Bare or planted

[benjieb]

Hi....sure this will not be the first time this has been raised but.....is it just me that fails to see, other than for medication or breeding, the beauty of keeping our pets in bare tanks? I see beautiful fishes in whats akin to a prison cell. Yes, it can be cleaned just like a hospital ward, but is surely as pleasant for Diskies as a hospital is to us!
My babies are in a 2/3 fine sand covered base, with 2 levels of raised beds of plants. 25% daily automatic water changes takes the majority of waste out of the tank due to engineered flow charicteristics, the rest by battery vacuum into a bag, where the sand is removed, cleaned, and replaced. I use ORP and smell as indicators of problems...the tank doesnt smell of 'fish', and ORP stays 300-350. Nitrate gets the Devils Ivy plants green and happy in the wier and along back of tank. The sump prefilter floss is changed weekly. Fish are happy and love to play in the plants, visitors are amazed. As long as water changes and hygiene are kept up, why not give our pets a nice home to live in?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi benjieb and welcome to Simply. There are some interesting threads regarding planted tanks and discus. Generally for new discus keepers or raising discus from fry/juvies a bare bottom tank is recommended. Why, there are less variables to contend with for keeping the fish healthy. These variables include (but not limited to) parasites, maintaining a clean tank, maintaining clean water but the most important is where the empthasis should be which is on the discus and their health and well being. For a new discus keeper it should be all about the fish.

Now if you have both discus and planted tank experience then go for it. There are some beautiful tanks here; both BB and planted. :)
Pat

[Willie]

Every successful forum has wonderful moderators like Pat who provide gentle coaching. Then there are others who deliver more candid feedback. :o

Your "babies" are not clean. If you put the fish into a barebottom tank overnight, you will see how much poop actually accumulates. You simply cannot see the dirt in a tank covered with sand or gravel. If you touch the inside glass, you will feel the accumulating slime. 25% daily water changes are nice, but your water quality is worsening everyday unless you can change more than 50%. If your tank water supports good plant growth, then your nitrate levels are way too high. The natural biome for discus is a muddy bottom with no plants, but very clean water. So the plants in the tank are not there for the benefit of you fish.

As odd as it seems, those of us with barebottom tanks are not lacking in aesthetics. Everyone starts with sand, gravel, plants, etc. and have watched our juvenile discus die. They won't thrive, they don't grow, they won't even survive. We know that from personal experience.

Willie

[benjieb]

Thanks for the welcome Pat! Hmmm....might be new to being an active member of this forum, but not new to fishkeeping or extensive reading of this and the UK forum. Noone can argue that large waterchanges are best for discus, noone. But,its a bit of a eutopic situation that the discus elete have the facilities and finance or time to do these large changes. Am not sure about the US of A, but in the UK water is in the main, esp in the south, very expensive, making even an average change without ro down to finance. Ive automated my water changes, cutting out the time factor, but can only change max 200l per day as i like to age my HMA/carbon filtered water, which costs an arm and a leg already.
Ok, some will say if you cant afford it, dont do it. Ive spent thousands setting up a bespoke discus tank to keep my "babies" happy (see laboratory section of forum). Checked nitrates 5 mins ago and they are negligable, due to planting. To say that if plants grow then nitrates are too high is, in my opinion eletist, basically saying no to filtration and relying on massive WCs, until curcumstance keeps you away for a few days and they all die.
Balance is optimum, balance of WCs and good filtration, balance of pH and other parameters, even if they are not perfect(obv, no nasties). Lets think of and help the normal guy that wants to keep some discus in a planted community doing as best as they can within their constraints to look after their pets.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi benjieb, large water changes have their role in discus keeping. Nothing really elitist about it. It simply works for a lot of folks and for a lot of new discus keepers. It is recommended here for new discus keepers. Need to learn how to keep the fish healthy first and then tweak your approach while keeping the fish happy. I saw your tank pics in another thread, beautiful tank and the fish look good. :)
Pat

[lastflea]

I was going to go planted for a tank of juveniles, but after reading the horror stories on here, and all the comments saying "get your plants out of there!!", I thought better of it. BB for me, until they're adults, and hopefully quite big. If I can get them to 8 to 10" I'd consider that a success. So many things depend on them reaching adulthood though, and BB will no doubt increase their chances. I love planted tanks though, so when they're stronger I'll be scaping something simple to maintain and keep clean, but hopefully also beautiful, as planted tanks can be.

