pH buffering

[wsdiscus]

I have discus and pH is about 6.8-7 from tap but can drop below 6 with aging
i am using crushed coral in tank for buffering but it doesn't seem to effect it too much
any suggestions? I don't really like having to buffer the water but other than very frequent water changes I don't really have a choice
Thanks!

[bluelagoon]

Nothing wrong with a ph of 5-6 for discus.Some folks would like to have that soft water.WC's frequently and good volume is all that you need.

[wsdiscus]

good to know....i did have it fall dangerously low one time below 4 but it seems to now stay around 6.5 ....you have to worry about swings in the pH ...they can adjust i think but wide swings are not good thus i don't wont to mess with it too much

[rickztahone]

I have discus and pH is about 6.8-7 from tap but can drop below 6 with aging
i am using crushed coral in tank for buffering but it doesn't seem to effect it too much
any suggestions? I don't really like having to buffer the water but other than very frequent water changes I don't really have a choice
Thanks!

definitely no need for the crushed coral. I would age the water before WC and do changes with that. Consistency is the key here.

[Second Hand Pat]

Morgan, what's your KH both in tap and in tank?
Pat

[wsdiscus]

I have no idea....What test kit is available to test the KH?

[RogueDiscus]

Hagan and API both make test kits

If I recall correctly, the Hagan kit is paired with GH. Gives you a chance to test your total hardness GH, and then figure out how much of that is KH.

[Second Hand Pat]

The API GH/KH will test both and is fairly cheap.
Pat

[wsdiscus]

Thanks Pat, i have ordered that and will let you know the results :)

[wsdiscus]

definitely no need for the crushed coral. I would age the water before WC and do changes with that. Consistency is the key here.

What would aging the water accomplish? stability in pH? the pH seems to drop with age. What container would i use (I have 75 gallon tan)
I am not sure how practical that is for me because the container would have to be outside and the temps drop in the winter.

[bluelagoon]

Yes,the water will be much more stable and would have dropped during ageing and not in your tank.7 ph to 6 over night and that is a big drop in that length of time.Your water supplier "might" be using something like sodium hydroxide to temporarily increase the ph in the acidic water so it won't corrode metal pipes.Plus it allows for gas exchange and gets rid of the carbon dioxide in the water which also increases ph.Plus if your water supplier is using chlorine;ageing will also get rid of that.How often and how big a volume do you plan on changing your water?

[wsdiscus]

Morgan, what's your KH both in tap and in tank?
Pat

Hi Pat,

My KH and GH test is reactive with only 2 drops of the API solution (2dKH,35.8 ppm GH/KH)
this is from the tank after a 60% water change
my pH is 6.4 and temp is 85

[wsdiscus]

Yes,the water will be much more stable and would have dropped during ageing and not in your tank.7 ph to 6 over night and that is a big drop in that length of time.Your water supplier "might" be using something like sodium hydroxide to temporarily increase the ph in the acidic water so it won't corrode metal pipes.Plus it allows for gas exchange and gets rid of the carbon dioxide in the water which also increases ph.Plus if your water supplier is using chlorine;ageing will also get rid of that.How often and how big a volume do you plan on changing your water?

I have a 75 g so i would be changing 30-40 gallons about every 3 days
the city has told me the only thing they use is chlorine but you never know
i could put some kind of container outside in my courtyard but how to heat the water in that?

[bluelagoon]

Your water seems low in bicarbonate hardness and will not hold up to heavy feeding over a few days due to ion exchange,thus drops quickly.Every day or every other WC's would be better.If your climate is warm enough,the barrel can go out side.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Pat,

My KH and GH test is reactive with only 2 drops of the API solution (2dKH,35.8 ppm GH/KH)
this is from the tank after a 60% water change
my pH is 6.4 and temp is 85

Hi Morgan, that is pretty low. You might consider adding a handfull of crushed coral to help maintain your KH.
Pat

[wsdiscus]

Pat,
I already have 2 cups of crushed coral in zippered bags inside the tank

Looks like water changes every day or 2 is what is required
I don't know that aging the water is very practical for me

[bluelagoon]

Can you take the coral out of the bag and put it in the filter?

[brewmaster15]

I have discus and pH is about 6.8-7 from tap but can drop below 6 with aging
i am using crushed coral in tank for buffering but it doesn't seem to effect it too much
any suggestions? I don't really like having to buffer the water but other than very frequent water changes I don't really have a choice
Thanks!

I would use crushed coral in a nylon stocking in the filter... Your water is low in KH ..I have similar issue here. When you say "it can.drop below 6 with aging but is 6.8-7 out of the tap".Thats not the same kind of Aging we normally mean . In your Tank you have the nitrogen cycle that consumes your KH and brings your pH down if the KH isnt sufficient. You also.have off gassing as a factor .You can compensate for low KH with more volume and frequency of water change or you bump up the KH.An easy and cheap way to do that with crushed coral. I use it here alot in my non breeder tanks.If you dont buffer the water and you slack on the water changes or over feed /over stock you risk a pH crash. When that happens you cam really mess up your fish.(been there done that.)

