Bill's Grow Out Challenge Thread 2018

[Tshethar]

Hey everyone and welcome. My name is Bill. Disclaimer: I like to write. Language is fun for me. You've been warned! I promise to use plenty of photos and to do my best to break things down into digestible parts. Wouldn't want any of my readers to get bloat! :p:fish:


Taking my cue from Al, you're going to get something philosophical (to cover up for my utter lack of a credible "discus-raising philosophy"), a little intro about me, and a plea for help that will basically represent my most promising plan for success. Hope you like. (Or, feel free to move on to pics below! Fish are en route at this very moment!) :bounce2:

[Tshethar]

Tshethar (pron. "tsay tar") means freeing or releasing life in Tibetan, and refers to a cultural practice of saving the life of animals that were destined to be killed by others.
I thought of this when I needed a screen name because fish caught in lakes and rivers and brought to the market were one of the animals traditionally released in this way. (People would buy them and give them their lives back where they had come from, at least ideally.) For my purposes, it captured something of an ethos I was exposed to as a college student in India and Nepal, which has to do with ahimsa (non-harming/non-injury/non-violence) and the notion that like us, other living, sentient beings want happiness and don't want suffering, and on that basis deserve our care and compassion.

So, there's some philosophy for you...

[Tshethar]

I became a hobbyist right after that time for two reasons: 1) I went out one day with my big sister to get some fish after her husband bought and set up a yard sale aquarium, was alarmed when I found them struggling and dying the next day, and felt compelled to figure out why and to do something about it; and 2) I really needed something to throw myself into as I went through the cultural re-assimilation process! By the end of the summer I had a job at the aquarium store, and by the end of my senior year I had three tanks in my dorm room (55/40L/20H).

Fast forward almost 30 years and I'm still keeping fish, and have done so mostly for its therapeutic value and because I like having aquatic "friends" around. I try hard to do right by them but admit that it can be hard to do so consistently, or sometimes to figure out what that would mean. (BTW, I’m pleased to say I have never tried any direct discus rescues from the LFS!) I do currently have a bad case of MTS, and with no fishroom, either. (It’s up to 8 now…)

[Tshethar]

I started with discus 2 years ago, but had a bad experience despite my best efforts, and lost the whole batch one-by-one. Now I’m back and working with a group of seven F1 Alenquer (between 4-5”), and hoping for better results. Learning as I go there, about a month and a half in.

All this is to say that I’ve got some philosophy, and I’ve got some life experience, but when it comes to discus-raising philosophy or experience, I’m pretty thin. So I’m going to have to compensate…

[Tshethar]

I think my plan for now is to steal good ideas and practices from my fellow competitors, while trying to fill the role of the likable underdog you want to route for and help out along the way. (Well, that and 2 x 75% water changes if I can pull it off!) Anyway, stay tuned for some crowdsourcing opportunities as we go, all of you who wish you were here, or those who just want to lend a hand and/or stave off disaster.

So, welcome, thanks for reading and on with the photos!!!

[Tshethar]

So, here's the tank ready to go... painted back and bottom, insulated on three sides with Reflectix, 75watt Eheim heater on an Inkbird controller, got a Poret small cubefilter in the mail today...

118498

You'll notice the aging barrel to the right, along with the drain... (you know, that thing the sunlight is coming in through). (Remember, no fishroom!)

[Tshethar]

And here is something I'm using between my bathroom faucet and the barrel...

118499

My tap water would seem to have very good parameters in general. I checked in the last couple of weeks and found my pH was at 6.4-6.6 with no swing after 24 hours, KH at 3 degrees, and TDS was around 50ish if I remember correctly.

Still, discus have not always seemed happy with big water changes in the past, even with temp matched and aged water, so I added what you see above. (5 micron sediment filter and carbon block.)

I can't say for sure what effect this is having, but if nothing else gives me some peace of mind, and the fish I have are reacting well to large changes now. And with the amount of water I hope to move through this barrel (which serves my 40 breeder with other discus), I'll be using this to "speed age" as we go.

Alright--let the countdown to splashdown begin!

[Mr.BigBlock]

Good luck!

[Pices]

Good luck Bill!

[Tshethar]

Good luck!


Good luck Bill!

Thank you both!

As people reading along from the main thread right now already know, the challengers are already facing their first potential hurdle, which hopefully turns out to be a minor one and not a disaster: the discus are two days into the USPS mail system, but no one knows exactly where. If we're lucky most or all of us will receive them tomorrow morning (day 3 of shipping), which should be fine. Worst case scenario is they're still on a pallet somewhere in Springfield, MA, and Al will have to figure out if there's anything he can do. As of now the "tracking" information basically doesn't exist, so we don't know what to expect. Not a lot of fun right now for anyone but we're all hoping for the best.

In general, I've typically been a float, net and dump person when receiving fish, but if these guys arrive in an especially fragile state I may detox with Safe and drip them. Sure hoping I'll see them tomorrow, and we'll try to get a sense for how best to relieve whatever stress they may be showing when they make it in. Fingers crossed for everybody.

[Tshethar]

Fish are here!!!!

118521

Thanks for everything, Al. I can only imagine what the last day has been like after all the work you've put into these guys, with the packing job one small slice.

Floating them, temp at 83-84.

118523

Looking good in the bags...

118524

Decided to go with net and dump... only so much time at home today, and they look ready to go.

118525

One fish headed to the top corner, but everybody else is out and about from the get-go...

118526

And thanks for the sponge. Stacked it and will hope for the best there.

Leaving them for the rest of the day and will see what they look like in a few hours.

[brewmaster15]

Bill glad as all heck they got there. I see the fins on one looks a tad clapped.. I would suggest salt at 1-2 tablespoons here as I did with Pats.


al

[Second Hand Pat]

Woot Bill, good to hear they arrived ok :D
Pat

[Tshethar]

Bill glad as all heck they got there. I see the fins on one looks a tad clapped.. I would suggest salt at 1-2 tablespoons here as I did with Pats.
al

Thanks, Al. Keep the suggestions coming. I actually saw that piece of advice to Pat on her thread before I had to run out and come back over to my office, so I literally ran back to the tank and dropped in a tablespoon before I had to leave.


Woot Bill, good to hear they arrived ok :D
Pat

Thanks, Pat. I'm hoping we're not the outliers and that we'll hear some more good news from others soon.

Look forward to checking them out shortly and seeing if and when they're interested in food. Best of luck to you and everyone else!

[Second Hand Pat]

Me too Bill, I want everyone to receive their fish in good condition so the fun can begin. :) Mine are showing an interest in food I believe.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Me too Bill, I want everyone to receive their fish in good condition so the fun can begin. :) Mine are showing an interest in food I believe.
Pat

So they are! Well, guess it's feeding time over here as well!

Got home and found everyone looking better, albeit a little skittish when this new person showed up in front of their tank. Crumbled some of Al's pellets and have been watching them peck. Happy to say that all of them seem to be settling in!

This is right after I showed up, scared them, and fed them:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQjNpeJIPGs&feature=youtu.be

They were less hesitant ten minutes later, but seems to me even here they're showing good signs. Glad to be able to share something positive today!

[brewmaster15]

Great News Bill.

al

[Filip]

You seem to be off to a good start here Bill .
With your diligence and Als guidance along the way I hope they will be happy campers in your tank .
Good luck Bill .

[Tshethar]

Great News Bill.

al

Glad I can provide some, Al. You deserve it after raising these guys through the summer and putting in the work that you have to get them to us.


You seem to be off to a good start here Bill .
With your diligence and Als guidance along the way I hope they will be happy campers in your tank .
Good luck Bill .

Thanks, Filip. So far, so good! I hope they will be, too. And honestly, I'm feeling pretty motivated and empowered to raise these guys to their potential to the best of my ability. When I imagined myself as maybe the least experienced person out of 11 doing this, I figured I'd be lucky not to have problems. Now that there's a chance (hopefully a slim one) that only a handful of us might even have the opportunity to work with these guys, I'm ready. And you know, I've also gotten to a place in life where I'm not afraid to confess my own ignorance. So with Al and other experienced folks (such as yourself) paying attention, things are looking good. :thumbsup:

[Tshethar]

Can't resist one more video--really settling in now and everyone is relaxed and eating! :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdWjHxo8RR8&feature=youtu.be

[Filip]

Great video of a promising start Bill.
I have a feeling that your begginers luck along with your philosophy of "stealing" good ideas will get you to the top with those little guys :) .

I can almost feel your excitement right now and i would gladly be in your shoes too at this moment :) .

[danotaylor]

sweet Bill. Here we go!

[Tshethar]

Great video of a promising start Bill.
I have a feeling that your begginers luck along with your philosophy of "stealing" good ideas will get you to the top with those little guys :) .

I can almost feel your excitement right now and i would gladly be in your shoes too at this moment :) .

Thanks, Filip! "Getting to the top" might be a little ambitious at the moment (!) but if I take that to mean I'll end up with some nice healthy fish to enjoy and share with folks then I'm with you! And you're right about the excitement... really fun right now. Hobbies can be great for helping us to feel like kids again at least for moments here and there. (It's like "Santa came!!!" over here right now.)


sweet Bill. Here we go!

You bet, mate! Appreciate it!

[Tshethar]

Morning update time:

Did a few things last night before bed: first 75% water change and a feeding afterwards. All in all we're good but I think I'm going to tweak my system a little, for as I expected my return pump in the aging barrel is oversized for a 10 gallon tank! I played with plugging it in and unplugging it a little, trying not to bounce them around too much, and on the whole they didn't seem too upset during the process but afterwards they didn't show the interest in more food that I was anticipating. I have a really tiny pump that came with a breeder box that I'm going to try this morning and we'll see if there's a difference.

