starting bare bottom with juveniles hoping for hi-tech planted by Christmas 2020

[MickO'S]

Ok so here goes

I broke down my 500l hi-tech planted aquarium mid May this year.

This is it before it was broken down
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1848/30518898158_5038c46d8a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NuRkah)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/NuRkah) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr


So now my new aquarium has arrived and has been built and fitted by my wonderful local fish shop.
Here's a couple of photos of the aquarium going in
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1884/29436277427_55fa9033e9.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LRbBJB)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/LRbBJB) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1877/29436277457_074596dae7.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LRbBK8)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/LRbBK8) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1874/44372426351_a645c6d314.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aB3hrD)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aB3hrD) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1856/30505377568_a90b79a5bb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NtE2XE)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/NtE2XE) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1848/43655525024_a216d2016a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29vFYDW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29vFYDW) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1887/29436112987_8c504bf88c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LRaLRr)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/LRaLRr) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1861/29436103047_8707e412a5.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LRaHU4)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/LRaHU4) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

And finally filling with ro water
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1889/44370565191_530326dc6b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aASKbF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aASKbF) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

[Paul Sabucchi]

Neat install, your old tank also looked smashing (would it not fit the other side of the fireplace? Just for the purpose of balancing the decor, or whatever other excuse you could think up to keep the tank!).
I love planted tanks and got a few on the go but never regretted the advice given by many on this forum to grow out juvies BB. In all honesty watching 10 or 12 discus growing up decently does not require any further embellishments so I am not in a hurry to start adding stuff in the tank.

[MickO'S]

Hey Paul

Thanks loved the old aquarium and scape, it was all a long term experiment to learn plants and softer water fish for my ultimate goal of discus fish ( ps I did try the soft sell to she who must be obeyed but did not get too far :D )

As for adding plants I'm going to do the same and wait till the little ones have become larger and they're apitates have slowed down.

The Dimensions of the aquarium are Length 1.5 meters Width .55 meter and height is .61 of a meter. (sorry for european measurements)
(approx 5ft x1ft 10 in x 2 ft) 500 liters

The sump is length .85 m width .40 m and height is .40 m
(approx 3 ft 10in x 1 ft 4 in x 1 ft 4 in) 140 liters
the sump has 4 chambers number 1 is just filter sock and return from aquarium
2 is approx 12 liters of jbl's sintomec and micromec. I have a 44 watt uv lamp to attach to my return line and a purigen reactor on the go.

Before the fish arrive i shall be installing a new piece of equipment to Ireland a Clarisea Sk-5000 Automatic which will tape the place of the filter socks and keep all solid waste out of the water as it goes through the return pipe from the main aquarium.

I have horid discus water here in our town, it come from the liffy river that spends its time meandering over limestone bedrock of Wicklow and Kildare before reaching us at the tap. The tds are about 205 ppm with a ph of 7.7 out of the tap which rises to 9.1 over the next 24 hours.
I have attemped to mitagiate this by runnimng my water through an ro system on the way to my aquarium where it is drip fed into the sump at the return chamber. currently at 5ppm tds. I shall be also remineralising with aged tap water which will also drip into the aquarium at approx 250 liters per day. This will be about the max water changes i can manage. I wont be a drip system per-se as 2 to 3 times per day ill be taking approx 80l out of the aquarium and letting the drip refill the sump back up before repeating the process.
On my last planted aquarium i tried the 90 - 100% water changes per day as a pratice and twice over a few months my rummy noses 45 out of 50 were wiped out from the nitrates and the ph swing caused by the terrible water (for Discus) here.
Thats why I'm buying the clarisea to remove the solid waste and take it out of the water column completly.

What does everone think of this for a plan so far ??

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi Mick, if your timeframe is to get the discus in within the next month or two in view of having them close to fully grown by Christmas 2020 that should give you plenty of time even if you start with really young ones. The similar 3 month old ones (2 and 1/2" or about 6 cm) I got over here were raised in Bologna where the water is also very hard (over 400 ppm) and alkaline but discus there grow just fine. Your pH once aged is a tad extreme, maybe some sphagnum peat in your ageing tank might just take the edge off that. Your plan to mix it with r/o sounds good, are you using a booster pump on your unit to increase efficiency and reduce waste? What are the Nitrates like in your tapwater? The consensus anyway seems to be that it is not just nitrates that adversely affect growth but also desolved organic cimpounds, bacterial counts and GOK what else so minimizing the amount of waste is definitely good. Probably homemade beef heart or similar mixes would best be avoided so maybe go more for granules and to a lesser proportion maybe some fish grated from frozen (it does not disintegrate and leftovers are easy to syphon out). Definitely a good daily cleaning routine also helps. Let's see what other advice you can get

[MickO'S]

hey Paul,
Yea I hope to get them at the end of the month and want them at about the 2.5 inch.

The main purpose of the last tank was as an experiment on. My angles, cardinals and cories all managed perfectly but on only two occasions over the approx 2 years of the aquarium running i had a major dieoff of rummy noses and rams with another few scares with the fish in general although no other dieoff just 3 to 6 hours of uneasy fish. I did get the water tested at my lfs the next day and all paramaters were normal. I feeel that it may have been a large clorine dosing that damaged and killed the most sensitive fish. Those who didn't die recovered well by the following afternoon after a i assume gassing off of the cholrine.
I think the RO water with maybe 20% aged tapwater should remedy any of these issues particularly because of the fact that all water returned will be 1l every ten mins for the ro and approx 200 mls every 10 mins for the aged tap water.
I do have a pump runnung full time on my ro unit and I'm getting a little over 150 l per 24 hours out of a possible 200l advertised. I'm pretty sure its the tempature of the water that causs this reduction in production,

Here's some photos of my sump,
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1850/29469920497_ebcc5fca58.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/LUa3Dx)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/LUa3Dx) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1843/43688524324_10724d2989.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29yB7co)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29yB7co) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Any suggestions for the one and a half spare chambers ?
I was thinking of k1 fluized media in the empty sump section 3 and not sure for the front half of the return section
any thoughts anybody

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

My opinion is that the biomedia you have put is probably enough (if as you do a fishless cycle it manages to transform ammonia added to reach a concentration of 4mg/l it means it is sufficient). Adding an excess of media will not purify the water any further. You could consider using the extra space for some system to remove nitrates (and possibly also other waste substances). Many here swear by Purigen, but you may also consider a plant refugium or an algae scrubber (or maybe even an anoxic filter)

[MickO'S]

anoxic filter mmmmmm whats that ? I'm off to google

[Paul Sabucchi]

No need to Google it, just look it up on your favourite Discus forum
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?130047-DIY-quot-Anoxic-Filtration-System-quot-eliminates-nitrates-Anyone-tried-this&highlight=Anoxic
Probably once the tank is cycled (maybe you could speed the process by adding good bacteria, something like Pure Aquarium Bomb or similar) you could try a plant refugium either with fast growing floating plants (water lettuce?) or even emersed plants planted in a basket of alfagrog. You seem to have plenty of headroom above your sump for it, all you need is a light for plant growth. Anyway no matter what you use to gobble up waste substances it is still imperative to reduce residue building up in the first place so avoid messy food, and clean the tank (and filter sock on the sump downpipe) thoroughly every day.

[MickO'S]

I'm running purigen reactor the last few years, once again in anticipation and for pratice for this new aquarium journey.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1863/44384375962_2e102061bf.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aC6wDq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aC6wDq) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
I have replaced the purigen with brand new stuff for the new aquarium

I have spent the day looking at the anoxic filter thread and think it may be a step to far for little baby discus but the algea scrubber will definately be an addition to the system in the next few weeks.

Any easy suggestions for a quick cycle, any company do better product than others ?? I've always used my other aquariums to seed next one but want to keep this one clean for the babbies. Thinking about it now its probably 25 years since i have not seeded a new aquarium

[Paul Sabucchi]

You could use something like this
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B07DJYMCTJ/ref=cm_cr_arp_mb_bdcrb_top?ie=UTF8
for either an algae scrubber or emergent plants

[MickO'S]

They are class Paul!

I think I’m going get those for the scrubber 👍.

I’m thinking of running a refrugium as well. Any plant suggestions?? From reading pothos seems like a useful plant. Might grow some semi-submerged plants but not decided yet.

Any suggestions, what do people think

Mick

[MickO'S]

Right, ammonia ordered and due to arrive Monday, I’m going to use sechem stability as it’s a lot easier to get here, having difficulty getting delivery directly to Ireland.

