Possible bloat?

[Gabe]

I just noticed this last night, I treated him/her for bloat in the tank with other Discus with Epsom salt @ 1 tablespoon per gallon and then again four hours later without results, however with other fish getting the same treatment its hard to tell where the poop came from.
So I just moved him to a ten gallon tank for easier observation. I also treated again with Epsom salt and Metro and now its just a waiting game I guess.
The bloating is mostly on one side and I'm not sure this is even bloat so I thought I would post here for any suggestions.
The fish acts normal, no weird behavior.

113899

[smsimcik]

Doesn't look like bloat to me. More like an intra- abdominal mass. How old is this fish?

[Gabe]

2 years old.
What ever it is, it came fast

[smsimcik]

I was thinking maybe a tumor if it was an older fish. Probably not in just a 2 year old. Maybe an abscess?
I still don't think it's bloat or it would be swollen on both sides equally. Plus it probably would have improved with Epsom salts.
About the only other thing you could try is an antibiotic like Furan or Kanamycin.

[Gabe]

I have never had a fish with bloat so I was not sure what to expect, I thought the swelling should be equal on both sides also.
I have kanamycin coming but I expect to loose this fish in the end. Metro and paragard have no noticeable effect.
Here is a picture of the other side.
BTW; This fish is not dark like these pictures show, it must be the lighting because the tank light is not on. This is a beautiful fish.
113909

[smsimcik]

The discus I've treated for bloat have always responded to Epsom salts within 1-2 days. That's why it's probably not bloat.
I'm actually a veterinarian, and if it were my fish I'd probably try sticking that area with a small needle and syringe to see if I could aspirate anything out like pus or fluid. That's probably the only way you could get a diagnosis.
If it does happen to eventually die, dissect it and see what it is and let us know here.

[Gabe]

I wonder if this could be some sort of injury? I wonder this because it appeared so suddenly...

[smsimcik]

I have no idea what kind of injury would cause something like that.

[Gabe]

It's a bare bottom tank with a single piece of driftwood that has no sharp points or edges.
Well I will see how it goes and I will post back as things progress.
Thanks for your input...

[Gabe]

Now it has a clear bubble right on the end of it? It looks like a giant zip except it is clear where it would normally be yellow on us?

113918

[sayid]

I had a very similar case where my discus had a lump on the same spot ,i treated with Epsom salt which emptied his inside but the lump was still there ,i very nearly was about to pierce the lump with a very narrow syringe 0.4 mm but at the last minute decided to opt out for an antibiotic , in the mean time discus started head standing and a severe case of fin rot , i started administering a 5 day course of minocycline in a 20 g BB tank , 2 weeks later head standing ,the lump and the fin rot are finished but he still not eating so i am changing water with 1 TBS of salt per 10 liter of water and patience.
I hope this helps

[Gabe]

I had a very similar case where my discus had a lump on the same spot ,i treated with Epsom salt which emptied his inside but the lump was still there ,i very nearly was about to pierce the lump with a very narrow syringe 0.4 mm but at the last minute decided to opt out for an antibiotic , in the mean time discus started head standing and a severe case of fin rot , i started administering a 5 day course of minocycline in a 20 g BB tank , 2 weeks later head standing ,the lump and the fin rot are finished but he still not eating so i am changing water with 1 TBS of salt per 10 liter of water and patience.
I hope this helps
It does help knowing someone else has had something similar. This fish shows no signs of anything being wrong with the exception of not eating since I moved him which is normal for a Discus not to eat when you change their environment, so i have not considered that a problem yet.
Yeah I would like to make a small incision in the head of that thing but so far I have refrained from doing so. I have an antibiotic coming but have never needed one until now, I suppose it will be good to have on hand.
Thanks for your comment...

[sayid]

You have done every thing right so far ,the lump might be the result of either worms or internal bacterial infection, you are using metro so worms are taken care of but my guess is internal infection,the drug of choice is furan 2 but my preference goes to minocycline ( maracyn 2 ) which can be absorbed through the skin since your fish does not eat but furan 2 is good as well.
I would leave the incision as the last resort ( you have to know where you put the needle without puncturing an unrelated organ ) and 80% of the time you get a secondary infection , may i also suggest to reduce your temp to about 80 f and add 1 TBS salt per g to reduce bacterial activity to minimum.
Good luck.

[Gabe]

You have done every thing right so far ,the lump might be the result of either worms or internal bacterial infection, you are using metro so worms are taken care of but my guess is internal infection,the drug of choice is furan 2 but my preference goes to minocycline ( maracyn 2 ) which can be absorbed through the skin since your fish does not eat but furan 2 is good as well.
I would leave the incision as the last resort ( you have to know where you put the needle without puncturing an unrelated organ ) and 80% of the time you get a secondary infection , may i also suggest to reduce your temp to about 80 f and add 1 TBS salt per g to reduce bacterial activity to minimum.
Good luck.