My big decision last night was whether to leave some crumbled pellets with them after the WC when they weren't showing interest. Didn't want to foul the water, but decided since I'd done a WC to give them a chance to graze overnight if they wanted to. (Woke up this morning and was happy to see that they had eaten.)

Also set this up last night--anyone else have one of these? I have BN fry, plus angels on eggs in my office tank (!) and endlers, so it seemed like I might as well make up a batch. (Maybe I'm stealing from Adam, too. :) )

118556

118557

[Adam S]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the thing pictured?

Also, if you have a plastic water bottle, you can drill some holes in it and stick the return hose in the top to diffuse the flow from your pump.

[Tshethar]

So, this morning I decided it was time to steal from Pat. We all know she's awesome and knows what she's doing. :)

Thing is, I don't have a fish-food coffee grinder, so I tried something else:

118558

Worked pretty well, though it's questionable whether my "fines" are going to be small enough.

118559

I sucked up the ones that sank to the bottom with a syringe and added them to the tank. Doesn't seem as though directing them to a particular area is especially important given the small footprint, and the fact that the fish are moving around pretty freely.

So far, looking pretty good! Some of the worms are too big, but the fry seem to be enjoy working them over!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Uir8lvtNBU&feature=youtu.be



And if some turn out to be too much for them, we'll siphon 'em out with the next WC.

[brewmaster15]

Morning update time:

Did a few things last night before bed: first 75% water change and a feeding afterwards. All in all we're good but I think I'm going to tweak my system a little, for as I expected my return pump in the aging barrel is oversized for a 10 gallon tank! I played with plugging it in and unplugging it a little, trying not to bounce them around too much, and on the whole they didn't seem too upset during the process but afterwards they didn't show the interest in more food that I was anticipating. I have a really tiny pump that came with a breeder box that I'm going to try this morning and we'll see if there's a difference.

My big decision last night was whether to leave some crumbled pellets with them after the WC when they weren't showing interest. Didn't want to foul the water, but decided since I'd done a WC to give them a chance to graze overnight if they wanted to. (Woke up this morning and was happy to see that they had eaten.)

Also set this up last night--anyone else have one of these? I have BN fry, plus angels on eggs in my office tank (!) and endlers, so it seemed like I might as well make up a batch. (Maybe I'm stealing from Adam, too. :) )

118556

118557

Bill you can use the Brine shrimp with these fry, they will gladly take it at this size... Let me know if that hatchery works out I saw Brineshrimp direct selling those... hatches without air and separates shells I believe?

al

[Tshethar]

Pardon my ignorance, but what's the thing pictured?

Al's got the call right on this one... won't produce large quantities and I've only just tried it once a couple of weeks ago, but it definitely works...


Bill you can use the Brine shrimp with these fry, they will gladly take it at this size... Let me know if that hatchery works out I saw Brineshrimp direct selling those... hatches without air and separates shells I believe?

al


Also, if you have a plastic water bottle, you can drill some holes in it and stick the return hose in the top to diffuse the flow from your pump.

That's a good idea... I was thinking about stuffing some sponge in my hose or the like... I may try to see what I can rig up as the teeny pump I have will take forever. Thanks!

[Tshethar]

...if you have a plastic water bottle, you can drill some holes in it and stick the return hose in the top to diffuse the flow from your pump.

I looked around and didn't have a bottle I could easily use, but I did realize I had a plastic colender that had been relegated to fish-only use after my wife got a stainless steel one. It fit perfectly on top of the 10 gallon tank, and it did a very good job of diffusing water. I felt pretty ingenious and was thinking to made a video, as it's pretty amazing to watch, but then in watching the fish over the next half hour or so I was back to thinking that it was too much of a stress on them. (Paying attention to what Pat is doing here, which is using a pitcher and not her 950gph return pump here...) So, my brilliant colender idea for a 20 second WC refill is probably going to wait until these guys are older...

I'll try the tiny pump later and see whether it is the volume of change or the speed/manner in which I do it that causes some (limited) signs of stress.

[Tshethar]

Meanwhile...

It only took about 15 hours or so for the first BBS to appear from the hatchery...

118587

Fish were happy to go after these this afternoon. Since I ordered this from Brine Shrimp Direct, and was paying for shipping anyway, I decided to try some of their flake foods which had been highly recommended by some pros on here. I was feeding some of this one to the big boys...

118588

...so thought I'd offer a tiny bit (like one large flake crushed) and see what the fry thought:

118589

The consistency is a little stiff when it's dry, but they definitely found it attractive and seemed to be working on it pretty well. Have a feeling there won't be any left over. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, do you have a filter sock or large piece of foam? I would suggest a regular sock but could have soap residue.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Bill, do you have a filter sock or large piece of foam? I would suggest a regular sock but could have soap residue.
Pat

Yeah, come to think of it I actually have three filter socks I bought two years ago from a bio-diesel place, I think it was, and they're sitting in a box of fish supplies. I was on top of some old threads on eliminating microbubbles at the time--thinking that and/or some critters from the tap was what was bothering my fish--and I used these hanging from a shower head above my aging barrel in my last "fish room" that was really a bathroom. They were set up to get progressively smaller, maybe even down to 1 micron or something. I could use those inside the colender... For now, though, it's not like it's a terrible thing to try waiting on the tiny pump. (Obviously it's a terrible burden to me to have to spend extra time on these fish! :cool:) So I think I'll try that tonight and see what happens. (And my pump is similar in size to yours--might as well be a fire hose.) :o

[Second Hand Pat]

You might just try placing the end of the hose right in the filter sock. :)
Pat

[Tshethar]

Yeah, you're right that may be enough. I'm sure to continue experimenting and tweaking the systems.

Right now the novelty factor is off the charts with these setups, but I'm sure as we go we'll appreciate whatever little things we can come up with to make the maintenance easier.

Obviously these little guys are super resilient given their experiences with the USPS, so I'm not too worried about them, but for this first week I'm hoping to err on the side of caution with my WCs. Hope yours do well tonight in your absence! (I'm sure they will.) :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Glad they got there, wishing you all the best for the contest, I always root for the underdog! Bet breeders are green with envy at your tapwater.

[Tshethar]

Glad they got there, wishing you all the best for the contest, I always root for the underdog! Bet breeders are green with envy at your tapwater.

Thanks, Paul! And you're right about my tap water, at least by the measures we usually use. Checked it today with the TDS meter:

118633

If anything, I could imagine having to worry that there were enough minerals in the water for fry development; here's hoping the food will address that for these guys! Hard to imagine taking on breeding given how much work I am already doing with my fish hobby right now, but never say never, right? :) This is good practice at least for one piece of it.

[Tshethar]

Well, today has been quite the day for the contest tank. I think I'm going to take things out of order to save the serious drama for the end... let's just say for now that I'm glad I still have all my fish.... :eek:

[Tshethar]

Here's the pedestrian part... This question came up on the main contest thread:


For fry grow outs does anyone use repashy food? Its a gel based food that doesn't break down when it is exposed to water. Does anyone has experience with using it for fry grazing during the day between more concentrated feedings? Would anyone be willing to try it with this group of grow outs?

As I mentioned, I have some of this, so thought I'd break it out. I got some after seeing Rachel O'Leary recommend it on Youtube and also noticed Stephan Tanner (Swiss Tropicals) selling it as well... Here are the two I got, for people who haven't seen this product.

118643

I got the silicone mini-ice trays to make cubes, and so I'd have something besides plastic bags for the stuff to cool in... (you mix the powder with hot water and let it set up). I then freeze it and take out what I need. Here's the ingredients for the "Community Plus," which I decided to try out on the discus.

118644

I wasn't sure what to expect as my larger discus haven't seemed to like the texture much. Happily, the little guys liked it pretty well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7EpW3bU9wc

[Tshethar]

What I thought was going to be an ordinary part of the day was my first water change.... Had some discussion above about how to refill without bothering the fish too much, so thought I'd show people how I'm refilling. (I tried the tiny pump I had in my barrel, but it didn't have the power to lift the water high enough... so... back to the colander!)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er_vaRUCIT0

[Tshethar]

Alright, so now for the real news: Just before I refilled that tank, I had a frantic search. 1...2...3...4...5...6...7... wait... how many fish are there? Count again.... *&^%, I'm only seeing 9.

Did I really see something in the siphon tube for that split second? *&^% it wasn't an air bubble was it?

Okay, there really are only 9 fish. Do people remember what I use for my drain?!? :eek: :noway: :scared:

Okay, look out the window? See anything? No.

Run outside.

118645

I can't find anything! :huh: :shocked:

Where's the water going? Should be away from the house...

...unless the hose was curled toward the brick... quick, check under the weed barrier in a low spot near the window...

118646

THERE HE IS!!! :bounce:

Got 'em! Run!

Back in the tank, get the dirt off 'em, siphon it out, finish water change. He lives!!!

118647
118648

I think he deserves a name after this (Houdini?) but I'm already not sure I can tell him apart from the others. (He was back to eating the Rapashy later in the day above...)

Whew! :fried: A close shave!

Won't be taking my eyes off my 1/2" hose I guess... :o

[Filip]

Thanks God you've taken that last count Bill :) .

[Second Hand Pat]

So glad you found him Bill and he is ok,.quite scary. You can drain your 1/2 hose into an outside bucket in case this happens again. I also like the colander idea. Might need to try that for myself :D
Pat

[Adam S]

Seems to be working really well. Certainly saves on time when you can use a big pump.

[Tshethar]

So glad you found him Bill and he is ok,.quite scary. You can drain your 1/2 hose into an outside bucket in case this happens again. I also like the colander idea. Might need to try that for myself :D
Pat


Seems to be working really well. Certainly saves on time when you can use a big pump.

