What is a "Select Grade" and "A grade" discus?

[HappyFace]

I thought a good discus has to be round when the fins are clamped (round body then fins add height). I thought anything less than this meant it's a bad breeding or a runt. I see an egg/kite body shape and amazing fins on a lot of discus that people consider very good quality. Can a select grade discus have an egg/kite shaped body with nice fins or is that an A grade? Is select grade when they have high foreheads, super round bodies (even with clamped fins) and flat faces (my favorite)? Or is select grade referring more to the color of a good quality discus?

Some of my new discus are egg/kite shaped. They look nice with their fins erect but ugly when their fins are clamped.

[Larry Bugg]

From a judging standpoint..... we look at the total discus (fins included) to be round.

[Larry Bugg]

From a judging standpoint..... we look at the total discus (fins included) to be round. Select grade or A grade is just a adjective the seller uses to sell the fish. While there are standards used when judging a discus the seller uses the standard he chooses and usually the one that will bring him the highest price. Just like there are no standards with names. A breeder/seller can tell you he is selling you a new strain when it just has a new name.

[HappyFace]

From a judging standpoint..... we look at the total discus (fins included) to be round. Select grade or A grade is just a adjective the seller uses to sell the fish. While there are standards used when judging a discus the seller uses the standard he chooses and usually the one that will bring him the highest price. Just like there are no standards with names. A breeder/seller can tell you he is selling you a new strain when it just has a new name.

Wow. Thank you for sharing this. No wonder I'm having such a hard time finding discus I like. My standard appears to be different even from show quality. :( I always thought fins were just the icing on the cake.

I like to see a round ball body without the fins (like this spotted eruption discus). I love a high forehead though (like the white butterfly pic) and I like when the top fins are high making the discus look tough, a bit high bodied.

[HappyFace]

A breeder/seller can tell you he is selling you a new strain when it just has a new name.

I relate to this. I see the same discus called different things by different breeders. That's why I was wondering about my new "Albino Super Crystal." I haven't seen one quite like it before though so I don't know what to think.

[Willie]

Sellers will advertise "select grade" or "A grade" to signify that their discus is better than usual. If every discus they offer is "select" or "A grade", it would certainly suggest a lot of BS. Sometimes, you see offers where only a few discus strains are described as "select grade" or "A grade". The same strain may also be offered without the "select grade" designation or called out as "B grade". These will be priced lower. That makes sense to me. Of course, it's up to your eye to confirm whether or not the designation is deserved. Just saying it doesn't make it so.

Also, discus are not like widgets. In every tank, there's one best looking discus and one dog. Hand picking is best. If you cannot do that in person (most of us cannot), it's important to develop a relationship with the seller. (I'm always amazed by people who show up in my fish room to demand the best discus and ask for a discount in the same breath.) Hobbyist who believe they can get the best discus at a great deal from a seller they're dealing with for the very first time are simply naive. This is another good reason to focus on sellers at Simply. They probably know you from your posts, even if they don't always comment.

When I buy discus, I will look hard at the "select grade" or "A grade" fish and pick those if I believe they deserve the higher price. I'm going to invest 500 - 600 water changes to get them to up adult size, so $20 - $30 doesn't make much of a difference.

As for the fish in your picture, the first two are poor quality discus. As you pointed out, the first one is a football. The second one has an oversized head and the diameter of the eyes suggests that it's a stunted adult. The third fish has a "parrot" type beak. You'll also notice that its ventral and dorsal fins are not symmetrical. I generally don't comment on fish quality, but in this case, you specifically asked. There is a thread on Simply devoted to assessing discus quality. You'll find good tips for judging discus quality there from those who compete at NADA and other discus competition.

Willie

[HappyFace]

Sellers will advertise "select grade" or "A grade" to signify that their discus is better than usual. If every discus they offer is "select" or "A grade", it would certainly suggest a lot of BS. Sometimes, you see offers where only a few discus strains are described as "select grade" or "A grade". The same strain may also be offered without the "select grade" designation or called out as "B grade". These will be priced lower. That makes sense to me. Of course, it's up to your eye to confirm whether or not the designation is deserved. Just saying it doesn't make it so.

Also, discus are not like widgets. In every tank, there's one best looking discus and one dog. Hand picking is best. If you cannot do that in person (most of us cannot), it's important to develop a relationship with the seller. (I'm always amazed by people who show up in my fish room to demand the best discus and ask for a discount in the same breath.) Hobbyist who believe they can get the best discus at a great deal from a seller they're dealing with for the very first time are simply naive. This is another good reason to focus on sellers at Simply. They probably know you from your posts, even if they don't always comment.

When I buy discus, I will look hard at the "select grade" or "A grade" fish and pick those if I believe they deserve the higher price. I'm going to invest 500 - 600 water changes to get them to up adult size, so $20 - $30 doesn't make much of a difference.

