .25 but I always put it down to the Prime false positive as I get that on all of my tanks if I test within 24 hours of using Prime.

[ncognto]

Sorry that should be testing right before water change not right after.

[ncognto]

Little update and a couple more questions.

I took out the wood, changed the light to a dimmable led and dimmed it down a fair bit. I also started ageing my water 24 hours in a 32 gal brute with a heater and powerhead. They are definitely less shy and more out and about but still easily spooked.

Still having water issues. Now that I am going straight cold water into the ageing barrel (bypassing the hot water heater so to speak) I am not seeing much if any nitrates in the tap water but still seeing 20ppm after 24 hours in the tank. Ammonia is still 1.0 out of the tap and still showing about .25ppm after 24 hours in the tank. Ph is over 7.0 in the barrel but down to 6.0 after 24 hours in the tank. I am only feeding a thimbleful of hans mix, a pinch of tetra bits, pinch of sera bits and a cube of fdbw early mornings and late afternoons then some more bits and worms in the evening and nothing is left after they are done eating. Prefilter sponges are squeezed out daily during water changes and filters are a ac110 and ac50 with those sponges and a hydrosponge 2 squeezed out once a month or so.

Should I use aragonite or crushed coral in one of the filters to buffer the ph or leave it alone? They are growing fast and look great but I am worried about the ph crashing. Also wondering if I need carbon or ammo chips in the filters for the trace ammonia. Its reading .25 on the api kit but I also got one of the in tank monitor cards and that shows clear. Cant think of anything to do about the nitrates other than daily water changes which I am already doing. other than the filters and heaters the only other things in the tank are the two plants in pool filter sand in drinking glasses.

[ncognto]

Figured I would do another update on the tank with some pics. They are out and about much more but still easily spooked. As stated previously I started ageing my water for 24 hrs due to microbubbles. The ph stays the same before and after standing for 24 hrs but the fish seem happier with the aged water so I stuck with it. Cant get nitrates under 20ppm but they dont go over either and I cant do better than daily water changes so it is what it is.

I have had them just over 2 months now and they have gone from 2.5 to 4+ inches in that time. Another couple of months and they will go into a 75 gallon and the daily water changes will probably drop to every other day.

113626113627113628113629

[Kyla]

Just a thought re: nitrates, you could try to root a whole bunch of pothos vines in the tank and let them suck up
some of the nitrate. It won't be perfect, but it can't hurt either. The more pothos the better... I root it in my tank and it grows like mad, even tho there is hardly any window light in the basement...113652

[Kyla]

I also use a little baggie of aragonite in all my tanks because our kH is really low, as a precaution against ph crashes, it works great for me, just make sure you don't add so much that it raises ur ph, I only need a very small bit for my tanks

[Kyla]

If u eventually cut back ur wc to 1x/2days maybe u could even run a filter on ur aged water to convert the ammonia to nitrate or root a ton of pothos in ur barrel under a grow light? I had tanks so heavily planted they never showed nitrate results so if u really plant them heavily it would be neat to see if it lowered the nitrate in the aged water

[ncognto]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I had thought about pothos and might do that. I have already put a small bag of crushed coral in one of the hob filters and may add a bit more as the ph swing between whats in the tank and whats coming out of the tap/aged water is quite a bit. I may try the hob on the brute as well...had thought about it but would need to use an established filter as it probably wont cycle on there by itself I dont think.

[Kyla]

If there is ammonia in the brute then a filter will slowly cycle on it, but u can skip that whole process by adding a bit of your cycled media to the filter on the brute. I heard somewhere that plants will also suck up ammonia directly but I don't know if that's true.

Another plant which really gobbled up the nitrate in my tanks was water sprite... it grew like crazy in thick clumps like lettuce! But it was a bit of a hassle with its leaves and it clogged the surface of the tank. The reason I like pothos for your brute/tank because just the roots hang in the water and it requires very little maintenance. Plus u could drain and refill the brute/tank without having to move it aside.

[rickmiles]

Okay, If pulling the wood and plants didn't work? Here is what I would do next (I've been breeding and raising Discus for 40 plus years and I have been in your situation many times.

In all my Discus tanks, I have apple snails, and at least one bushy/bristle nose pleco.
That could make them feel comfortable seeing others moving around.

Also at a last resort, I have put in 3 to 6 small Angelfish, the Angelfish after a day or two to will come to the top like crazy to feed and your Discus will see this and feel safe to do the same.
https://www.facebook.com/Fintastik

[Kyla]

U could also try paper along the sides of the tank as well, I did that on my QT tank and it seemed to calm down the new fish