[benjieb]

Thanks Pat for the heads up. As i said initially, there is no argument against large water changes perse, just that, for a lot of keepers, large water changes are not possible, and they have to rely on smaller changes, backed up by good old fashoned filtration. Therefore, shouldnt we, in transit, be discussing how to setup a good sump, or even canister. Mr Willies comment that nitrates that contribute to plant growth are already too high is not really a positive comment for the average aquarist thats battling nitrates constantly. I have always believed in giving nature all the tools it needs to do its job.
A discussion into what causes degeneration of aquarium water as well as nitrates, would be good too, for the section of members that are looking into keeping optimal conditions without constant large water changes. Also, Anoxic filtration keeps on cropping up.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi benjieb, there are definitely threads which discuss sump and canister setup and various parts of filtration. Those are generally found in various parts of the forum. You are also more then welcome to start your own thread showing your system and/or asking any questions you might have.

Regarding Willie's post he is talking from personal experience with his fish and water so not sure why you take exception to his post.

Regarding the "degeneration of aquarium water" this is a good read http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?120956-What-Are-Bioload-and-Biomass-and-Why-They-Are-Important&highlight=. Also the stickies in this section you might find useful http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?124-Filtration-Pumps-and-Plumbing.

I think you would find Paul's approach to his tank a good read http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?372-Adult-Discus-Show-Tank-(afriend)-NW-Arkansas. Checkout the stickies at the top of his homesteader.
Pat

[Paul Sabucchi]

If I may chime in, as stated on this forum multiple times about this argument by folk who have been raising discus for decades, I have no problem believing that it is a lot harder and will probably yield worse results growing juvies in a planted tank. Hence I set up my tank as BB and after 7 months am still glad I did so. Every night I syphon, wipe the 5 panes and change 240 liters out of 360 (and water in Italy is as expensive as in the UK). You would not believe the amount of waste and mucus that is produced, I have another 7 tanks with different substrate - from the finest sand to 3 mm gravel and there is no way I could achieve the same degree of cleanliness with substrate, decor and plants. Keeping the tank bare may appear stark but at the end of the day I set it up to admire discus growing nicely - and 5 of my other tanks are planted so I get my green fix from those. My fish seem perfectly happy in a BB tank, no sign of stress deriving from lack of hiding places. As far as I know the exact reason why discus grow better in a BB tank with big daily water changes is still not established beyond doubt ( nitrates, desolved organics, bacteria, "phantomatic" pheromones, etc) have been indicated as possible causes (and if this obstacle could be removed then we could raise discus with less restrictions) , but in the mean time we have to accept the fact that growing them in a planted tank with less water changes is going to be a bit like running a marathon in a gorilla suit, probably more colorful but a lot harder and unlikely to give the best results.

[Willie]

... growing them in a planted tank with less water changes is going to be a bit like running a marathon in a gorilla suit, probably more colorful but a lot harder and unlikely to give the best results...

Hi Paul;

Funny you used this metaphor. I have a friend who used to work for the Pillsbury company and is a ferocious runner. One year, he ran in the Twin Cities marathon wearing the Pillsbury Doughboy costume, which was just a big head!

115087

I asked him if it got hot in there. His recollection was that it was tough to see out of the eye holes for 26+ miles!

Willie :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Hart24601]

I grew out my discus in a BB tank with daily large w/c, sometimes 90% twice a day. The reason being they are and pooed so much. It was amazing and no filter I have seen short of huge systems would be able to handle the organic load. That being said I noticed a drop off on how much they ate around 4", and then transfered them to my 180 with daily 20% auto water changes and white bare bottom but potted plants. Then around 6" mark added sand still doing the auto changes with pothos and UV with nitrates never over 5ppm on salifert test.

Maybe one could growout on less food or less frequently, no clue, I didn't try it, but it was pretty clear to me why big w/c are needed with small guys. I fed fdbw and discus bio-gold, if feeding less expensive and potentially messier beefheart no way one could keep quality up feeding 6-10x per day.