As for the fish in your picture, the first two are poor quality discus. As you pointed out, the first one is a football. The second one has an oversized head and the diameter of the eyes suggests that it's a stunted adult. The third fish has a "parrot" type beak. You'll also notice that its ventral and dorsal fins are not symmetrical. I generally don't comment on fish quality, but in this case, you specifically asked. There is a thread on Simply devoted to assessing discus quality. You'll find good tips for judging discus quality there from those who compete at NADA and other discus competition.

Willie

Hi Willie. Thank you so much for your insights and recommending a thread on Simply devoted to assessing discus quality. I will check that out.

[HappyFace]

I really like the parrot beak and bigger top fin on the pink one. Now that you mention it Willie, I can see that they would be considered flaws. I think it looks cool though. He reminds me of a Moluccan Cockatoo I once had.

[HappyFace]

Separated at birth. Maybe not. They're similar color and both have a poofy top though.

[Willie]

Definitely a family resemblance, ;).

[zhuls1]

113976

Here is an example of a high quality discus. I think one of the problems with most discus is they don't have much of a "chin", that is just under their mouth it is quite tucked in. I am quite a fussy person though and 90% of the discus on this forum are not of the quality I personally would be happy with. Real quality discus are hard to come by, especially here in Australia. My advice is to ask to see pictures of the actual discus you are receiving before a seller sends them. Or better yet, if you can, see them in person. Ask them if you can pick from a picture or video of the discus. Also, try to get in as soon as a shipment arrives for whoever you are buying from. The best chances of getting good discus is to make good relationships with the importers and try to get in within the hour of them recieving a shipment, this way you can pick the very best of the bunch. I know the retailer I buy from, when he posts pictures the nicest ones will sell within the hour, so be quick.

[HappyFace]

Definitely a family resemblance, ;).

:) :)

113907

Here is an example of a high quality discus. I think one of the problems with most discus is they don't have much of a "chin", that is just under their mouth it is quite tucked in. I am quite a fussy person though and 90% of the discus on this forum are not of the quality I personally would be happy with. Real quality discus are hard to come by, especially here in Australia. My advice is to ask to see pictures of the actual discus you are receiving before a seller sends them. Or better yet, if you can, see them in person. Ask them if you can pick from a picture or video of the discus. Also, try to get in as soon as a shipment arrives for whoever you are buying from. The best chances of getting good discus is to make good relationships with the importers and try to get in within the hour of them recieving a shipment, this way you can pick the very best of the bunch. I know the retailer I buy from, when he posts pictures the nicest ones will sell within the hour, so be quick.

Beautiful discus. <3 Thank you for the good advise.

[HappyFace]

I've been looking at Daca show discus from what I can see, 7 out of 10 discus have an egg/football shaped body with excellent fins and 3 out of 10 have very round bodies. I included a collage with some of the discus in the show with what I consider to be an egg shaped body. In 2017 show 2 winners had what I would consider egg shaped bodies with excellent fins and the rest were all extremely round. I including picture references of the 2 winners with egg bodies.

It would seem that judges do look at the whole body plus fins but when they award ribbons they prefer the more round bodied discus because only 2 discus that had egg shaped bodies were chosen as winners.

[HappyFace]

It distressed me to have a discus in my tank with an egg shaped body. They must be a circle to be in my tank. I'm not sure why it bothers me.

I have a koi with one fin that I adore, several others with badly torn and frayed fins but I still think they are gorgeous. My son has severe scoliosis and back hump but I think he couldn't be more beautiful. Not sure why I expect so much of my discus. :(

[HappyFace]

Sorry I should have included this. Here are some round body show winners as comparison.

[Larry Bugg]

I've been looking at Daca show discus from what I can see, 7 out of 10 discus have an egg/football shaped body with excellent fins and 3 out of 10 have very round bodies. I included a collage with some of the discus in the show with what I consider to be an egg shaped body. In 2017 show 2 winners had what I would consider egg shaped bodies with excellent fins and the rest were all extremely round. I including picture references of the 2 winners with egg bodies.

It would seem that judges do look at the whole body plus fins but when they award ribbons they prefer the more round bodied discus because only 2 discus that had egg shaped bodies were chosen as winners.

Lol, the person that told you earlier in this thread that they are judged round including the fins is a certified NADA judge.

[HappyFace]

:o

[LizStreithorst]

What Wilie said

[HappyFace]

People who haven't been keeping discus very long might see a beautiful, round-bodied, show-winning discus and put all other discus up to that standard like I did. A lot of posts here talk about football-shaped discus being bad and only circle-shaped discus are good. That's why I made this post.

After receiving some great comments I did more research, not just looking at the show winner but also all the competitors. I posted picture examples here incase anyone else might be interested in this topic. I'm sure people who have been on this forum for 10-20 years have no need for this post.

[Larry Bugg]

When we refer to football shaped we are also talking about fins included, not just the body.