Yes on the colander... Seems like they can easily get out of the "rain" to the other side of the tank if it's too much for them.

That's a good idea, Pat, on the bucket outside, though I tried to keep the hose length short enough to easily maneuver, which might make it hard to "aim"... Either way I may need to be a little more careful about my discharge as it's not moving away from the house as nicely as I thought it would--fortunately in this case! (I'll definitely be more careful about what I'm draining!)

(By the way, for some reason my photos aren't showing today after doing so last night... not sure if an Admin can fix that or not. Thx!)

[Tshethar]

Thanks God you've taken that last count Bill :) .

Amen Filip... It was frantic counting to be sure, as I didn't want to believe it. Had the water down to about an inch and was looking from all directions; must have done it 5-6 times at least before I realized I just was not going to get to 10!

I don't like carrying buckets if I can help it, but I sure almost paid for it!:)

[Second Hand Pat]

(By the way, for some reason my photos aren't showing today after doing so last night... not sure if an Admin can fix that or not. Thx!)

Bill, send those pics to the webmaster@simplydiscus.com in the order they should appear and we will see what we can do to restoring them.
Pat

[jeep]

Wow, I'm glad you were diligent enough to count and lucky enough to save it!!!

[Tshethar]

Bill, send those pics to the webmaster@simplydiscus.com in the order they should appear and we will see what we can do to restoring them.
Pat

Thanks, Pat. Done!


Wow, I'm glad you were diligent enough to count and lucky enough to save it!!!

Thanks, Brian. Me, too. Thought I was being diligent with 2x/day water changes and trying to document, but not sure the fish saw it that way! :) it's amazing what one moment of inattentiveness can do... Fortunately I saw something out of the corner of my eye in the siphon tube. I wanted to think it was an air bubble but deep down I knew.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, see if those two posts look correct?
Pat

[Tshethar]

Bill, see if those two posts look correct?
Pat

That's it! Thanks, Pat.

[Tshethar]

So, I may not be the best discus-keeper in this competition, but I might turn out to be the most prolific reporter... We'll see if that keeps up when the novelty wears off and the rest of life catches up, and not sure if it will count for much in the end, but I'm going to try to keep documenting stuff as best I can.

For now I've noticed that at least a couple of times it has taken my fish a while to recover from big water changes. For whatever reason they seem fine sometimes, but today there was some heavy breathing and most of them heading for the corners. Water was aged overnight with Safe and 2 tbs of salt, and temp matched. It was about a 90% change, using the technique above. I think tonight I'll try a smaller volume and see if there's a difference. Haven't tested ammonia to know to what degree bioload is an issue, but will do so if I back off on the percent changed.

I've also got one fish--the smallest I received--who has generally been showing some stress bars and darkening and who hasn't been showing much interest in food. Still picks a little, but not like the others. I'm wondering if this is the kind of fish that is destined to lag behind the curve, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions. He's still active, swimming around and showing curiosity, just not for food. I put a light on the tank today and focused on him here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVNeypmzMLs&feature=youtu.be

Can't think of too much to do to encourage him. Decided to ease the temp up a little, from 83-84 to 85-86, to see if that would stimulate his appetite. Will keep trying some different foods. Ideas welcome.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, this is not the fish that took a ride to the back yard?
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

So, I may not be the best discus-keeper in this competition, but I might turn out to be the most prolific reporter... We'll see if that keeps up when the novelty wears off and the rest of life catches up, and not sure if it will count for much in the end, but I'm going to try to keep documenting stuff as best I can.


Same here...maybe we can keep each other entertained lol.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Bill, this is not the fish that took a ride to the back yard?
Pat

No, that guy is fine! Can't definitively tell him apart from the others. He's a mid-sized turq from what I could tell...


Same here...maybe we can keep each other entertained lol.
Pat

Sounds like a plan! :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Don’t raise the temp, it will just stress up the little guy having a hard time. Do you have salt in the water? If not, add some.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Thanks for the comment Pat, I'll take a look tonight and if I don't see any difference I'll try easing it back. I do have a couple of tablespoons of salt going. Will just give it some time and hope the picking at food increases a bit, and I may experiment a little with the percentage on the WCs.

To be honest I'm curious about difference of opinion on temperature, if there is one. From reading on the forum, my take-away is that 82 is strongly recommended in almost all scenarios especially if there's a chance of bacterial infection, unless one is pretty confident there are protozoa causing trouble (and not bacteria as well).

At the same time, there are folks who sometimes suggest that higher temps will increase metabolism and appetite, and I'm aware of a supplier who kept his fish higher, around 86. I'm not inclined to do it to try to fast-track growth, but I wonder about stimulating appetite. But I can see that first trying different foods, etc., may be a less risky proposition.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, this fish has more than just lack of appetite. It’s also very dark which isn’t good. Stressing it out with a higher temp right now I don’t think is the best for it. However, it is your fish in your tank.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Everyone looked about the same, so decided to take your advice and ease back down. Is your experience that the higher temp adds stress? Obviously want to avoid that. Was wondering if the higher temps would stimulate immune system and appetite to come back online.

A little worried that the status quo could lead to a quick decline. But, these guys are only a few days into settling down after their journey, so I can also appreciate how clean water and consistency for a few more days might also do the trick. Still, I'd feel better if I saw more pecking going on. That said, there were plenty of crumbs around and I was only watching the tank for so long today, so maybe it ate more than I thought.

Went with a 75% WC tonight, with 2 tbs salt.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, when you raise the temp it makes the fish breath harder and use more energy so this is what I meant by stress. Higher heat can also increase the pecking order if that has started. Hope it look better this morning.
Pat

[JamesW]

Are you feeding the Repashy as a 'in between meals' type feeding or are you feeding that as one of the multiple daily feedings?

[eugenefish]

So, I may not be the best discus-keeper in this competition, but I might turn out to be the most prolific reporter... We'll see if that keeps up when the novelty wears off and the rest of life catches up, and not sure if it will count for much in the end, but I'm going to try to keep documenting stuff as best I can.

For now I've noticed that at least a couple of times it has taken my fish a while to recover from big water changes. For whatever reason they seem fine sometimes, but today there was some heavy breathing and most of them heading for the corners. Water was aged overnight with Safe and 2 tbs of salt, and temp matched. It was about a 90% change, using the technique above. I think tonight I'll try a smaller volume and see if there's a difference. Haven't tested ammonia to know to what degree bioload is an issue, but will do so if I back off on the percent changed.

I've also got one fish--the smallest I received--who has generally been showing some stress bars and darkening and who hasn't been showing much interest in food. Still picks a little, but not like the others. I'm wondering if this is the kind of fish that is destined to lag behind the curve, but I don't want to jump to any conclusions. He's still active, swimming around and showing curiosity, just not for food. I put a light on the tank today and focused on him here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVNeypmzMLs&feature=youtu.be

Can't think of too much to do to encourage him. Decided to ease the temp up a little, from 83-84 to 85-86, to see if that would stimulate his appetite. Will keep trying some different foods. Ideas welcome.


I am a big fan of big WC for growing baby discus. My WC schedules are 2 x 90% each day and these change always bring me happy and healthy discus.

Something you have to watch out for is the PH of the water in the tank and the PH of the aging water you are about to do the WC. If there are a big different in PH values, you can stress out the fish too.

[Tshethar]

Are you feeding the Repashy as a 'in between meals' type feeding or are you feeding that as one of the multiple daily feedings?

I'd say I'm still in an experimental phase with my feedings. Right now I've used it as one of my main feedings over 2 days. One positive is that I have felt as though I could leave some quantity of it in the tank without fear of it clouding the water or quickly creating an ammonia spike.

I'm a little ambivalent about it right now though, and I'm not sure if I'll keep it as one of my staple foods. I can definitely see using it occasionally when I can't be present for a regular feeding. (Right now my work allows me to be at home a lot, and to have some flexibility with my schedule. It's also a really short drive to my office.) I have Eheim feeders, but those can be difficult to dial in and I've found it's easy to pollute the tank with them. So I might go with Repashy for the occasional long day away.

The discus accept it, but yesterday they kept picking at tiny crumbs from the flake food I fed before they went after it, and they left some uneaten a while later that I siphoned off. On the plus side, they will eat it and the ingredients list includes what look like a lot of food-based vitamins and minerals. On the minus side it may be lower in protein than some might recommend for discus growth. Seems like it has a place as a supplement, which is nice to have.

For between-meal snacks I'm going to go with BBS for the time being, especially since my smallest one isn't really eating, and my lazy-man's hatchery produces small quantities over a couple of days.

[Tshethar]

I am a big fan of big WC for growing baby discus. My WC schedules are 2 x 90% each day and these change always bring me happy and healthy discus.

Something you have to watch out for is the PH of the water in the tank and the PH of the aging water you are about to do the WC. If there are a big different in PH values, you can stress out the fish too.

Still planning to perform 2x/day, but since I saw some funky behavior yesterday morning I went with 75-80% last night and again this morning, and didn't see the stress reaction I did that one time. Not sure if that will be my regular practice or if I'll try upping it again.

Typically I haven't picked up any pH swings when I've checked, and I am aging my water at least 8-12 hours, so I was a little mystified. Everybody looked fine this morning, though the one fish above is still darker than the others and not too keen on the foods I've offered today. I'll have a new batch of BBS later this afternoon and I'm hoping maybe he'll get going on some of that.

[Tshethar]

Bill, when you raise the temp it makes the fish breath harder and use more energy so this is what I meant by stress. Higher heat can also increase the pecking order if that has started. Pat

Thanks, Pat. That helps clarify.