I would suggest you get a 5 gal pail... fill it with water from the tap. Measure the pH and add an airstone. Let it aerate (Age/off gassing) 24 hours or at least overnight . Measure the pH again. That will tell your true pH. You may not need aging...just buffer or more water changes.

Hth,
Al

[wsdiscus]

Thanks Al!
I'll let you know how that comes out

[wsdiscus]

Yes indeed

[wsdiscus]

Yes

[bluelagoon]

Our water is about the same.I like it tho.A lot better than hard water IMO.I would do and still do large frequent WC's to compensate crashes.The fish of all species seem to like large frequent WC's from what I can observe.Diseases also seem less likely.

[bluelagoon]

Just a foot note sorta thing.The sulfates here in the lakes are beginning to ease up after decades of coal burning.Same glad we all know how dirty that stuff can be.

[wsdiscus]

Just a foot note sorta thing.The sulfates here in the lakes are beginning to ease up after decades of coal burning.Same glad we all know how dirty that stuff can be.


Yeah
My water supply is out of the Yadkin River
Pretty soft for city water but low kh
I had hard water in SC and everything died but mollies and other similar species

[wsdiscus]

I would use crushed coral in a nylon stocking in the filter... Your water is low in KH ..I have similar issue here. When you say "it can.drop below 6 with aging but is 6.8-7 out of the tap".Thats not the same kind of Aging we normally mean . In your Tank you have the nitrogen cycle that consumes your KH and brings your pH down if the KH isnt sufficient. You also.have off gassing as a factor .You can compensate for low KH with more volume and frequency of water change or you bump up the KH.An easy and cheap way to do that with crushed coral. I use it here alot in my non breeder tanks.If you dont buffer the water and you slack on the water changes or over feed /over stock you risk a pH crash. When that happens you cam really mess up your fish.(been there done that.)

I would suggest you get a 5 gal pail... fill it with water from the tap. Measure the pH and add an airstone. Let it aerate (Age/off gassing) 24 hours or at least overnight . Measure the pH again. That will tell your true pH. You may not need aging...just buffer or more water changes.

Hth,
Al

Ok Al,
I followed your instructions and aged a 5 g bucket of water overnight. The first 24 hours the pH dropped from 7.0 to 6.3
in 48 hours the pH dropped from 6.3 to 4.3! I couldn't believe it so i tested my tank 24 hours after a water change and my result was 5.8 (from 7.0 out of tap)
What is your recommendation at this point? I am running one Fluval 406 at the moment with Matrix, Purigen, and a water polisher along with the course black foam that comes with the filter. I have 13 Discus in a 75 g tank ( a little overcrowded i know) I have 2 bags of crushed coral in the bottom of the tank that i will move into the filter tomorrow....the reality is even with a daily water change, i will drop my pH more than .3 on a daily basis...there has to be a better way

[RogueDiscus]

Just catching up on this thread.I still think it's odd your test water dropped to 4.3. Can anyone with more experience explain this? I think Mervin's idea that your tap is buffered but then dissipates makes sense. I missed how big your fish are, but yes, you are over stocked in the 75 if they are semi-adults or bigger. Did you say you're changing about 50% every 3 days. Might not be enough kH for the load even if you had enough bacteria. Need more change volume? Just throwing some ideas out there for folks to add to.

[DJW]

I think there is something wrong with your pH tester. You can't get water to go as low as 4.3 unless you add an acid or inject a bunch of CO2. With a KH of 2 your aged water should end up closer to pH 7. Some electronic pH meters don't work well in very soft water. I would calibrate the meter and add 1/2 teaspoon of salt to the bucket and see what it reads.

Some water districts add hydroxide alkalinity to bump the pH up, but this is temporary because as the water ages the hydroxide alkalinity is converted by CO2 into bicarbonate alkalinity, which has a much smaller effect on pH. But the KH doesn't change since the KH test is measuring total alkalinity.

[RogueDiscus]

Thanks Dan! I'm going to give myself credit for trying to ask the right question.

Adding salt after calibrating is to adjust the meter for softness, right?

[DJW]

I'm assuming that Morgan is using an electronic pH meter. These meters need the water to have some conductivity in order to work right, so adding a pinch of salt is to increase the conductivity (TDS) of the water. It would only be to see if the meter is struggling in soft water. I have had cheepo meters that wandered around aimlessly in water with less than 20 or 30 ppm of TDS, but the good ones from American Marine seem to do better in soft water. The salt itself will change the pH slightly, but not enough to matter for this.

IME a KH of 2 is fine in a lightly stocked tank, but in a heavily stocked tank with WC every 3 days you might have pH drops big enough to be a problem, and some coral would be good as a backstop.