Getting test kit too to keep up with the readings to see how things are cycling:)

Will be setting up my tap water aging system over the next two or three days as well, air pump and heater all ready to go, just need an airstone to keep it moving.

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

I use a wavemaker rather than an airstone to move the water while ageing. Sunsun JVP 100

[MickO'S]

Nice !
I have a couple of spare powerheads so one of them it is !

I have a large heater that I’ll add. What’s the story with adding safe to the system? How long does it need to age ?? I’m going to set it up to drip to the sump like my ro water !

I’ll do photos later to document it all

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Seachem Prime or Safe (that is the same thing in powder form) works immediately. It neutralises chlorine and if it was not in the form of plain hypochlorite but as chloramines it will also bind the resulting ammonia until the bacteria deal with it. Ageing the water on the other hand is more to allow gasses that were desolved in the water under pressure to disperse, this way you will avoid pH changes and microbubbles. If your tapwater contains only a reasonable amount of chlorine (but not chloramines) then ageing will also allow it to disperse without the need to use Safe. If though in the past the water company has done sudden use of a lot of chlorine I would not take a chance. Some people instead of Safe/Prime just buy sodium thiosulfate powder

[MickO'S]

Hey guys,

Right heres where I am with my install and "automation" (although soft automation as there is some imput from myself)

So, on my outside tap I have t'eed off my water....
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1878/43813351614_93667fd9fd.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29KCT13)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29KCT13) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

So then at the far side of house the line is seperated into two, the black one goes to the tap water barrel and the white and blue line goes to my ro unit.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1848/44481044992_e6c4a99451.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aLCYYQ)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aLCYYQ) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1894/29593292757_a37527fd5f.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/M64mVt)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/M64mVt) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

The barrell holds approx 100 liters of water with about 40l per hour going in. There is a powerhead and a 300 w heater in the barrell. Daily i shall add seachem safe to condition the water. The water leaves the barrel to approx 38l per hour directly to the aquarium. this leaves a small surpless of water that goes to the drain but this ensures that the barrel remains full and my heater does not run dry.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1895/30660877048_27664bb7b5.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NHp1xb)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/NHp1xb) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
(small green line water in, large green line overlfow to drain.

Then the other line goes to my ro unit with tds meter
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1888/43621651325_b32d294e0d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29sGnbD)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29sGnbD) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

These both go through a pipe in my wall to the aquarium.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1858/44481043632_ff36ce9456.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aLCYzo)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aLCYzo) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

then to the last section in my 4 section sump.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1874/42722227470_673e08f909.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/286dzNN)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/286dzNN) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

This pipe also which is in section 2 also serves as the overflow to the drain outside my house.

My return pipe to my aquarium sits approx 1.5 " below the surface of the water in the main display tank. When I turn off my return approx 60l of water gets back siphoned out of my aquarium
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1900/43622551435_ccb9f09b47.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29sLYKM)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29sLYKM) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
This adds to the 40l of water that that overflows my sump meaning 90l of water leaves the aquarium at the flick of a switch 3 times a day. changing in total 300 liters of water per day with approx 350l returning to the system on a drip basis.

There are two more pieces of equipment to add to the system before introduction of fish.

I've also just started my fishless cycle with seachem stability and my ammonia is arriving tomorrow or monday to start dosing that.

so thoughts please
Mick
PS Paul this is a great idea for sodium thaisulphate, did not know of its existance before your post. Its for photography devolopment and as cheap !!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Should you want to use it, 60g of crystals in 1 liter of water. Of that you use 2 drops x 5 liters water to de-chlorinate.

[MickO'S]

Well ........
When I did an honest assessment my overflow method of removing water from the system it was not what I calculated! so I have re-evulated and changed up the water replacment method.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1847/44507524212_03e5c951a5.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aNYGk7)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aNYGk7) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

In the photo above, the pipe comes from the small pump on the right hand side and on the top left of the photo goes out of my overflow. The pump will switch on on a timer approx 5 - 8 times a day for 5 mins or so taking approx 300 l of water out of the system. I will have to figure the exact details of this but will update the thread when I figure out the exact numbers.

Mick

[MickO'S]

Right,

I got my Purigen reactor dialed in perfectly. All media is fluidised nicely with all but the smallest pieces making its way through the three sponges coarse, fine and one sowed into a section of tights with tiny holes. The water then makes its way out of the outflow pipe with a non return valve this is then covered in a pair of tights tights cable tied to the end of the outlet / return hose to catch the bits that do make it out.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1897/30686845598_9d98b243ee.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/NKG75N)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/NKG75N) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1868/29633605927_0b0838fdb1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/M9BYC8)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/M9BYC8) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1867/44571800521_3ec568ca85.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aUE8rk)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aUE8rk) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1856/44571800901_9ea9beda88.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aUE8xT)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aUE8xT) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

I also have my pothos cuttings with their toes sitting in the water waiting to grow some roots to help with my nitrates when they start.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1876/43661595405_6ed1a30d1c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29we6aF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29we6aF) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

I have ordered some of the bits and pieces for my algae scrubber, I intend to follow the video that Joey (king of diy) put out a couple of years ago and I'll continue documenting here.

I really hope this will work for the baby discus.
Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

When building the scrubber the tricky bit is roughening up enough the plastic mesh thingy to allow the algae to adhere to it. You sure are engineering a complicated setup with all the bells and whistles. For now I just rely on massive daily water changes, one big water change is a lot more effective than many small ones. I will follow closely the progress as at some point in the distant future when we return to the UK I will limit myself to only one or two tanks, but absolutely MASSIVE (ideally 12' + in length) so it will require a fair bit of automation.

[MickO'S]

Paul a 12 ft aquarium would be amazing ! You will have to buy or build the new house around the tank not the other way around:D:D

Maybe a few lessons will be learned along the way with automation of this by many, Hopefully they will mostly be positive lessons :bomb: and not to many disasters but from reading through all the threads here on the entire forum there are lots more disasters than successes.
I'm looking forward to the journey though.

On my last large aquarium I changed from rift lake African cichlids to soft water fish to do a 3 year experiment in preparation for discus, the only thing I changed was platinum angels instead of discus. All other perams were the same, I followed the advice of this forum on my water change regime and twice over the the space of 3 months all the most sensitive fish were wiped out (rams and rummynoses). I was sad to see these fish go and the helplessness of not being able fix it as it was a tap water problem so further water changes would have compounded the problem so was helpless to change the outcome and had to watch as the fish struggled and died. This is a different proposition with Discus, I cant allow that particular problem do the same to them so that is why I have created the system I have to create the most consistent system with I hope no spikes in parameters of any kind.

I'm interested in how this will turn out.

Mick

[MickO'S]

Hey,

I’m going to add 4 colour strains of discus to my aquarium with from Tony Tan or Stendker.
Anybody any positive or negative experience with one supplier over the other or are they similar and comparable?

I’m either going to get 4 sets of 3 or 4 so either 12 or 16 discus in total.
What do people think on numbers of discus for my system??

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Have you seen any Stendker fish that your retailer gets? I have seen some not very pretty Stendker fish sent to Italy, pigeonbloods with lots of peppering and quite black blue diamonds (just ugly blue diamonds, not dark knights). Probably they must send here mostly "C" grade fish so I hope the ones sent to your retailer are better. I agree with you that some type of fish are more demanding than others, there is definitely an issue with intensively farmed Rams. I have found raising my discus pretty straightforward and from what I have seen there are plenty of first time discus keepers here who have had good results and 0 problems, mainly because they have done their homework: got good fish from a reputable source, not mixed them with any other fish of dodgy origin, kept them in an uncluttered and constantly cleaned tank, given them plenty of clean water and good food. The "help my fish are knocking on St Peters Doors" posta tend to be mostly from people who have set up their first discus tank doing just about everything Al tells not to do in the really useful talk put on YouTube by Joey. Once you start trying to bend Fishkeeping to suit our aesthetic preferences rather than the fish's requirements is when things start to go sideways. I am lucky my tapwater is quite good, comes straight down from the mountains nearby with about 100 ppm TDS, KH 2-3, pH 7.5 stable. I actually keep all sorts, bar the more demanding, 2 big tankfulls of mbuna, 1 big planted low tech tank full of Southamerican carachins, loricarids and dwarf cichlids, a nano planted southeast Asian (Trichogaster chuna, Taeterundina ocellicauda, Oryzias woworae, Boraras maculatus), the discus and other 5 assorted tanks with no major issues for years. I tend to keep what thrives in this water and give them plenty of it. I only use my r/o filter to make water to replace what is evaporated by the cooling fans. When we return to the UK I will have to have a good look at what quality water we get (not quite sure if returning to Staffordshire/Cheshire or going to North Wales) and take it from there
As for big tanks it is probably going to be a self build along the lines of how my friend in Florida has done a number of times
https://youtu.be/yPt3XlIXjCk

[MickO'S]

:D:D:D:D:D

Hopefully this wont turn into "knocking on St Peters door" thread. That's a great analogy :D:D. I understand that it may as my methods have been untried and untested but are born out of experience of what has not worked for me and trying not to allow the same problems to reoccur.................. but we'll see !!