Hope it look better this morning. Pat

I wish I could say that it did, but it's pretty touch and go today with this fish.... may have a "crowdsourcing" opportunity here as I may be facing a tough decision soon and I can't think of too many options...

[Tshethar]

So, here's the situation: smallest fish seemed to make it through shipping okay but has always been quick to darken and show stress bars more or less from the beginning, as far as I remember, and has seemed awkward about or not very interested in food. This has become more pronounced in the last couple of days. Will also occasionally scratch a little. He's thin.

Didn't have BBS for a day or so and was feeding other foods: Al's pellets, the garlic flake from Brine Shrimp Direct, Repashy Community Plus, and some FDBW roughed up a bit (but probably not small enough). 2x/day water changes, between 75-95%, depending. Once or twice the WCs seemed stressful, but generally they don't. Did 75% for two in a row, and a bigger one tonight (95%) as water looked a bit cloudy and fish seemed fine, with this one exception.

This afternoon I took a look at him and I thought, "oh, he's really bad," I honestly thought he was trying to stick close and follow other fish around and he related to them as if they were one of his parents, as if he was interested in their slime coats. I actually think he was, and I felt bad for him, and thought "he's so weak he's delirious, and maybe I'm going to have to cull him tonight or he's just going to die." But I had a new batch of BBS so I put them in the tank. At first he didn't seem to really wake up to this, but then he showed some interest. Not like everyone else, but enough to get start getting some nutrition. Here it is:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkHf9XDiVwk&feature=youtu.be

Tonight he had more energy, no problem with water change, though still no interest in pellets afterwards.

I can think of a few options at this point, but I wonder it there are readers out there with other ideas. Here's what I got:

1) he's too far gone and a risk to the others--better to cull/euthanize him than prolong things

2) well, he might not make it back but keep mixing in some BBS, keep the tank the same otherwise and see if he comes around. (status quo)

3) mess with a variable like temperature (so far small changes haven't shown much effect either way)--it's at 82-83 now, or maybe salt quantity (1-2 tbs/10 gal now.)

4) try keeping him in a breeder net or similar and give him BBS in a confined space multiple times a day and see if that turns him around.

Your turn, people. I'm asking the audience. Would you do one of these four, or does anyone have some other suggestions? The stakes are high! :fish:

Thanks!

[fljones3]

I am no expert on this but it seems a cull is in order. I am concerned about the other fish.
Sounder responses will follow though.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, I would give it a day or two with BBS and see if it improves. I think removing it from the other fish may be too stressful. Be mentally prepared to cull it however. A sick fish is a risk to the group.
Pat

[JamesW]

Apart from dying and upsetting the water parameters what is the risk of this fish to the group? I'd guess that whatever he has the other fish have already been exposed to and fought off.

I vote option 2.

[Tshethar]

Thanks, everyone--great stuff! More thoughts? Experts and casual observers welcome to weigh in. Holding steady this morning....

[rickztahone]

Hello there Bill :). I've been meaning to reply to your thread for a few days now. Your style of writing and updating reminds me of me. I am an update friend and you can check out a thread of mine from a while back where I raised 25 1" discus in a 75g tank. It was my first time raising from that small a size. Check out the thread in my sig.
One of the best advice I can give you is the age old saying in all aquarium hobbies, and that is the KISS rule. Just keep it simple. Ask any breeder, discus arent difficult to raise. They need clean water, good food and did I mention clean water? You can literally raise discus from fry to full grown in a tank with only a sponge filter and a heater and nothing else. The best way to avoid diseases and sick discus is preventative work. There is obviously no getting around the shipping stress and if you have to cull now, it's better to do it now than later. Keep some clove oil on hand.
To continue with the KISS principal, you have to make sure of a few things that will make your discus keeping easier:
-make sure to age your water.
-treat the aged water right before using the water
-if you have bubbles after a WC, add a pre filter to your hose to help with the bubbles.
-dont worry too much about the pressure coming out of the hose during WC's. Dont point right at them but they can certainly take some high current for a small amount of time.
-make your WC process easier. This helps in the long run of discus keeping. It doesn't become a chore to keep doing daily WC's which can easily start getting annoying.
-when siphoning water, use a bulkhead strainer at the end of your hose. No more discus down the drain lol.
-when doing a WC, dont disconnect the heater. Keep horizontal at the bottom of the tank or you WILL forget to connect it at some point.
-make your own BH mix. This was my best investment in the hobby. You make food that you know is quality and it will make your discus nice and big.

I'm sure I can think of a million more things but I'll let you absorb those for now. If ever you have a question, shoot me a PM and I'd be more than happy to help out. When it comes to illnesses though, Al is the man as well as Rick but not sure if Rick is still hanging around.

[Pices]

I have no opinion to offer here, except I always heed Pat’s advice and James makes a good point too.
I am finally catching up on these threads and can’t believe you found (and saved) that fish! I couldn’t pick it out in that pic. Good job! Great thread! Good luck with your baby.
Patty

[Tshethar]

Hello there Bill :). I've been meaning to reply to your thread for a few days now. Your style of writing and updating reminds me of me. I am an update friend and you can check out a thread of mine from a while back where I raised 25 1" discus in a 75g tank. It was my first time raising from that small a size. Check out the thread in my sig.
One of the best advice I can give you is the age old saying in all aquarium hobbies, and that is the KISS rule. Just keep it simple. Ask any breeder, discus arent difficult to raise. They need clean water, good food and did I mention clean water? You can literally raise discus from fry to full grown in a tank with only a sponge filter and a heater and nothing else. The best way to avoid diseases and sick discus is preventative work. There is obviously no getting around the shipping stress and if you have to cull now, it's better to do it now than later. Keep some clove oil on hand.
To continue with the KISS principal, you have to make sure of a few things that will make your discus keeping easier:
-make sure to age your water.
-treat the aged water right before using the water
-if you have bubbles after a WC, add a pre filter to your hose to help with the bubbles.
-dont worry too much about the pressure coming out of the hose during WC's. Dont point right at them but they can certainly take some high current for a small amount of time.
-make your WC process easier. This helps in the long run of discus keeping. It doesn't become a chore to keep doing daily WC's which can easily start getting annoying.
-when siphoning water, use a bulkhead strainer at the end of your hose. No more discus down the drain lol.
-when doing a WC, dont disconnect the heater. Keep horizontal at the bottom of the tank or you WILL forget to connect it at some point.
-make your own BH mix. This was my best investment in the hobby. You make food that you know is quality and it will make your discus nice and big.

I'm sure I can think of a million more things but I'll let you absorb those for now. If ever you have a question, shoot me a PM and I'd be more than happy to help out. When it comes to illnesses though, Al is the man as well as Rick but not sure if Rick is still hanging around.

Thanks, Ricardo, and great to hear from you! I remember all your help as a Mod back in 2016 as well as your grow out thread. I remember in particular some really good systems for discus (like the bulkhead halfway up with the strainer you could attach siphon hose to), and lots of attention to your overall designs, both aesthetically (nice background!) and functionally (silent drain, nice overflow, etc.). I remember seeing nice fish from Al Castro and you were trucking along... then I took a break from discus and this site when my group went down and next thing I knew it seems like you've turned reefer! What the hell? :confused: :D Just kidding. I haven't done saltwater since 2003 but there's lots to enjoy there. Anyway, don't be surprised if I take you up on your PM offer and feel free to keep chiming in as we go.

I'd say the only thing I am either not already doing, planning to do, or can easily do as needed right now is the beefheart mix. That's a maybe. I have seafood mix in the freezer that I made as a first foray into homemade mixes, and the big fish like it but it includes some pieces that are too large and on the whole it pollutes the tank quite a bit. I was feeding it sometimes before WCs, but with the tank still cycling it seemed like a bad idea. So, we'll see. If my fish are getting outpaced by the frontrunners I may change my tune... :guitarist: :)

[Tshethar]

I have no opinion to offer here, except I always heed Pat’s advice and James makes a good point too.
I am finally catching up on these threads and can’t believe you found (and saved) that fish! I couldn’t pick it out in that pic. Good job! Great thread! Good luck with your baby.
Patty

Thanks, Patty! I know, right? (I can't believe I found him either, and he's fine.) Oh, and he's not in that pic. I was not going for the camera when I laid eyes on him, a good 2 minutes or so after he went out the window, to capture the scene for posterity! I was running with him, and my only quandry was whether to stop off at the sink to try to wash the mud off of him or whether to just go right for the tank. (I picked the latter.) Afterwards I decided the whole thing deserved some visuals.

Since then I've been using the bucket at least part of the time for WCs... e.g., at night when seeing outside would be a problem. I may also stick a small piece of sponge in the end of my hose as a mini-strainer. And my eyes are glued to what I'm doing the whole time now. Pretty soon the fish will also have their part down...

Fed a lot of BBS after this morning's WC. Saw the dark one eating some before I left. Been gone all day but will be curious to see how things are when I get home...

[Tuterosso]

only microscope say what hapend

[Tshethar]

only microscope say what hapend

I'm afraid you're right. I've been watching the various threads that come up in which people like yourself, who either practice veterinary medicine or otherwise have background in identifying microscopic pathogens, weigh in on what might be appearing in feces, on gills, on the bottom of the tank, etc.

Honestly, I never thought my interest in the aquarium hobby would lead me to consider buying a microscope! But having been here for a while, I can understand why someone invested in their fish would do so. And with the community that browses the forum, it seems someone who wouldn't know what they are looking at might get enough help to apply proper treatments when necessary or possible, and avoid unnecessary and potentially harmful ones.

I can't say the prospect of learning about discus disease pathology attracts me to the hobby (:crazy:)--and I'd prefer to skate along with no need to cultivate deep knowledge, especially at the moment--but it almost seems like an inevitable part of it for those who stay in the game.