I don't plan on trying to cut-stick-stab or anything like that and I'm using salt (but not at that dose) however the temp is elevated but I can reduce it to 80 and add more salt.
I understand for some reason Maracyn 2 has been out of production for a while but I found some and bought it off eBay (just now).
Thanks for the help...

[DJW]

If it is an infection Kanamycin is a good choice for this, since it is well absorbed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16502697

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/antibiotic_use7.shtml

[Gabe]

If it is an infection Kanamycin is a good choice for this, since it is well absorbed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16502697

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/antibiotic_use7.shtml

I have some kanamycin coming, should be here soon

[sayid]

If it is an infection Kanamycin is a good choice for this, since it is well absorbed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16502697

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/disease_medications/medicine_cabinet/antibiotic_use7.shtml

+1

[Gabe]

I noticed this was coming out of him just now, you can see some of it on the bottom.
Yellow stringy stuff!

113929

[sayid]

It looks like a pimple that has opened up ,you need to keep your salted water up and general clean house keeping ,i am not sure about the use of antibiotic ,that is my opinion perhaps more experienced members can chime in .
Very good looking fish.

[Gabe]

Yeah he is not doing real good now, like I said earlier I don't expect him to make it mostly because I have no idea what I'm dealing with here.
I'm throwing everything I have at it with out success, I hope he makes it until the antibiotics get here.
This will be the first Discus I have lost in a long time and it may somehow be contributed to me moving them to a new tank two weeks ago.
I have seven other Discus in that tank that are doing great so I don't know.

[sayid]

My fingers are crossed.

[Gabe]

All day yesterday he laid on his side at the top of the tank, when I got up this morning he is upright swimming around!!!
That large bump is less than half the size it was so I replaced half the water and cleaned the filter media and bio-wheel in tank water.
So things are looking up.:bounce:

[sayid]

I am happy that things are looking more positive ,keep us up to date .

[Gabe]

It's down to about 15% of what it was, he is still not eating yet but I'm not worried about that.
Meds should be here in a couple of hours unless the USPS has screwed up again (whats new?)
You can clearly see that clear bubble that is present at times...

113957

[Gabe]

As predicted the post office failed to meet their obligation.
The worst shipper in the shipping business, they have a one star rating and are slipping from that. How do they keep their job????

[Gabe]

Looks like everything is almost back to normal, he is still not eating and may not until I get him back with his tank mates.
This problem was much better before I started giving him antibiotics, I have one more round to give him before returning him back to his tank.
BTW: he is not dark like this picture shows, he is very normal looking and he is 5+ inches.

114043

[smsimcik]

Looks like everything is almost back to normal, he is still not eating and may not until I get him back with his tank mates.
This problem was much better before I started giving him antibiotics, I have one more round to give him before returning him back to his tank.
BTW: he is not dark like this picture shows, he is very normal looking and he is 5+ inches.

114043

I suspect it was a cyst or abscess that ruptured and drained. The antibiotics should clean up any remaining infection. Glad he made it.

[Gabe]

He just now started to eat! He had a little bite of beefheart.
Yeah I think he is out of the woods.....:angel:

[Gabe]

He is back with his buds and back to normal and eating like a pig.
Thanks for all the help and comments, hopefully this thread will help someone with the same problem...

114058

[Kyla]

I'm amazed the fish recovered so well from this issue. Good job!!!

[Gabe]

I'm amazed the fish recovered so well from this issue. Good job!!!

Me too, I feel lucky...

[sayid]

You are lucky ,my fish still struggling with the same issue and i can't get any kanamycin because e bay has sold out .i am happy for you.

[brewmaster15]

You are lucky ,my fish still struggling with the same issue and i can't get any kanamycin because e bay has sold out .i am happy for you.

Sayid,
Next best wiould be Oxytetracycline... also minocycline These are on ebay in Australia.

hth,
al

[sayid]

Sayid,
Next best wiould be Oxytetracycline... also minocycline These are on ebay in Australia.

hth,
al

Hi Al
I treated the same fish for the same infection for 6 days with minocyclin with recommended dosage , he got much better but still not eating but 3 days ago he is getting gradually worst and the bloat is gradually getting bigger , i still have minocyclin on hand but not sure if he has got resistance towards minocyclin and whether i should put him on longer treatment period like 12 days with the same dosage or combine minocyclin with furan-2 which i have on hand or order oxytetracycline as you kindly have suggested.
( sorry i did not mean to hijack the thread ).
Thank Al

[sayid]

Hi Al
Just received your PM ,thanks for taking interest .

[Gabe]

By the time the antibiotics arrived, this fish already showed signs of getting better, like no longer laying on his side at the surface and substantial reduction of the swelling. I administered one round of (KanaPlex by Seachem).
This fish is completely back to normal with a giant appetite and even chasing other Discus at times and he is as friendly as ever.
114143

[Gabe]

Hi Al
( sorry i did not mean to hijack the thread ).
Thank Al
You have the same problem, I don't consider that to be high jacking the thread.