I know I can get really healthy stock from my lfs, its a great shop and they work hard to supply the best. I know the resident discus expert will do the very best he can to give me clean healthy stock. All that said who knows what get thrown that is initially undetectable or slips through so a little luck is always needed.

I must be honest about the look of the small fish in the shop, I have looked at them and they look nice but I have not studied them. Thanks to your responses Paul I'm going to start studying the fish individually rather than looking at the general group.

Italy looks like such a wonderful place, I bet leaving will be very difficult. I've spent a bit of time in Stafford and Wales bioth are such beautiful places that can be made all the better by a monster 12' discus aquarium:D

again, thanks for all the advice

Mick

[MickO'S]

So ........... the fishless cycle has begun.

I started off with seachem stability on Thursday expecting my ammonia to arrive Saturday. I dosed the stability as per instructions on the bottle but the ammonia did not arrive until today (Tuesday) so 5 days of a delay in starting with the feeding of the new bacteria. Hopefully this wont delay things too much and that there is some bacteria already starting to take.

I bought a glass dropper to dose the ammonia as I have read it will melt plastic.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1864/44614479571_7f52e17def.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aYqSr2)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aYqSr2) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

I added 6 droppers of the ammonia below, I saw a youtube video that indicated approx 1 dropper per 20 gallons so I went with that.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1846/29675090747_7a2661ee26.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MdhABD)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MdhABD) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

After leaving the aquarium pump to do the ammonia mixing for me for an hour I started the test for ammonia to see my concentration level in the aquarium.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1890/43894141694_4341ae33bc.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29SLX5s)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29SLX5s) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

This is the result after the 5 mins sitting resting and development.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1886/29675090777_22b5ba2ac6.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MdhACa)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MdhACa) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

To me this is reading between 2 and 4 ppm so thats a good start for today.

Tomorrow I'll check ammonia and nitrite to see if there is any bacteria at all at work in the system yet............ the next waiting game begins.

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Looks like you are properly set up now it is a bit like in the army: hurry up and wait. Patience is the name of the game. We are thinking of moving back in about 15 years or so (have to wait for most of our rescue animals to pop their clogs first), we have more family in the UK than over here and hopefully everyday things are still a little more straightforward in the UK. Pity because it sure is nice around here, this is were we had breakfast this morning (as most mornings)

[MickO'S]

Your house is the same as ours Paul, it runs to the beat of the animals. You live in an amazing place but being close to family is more important than any place.

Ok so started adding seachem stability about ten days ago now and ammonia on Tuesday.

Tuesday
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1886/29675090777_22b5ba2ac6.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MdhACa)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MdhACa) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Thursday
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1879/44602338882_b854e3ffff.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aXmDqN)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aXmDqN) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1897/44652424611_3ce788540a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2b2MmaR)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2b2MmaR) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1862/44654308721_d125940cd8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2b2X1fv)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2b2X1fv) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Saturday
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1848/29774063177_33746420f9.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Mn2RER)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Mn2RER) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

This is going to be a long wait !!!!
No changes in the week, I'm heading away for the week so maybe when I get back there will be some nitrite readings, but who knows !!

The waiting game has well and truly begun
Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

If you think it is taking a long time to see nitrites, it is going to take a lot longer to see nitrates! If nothing has happened when you get back you can try to chuck something else in -or just wait!

[snxtif]

A bit off topic, but is it only me or the NO3 testing is kinda PITA?
Like, we have to shake the bottle rigorously for 5 mins,
drop 10 in, cap on and shake rigorously... and for some reasons, it seems to leak every time.
(I think it generates gas or something) etc etc...

and 10ppm and 20ppm color difference.... ugh....

[Paul Sabucchi]

As mentioned previously the NO3 API test does have an issue, the reagent tends to crystalize and precipitate in the bottle, possibly something to do with the fact that some form of zinc is required for the chemical reaction? Some people just leave the bottle fixed to the airpump with an elastic band, vibrations will do the job for you. Anyway no need to test nitrates untill nitrites have peaked. During cycling and the first few months you will be testing a lot, so the API test makes sense. Once things are ticking along you will be testing only once in a blue moon so once you run out buy a Sera test instead, separate zinc filings (+ 3 bottles of different liquids)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Oh, if you are wondering how the Sera test is to use:
- fill big glass vial with 10 ml tank water (and the mark on the vial used to be off by as much as 2 ml, better lately)
-add six drops of liquid 1 and shake
-add micro-spoonful of metal powder 2,shake for 15 seconds
-add six drops of liquid 3 and shake
-add 6 drops of liquid 4 and shake
Wait 5 minutes and read

[MickO'S]

Ok so,
I'm back from my few days away with some interesting (to me anyway) on my test kit

When I went away my ammonia was between 3 and 4 with nitrite and nitrate at 0

Ammonia
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1845/29922781987_699b3655a8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MAb5Ag)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MAb5Ag) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
To me this looks about .25ppm, This reduction in ammonia could be completely or partially a result of the drip system that was running at about 70% with no water being manually removed only flowing over the sump drain to the outside.

Nitrite
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1904/30986745378_17b24b6cf7.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/PdcaQE)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/PdcaQE) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
Absolute zero, this suggests the ammonia is reducing because of the drip overflow. this would at least show proof of concept of the drip system being able to manage some ammonia's. I wonder how much different this would have looked with the manual removal of 70 liters a number of times a day. The same water would have gone through the system but the removal would have been different.

Nitrate
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1854/44138356744_701b6bc7ca.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2afmBGL)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2afmBGL) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
This makes my last thoughts on the nitrites a little redundant as there is about 5 ppm of nitrate in the water. That means the cycle has well and truly begun.

This aquarium was started completely clean without seeding from another aquarium. I did add Seachem Stability as per instructions for a week at the start of the cycle about 2 weeks ago now.

I'M going to add ammonia at about 4ppm and leave it 24 hours to see how it processes that amount in a set period of time to know how much ammonia is being processed already !.
This appears to be happening quicker than i expected. I'm looking forward to what tomorrow brings !!

Mick

[MickO'S]

Ok more progress,

Ammonia
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1931/43969315735_2aaebe9740.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29ZqeGB)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29ZqeGB) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
My ammonia was about the 4 colour on the scale. As is shown in this photo its down to about .50, some serious bacteria in that stability. It seems to be working for me.

Nitrite
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1947/29944221107_5364f078fb.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MC4XGg)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MC4XGg) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
This is about .25 so good progress on this too.

Nitrate
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1927/43068982410_3895d2569d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28BRMYf)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/28BRMYf) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
About 5 on this reading.

I've taken a reading after i added ammonia to make sure I have the amount added dialed in,
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1936/43969315605_93df79b71d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29ZqeEn)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29ZqeEn) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
I guess this is somewhere between 2 and 4, I think closer to 4.

I'll have a look tomorrow to see how this continues progressing

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

We'll see how the ammonia drops over the next few hours, good to see the drip overflow is working but what is the point of having it working as the tank is cycling?

[MickO'S]

Hey Paul,

In the 24 hours between yesterday and today you see a really good approx. a 3.5 point drop in ammonia. This is really on the road to cycling certainly from ammonia to nitrite with some changes on the nitrate so bacteria exists already.

As for the drip system, its mixing ro and tap into the aquarium I'm working on stabilizing the ph in the aquarium and at the point I want it at while the aquarium is cycling. It would be a pain to have to spend another few weeks balancing the ph after the cycle finished.
I'm not in a rush for the cycle either even though it is moving on at a pace. From the time I order my baby discus it will be approx 2-4 weeks for the lfs to get them in and another 2 weeks quarantine in the shop so that's 4-6 weeks from now so that's plenty of time at this point to get the aquarium fully cycled and the ph perfectly stable giving my best chance of some modicum of success with the babies.