I suppose if I end up with a microscope in the next few years I can justify it as a learning tool for my young son, who may yet have a certain (albeit limited) appreciation for all the fish stuff his dad is up to these days. (Otherwise, I'm afraid my wife will see it as yet one more illustration of my utter lack of sanity and healthy boundaries when it comes to my obsession, I mean, "hobby.") :idea2:

[Tshethar]

Midweek update:

Been busy with life and work and fish but happy to take a moment at day's end to report on things. I appreciate the posters and the lurkers who have taken an interest in these fish and my story with them, so I'll try to keep the news coming.

I'll bet most of you could predict that option #1 above was going to be a little hard for me to choose decisively at this stage. Given that I don't yet know enough about what I'm seeing, and I attribute a certain amount of real value to the idea of "fish as subjects," let's say (and not just objects), it was going to be hard for me to give up "prematurely" on the one falling behind. (I also think that if I had breeder experience as well as clove oil on hand, or had ever watched a whole batch of fry go down quickly, then my choice might have been different, and rightly so.)

#2 was okay, but also a little hard. Good not to overdo, but the status quo with good basic husbandry wasn't looking like enough for this guy.

#3 seemed too haphazard. As stated, without a microscope, no way to really know much about particular causes in order to recommend particular treatments.

So I went with #4. Here's what I tried (with a nod to Skylar for the initial post-shipping rescue using a similar tactic):

118740

118741

The container is the upper portion of a worm keeper used for live blackworms; it has a really fine screen mesh on the bottom that allows water to filter up, but seemed like it had a chance to contain the BBS pretty well. I had a new batch ready today, but since the output on my hatchery is pretty limited I wanted to keep the other fish away and see if I could give this guy a chance to get going with the one food he seemed to show real interest in...

[Tshethar]

The results, unfortunately, were not too much different from what we'd been seeing:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ermM4q6QIO0&feature=youtu.be

He definitely pecks, but just lacks the drive to really eat. Seems to me to be the kind of thing that consistently comes through the disease or ER threads, and doesn't go away for people without metro and/or more, options that I imagine no one would really recommend given his age/size and how important early development is.

So, that is a bit of a downer--especially the part about probably needing to "making the call"--but at least I feel good about giving this setup a try. I've been super busy so no time to figure out where the clove oil is sold, let alone buy any, which if nothing else has allowed me to procrastinate on that and just keep up with looking after my other fish!

:fish:

The good news there is that everybody else is doing great and seem to be well settled. I think the interesting choices going forward will have to do with food; this is generally fun and a chance to do things either similarly to or differently from others.

Since right now I'm disinclined toward making a beefheart mix--and don't have time right away--I'm going to keep trying different options I already have, including some high-protein ones. Today decided to see if the immersion blender would do a better job of grinding FDBW, as my hand grater was a little suspect.

118742

Seemed to make a gray mess, which I guess is good! :)

118743

Fish enjoyed!

118744

[Tshethar]

These guys are ready to show the world how to attack a meal!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wZbljo8viM&feature=youtu.be

[rickztahone]

Looking good. The "call" may come earlier than later but it has to be done I think. Falling behind this early on will probably impact the discus for the rest of its life

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, catching up from last night. The little one you separated is eating in the video. Ricardo makes a valid point, if it is impacted for more than a couple days it really can affect the fish for the rest of it's life.

The rest of the fish look great. :D
Pat

[Jody]

From a logical perspective only, not experience, I would remove the fish from the rest at the very least so as not to infect or damage others as a first step.

That way you can give it the care it needs and continue caring for your other fry.

[brewmaster15]

Bill,
I am going to diverge from the other opinions here. I have had zero issues with this pair as far as any sign of diseases.. in fact I would go as far as saying they are probably one of the healthiest pairs I have ever owned. I barely see a lost fry . GIven this background I would you not cull him at this point unless it shows outward signs of bacterial infection. My reason is if you had 30-50+ fry you would be spot on in culling. But for the contest you have 10 or less small fry. There is a synergistic effect when fry are in a group and feel safe and compete with each other for food. They tend to eat more and grow faster. Even if this one is a runt and doesn't grow it still fills the role at this point of a padding the comfort zone. I would try and get it doing a tad better and if you can reintroduce it to the group. Remember.. Your goal is to get one fish as big and well developed as you can... don't lose sight of that.

Its true we would love a group of evenly growing fry... but with this contest thats not the ultimate goal. Alot can happen in a year... I would hold on to everyone of the fish if I were a challenger... besides seeing how poorly a fish can grow is just as informative as how well in group of fry for the watchers and participants.

Jmo,
al

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Al and everyone else for your well-reasoned replies. I've been back and forth with this decision and I feel good about that process.

It's funny, in politics its always a fatal flaw to appear to be "waffling" or "flip-flopping," or to change your views--whatever they are--but in the rest of life, it seems to me it can be a virtue to reserve judgement, consider lots of opinions, wait on new information, and sometimes change your mind.

I like to be intuitive about my fishkeeping--and for the contest I don't have that much down to a fixed schedule or quantity (whether that is percent water changes, number of feedings per day, or hours of light on the tank--though the last one is probably because I didn't put a timer on it so far.) It's harder when my prior experiences in the hobby might not inform me enough to create a strong feeling about my decision-making, which has been the case here.

Anyway, I must have come to about 3 different decisions about that fish yesterday and kept trying to find the proverbial "middle way." Didn't really want to kill 'em, didn't want him to suffer needlessly, didn't want him to jeopardize the others. Ordered the clove oil for fish hospice care but don't have it yet. My BBS supply comes and goes and I actually have a tank of angel fry in the lobby of the building where I work (!), so I thought I'd try to give some of them a chance and was saving some of it to drop in there... kept him in with the others yesterday to see whether he might eat with the group, but I don't think he goes for other options.

Evening water change came and I decided the time to remove him had come. I put him in a small dish and thought he might quietly pass away in a peaceful spot.

Meanwhile... it turns out I have had a larger discus with a low appetite I have been nursing in a hospital tank for the past week or two. Had treated with salt and heat, and then with a levamisole bath. He's doing okay and will eat a little, but only pellets and pretty slowly. So yesterday was day one of metro for him....

Bedtime came and I took a look to see if the fish had expired in his dish. Nope. There he was, hanging out in an inch or two of water. Sigh.

Into the hospital tank he went. :)

He's still there today, getting some metro and heat. No expectations for him at all, but I'll throw some BBS in there later along with the hikari pellets for his new friend and see what happens... :)

[Tshethar]

Update: small fish passed away.

Not a surprising outcome; feel good about giving him a chance.

:angel:

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry it passed Bill :(
Pat

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Pat. :)

[Tshethar]

Terrible, terrible day.

Lost half the fish.

No idea what happened. Just awful.

Maybe one of you can figure this out but I'm at a loss. Head-shaking, swearing, total loss. At least, as of now, I still have 5 fish. Maybe they'll make it.

So, I did a water change yesterday morning, no different than every other day. Same procedure using the colander. Here's what they looked like right afterwards:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MesQgOrU3zg&feature=youtu.be

There is only one hint of something unusual here: if you watch the silicone in the background, you can notice a little bit of white particulate matter floating around. Whatever this is, it's the only sign I have had of a problem, and I don't know what it is. It's not food.

I don't remember thinking anything was amiss and I went about my day. I had noticed a bit of this white particulate floating around, and it reminded me a little of the stuff that forms on the heater suction cups in my adult tank, that I try to get off with tank wipedowns. (You know, "discus slime" or biofilm of some kind.) I haven't been doing wipedowns so I did one with a paper towel last night. It seemed like there was a fair amount of this stuff floating around so I did a big water change, 90-95%, something I have done a number of times with no problems. I add 2 tbs of salt and Safe. After last night's change it seemed like the fish weren't happy. They were gasping and hanging around at the surface. I thought maybe it was microbubbles from the colander. Added another tbs of salt and decided not to feed, and left them alone. I still saw some of these particles, or precipitate, and wondered whether I had something going on in my aging barrel, and it was getting pumped in from there. Thought maybe I needed to clean it with a little bleach, maybe let it dry out. But I hadn't seen this precipitate going into my adult tank, which is getting the same water, and they are all fine. Also don't see anything in there.

I woke up this morning and found one dead, and many others struggling. Alarmed, I didn't know what to do. Seemed like a water change could stress them, but something in the system was clearly affecting them. I tested for ammonia and nitrite--none. I drained half the water into a bucket and rinsed the sponge filters in there--first time doing that; found lots of the white particulate matter. Refilled the tank using a foam block to trap bubbles, added salt and Safe, and observed. Fish were struggling. Dropped the water level down a little, trying to reduce pressure on them and increase surface tension. My son had a soccer game so decided to leave and hope for the best.

3 hours or so later, came back and found three more dead. At least one other one still breathing rapidly near the surface, but seems like he has a good chance to make it. I had a polyfilter around so I stuck a piece in the tank on top of the sponges to pull out anything toxic. Put some BBS in as first feeding of the day; some fish are eating, some aren't. Here's a little pile of the particulate matter that's collected on the bottom:

118809

Sitting here watching the survivors now and four out of five seem stable. Really, I don't know what the hell happened. Really bad. Hope the rest of them pull through. :(

[modealings]

That’s a major bummer Bill - esp without knowing what happened. Reminder of how fragile they are at this stage. I hope the rest pull through!