[JamesW]

Consistency is key, you could try adding a tablespoon of sodium carbonate (if you can find it) or baking soda to your water aging barrel for a week of water changes and re-testing your water. If you go down that path then you need to keep it up or taper it slowly. Crushed coral should have some effect, increasing that or increasing the water flow through it should help.

[JamesW]

Like Dan and Steve said, soft water will mess with an electronic pH meter and a pinch of sea salt will rectify the situation.
It sounds like you are working with almost pure water which is a great start for discus but I think that your crushed coral is doing a lot more than you think! It might have been preventing you from a catastrophic crash without you knowing it.

I would start from the beginning and use/get a chemical pH test kit to verify the electronic one:

Add a pinch of sea salt to your tap water (test)
Add a pinch of sea salt to your aged tap water (test)
Add a pinch of sea salt to your tank water (test)

The same test Al suggested but with an electrolyte (sea salt) for the electronic pH meter to work with.

If I were in this situation I would get a boat load of arm and hammer bicarbonate soda and make a saturated solution in a 5 gallon bucket (full bucket but with solid still present on the bottom) then start adding the same amount with every water change. Gradually increase it until you get yourself into a place with a reasonable margin of error/safety (Stendker have a KH of 8). Everyone loves doing water changes but sometimes life gets in the way and it'll only be made worse by coming home to a tank full of dead discus because you had a pH crash.

[wsdiscus]

Hi James
What chemical test can verify a digital pH meter?
The API kit won't measure below 6
How much baking soda would you dissolve in the 5 gallon bucket?

[RogueDiscus]

I'm interested in this reply. I assume distilled water should read 7.0, but what solutions to use for other calibrations. Most digitals come with calibration powders to make into solutions.

Note, he mentioned the saturated solution would still have solid on the bottom. You could just start adding until that happens. The water would then be saturated.

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi James
What chemical test can verify a digital pH meter?
The API kit won't measure below 6
How much baking soda would you dissolve in the 5 gallon bucket?

JBL wide range goes 3-10
https://www.jbl.de/en/products/detail/2432/jbl-ph-test-30-100
So does the wide range LaMotte, for about 4 times the price but probably more reliable by the same margin
https://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/products.php?mi=332713&itemnum=

[JamesW]

A chemical test is less sensitive to the conductivity of your water. It wouldn't be used to calibrate your pH meter just to confirm the measurement.

Saturated sodium bicarbonate is 1.56M, 5 gallons is 19L, so you get ~ 30 mol. Double that so you can saturate and keep using it, 60 * 84 *2.2 to get to lbs gives ~11 lbs of sodium bicarbonate.

[wsdiscus]

11 pounds of sodium in one 5 gallon bucket?

[JamesW]

Yes. Costco sells 13.5lbs for less than $10.

It'll be about half salt and half water mix it a couple times and let it settle and after that you should be good to go. Often it is easier to measure liquid accurately vs solid so it allows you to be more consistent in dosing with your WC. Top it up after each water change.

[wsdiscus]

Well that's convenient
I work at Costco!😂

[JamesW]

Any update on the pH's of your unaged, aged and tank water after adding some table salt?

[wsdiscus]

pH reading doesntSeem affected by the table salt I have ordered a chemical test kit that will test pH down to 4.5 so I'm hoping to confirm the readings with that I am using a seem affected by the tablesaw I have ordered a chemical test kit that will test pH down to 4.5 so I'm hoping to confirm the readings with that
Right now I am doing daily water changes to Reduce the chances of any pH crash

[Megalodon]

Just buy some pH buffer standard solution. I use these (https://www.hach.com/buffer-powder-pillows-ph-4-01-ph-7-00-pk-2x10/product?id=7640205090&callback=qs#) but most people buy liquid versions. They're everywhere on eBay, Amazon, and even your local hydroponics store.

[LizStreithorst]

You will be fine if you change water more often. I've kept Discus in straight RO which is 0 kH and 0 gH for long periods of time with no ill effect, but I changed 50% daily. You don't have to do that because you have some buffering in your water. I think that you will be fine with30% daily. Your gH numbers are fine. What you need to do, IMHO, is find a place for water storage in the house. Be creative. You can find a way that works for you. If there isn't some way to camouflage it so that is not noticed, make it appear to be a part of your decor.

If you care about your Discus, you will find a way. People do use coral but it is the second choice because it has to be monitored all the time. The best way is to change your water more often.

[JamesW]

What if Morgan goes on vacation? Gets sick? Travels for work? Needs to visit a relative?

Aging doesn't seem to be the problem, it is the low KH that is overwhelmed that leads to the drop in his pH after a couple of days.
If daily water changes are required to avoid a pH crash that'll kill his discus I don't think that's a great situation to be in and suggesting he doesn't care about his fish because he isn't doing 50% daily water changes or have space for an aging barrel is pretty ornery.