That's the theory any way :confused::confused:

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Sounds good, things are happening fast (although bacteria that transform nitrite into nitrate are even slower to multiply than the ones that transform ammonia).

[MickO'S]

Thanks Paul, your information and responses are invaluable to my project!

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Just can't wait to see fish in your tank! I can imagine you must be even more eager!

[MickO'S]

Right today's update,

The results,
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1978/44896218601_0d34c5161e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bpjRCv)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bpjRCv) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Ammonia
This has moved about 3.5ppm again in the last 24 hours so this is becoming a pattern, how many days will this last ??

Nitrite
is now 1ppm which is a big move from 3 days ago when it had a barely detectable but now there is a seriously heavy colour in the liquid.

Nitrate
This is a serious reaction to the chemical in this one, it's between 10 and 20 ppm


So far I find this an interesting process. As I said back at the start of the thread I have always done a cycle bringing media from my other aquariums. This one I wanted to do the best possible job i can so this is my first fishless cycle and all this is new to me. I have no idea where in the process I am but its great to see the changes happening.

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

I would think within a week you would be good to go, anyway with the delay between ordering the fish and bringing them home you have plenty of time to spare. So time to get that order in, have you decided what strain/s and how many?

[MickO'S]

I am putting in the order tomorrow so now is my last decision time !

I spent a few weeks weeks going through colours of discus involving my wife and son in the decision. Then I decided on exact strains and from where I wanted them and wrote it down. Funnily I found a list of discus I had prepared about 4 years ago and the list was the same.

So I'm getting 12 discus, 4 sets of 3 discus.
3 blue diamonds
3 red checkerboards
3 flame red discus
and 3 blue snakeskin or other similarly patterned fish. My hesitation is the peppering on snakeskins that people talk about. Any thoughts on this ??

Mick

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Mick, it is not snakeskins that pepper but PB discus. Most likely the checkerboards are PB and the flame red discus might be. In many of the modern PB strains peppering has be greatly reduced but some environmental factors can bring out some peppering like dark substrate, dark background (to a lesser extent) and any stress factors...illness, bullying, poor water quality etc. Note that there are PB snakeskins.
Pat

[Paul Sabucchi]

What Pat said! If you want nice "clean" fish make sure you tell your retailer clearly (maybe even by email or WhatsApp so you have it in writing), on the off chance what arrives from Germany is not up to the standard you expect

[MickO'S]

Hey Pat and Paul,

Just shows the depth of knowledge I have when it comes to Discus:o
I've been dealing with my lfs for as long as its open, maybe 12 or 14 years and have always proved reliable. This is the first time ordering discus so will definitely will be having a longer conversation with them. The specialist discus man in store has already taken an interest in my setup and wont let anybody else have any input into the fish I'm getting. Hopefully this translates to quality discus.
I could easily be my own worst enemy in this situation as I could so easily get carried away and accept the fish on offer rather than hold out for the best fish available.

My hope is that they order a group of 10 or so of each colour and I will get first pick on them by being the first in store when they arrive. From what I have observed in the past they do order their fish in about this quantity when the order them in.

Maybe this will be a bit of a fanciful notion as to how things will play out but I cant allow this project that is 4 years (and more if I'm honest) in the making stumble because I let myself get carried away.

Thanks again for the input guys

Mick

[MickO'S]

Well

Last night we had a two and a half hour power cut and I'm fascinated to know if this has had any negative affect on the cycling process,

so here goes ....!
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1931/44911658441_66107171a7.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bqFZmD)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bqFZmD) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Well thats some reaction by the ammonia bacteria! Down from a large and solid 4ppm to .25ppm, thats some change for 24 hours.

The nitrite is now reading really high at between 2 and 5ppm. I wonder how that will change over the next 24 hours, will it continue to rise or will it start to keep up and get processed into nitrate or will it continue to rise.

The nitrate is on the rise too, its now between 20 and 40ppm. I dont know will this start to get dealt with by bacteria at all, (anaerobic bacteria) that appears to take longer to establish from what I have read and watched on youtube.

At the end of this week if my cycle has completed, or whenever it does I will start my water change process fully and will be able to assess its efficacy in managing nitrates in my aquarium................... Its a wonderfully interesting process !!

Mick

[MickO'S]

The only change today is nitrite and nitrate are slightly lighter in colour, at least I'm still moving forward........

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1971/44949252831_a4bc9bd662.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bu1ERM)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bu1ERM) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

signing off for today

Mick

[MickO'S]

Well,
I bought a couple of plumbing fittings to make a better system to get the water out for the water change, It's a T fitting with the pipe going from the small pump on a timer that takes 65 liters of water out 3 times a day at 8 hour intervals. the two lines coming out of the top of the T fitting are the aged tapwater and ro water returning to the tank. This is not fully set at the moment just where it is at the moment.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1928/44055446195_745dba1df8.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2a82Fhx)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2a82Fhx) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
The t fitting facing the top of the tank raises the height of the water allowing for the bigger water change, up from about 45 liters.

The ammonia is just about there, 4ppm in 24 hours, The nitrite and nitrate still have a way to go to be efficient, but heading in the right direction.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1954/30012615037_1a24150245.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MJ7uPX)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MJ7uPX) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

My next project is the algae scrubber which will be in place by early next week.

Was talking to the staff at the lfs and it seems like there will be a good wait for the discus, a little disappointing but I'll have everything well and truly tested by then

Mick

[MickO'S]

So ..............

I added another full pot of pothos to my sump,
This boredom of not having fish to occupy my time makes lots of time for tinkering !!:grin:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1960/45027911802_bb972aa5c0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bAXPqW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bAXPqW) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

This is probably way more than needed but they certainly wont do any harm to the setup. With the level of nitrates in the water they wont starve either!!

I also started my algae scrubber ala Joey King of DIY (ps some video last night. Impressive)
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1971/30144856897_f65cac66a1.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/MVNgJ2)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/MVNgJ2) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

I had a decent nano BLAU planted aquarium led light that puts out some serious light. I have the backing box in place but no cover over the light yet and unsure what I'll do to shade the light but probably just another tub. I have the plastic mesh ordered, €1.62 but can only find it in the uk, €10 for delivery :bomb: how annoying but no real harm.

With light on
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1957/44355889894_4d0d326462.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2azzwJj)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2azzwJj) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
to bright not to do some sort of cover.

I'm not doing water tests for a few days, maybe next week, I'll just keep adding ammonia to continue the cycle and see has there been any changes in nitrite and nitrate then !

Mick

[MickO'S]

So a little over a week since my last update,

In that week my aquarium has finished cycling and its only a matter of feeding the bacteria now until the fish arrive.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/44555318464_c1cda8821f.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aTcDTW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aTcDTW) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

My auto-water change system has been functioning now for about two weeks and has not missed a beat despite a couple of electricity cuts in our area. The overflow safety worked perfectly and the back-siphoned water from the main aquarium just flowed out the drain on the sump as was built into the the designed of the system.
(Video on time lapse, takes 8 minutes in real time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYpUAzRrbZc


My DIY algae scrubber is also functioning well mechanically. The algae is starting to grow on the cable ties and other surfaces but not on the mesh. Obviously I have not roughed it up enough to let the stick. I'll let it alone for another week or so and see then but if it has not worked by then its out with the sandpaper again.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUw8EYdekX4

I put a black cover on the back of the light just to stop the light bleeding out into the rest of the sump area.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1911/45271122592_635846b8ed.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskwq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskwq) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr


My pothos is growing really well in my sump, It's growing large glossy and strong waxy green leaves, and it looks great.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1906/45271122782_67533b164c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskzG)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskzG) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr


The root system is where most of the growth is coming from. They are on a serious charge to the bottom of the sump so they will always be in contact with the water. It has 2 hours contact time and 2 hours out of the water because of the water flowing out during the auto-water and reducing the level in the sump.
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1906/45271122772_c29ddcb4a0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskzw)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskzw) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr


I've worked out all the figures on the water changes that happen every day.
There is 112% of the entire aquarium volume being changed out every day (24 Hours) with approx 17% of total water volume being removed from the system every 4 hours along with another 3% or so overflowing during the last 20 mins of the 4 hours between changes.

My ph is heading a little high from this level of water change and I may have to dial it back to 100% maybe even 90% per 24 hours, I'll just have to see.