[Tshethar]

One more video of the current state of affairs. One or two little guys are ready to eat; you can see some white stuff clumping at the bottom; and some of my bigger fish still breathing rapidly and looking stressed hanging out near the surface... :( Tough day. Sure hope I can learn something from this, as right now its a big mystery to me. :huh: Guess I should have been squeezing out the sponge, despite wanting to establish a biofilter? :huh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn2Sqi3yTb0&feature=youtu.be

[Tshethar]

That’s a major bummer Bill - esp without knowing what happened. Reminder of how fragile they are at this stage. I hope the rest pull through!

Thanks, Eric. I appreciate it. And it's weird, as they seem like they're tough and fragile all at the same time. Maybe it's easy to get lulled into a false sense of security, as I was confident they'd be fine after how well they'd done up to now. You're right that the not knowing part is the worst.

You can be sure I'll be rooting for the rest of you if I fall by the wayside. For now hoping I'll have enough to keep going....

[Second Hand Pat]

Oh man Bill, so sorry :( My only thought is something in the water. Are you on city water?...perhaps they added something to the water to help clean the pipes? Are you aging your water? Hope the remaining ones do ok. :(
Pat

[Tshethar]

Oh man Bill, so sorry :( My only thought is something in the water. Are you on city water?...perhaps they added something to the water to help clean the pipes? Are you aging your water? Hope the remaining ones do ok. :(
Pat

Thanks, Pat. :( Me, too. We are on city water. I know they've been spraying a lot for mosquitoes around here of late... don't know anything about what else the city is up to. I do have a carbon block (one) between my water supply and my aging barrel, though, so I had been assuming I was okay. Not sure whether adding the Polyfilter helped stabilize things or not.

Hoping for the best from here... definitely a rough day. :(

[jeep]

Sorry to hear this Bill. Pat may be on to something about the water. I've been planning to write a post about the changing seasons when water chemistry can be a real problem...

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear this Bill. Pat may be on to something about the water. I've been planning to write a post about the changing seasons when water chemistry can be a real problem...

I thought of that too Brian. Another thought with the mosquito spraying is are your windows open Bill?
Pat

[Tshethar]

No on the windows. I know there are times for reservoir "turn over" and such here but it's still been hot; don't think we're seeing those kind of seasonal changes just yet. I've started pulling in some water from the water heater into my system, but don't really think that's the cause. And while of course these guys are more sensitive than other fish, I would have expected more of a reaction from my other discus if there was something that really did make it past my carbon prefilter...

My best guess at this point is that I may have been getting some kind of (bad) bacterial growth in the sponge as a result of some decaying blackworm fragments/bbs and the like. I don't know how convinced I am by my own theory; but maybe this depleted the oxygen, or led to some toxin being produced? I'm grasping at straws a bit, but I do see some possible signs of white on the fins of one survivor, which makes me think bacteria may be part of the story.

[rickztahone]

Was this tank previously used? Was it resealed?

[Tshethar]

Thought I'd give a last update for the day.

The good news is that the tank stabilized. I did a 50% water change tonight with a foam block (no microbubbles) and the fish look normal. A hint of something on the fins on one or two of them, but nothing I'm too concerned about.

Here's two pics right after the water change, and a very short clip of them eating half an hour later.

118811
118812


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8Q4C2Gywn0&feature=youtu.be


Still stumped about what devastated the tank between last night and early this afternoon, but glad I still have a group of five fish.

[rickztahone]

Do you ever share equipment from this tank and your other ones? Do you clean your hands when you switch from one tank to the other?

[Tshethar]

Was this tank previously used? Was it resealed?

No--brand new.


Do you ever share equipment from this tank and your other ones? Do you clean your hands when you switch from one tank to the other?

No, I've been careful with this in general. I do this tank first. It is in the same room with three other tanks, however, so I can't say that there isn't some chance of cross-contamination.

Appreciate the brainstorming, especially if it can avoid a repeat, or something similar for anyone else.

[Second Hand Pat]

Glad to see everything has settled down Bill. Smooth sailing from here :D
Pat

[fljones3]

Good to see that things settled. I was heart-broken with you.

[Tshethar]

Glad to see everything has settled down Bill. Smooth sailing from here :D
Pat

Me, too, Pat. And yeah, oddly enough, maybe it's back to normal, just like that.


Good to see that things settled. I was heart-broken with you.

Thanks, Frank. Appreciate you saying so. I figured I would put out a little good news at the end of the day yesterday assuming some others who got sucked into my thread would find the day's events as frustrating and depressing as I did! :fried:

Honestly, I could probably sit here and write pages about the emotional dimensions of keeping fish, and how and why we process it all as we do. I'll just say this much instead:

At least for me, the hobby is satisfying and meaningful when I'm invested in the well-being of my fish. If I get bored or negligent, I don't feel too good about it. Being invested means I identify with them at least to a certain point, at least imagining what makes them happy, etc., like clean water, good food, good dynamics with tankmates, etc. At the same time, it's natural to hold back some emotionally given their fragility and short(ish) life-spans. Losing them is part of it, and I suppose it's easier emotionally to not care about it, since dealing with death and grief is otherwise so traumatic. But I think caring about it is better in the long run. :)

The fish I have left are eating normally this morning and seem to be doing fine. And sleep does wonders for us all. The journey continues... :heart2:

[jeep]

Very nice Bill!!!

[Pices]

Oh Bill, that is sad news especially since you don’t know what precipitated the event. Not knowing would make me more nervous going forward. Kudos to you for your diligence. The remaining “fab five” look great! I’m rooting for them!
Patty

[Tshethar]

Oh Bill, that is sad news especially since you don’t know what precipitated the event. Not knowing would make me more nervous going forward. Kudos to you for your diligence. The remaining “fab five” look great! I’m rooting for them!
Patty

Thanks, Patty. As a matter of fact, I'm super nervous right this second--there's something going on and I'm now back to feeling sure it has to do with my water supply. I still don't know what it is, though.

Right now my large discus look ready to die after a water change I did half an hour ago!!! Running carbon (no more Polyfilter) in their tank and holding my breath as they all sit at the surface in a clump, darkened, stress bars, and clearly uncomfortable. They were totally normal before the water change. The only difference is that some of the water they just got wasn't aged.

I have 30-32 gallons of aged water to work with; the first of it went into the contest tank, and using my foam block to eliminate bubbles, it was as smooth as can be. The 5 remaining fish were immediately ready to eat, and are active and looking bright. Second 10 gallons went to a fish in a hospital tank below, who is eating well on his metro course and showing no signs of stress.

I then did about an 80% WC on my 40 breeder, and I started refilling the barrel while I drained. Pumped in about 25 gallons or so, 10 of which was aged, and things seemed okay. After I added the rest (non-aged, but prefiltered), it was clear that this water was not good for them. It's temp matched, no microbubbles, and I just checked the tap pH, and it hasn't changed from 6.4-6.6. I did mix in a fair amount of hot water in the barrel, to whatever degree that might matter. (Before recently our "cold" was about 80.) I had used a little Safe, but when I saw them having troubles, I wondered about chloramine getting past my one carbon block prefilter so I added more. I also added 4 tbs of salt when I saw them struggling. Still no good, so I ran and got the carbon going.

10-15 minutes later and all but one are still glued to the surface. No idea what to make of this. These guys were fine during the other tank's crash, and I've used a similar approach most evenings since we started the contest, though they probably got a little more non-aged water than normal.

While before I thought maybe there was something going on just in the contest tank, now I'm back to feeling suspicious about the water supply. Man I hope the carbon does the job and they start looking better... still no real clue what is happening, and hope they take a step back from the brink. Too much!!! :crazy: :fried:

Updated: An hour later they are starting to come around, slowly--just now lightening up and coming out of the top corner. Looks like they have recovered. Phew!

[danotaylor]

During the mid-summer in Toledo, when Lake Erie is suffering it's blue green algae blooms, the municipal water supply is hit with a major increase in chlorine & chloramines (and who knows what else) to avert microcystin poisoning from the blooms. Sadly the microcystins are not destroyed by this practice. I 1st discovered this issue when after doing my regular water change on my tropheus tank all my fish were gasping on the floor of the tank within minutes. It took 10 times the regular dose of prime and running fresh carbon in my sump to save them. From then on I ran all of my water through a 5lb carbon filter prior to adding it to my tank. Changes to standard water treatment practices should really be disclosed so the aquatics community can make the necessary adjustments.
I am glad you caught it early and moved to action Bill, and I hope all is well by the morning.

[Filip]

Im sorry for your loss Bill .
I hope you'll have more luck with the remaining 5 .
Unaged water may have stressed the grown discus in the other tank . Do smaller
30-40% WCs when your water is unaged .

[Willie]

During the mid-summer in Toledo, when Lake Erie is suffering it's blue green algae blooms, the municipal water supply is hit with a major increase in chlorine & chloramines (and who knows what else) to avert microcystin poisoning from the blooms. Sadly the microcystins are not destroyed by this practice. I 1st discovered this issue when after doing my regular water change on my tropheus tank all my fish were gasping on the floor of the tank within minutes. It took 10 times the regular dose of prime and running fresh carbon in my sump to save them. From then on I ran all of my water through a 5lb carbon filter prior to adding it to my tank. Changes to standard water treatment practices should really be disclosed so the aquatics community can make the necessary adjustments.
I am glad you caught it early and moved to action Bill, and I hope all is well by the morning.

This is another reason for conditioning your water if you live in a part of the world with four seasons. The leaves will be dropping soon in Minnesota. The amount of decomposition will raise the BOD level in our sewer systems and the local water company responds with a high pulse of chloramine. I experience this most every Fall. Fortunately, using 2 - 3X dechlor will take care of the problem with conditioned water.

Willie

[Pices]

Wow Bill it sounds like you’re between a rock and a hard place. Glad they are perking up but it does sound like your water is the issue. Can you add an aging barrel?
Patty

[Tshethar]

Hey everyone,

Thought I'd jump in with an update after taking a few days away. Appreciate the feedback and suggestions re. the water issue I was having.