I have those large W/C almost totally automated so all I did was turn a valve.

[benjieb]

Thanks fer all your replys guys. I guess the answer is, if you cant afford to keep them, dont get them eh! They can be the preserve of the wealthier fishkeepers, and if you cant afford to make, store, and use large amounts of water, keep goldfish!

[Hart24601]

The funny thing is in most of the world, but clearly not all, water is quite inexpensive and it's cheaper to do big W/C than buy and pay for electricity for some large filter systems like large refugiums. $5 for 1000g is my rate. So a 40g breeder with daily100% change is just over $5 a month.

[Paul Sabucchi]

I do not think discus are the plaything of people with lots of money, just that if you want to have a smaller initial outlay by purchasing juvies if you want to grow them out to a decent size you are better off investing in water changes rather than fancy substrate, decor, plants, lighting and ferts

[CammieTime]

As odd as it seems, those of us with barebottom tanks are not lacking in aesthetics. Everyone starts with sand, gravel, plants, etc. and have watched our juvenile discus die. They won't thrive, they don't grow, they won't even survive. We know that from personal experience.

Willie

YUP. I started with a planted gravel tank and my 2.5" discus got no bigger than 3.5 inches. When I switched to BB my new batch of fish grew much bigger with the same level of water changes and care. Growing out discus to full 6" size requires BB tank. Fully grown adult discus will do fine in a planted tank.

Another thing that nobody mentioned was ammonia and nitrite levels. Everyone thinks they have a "cycled filter" when in reality they may not. Any exposure to ammonia or nitrite (even very small amounts) utterly halt discus growth. Daily water changes mitigate this as the ammonia never gets a chance to build up and be a problem.

[benjieb]

"Another thing that nobody mentioned was ammonia and nitrite levels. Everyone thinks they have a "cycled filter" when in reality they may not. Any exposure to ammonia or nitrite (even very small amounts) utterly halt discus growth. Daily water changes mitigate this as the ammonia never gets a chance to build up and be a problem."

Everyone? Perhaps newbies might have cycling problems, but older discus keepers fur sure go to great lengths to ensure zero ammonia, zero nitrite, and negligible nitrate....acceptable hardness/ TDS, minerals, Redox within parameters, physical cleanliness of tank floor, clean prefilters, varied diet, etc etc etc. The idea behind this post is to raise options and give viable alternatives.

I for one would not like to rely solely on water changing. i have 6 separate methods of filtration to run concurrently with a 33% daily wc.

[Filip]

The evolution of a discus keeper / fanatic ussualy starts with a full blown discus planted tank .Then it progresses to sand with some driftwood and anubias here and there and it ends with bare tanks once you start to breed and raise baby discus (the fanatic phase :) ) .
Its a normal scale of progression in the hobby if you are determined to stay longer in discus :) . "Resistance is futile" :) .

Please share the link of your tank and filtration here Benijeb . I'm curious of your 6 stage filtration system .

[benjieb]

Hi Filip,

Link to tank message here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?108268-Why-dont-discus-keepers-do-automatic-water-changes-more-often

Stages are: Filter floss prefilter/cassette trickle filter/c,m,f foam block/ K1 micro fluidised bed/alfagrog/purigen/fluidised sand filter. (oh, thats 7!)

Filip, your evolutionary post is probably the closest answer yet as to why veteran keepers are doing large water changes, but, as my tank shows, you can have a planted setup, but design it primarily with discus in mind. A thin layer of white sand is very good at showing everything up, without looking "bare"

[benjieb]

PS.....tank is on last page of thread

[Filip]

Thanks for the info and the link Benjieb . Its a nice looking discus tank and a good compromise between discus and plant needs .
Grown discus can be successfully kept in a planted tank but I wouldn't risk to raise young's in the same environment .

[benjieb]

No worries Filip. Is fer sure that a standard planted would be very difficult to keep clean enough. Is amazing how much "micropoo" i vaccuum up on a daily basis, that would never be seen on a normal substrate. Also food that would remain on the substrate if it were not directed to the suction zone on the far right front of tank and sucked out.