I have changed the point at which my water returns to my aquarium, The three returns now have their own pipe for getting into the sump area. I had the water pipes going through the Outflow / overflow pipe but thought there was too much of a risk getting a blockage and potentially causing a flood, thats fixed now though with this change.
New pipe photo with two water pipes and an air line for the algae scrubber
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1931/45271122952_56bb493e22.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskCC)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bYskCC) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr


I'm getting a single pump doser to add safe mixed with ro water to always have tap water nasties covered that may get past the aging barrel.

I think that's all my progress for the week covered.

My fish have been ordered and and I'm getting 5 different varieties of Stendker discus and a total of 14 fish.

Cant wait,
Mick

[MickO'S]

So ................

My LFS ordered my fish from stendker discus on Friday for me :D 14 or 15 fish arriving for me in the shop in the next 7 to 14 days and then they say a two week quarantine after that. I'll wait and see if they are as diligent about this as they say they are ! I'm hoping they are but its a big space commitment so I'll see but will push for what they have already told me.

My Ammonia and Nitrates are smashing 0 every 24 hours after adding 4ppm bottled ammonia to my water
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1949/31745962998_067c0816e9.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QnhmMC)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QnhmMC) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

but my nitrates are are heading up to between 40 and 80ppm
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1938/43800699630_2a1413b463.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/29Jw31o)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/29Jw31o) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
In some lights the reading is more 40 and others its more 80pppm.

Any thoughts on this guys ????

Mick

[MickO'S]

Rather than any thoughts as a question.............. is nitrate this high a normal part of the cycle and will it settle down after a while, its very high and I'm not happy with it !!!

Mick

[Second Hand Pat]

Mick, once nitrates just really high and I think you are there it is my understanding it can stall your cycle. Try doing a 50% water change to bring the nitrates down. My guess is you want them under 40. For adding fish you want them 5 or under.
Pat

[MickO'S]

Thanks Pat,

I luckily have a few weeks to get this sorted! I’ll do a couple of water changes and see how it goes!

There is nothing easy about this hobby !
I haven’t even got fish and I’m stressed off my head !!

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

I'd do as Pat suggested and do a water change. While you wait these 3-4 weeks you can reduce the ammonia to 2 ppm and bump it up again 4-5 days before you collect your discus (the day before BIG water change and no more ammonia)

[MickO'S]

This has worked out great guys.
Down to 5ppm nitrate, I've reduced the ammonia I'm adding by half and this has had the desired affect.

My next project is setting up my dosing unit to add my seachem safe to keep the tap nasties in check.

Mick

[MickO'S]

Wahoo :)) My fish have arrived in the store today :))

Paul, after you asked me on your thread had they arrived I decided to call the shop. The fish had just arrived and an out of breath shop worker was unboxing them.

Ill head over the the shop tomorrow and take a look and a few photos of them and maybe a video.

Thats the last of the procrastination now !!. Im going to have to get the last of the equipment hooked up and running to give myself at least a week to test it before fish arrive


Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

This is when the rubber meets the road! Exciting times!

[MickO'S]

Yes,
Where all my theories and systems are tested in real life with live animals depending on them !
I’m accepting that I won’t grow out monsters in my system but good sized and shaped fish will keep me happy 😊
Here in Ireland I have not seen to many 8 inch + fish, 7 inch by top breeders is about the best around! Anywhere over 6.5 inch will be success. (I think anyway 🤔)

Well ! Time will now tell how it goes.

Mick

[danotaylor]

Sweet Mick!! What variants did you get in? Looking forward to seeing them mate!

[MickO'S]

Thanks Danotaylor :)

I decided on a mixed aquarium of fish, all Stendker but a mixed bag of colours !
I'm getting 5 set of 3 so 15 fish in total.

I have ordered
3 Blue Diamonds
3 Solid Fire Reds
3 Pigeon Blood Blue
3 Pigeon Blood reds
3 Leopard Snakeskins

They are between 6.5cm and 8cm in size so young but not but hopefully not impossible !!! lets hope they are good !!!!!

Mick
Ps not even sure they could get what I had ordered but I'll happily make do :)

[danotaylor]

Alright Mick, sounds like a nice mix you ordered there. Looking forward to seeing them in your care mate! After your wc's you can sit back, blow the froth of a Guinness or 2 and enjoy watching them grow!

[MickO'S]

Here's some photos of the discus in the shop, they're just random shots as nothing was marked up or described. Don't know which ones are mine but they all look great, I'll take more photos from the store on Wednesday when I'm back there !

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4864/45071616694_034cce974b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2bEPPny)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2bEPPny) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4830/31924887368_5a49df4b09.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QD6oLy)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QD6oLy) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4894/31924887728_0776290d45.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QD6oSL)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QD6oSL) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4824/45746843122_25b9116675.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cGuwEw)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2cGuwEw) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4830/31924887738_47cf7d414a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QD6oSW)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QD6oSW) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4853/45746327342_8ec9b5232a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cGrTkL)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2cGrTkL) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4913/45799443821_fd901e38fa.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cM9828)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2cM9828) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

They look like nice fish to me.............. but I don't know much, We'll see how they look in a years time ............ if they survive

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

They seem pretty decent to me!

[MickO'S]

Thanks Paul :))

Hopefully next week at some stage I’ll be getting them 👍

Mick

[MickO'S]

Ok folks,

Now that I have see my fish this stuff is getting real,
While waiting on the fish i had time to put together a little video of the putting together of the sump. I'm also going to do individual videos on each element and component that I have included in my sump. Some of it may be useful to someone !


http://youtu.be/8FGFBtkzZC0


Mick

[MickO'S]

Wahoo !! Getting my fish today 👍

And suggestions about transferring them from the bags to the aquarium?? I’m about 25 minutes from the store so no extreme ammonia issues. My water is 3degrees harder, their ph is 7.4 mine is 7.8 !

What do people think??
Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Parameters are reasonably similar, your moderately higher pH and hardness should not be a issue so you can just "drop and plop", i.e. drop the bags still closed in the tank and float a few minutes to equalise temperature, then you can plop the fish straight in. I find the easiest way is with a bucket and a sieve, the one made out of plastic mesh like you can get from pound (or euro) shops, better than ordinary nets because the fish don't get tangled. Put the sieve over the bucket and pour the bag through the sieve, put fish in the tank, empty bucket, repeat!

If you want to be extra safe you could lower your hardness with r/o water to match that of the shop. Usually going from lower to higher salinity is less stressfull (from a physiology pount of view) than the oppsite. This is basically because at a cellular level it is easier to keep water inside the cell as the salinity outside it increases compared to keeping it out if it decreases - so in a nutshell you should be good to go anyway

[MickO'S]

As always Paul,

Thanks so much for the advice!
I’d be lost without you !

It turned out that the shop ph for the discus is kept at 6 as opposed to the rest of the shop which is heigher !

I did an hour and a half drip with an air stone and a heater.

All my fish have been put together in one tank, John in the shop suggested I take 3 fish home and see how it goes for 2 days. Then come back and get the water tested and take more a few more. I’ll do that Sunday!
The shop are class !! They care about every fish!!

The fish seem very comfortable and active.
I put a few pellets into the tank and I have seen 1 take a nibble.

Let’s hope it keeps going!!!

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Cool, photos?

[MickO'S]

Right !!!!
It’s really difficult to take photos of discus in a large aquarium!!!!

I’ll keep trying and post the best of them 😂😂

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

It's like shooting fish in a barrel -litterally!

[MickO'S]

😂😂😂 it so is 😂😂😂

[MickO'S]

ok.......

A very poor attempt at photographing !!

Even on video they are so small in the aquarium !!!

well here goes
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4820/46018088751_a67b692506.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2d7sJxi)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2d7sJxi) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4838/45294076384_a6d88aa865.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2c1tYTs)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2c1tYTs) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4908/32147370138_0aed6e33db.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QYKF9o)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QYKF9o) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

All going well there will be the next batch of fish to follow tomorrow morning
My job for the afternoon is going to the photo section and learn how to take photos !!

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Nice looking fish, by what you can see in the small photos, can't blow them up as the originals on flikr are set as private?

[MickO'S]

Didn't even know that that was an option to have different settings hehehehe

I'm not great at this computer lark !!!

its changed now to public

Thanks for the interest as always !! It makes it easier to post when somebody is looking :)

Ill try to get better at this photography buzz and keep posting here !!

Mick

[danotaylor]

nice Mick...assuming these are the red pigeons? Did you receive all the fish you listed in your order?