[zhuls1]

Hello Hiedi, if you are interested in quality, look at discus from international shows, the quality at the internationals are far better than that at most of the domestic shows. Like that picture I posted, it was from an international show. Also, shape will to some degree depend on strain. The best shaped strains are by far turqs, followed by blue diamonds. The reason for this it that they are far closer to wild discus genetically speaking. Throughout the years many of the newer strains have been heavily line bred and inbred, this enhances whatever feature they are focusing on, however it also exaggerates their faults too.

[HappyFace]

When we refer to football shaped we are also talking about fins included, not just the body.

Thank you Larry. I think maybe I've been a bit confused because a lot of the really bad quality discus look sort of look triangle and boomerang shaped to me but everyone calls them football's so I thought they were referring to just the body and that anything football shape is bad. I'm sorry for my confusion.


Hello Hiedi, if you are interested in quality, look at discus from international shows, the quality at the internationals are far better than that at most of the domestic shows. Like that picture I posted, it was from an international show. Also, shape will to some degree depend on strain. The best shaped strains are by far turqs, followed by blue diamonds. The reason for this it that they are far closer to wild discus genetically speaking. Throughout the years many of the newer strains have been heavily line bred and inbred, this enhances whatever feature they are focusing on, however it also exaggerates their faults too.

Thank you Zac. I will look at the international shows. That's interesting about the linebreeding and inbreeding. Makes sense.

[bluelagoon]

It distressed me to have a discus in my tank with an egg shaped body. They must be a circle to be in my tank. I'm not sure why it bothers me.

I have a koi with one fin that I adore, several others with badly torn and frayed fins but I still think they are gorgeous. My son has severe scoliosis and back hump but I think he couldn't be more beautiful. Not sure why I expect so much of my discus. :(

Hi,they even breed discus with spines that look like scoliosis,called bulldogs.A shame really,but some folks think they're awesome.

[Second Hand Pat]

I would like to add that you generally can not judge a discus from one picture. An odd angle can make a nice discus look "off". You really need to see a discus in person IMO.
Pat

[RogueDiscus]

Hi Larry,
Just playing devil's advocate here, but I think we're seeing more and more "nice" fish with round bodies, plus the fins. I can see how you'd like the dorsal, anal and tail fins to be generally round when combined, but how are the round bodies judged, and what about streamers? At this point, I tend to ask for round bodies plus fins.

[HappyFace]

Hi,they even breed discus with spines that look like scoliosis,called bulldogs.A shame really,but some folks think they're awesome.
Poor fish. :(


I would like to add that you generally can not judge a discus from one picture. An odd angle can make a nice discus look "off". You really need to see a discus in person IMO.
Pat
Thank you Pat. That's a very good point.


Hi Larry,
Just playing devil's advocate here, but I think we're seeing more and more "nice" fish with round bodies, plus the fins. I can see how you'd like the dorsal, anal and tail fins to be generally round when combined, but how are the round bodies judged, and what about streamers? At this point, I tend to ask for round bodies plus fins.
This is exactly what I did with my last batches of discus. I asked for a circular body without the fins, circular even when the fins are clamped. One of the sellers acted like they didn't understand what I meant.

[HappyFace]

Hello Hiedi, if you are interested in quality, look at discus from international shows, the quality at the internationals are far better than that at most of the domestic shows. Like that picture I posted, it was from an international show. Also, shape will to some degree depend on strain. The best shaped strains are by far turqs, followed by blue diamonds. The reason for this it that they are far closer to wild discus genetically speaking. Throughout the years many of the newer strains have been heavily line bred and inbred, this enhances whatever feature they are focusing on, however it also exaggerates their faults too.

The international shows should come with the warning "Viewer discretion advised. Watching may cause you to cull all your fish."

[zhuls1]

Hi,they even breed discus with spines that look like scoliosis,called bulldogs.A shame really,but some folks think they're awesome.

According to Andrew Soh's book discus the naked truth, These extremely high bodied strains are actually a deformity caused by a particular strain of bacteria. Basically, it's a harmful bacteria which is why it deforms the fish. Also, they do not breed true as it is not a strain as such, but simply a deformation. If you breed it, some may become very high bodied, but this is not genetic rather it is phenotypical, caused by the bacteria spread from the parents. Personally, I would avoid these strains.

[zhuls1]

The international shows should come with the warning "Viewer discretion advised. Watching may cause you to cull all your fish."

LOL, careful of what you watch... Maybe competitions of the 80s will be better than JK. If you look at books from the 80's, you'l see just how far discus have come since than. Big difference in show fish than as compared to what they look like now.

[bluelagoon]

According to Andrew Soh's book discus the naked truth, These extremely high bodied strains are actually a deformity caused by a particular strain of bacteria. Basically, it's a harmful bacteria which is why it deforms the fish. Also, they do not breed true as it is not a strain as such, but simply a deformation. If you breed it, some may become very high bodied, but this is not genetic rather it is phenotypical, caused by the bacteria spread from the parents. Personally, I would avoid these strains.

So,you're saying that these bulldogs when bred together,it is most likely they will not reproduce offspring with curved spines?