Honestly, I think my thread might be thought-provoking here and there and might also illustrate how things can go wrong even when we are paying attention and trying to get it right! Good news is that experience really does make a difference and I'm getting some. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, right?

So, if people are looking for someone to emulate, hard to ignore what Brian is doing over in his thread, and Pat is no slouch, either. I have a feeling others are getting good results, too, just without as much to see so far. As for me... well... a couple of mistakes so far and we'll have to see whether I can stay in the game.

I'd say both mistakes are easy to make, though hopefully I won't make them next time.

The first had to do with the water changes. Seeing other people doing large ones, I couldn't resist the idea that 90-95% was better than 50% or 75%. In my mind, lots of clean water was going to promote growth, and I didn't think I was taking a risk. What I learned is that everyone's water is different, and in my case I didn't take seriously enough the distress I saw in the fish. Not really blaming myself on this one, as normally a big water change with aged and temp matched water is common practice, and doesn't kill fish. (And it was prefiltered with carbon.) In hindsight, wish I'd added more Safe and carbon or something similar (like the polyfilter) when things looked off. I'd like to think I'll have a better idea what I'm seeing if something like this happens again.

Since then, I'm changing no more than 75%, twice a day. (And being careful with my larger fish, too.) All's been normal since.

The next mistake I made was one that was more my fault, to be honest. I fed crumbed up Hikari pellets on Tuesday night and noticed that on Wednesday morning one of the fish looked bloated, and was hanging out a bit by itself. These pellets are good quality but their moisture content and softness isn't as high as the DiskusGold Al sent; as my larger fish love them, I thought I'd see if the small guys might go for them more aggressively, but it was too soon. I didn't have epsom salts in the house, and didn't think I had an emergency on my hands. Watched the fish during the day and thought, "yeah, he's bloated, not going to eat today, we'll treat him tonight" and went about my business for the day. Saw him in the evening and thought he'd didn't look too good; went out to the store and came back with the salts only to find him dead on the bottom of the tank. :( So, learned that intestinal obstructions can go bad pretty fast, and that it's a good idea to have everything you might need on hand before you need it.)

This means I'm down to four fish. A pretty horrible showing, no? :eek: Oh well. Try to learn and get better, right? Good news is that the fish I have left are getting along fine and after seeing what others are doing and what these guys like, I'm feeding more BBS and FDBW. The largest fish is a snakeskin and I think has good potential, so we'll keep at it and hopefully keep learning (and without further fatalities!!!)

118877

[Second Hand Pat]

Pulling for you Bill. These little guys have been learning curve for me too. I think I am finally on the straight and narrow with them and hope you are also. Crossing fingers that all goes well from here on out for you.
Pat

[Paul Sabucchi]

Glad you manage to be positive and rightly chalk it up to experience. Hang in there!

[Pices]

The biggest reason i didn’t get in on this challenge was my 12 hr work days. From what I’ve read, things can go south quickly for even the keenest observer. I like your attitude going forward and the biggest one is pretty big so here’s hoping you and yours can stay strong! :cowboy: Hats off to you.

[Tshethar]

Pulling for you Bill. These little guys have been learning curve for me too. I think I am finally on the straight and narrow with them and hope you are also. Crossing fingers that all goes well from here on out for you.
Pat

Thanks, Pat. I see you experimenting and changing course in small ways, which does at least help prevent me from thinking that everything up to now should have been a piece of cake and I'm an idiot! :crazy: :o ;) Here's hoping we all get past the first stage and hopefully things will move along steadily, predictably, and positively from here!


Glad you manage to be positive and rightly chalk it up to experience. Hang in there!

Thanks, Paul. I'm doing pretty well with it. Obviously disappointing, but so it goes. I learned before that discus aren't for the faint of heart, but I still like them and I'm pretty determined to be successful. Fortunately things have calmed down and my other grow out tank is doing well, which helps.


The biggest reason i didn’t get in on this challenge was my 12 hr work days. From what I’ve read, things can go south quickly for even the keenest observer. I like your attitude going forward and the biggest one is pretty big so here’s hoping you and yours can stay strong! :cowboy: Hats off to you.

Thanks, Patty! I think you're wise (discretion, valor, all that...), but I also would bet you'd do great. (I could understand, however, if you didn't want to do extra fish work right before and right after your shifts!) My work schedule is flexible and has been especially so this fall, which is one reason I went for it. I can be home more than usual, and can go back and forth a fair amount. Admittedly, though, I'm trying to do a balancing act and I may have underestimated what it takes, and not really accounted for how much time I actually do or don't have. (Times like these I really envy those who are retired, or have grown kids, etc., let alone things like landscapers and house cleaners! Unfortunately none of my water changes impress my spouse when there's work to be done around the house! :-)) Last Saturday morning when I lost three of them, I consciously chose to go to my 8-year-old's game with my wife rather than stay home and keep an eagle eye on them, which I otherwise would have done, and maybe should have in hindsight. While I'm happy about my priorities in general, the fish could certainly accuse me of failing them, partly out of ignorance but also because I was short on time when they most needed watching.

Oh well. We do the best we can, right? If I think back to my teenage self I'm sure he'd be amazed to find I am as consistently responsible as I am! :)

Hope everyone is having a good weekend and I'll try to get some encouraging footage of the fish I have soon. :) :fish:

[Tshethar]

Post-water change video from Sunday night... group is small now, but looking good today:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2PaEa_l8zg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0NohdIq0Tk

[danotaylor]

Looking great Bill. Nice clean set up. Happy little buggers ;)

[Tshethar]

Looking great Bill. Nice clean set up. Happy little buggers ;)

Thanks, Daniel. They are looking happy right now and I'm glad to see them all eating vigorously and feeling comfortable in the tank. I was worried that the small numbers might mean more hiding, less eating, or targeted aggression--and I'm sure any or all of that can still happen--but so far, so good. The biggest one is really happy to pack away food and fortunately the smallest is also doing a good job of stuffing itself right now. At least with the small numbers I'm not having to worry about bio-load problems in the small tank. :)

I also admit I've been testing the percentage of water changes and noting that the fish seem fine with more than 75%. I now use a foam block to diffuse the agitation (and bubbles), and the process right now seems stress free. I also treat the aged water with a liberal dose of Safe.

Feeding BBS, FDBW, DiskusGold pellets, and Brine Shrimp Direct flakes. Probably feeding 6-10x/day and changing between 150-180% daily.

[Tshethar]

Well, I'm not much of a photographer, and I moved the light to see if it would help, but it only succeeded in getting these guys to huddle in the front corner. The good news there is that I could add least get a group shot that way. :-)

Here they are, saying, "What the hell are you doing, changing the lighting like that?"

119018
119019

Otherwise, been a good week. I have two snakeskins and two turqs. The turqs were among the smallest fish I received and they're still smaller, but growing and making progress. One of the snakeskins (far left) was one of the "bigs" I got, and has also stayed that way. Food has generally been small and diffused throughout, so everyone has access and I've rarely seen the big one "resource guarding," though once or twice at the end of a feed I've seen him do it a little with FDBW. Dynamics overall are good. Realistically I'm probably feeding 6x a day (not 10!), but try to let them have enough to graze on for a while. Looking forward to seeing how they go from here!

[Tshethar]

Here's a better look at them before this morning's water change... hanging out with the occasional graze...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D--K0jZU1Y

All's been well with them. I add extra Safe with the WCs, but otherwise haven't seen or done anything unusual. Colder nights now, starting to feel like real fall weather--makes me want to get outside! (Could see changes with municipal water, but so far, so good.) Hope everyone has some nice weekend weather wherever you are!

[Second Hand Pat]

They look great Bill. Glad the small number of fry does not seem to have any issues. I have noticed with wilds that if you have a large group and remove some of the fish the smaller sized group still seems stable.
Pat

[Tshethar]

They look great Bill. Glad the small number of fry does not seem to have any issues. I have noticed with wilds that if you have a large group and remove some of the fish the smaller sized group still seems stable.
Pat

Thanks, Pat. Yours, too. Good to know that you've had that experience with your wilds in the past. I'm hoping it may remain like this; if I'm lucky I don't have a psycho "boss" like you and Adam may (or at least a fish in need of therapy :).) So far there isn't much pecking order stuff going on, yet they still can rely on each other when they get nervous about whatever I'm up to.

Hard to say if the low numbers will have any effect on food consumption... maybe that will be something I can watch (and document) over time. They at least encourage each other, and nobody is getting shut out. So far it seems pretty good. :thumbsup: Looking forward to seeing continued growth, along with some color and shape!

[Tshethar]

One interesting thing to emerge so far for me Willie just mentioned in his thread: Bryan has managed to get uniform growth from his, something that seems ideal but does not seem to have been realized elsewhere. I'm really curious about that. There definitely was a difference in sizes among the fish we all got, yet he was able to close that gap. If I remember he may have attributed that to heavy BBS feeding early, combined with water changes, and continuous lighting. Anyway, some more conversation about that may ensue in their threads, but there may be something to learn here.

In my case I'll note that my BBS hatchery doesn't produce really large quantities, and unless I added a second one it's hard to have a consistent supply all the time, so that has always been one food source among several for me. Of the things I'm offering them now I'd say the FDBW are #1 on their list. Would love to see if the smaller fish can do some catching up as the growth continues, but not sure how to make that happen, if it is still possible.

[warblad79]

One interesting thing to emerge so far for me Willie just mentioned in his thread: Bryan has managed to get uniform growth from his, something that seems ideal but does not seem to have been realized elsewhere. I'm really curious about that. There definitely was a difference in sizes among the fish we all got, yet he was able to close that gap. If I remember he may have attributed that to heavy BBS feeding early, combined with water changes, and continuous lighting. Anyway, some more conversation about that may ensue in their threads, but there may be something to learn here.