[Paul Sabucchi]

He said these are just a few of them, kind of an advance squad to make sure the new home is ok, the others are in temporary holding at the fish shop

[danotaylor]

He said these are just a few of them, kind of an advance squad to make sure the new home is ok, the others are in temporary holding at the fish shop
:thumbsup:

[MickO'S]

hehehe Yep:thumbsup:

These are the advanced infantry marching ahead of the troops seeing are there any landmines or hidden traps to catch them out !

The fish shop were good enough to quarantine all my fish in 1 closed system together and let me take them a few at a time. If my water params are ok i'll take maybe 6 more tomorrow.
If not they can stay together for a few more days in the shop !

Here's a quick clip of of them eating like little beasties already

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFwDFSVfkdA

This is the easy bit !! from all the posts I have read it takes a few weeks before disaster hits !!!

I'm waiting and seeing ...............

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Woah! Brazen little toe-rags. Going by their appetite once you get the whole lot in your tank they will easily polish the left-overs from Christmas lunch! If they all start off like this, as long as you keep up water quality, the other shoe should never drop!

[danotaylor]

This is the easy bit !! from all the posts I have read it takes a few weeks before disaster hits !!!
They are ravenous lil buggers. Even polite to each other at the dining table ;)
Like Paul said, if you maintain good water quality you should be fine. IMO people start well then get lazy with their water change regime, THEN trouble strikes...

[MickO'S]

Ok the marching band has arrived to celebrate the successful takeover of the of new territory hehehe The advanced troops found no enemy hahaha

Lets hope that there are no enemy hiding in plain sight waiting to catch me out hahaha :D

On Wednesday or Thursday the top brass should be arriving to survey the new territory won !!!!!

I don't know where the war references came from............. it just feels like a battle being described by all these threads

so here are the latest photos of my 6 new fish !
3 blue diamonds and
3 Blue pigeons

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4818/45996500072_5f9384fdf2.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2d5y5YG)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2d5y5YG) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4906/31107362817_2e97eb0565.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/PoRncF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/PoRncF) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4906/31107362817_2e97eb0565.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/PoRncF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/PoRncF) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4836/45996497702_3f26d3d840.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2d5y5gQ)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2d5y5gQ) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4817/45996499882_d5922f200c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2d5y5Vq)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2d5y5Vq) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

I hope ye like the troops........

Mick

[danotaylor]

nice one mate :thumbsup:

[MickO'S]

Cheers Dano :)

Mick

[Second Hand Pat]

Congrats on the new troops Mick. What size are they?
Pat

[MickO'S]

Ahhh Pat ......
I was either stupid or brave !! These are 6.5 cm or 2.5 inch !!! I’m looking for trouble but I hope to be able to stay ahead of it !!!!!
6 more next week and they are 8cm or 3.5 inch

Love it so far !
Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

They seem to have a good appetite, if the next lot are as good all you need to do is give them good food and good whater and Bob's your uncle, don't worry, enjoy the ride!

[MickO'S]

This is them after 6 hours or so in the aquarium !

If you fast forward a little past a minute its them eating like little piggies again ! Even the new ones !!

The fish don't have that far to travel from Germany (relatively speaking of course) and the shops quarantine set up is first class !!


http://youtu.be/ObxQlCd4Z24

I can't promise there wont be more videos of them !!!!

It's as bad as when I was a new dad showing off all the photos of my boy to anybody who would look hahaha


Mick

[MickO'S]

Just wondering,

What’s the the highest ph that people keep stendkers at ??

The higher the ph I can the larger the water changes I can do !

Mick

[danotaylor]

Mick the stendker.com website has instructions and parameters for their discus. I read through it in June when I was planning to buy from Hans. I believe it says a stable pH in the 6-8 range. You can click a button to translate their site into English. Check it out mate. It does also say weekly 50% water changes are sufficient with 2-3 feedings per day, and regime none here, myself included, would encourage. When I asked Hans about that piece of information he replied "well 2 would be better".
All the best to you mate :thumbsup:

[MickO'S]

Thanks Dano,

I'm more following the advice and instructions on here and am doing 80-90% a day, although I have my own twist on it to suit my local water conditions.

Here's the latest video of the fish, one week since they arrived. All appear healthy with nice solid well shaped poo ! The fish are well coloured and very active...... so far so good.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0c1K4UiWA0

If the water conditions remain perfect I'll be picking up my last 6 fish.

Mick

[danotaylor]

They look super healthy mate. Feeding like a pack of ravenous wolves!!

[Paul Sabucchi]

Little piranhas! Have you started changing water & measuring parameters?

[MickO'S]

Yes to both,

Water change on full tilt! And parameters in good order. Ammonia and nitrite 0 with nitrates less than 10ppm.
I’m watching these daily and if they creep up any more I’m switching from my 75 uk Gallon per day RO to unit to 150 gallon per day which would allow 250% water change per day (24hr) so I’ll be able to manage that ! I’ll leave it a week and do a further assessment! (But test daily)


Mick

[Second Hand Pat]

They look great Mick and sure are hungry beasties. Looking forward to seeing them all in the tank. :D
Pat

[MickO'S]

Thanks pat,

I’m hoping for non-triangle looking Discus, decent shape and size.
I’m not hoping for show size and can’t expect as much with my system!
But let’s hope for the something I can be really happy with over the next year or so :)

Mick

[MickO'S]

Would it be expected that the fish would have visibly grown in the space of a week or is it my imagination?

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

At that age they grow quick

[danotaylor]

Mick don't get your nickers in a twist trying to recognize if they are or if they aren't. They do grow quick as we have seen on the grow out challenge, but 1 weeks growth would be hard to notice unless you're measuring them. Good food, clean water, and they will grow...just like you're doin already! Stick with your WC & feeding routine, enjoy simply watching them, and you'll be right mate :p

[Second Hand Pat]

Would it be expected that the fish would have visibly grown in the space of a week or is it my imagination?

Mick

Just taking a wild guess there Mick on the fish appearing larger. When you added the fish to your tank were their fins nicely spread out? Sometimes when fish are not to a tank their fins are somewhat closed and as they settle and acclimate the fins are fully displayed and the fish are happy. This could make them look larger or perhaps they did grow :D
Pat

[MickO'S]

You’re dead right pat !

That’s probably exactly what it is, the fish spreading themselves to their full size and height.

Danno,
Taking it easy and just enjoying the fish is exactly the thing to do 👍 their colours are really starting to pop at this stage, my dreadful photography skills won’t be able to show it haha

Paul,
As always you’re my fish keeping guru :)

Thanks for reading the thread guys

Mick

[danotaylor]

Your doing great so far mate!! Watching with interest :thumbsup:

[MickO'S]

Cheers buddy,

Got my three 8cm + leopard snakeskins :))

I’m delighted with them, there are now 12 fish in the aquarium and they are now swimming randomly and confidently around rather than tightly shoaling which gives the aquarium a fuller look 👍

It will be interesting to see over the next year how the small ones progress compared with the bigger ones!
It will show the consequences of insisting on starting with the 6.5cm ones !

As always......... time will tell

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Glad you got them safely home

[MickO'S]

Hey guys

My 3 new leopard snakeskins (8cm) have setteled in well and are eating great like the rest of them, as I sit here watching the fish the bars on the snakeskins is fading a little and their blue and red patterning is showing through stronger. The rest of the fish are still thriving !! 2 week today since the fish arrived and all is quiet and uneventful so far.

Here's a little video of them before their last and 4th feed of the day and they are still hungry little beasties !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qns7W0aSnE4

Thanks for looking, This thread and forum is a big part of my discus and its a big part of the hobby for me.

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Holy guacamole! They sure are active and boy can they eat! Your choice of supplier is definitely as good as you said it was going to be!

[danotaylor]

Lookin awesome Mick! Great to see them all together at last. Looking forward to watching them fill out your space mate.

[MickO'S]

Thanks Guys,

Paul the shop is class alright, you mentioned in this threat a couple of months ago practical fish keeping magazine, This is the pre-eminent fish keeping magazine in Ireland and Great Britain and probably in Europe, I don't know if it reaches America but its safe to say its a highly regarded magazine among fish keepers.
This is what its readers think of the shop my fish came from ..............
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1945/32360985248_1409c49bea.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/RiCvtw)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/RiCvtw) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4860/44416264940_55f1109562.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aEUY8o)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aEUY8o) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4855/44416264740_e41d48038d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2aEUY4W)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2aEUY4W) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Here's a link to the shops website.........
http://www.seahorseaquariums.com/store/
Don't mean to go on hehehe but i love the place. They even have the same core members of staff for more than 10 years with practically no turnover in staff which suggests to me that they treat their staff very well over a loooong time.

Thanks Dano,
Three more Solid Fire Reds to go yet but very nearly there with the full crew!! Can't wait to see them grow over the next few months and years and see do they reach something resembling decent fish.

anyway..... thanks again for reading
Mick
ps I have no affiliation with the shop, just way to regular a contributor to their tills hehehe

[MickO'S]

Right,

Still 3 solid fire reds short of the full crew but the ones I do have are 3 weeks in the aquarium and doing great so far,

I'm satisfied with how the daily maintenance and feeding regime is going. I'm feeding 4 times throughout the day, feed 1 is pellets then then the next 3 are Stendker Beefheart product Goodheart. The auto water changer is still going along nicely and I'm vacuuming 5 or 6 times a day and taking all solid waste out of the tank.

Here's a little video of the crew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxxJUJ3jOcw

Thanks for reading and watching

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

They look great! When are the last 3 arriving? This lot seems perfectly comfortable in their new home

[danotaylor]

Awesome Mick. Seems like your cycle is holding up well. Fish look very settled mate :thumbsup:

[MickO'S]

Hey Paul,
Went to get the last 3 at the weekend but the "Discus man John" was on a day off, Because I ordered the fish and he is letting me have my pick he has "fish not for sale" written on the qt tank they are in so nobody else would let me take them :) Anyway he has been so good to me I am happy to wait and let him help me pick them out.
All the fish seem to have settled in well alright. They are all definitely growing but not at an even pace, one or two are really growing quickly these two have always been first to the food and quickest eaters, one doesn't really seem to have grown much at all and the others are somewhere in between. Interesting journey so far.

Dano,
funny you should mention about the cycle holding up, The guy in the shop also mentioned that he had heard of ammonia cycles collapsing. Did you ever have any experience of that happen ?

Cheers for the input guys
Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Usually tanks collapse when poorly mantained, the pH drops (because the bacteria have used up the carbonates - so no buffer - and the high nitrates in water produce nitric acid) and this kills off (or at least grratly reduce the activity of) the bacteria in the filter.
I have noticed that the fish that grow less are the less greedy maybe prefering to go for the smaller bits of food while the ones that grow more go for the bigger chunks so I have often wondered what is cause and what is effect: do they grow less because they eat less or is their appetite less because their metabolism is slower.

[danotaylor]

Good answer on the cycle Paul. Mick I have heard of biological filters crashing but thankfully have never experienced it in 35 years of fish keeping. I have had ammonia & nitrite spikes from increasing my bioload too quickly, but never a complete crash. The fact that you had a well documented initial cycle and have gradually increased your tanks bioload by introducing fish slowly your cycle should be pretty bulletproof. Especially since you are adding dechlorinated water with your WC's.
Your going great guns mate!

[MickO'S]

Hey Paul,

As always a wonderful and thoughtful answer to my musings! Firstly that’s the most comprehensive yet simple explanations for how a cycle can go wrong!
Pat mentioned to be careful of the nitrates getting too high as it can be problematic, and I just took the advice at face value and thought no deeper on it. It’s fascinating to know how this works!

As for the fish growth I wondered as one of the pigeon bloods gobbled more food more voraciously than the others would it grow quicker! And bloody hell has it !!
From what I read on the grow out competition that’s ongoing it appears from their direct experience if you work really hard at water stability quality and multiple massive changes daily there can be consistency of growth across the group. It would be interesting to know what is happening in an aquarium like mine that is not to that quality and upkeep, what is causing some to grow and others to appear to not grow (or at least not nearly as much) . I’m looking forward to the next 6-12 months to see if this growth rate variation continues or evens out.
I have decided months ago at this stage that I’m committing to my current regime and just see how it goes.
I love this stuff :)

Dano, also thanks for the input :)
It appears that the cycle is pretty stable at this point alright! I’m thrilled with the health of the fish after 3 weeks ! And really interested to see what size but almost more importantly to me is the shape they ultimately reach !
I do love my dosing pump for my de-chlorinator.
I think all of my little additions will make my aquarium very consistent! But will that be enough.

I will keep documenting my journey here and maybe I will have some first hand experience to add to other parts of the group as I learn for myself.

As always thanks for reading

Mick

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Mick, one thing you have in your mix of fish is different strains which can grow at different rates. It might to cool to track the growth across the group as a whole and within each strain group. For example in my growout group I have eight snakes and two turks. I expect the turks to grow faster then the snakes but so far that is not been the case so time will tell.
Pat

[MickO'S]

How very interesting Pat,

I never thought of it that way, watching them across strains is a great idea. I'll definitely add that to my watch list. Unfortunately the best way to log this would be by photographs, It is ridiculous how bad my photos are of the fish. Granted I only have my Iphone camera but even still they are awful and don't show anything close to what they are. I suppose thats why anything that doesn't move there are photographs of and anything that does there are videos of.
So interesting to also hear about your expectations about the two discus types even though are from the same spawn. This Discus stuff is so great !
Thanks for sharing your knowledge so freely Pat, I learn so much from you and your additions across the whole forum.

Heres a new little video of the discus eating,
They almost form a bait ball while attacking the goodheart from Stendker, I slow down the footage down for a while to see the size of the fish and the size of the chunks they take out of the food. I also speed it up to show how busy they are eating all the food that broke off the main block. So far they seem happy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IH_u5JJUUBE

Happy Christmas Everybody
Mick

[fljones3]

Love the yellow that goes horizontal to reach the food. If you cannot get it from above, go under. :)

[danotaylor]

Mick they look bloody marvelous mate. I can see some definite growth in 3 weeks for sure.
So when do you get the fire reds?
Keep up the good work, they look sweet!

[Second Hand Pat]

They look great Mick and love the video. :D
Pat

[MickO'S]

Hey Guys,

Happy new year :)

Well, a very calm start to my adventure in discus keeping continues.

The pigeon bloods are growing at an incredible pace. They started as the smallest discus purchased, some being the 6.5cm size as advertised but a couple certainly being a little smaller ( all this being understood as they would all be from the one spawn so veneration can be expected I suppose ), these fish have grown incredibly fast compared to the rest. One of them is now as of today the largest fish in the aquarium despite 6 weeks ago the Leopard snakeskins and solid fire reds being sold as 8 cm fish. I got to pick the largest of these so they were starting at 8cm and getting bigger.
The blue diamonds Leopard snakeskins and the solid fire reds are slowly and almost imperceptibly growing but still going in the right direction.

Here's a couple of photos of the fish from about a week ago including the solid fire reds that were added then


https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4876/46519306921_3ff08c90ea.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dSKBeT)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2dSKBeT) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4855/46519314901_f113056aba.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dSKDBt)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2dSKDBt) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7817/31578994557_fddab52b63.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Q7wATp)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Q7wATp) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7863/46467175922_3026f9909e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2dN9qvy)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2dN9qvy) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4866/31578994467_2b5a09ddd3.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Q7wARR)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Q7wARR) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Hope you like them

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Well done so far, your fish are doing really well, I can just immagine how stunning they will be in a year or so

[MickO'S]

Cheers Paul,
I'm delighted with how They are growing and thriving so far. There is definitely some daily work involved like cleaning down the glass and siphoning into a filter-sock held above my sump so no leeching back into the water all day. It probably takes 10 minutes a day maintenance with a monthly sump and media clean which probably takes 40 mins to an hour as its thorough

Here's the latest video of the full pack, watch at the start of the video when they spot me coming with the food how they charge over to see can they be first to it. Coming towards the middle to the end of the video i do a little zoom to try to show some of the fish individually.

Anyway ......... here we go


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tdgyI8HjQk

Mick

[danotaylor]

Fire reds look amazing Mick. You've got it goin on fo'sho mate!!

[Paul Sabucchi]

You are going great guns, just shows how going about discus-keeping in a ----- (insert as appropriate: informed, focussed, single-minded, obsessive, etc) manner pays dividends!

[MickO'S]

Thanks Dano,
I love the solid fire reds potential. I find it perturbing they are not bloody solid red yet hehehe. Anybody any experience how long it takes for these to fully colour up or is it a hit and miss affair. All photos I see of them fully coloured up are of adult fish so I suppose I could be waiting for the best part of a year to see that colour transformation complete.

Paul thank you for the kind words. I've really worked hard at the project so far and am really enjoying the results. A compliment from yourself means loads to me !

Its been an interesting and slightly less quiet week this past week.
After the big sump clean I decided it would be worthwhile to keep an eye on the parameters of the water just in case i over did it on the cleaning and disturbed the bacteria. This turned out to be the correct decision.
As can be seen in in these photos, the nitrite and nitrate are within acceptable parameters but the ammonia crept up to nearly .25ppm
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7910/31811831487_26b056855d.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Qt6Xce)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Qt6Xce) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

This trend continued into the next day (I continued feeding very heavily)
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7810/46028473944_6702ec10a0.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2d8nXGm)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2d8nXGm) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

At this point my poor fish went on a 2 day starvation diet, apart from a few pellets but beefheart was a no no for the few days.

This worked and the ammonia returned to 0
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4882/39823850173_e0a26e2003.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/23F6Ddr)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/23F6Ddr) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

I didn't notice any particular change in the behavior of the fish before I tested the water, but since the ammonia results being unacceptably high I observed them more closely and thinking back over the previous days I do remember the fish being much more skittish and prone to darting across the aquarium into the walls at somebody other than me even standing beside the tank. This has all since returned to normal. I suppose the ammonia triggered the danger fight or flight response in the fish and lets face it discus don't hang around waiting for the fight hehe.

While researching this project on the common themes of a downward spiral of a new system and reading through old threads, before the thread moves to the "Disease/Sickness and Medication" room, the thread often asks "my fish are darting about the place and knocking themselves out / killing themselves off the tank glass " This is now to me a red flag and its time to test the bloody water now and stop feeding to allow things to stabilize. (along with the large water change which because of my drip system and unstable tap water I cannot do)

The fish seem to be none the worse for wear for their stressful week although I don't see much growth in them this week.
Here are some photos of the fish this week,
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4891/31847510097_0e0b86c92e.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QwfPcF)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QwfPcF) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7890/46732192822_f52034f3bd.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2ecyGNs)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2ecyGNs) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4810/32904334368_343eb8f438.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/S8DjeN)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/S8DjeN) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4811/31836320477_75ebb0f0d2.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/QvgsVc)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/QvgsVc) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

And a couple of images played with on apple photos editing app
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4887/46059739234_74fe72704a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2db9cM5)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2db9cM5) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7845/45874091245_d0bd1ff86b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2cTJH6F)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2cTJH6F) by Michael O’Sullivan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/160488453@N06/), on Flickr

Hope ye enjoyed the read
Mick

[Pices]

Good catch Micko. You’re doing a great job on these. They look amazing!
Patty

[MickO'S]

Well interesting times the last couple of weeks,

After the high ammonia of two weeks ago I paused my feeding for two days, the api test read normal (ie deep yellow). I was feeding 4 times a day, pellets in the morning with 1 stendker beef heart cube 3 times a day. This was obviously to much for my system to cope with and this showed up as ammonia that maxed out at .5ppm one evening.

As I said I paused feeding and when this happened. When I restarted feeding I still chose to feed 4 times a day but reduce beef heart from three blisters to two. I did all the responsible things that I should, I cleaned the poop off the the bottom with my siphon 2 or 3 times a day, daily scrubbing of the bottom of the aquarium and biweekly cleaning of all the rest of the glass.

So before every feed I did a quick ammonia test and in the correct light I could see the yellow colour I was looking for. As always I continued to obsessively watch my fish (except when eating but I'll get back to that later) I did notice some at first some small changes. It started with a blue diamond with a scale or two missing, I've seen that before with cichlids though so not to concerned. Then I noticed on another BD with what looked like a scrape on its side. My aquarium is totally devoid of any decoration and all it could possibly be was if it rubbed off the outflow pipe of the return pump that directs water into the tank. It looked as if it could possibly be that size and shape so unhappily i said it must be that in the absence of all other possibilities I could think of. Over the next few days maybe 8 or so this appeared on other BDs, these are the most pugnacious of the discus so I allowed myself to put it down to this. All this time I continued to check for ammonia, every time I annoyed my wife and son to confirm that the colour was in fact yellow as I wanted it to be. Most of the time they were sort of in agreement that it was nearly yellow and if it went to green I'd skip that feed.

The next change was a small bacterial nodule (pimples) on the very end of its ventral fin. This is definitely something I couldn't put down to an injury !! I continued to do water tests up to 4 times daily and nitrite and nitrate were well within what i consider satisfactory ie 0ppm nitrite and less than 10ppm nitrate (I understand this is not ideal but is the trade-off for my automated system that I understood starting this journey) .I want to get across in this post that all this on one page in one post sets off major alarm bells but only occasional issues that resolved themselves over a couple of days while fish were eating well put me to attention but not hyper in my worry, so the bacterial nodules started appearing on two other fish, another BD and a solid fire red.

Then came the big event
Two of my Solid Fire Reds did the Blair Witch corner stare, anybody about my age will know remember the movie of the same name where the teens were put in the corner before they were murdered...... well this is how my SFR's looked (well two of them anyway) All the rest of the fish were pretty good and still eating like savages and still growing well.

This is when I Decided that there was un-disputably something wrong. I decided to check all water supplies to my aquarium for ammonia, The mains water, the aged water and the ro water. all these were a deep yellow in colour. This then allowed me to understand that you don't need to find the right light to see the yellow colour you need to see on the api test kit. This means all the problems are caused by a very low level ammonia in the aquarium the last 3 weeks. At the risk of repeating myself I wand to explain how small the colour change was ! it was barley perceptible but this was just enough over a few weeks to put the most sensitive of fish off. The majority of the fish 9 out of the 12 showed absolutely no ill affect from the poor water that I allowed manifest.

Now back to the feeding, I said earlier that I didn't watch the fish eat, that is only partially true, I feed my fish with food from the fridge and after dropping it into the aquarium i see the discus charge towards the food and eat, this satisfied me they were doing ok, but I didn't stop to really watch rather than return the rest of the food to the fridge. When I did really stop to watch I noted that two or three fish didn't really fight for the food and really only mouthed the food.

So lessons learned, and 48 hours now since I completely recovered the parameters of the aquarium and 4 days since I really started making sense of all the pieces of the puzzle to give me a real picture of what happened and the fish are acting normally although a tiny bit pinched in the belly from the two days with only one small feed.


So what do I think went wrong........... well this i believe started out with an inflated opinion of what my sump system can handle in the form of food, then the clarisea had gone off angle slightly and allowed solids to remain in the system that should have been taken out by it, trying to push to the edge of what is possible with feed so I could achieve maximum growth and finally having 35 years experience in the fish keeping hobby. I didn't pay enough attention to the fact that's its my first time keeping discus and that makes me inexperienced in this part of the hobby and I have to be more open to the big picture that's happening around.

Anyway I hope this experience so far helps somebody

Mick

[Paul Sabucchi]

Glad the issue is on the mend and you identified the root cause of the problem. Our little round fiends sure do line to keep us on our toes, something so minimal to be almost undetectable and that probably would not have bothered the vast majority of other ornamental freshwater fish in this case was more than capable of upsetting your discus. Just shows that knowing your fish, observing them and rationalising the problem is a very good way to tackle it

[MickO'S]

Hey guys,
After all the help I received from so many on this form I did not keep up my participation on here but I want all to know especially Paul Sabucchi how all the help knowledge and inspiration allowed me to successfully (for the most part) raise my discus to a good although slightly inconsistent standard. I made mistakes along the way that definitely affected some fish but others thrived despite me. What I can say for sure is that without this forum I would have fallen into the pitfalls and traps and would have spent lots of money on expensive fish only to have them fade and die because I didn’t know any better!
All my fish 15 in total survived and all but 1 have grown into fish I am really proud of thanks to knowledge I learned here off all, especially the mods who dedicate themselves to this great form.
Here is a little 2 minute video of my fish and how they developed over the last year or so. Right up until a couple of weeks ago when I finally scaped the aquarium. This is my next challenge now ! Keeping discus in a scaped and planted aquarium.
Anyway here’s my fish 😊


http://youtu.be/FCXdEwAuBnc

Again thanks all
Michael

[Shan_Evolved]

Very nice! Inspirational. I can't wait to also do something similar. Very happy all 15 survived. I also have 15 but plan on selling a few along the way.

How has your cleaning/water changes/feedings changed since you added in white sand substrate?

[danotaylor]

Mick you did a ripper job growing those guys out mate. There's always growth rate inconsistencies in every group. Well done!! Your scape looks sensational, and the fish seem chilled in the scaped tank.