In my case I'll note that my BBS hatchery doesn't produce really large quantities, and unless I added a second one it's hard to have a consistent supply all the time, so that has always been one food source among several for me. Of the things I'm offering them now I'd say the FDBW are #1 on their list. Would love to see if the smaller fish can do some catching up as the growth continues, but not sure how to make that happen, if it is still possible.

Your group seems to be doing just fine:thumbsup:

[Willie]

I recommend you wean them from BBS. It's an okay food, particularly to get stressed fish (from shipping) eating again. But in my experience, BBS do not put on size like more solid foods. Of course, I'm partial to beef heart.

Willie

[Tshethar]

Your group seems to be doing just fine:thumbsup:

Thanks, Bryan! Appreciate it coming from you; when I have time to think about doing anything differently I'm paying attention to what you have going on! (Was looking at those Tropical baby granules this morning, and love the Altum Floras you're working on.)


I recommend you wean them from BBS. It's an okay food, particularly to get stressed fish (from shipping) eating again. But in my experience, BBS do not put on size like more solid foods. Of course, I'm partial to beef heart.
Willie

Thanks, Willie. Learning a lot from your thread, too. I've noticed the largest fish isn't as into hunting the BBS down anymore, so recently I've just kind of hoped that if I got them early (with newish yolk sacs) then maybe they would help the smaller ones bulk up a bit in comparison. I think it might have helped, but now that they've grown I'm inclined to take your advice. (I also made a mental note to check out Dan's site for frozen beefheart to see what that option looks like. I have a seafood mix in the freezer but it was my first effort and while my larger discus like it, it's both messy and too chunky, and I've yet to ask my local meat dept. about special order beefheart... All seems a bit much with what I have going on right now.) I tried Ken's beefheart flakes once a couple years ago but my fish didn't go for them, despite the fact that his other flakes are good and my discus eat them. I never searched around for another supplier after that. For now thinking that they'll get their vitamins and such from Al's pellets plus the Brine Shrimp Direct flakes (admittedly lower in protein) and, unless I order something to add to the mix, it looks like they're going to chow on some FDBW. Just started experimenting to see what they could really do with them today, and they're tearing it up. We'll see if I can afford to keep them on those! :o

This is the second half of a cube, only about 4-5 hours after I put the first one in...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUp1PDgl58A

[warblad79]

You try should Dan's premium beefheart mixed flakes combine with Tropical baby discus granules and Al's Discus chow 0.8mm. I'm sure you will get better results in no time. Just feed them 4x a day and twice WC.

[Tshethar]

Thanks for the suggestion. I did check those out online and thought about making a purchase... ended up noticing he had a couple of different beefheart products, with different protein amounts, plus one with pro-growth added... In the end I decided not to order more food, as I have some good quality flake with 50% protein that the discus readily accept. (I bought it in part because Eric at Carolina Discus once recommended it on a flake thread, after they had tested lots of other options. I've made the mistake plenty of times of buying too much food and letting it get stale, so I'm going to stick with what I've got for now.

I did discontinue the BBS with no problems and they are now getting flake a couple of times a day, Al's pellets for breakfast, and FDBW at least once, usually at night.

Their water change came late tonight, and they were excited about seeing the worms again... couldn't resist a quick video, exactly 4 weeks since I received the fish!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64hmmCV01Mc

It doesn't take them long to make short work of them...

[Second Hand Pat]

That's cool Bill and no one hogs the cube. :D

I placed a 1/4 cube on the glass and the larger fry pushed the smaller ones away. Tried it with three 1/4 cubes stuck to the glass with same result. So I am still grinding the cubes into smaller pieces, soak it in warm water and use a syringe to place it in different parts of the tank and everyone eats.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Well, the process continues and seems like (touch wood) we're in a good stretch right now. To be honest the most daunting issue may be trying to prep the move of my other discus from the 40 breeder they're in to my living room tank so that I can free that tank up for these guys. (Or else my living room tank becomes from L144 BN pleco tank until I can get everything in place, and their 40 gallon tank opens up...) First need to re-home a group of Africans (redfin borleyi)... Anyway, having the smaller group is buying me more time, which is welcome.

Meanwhile, my group of four are coming along, and they're good company, too, both for me and for each other. Did a thorough cleaning today and decided it was time to try to gauge their size a little, so here is a water change pic, followed by some before and after they stuff themselves with blackworms. :)

119145
119146
119147

That feels better... let's eat!
119148
119149
119150

We're stuffed...
119151
...for the next couple of hours...:)

[danotaylor]

fat happy lil bellies!! lookin great mate!

[Tshethar]

Thanks! :) :thumbsup: I'm more than happy to see them coming along.

[Mr.BigBlock]

Lookin' good!

[Second Hand Pat]

They look great Bill and so happy the smaller group is not an issue :D
Pat

[Tshethar]

Lookin' good!

Thanks!


They look great Bill and so happy the smaller group is not an issue :D
Pat

Thanks, Pat. Me, too! I feared the worst when I dropped below 5-6, and given I'm a novice at this and couldn't really explain with confidence what happened a couple of weeks ago when I lost most of them, I wasn't too optimistic about staying in the game. At this point I'm thrilled.

Of course it's fun to see what is happening as far as size, shape, and color is concerned with these guys, but I'm not going to worry too much if my fish are a bit behind folks like Bryan, you, or anyone else, so long as the growth rate ensures they're progressing pretty well and not getting stunted. Hopefully the genetics will ensure good results so long as I stay consistent, and like you, I'll be paying attention to what others are up to. (Still thinking about the beefheart myself, but would also like to imagine it isn't absolutely necessary.) :)

[Adam S]

Looks like they're growing very evenly despite the losses. Great job.

If you'd like, you can remove the extra media on top of your sponge. It should be seeded enough and ready to go.

[sanjay21]

They are looking great Bill :) Good job !

[Tshethar]

Looks like they're growing very evenly despite the losses. Great job.

Thanks, Adam. It was a tough loss in the 18th the other night, but the fish and I have really had each other's backs the whole season; we've stayed on an even keel and I'd say they've bounced back well. :) I may have to start calling the big one "Pearce." :thumbsup:

If you'd like, you can remove the extra media on top of your sponge. It should be seeded enough and ready to go.

I agree. I've been thinking about what my next steps are going to be re. filtration. (If I had another, larger tank ready I'd like to move them before they really require it.) I've left that sponge in with the idea that I may use it to seed something else--such as a secondary external filter for the short term--or to help establish whatever I'm using when I move them. (I've got the materials for a Mattenfilter on a 40 breeder once I figure out how to open one up.)

I also like redundancy (or at least some extra media/colonizing space) in case I get a little overzealous with cleaning. It shouldn't matter with all the water changes we're doing, but I once lost a bunch of fish a few years ago after a water change when I had only one sponge in a 29 that I squeeze out pretty intensively (and in tank water!). They were tough fish (N. Pulchar), but at the time I thought they must have gotten an ammonia spike, so since then I've been a little leery.

I realistically don't need to worry much about that, but the bigger question of what's next is definitely looming!

[Tshethar]

They are looking great Bill :) Good job !

Thanks, Sanjay! Yours, too! :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, what options do you have tank wise? I moved mine to a 40 breeder with a foam divider. I have two sponges in the tank, one on either side of the divider.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Hi Bill, what options do you have tank wise? I moved mine to a 40 breeder with a foam divider. I have two sponges in the tank, one on either side of the divider.
Pat

Hi Pat, that's my plan--to set up a 40 breeder with the Mattenfilter kit, which I already have, and start somewhere in the middle of the tank with the foam and gradually expand floor space for the fish. Will use the jetlifters so that the foam itself becomes most of the bio-filter, but will bring over the existing cube filter to seed things.

Problem is, the two 40 breeders I have aren't empty!

And unfortunately, I have come to realize that my plans for "musical fish" will require more than a trip to the LFS to re-home some Africans. Once my Alenquers go from the 40 they're in and out to the living/dining room to make way for these guys, I'm going to need to arrange another "water station" for them, on the other side of the house. :crazy:

So, that means aging barrel, heater, air pump or powerhead, possibly sediment/carbon prefilter, another pump and possibly new hose(s) for draining and filling... maybe even an outdoor storage closet for the mops/brooms/misc stuff in the tiny laundry/utility room that will accommodate this. I can probably do everything except the storage container for $250 or less, but lets just say that my "hobby" has already been rather demanding in various ways of late... (time, money, space.)

Here's hoping the first of the month will help the family bank account look a little better prepared for more miscellaneous spending on my part! :sorry: (Hoping not to have to add therapy or marriage counseling to the budget!!! :argue: :o :love:) I'm going to have to find the right moment to broach this topic... maybe I'll start with, "I won't be getting another tank, and I will be moving some fish out of the house." :rolleyes:

[Willie]

Getting rid of the Africans will be your best bet! :evilgrin:

Willie

[xKevinx]

Looking good! Nice fat lil bellys I love that pic

[Tshethar]

Getting rid of the Africans will be your best bet! :evilgrin:

Willie

No doubt. That's been the plan all along, and if I'm lucky they will help subsidize my addiction. (Hoping they're not taking it personally... :devil:)

Problem is that my wife already knows this, so I'm not sure moving them along will represent much of a compromise! I might have to resort to more weekend housecleaning... :waaa:

[Tshethar]

Looking good! Nice fat lil bellys I love that pic

Thanks, Kev! They really will fatten up on the FDBW. They graze pretty well on the other foods for sure, but they love the worms. If they act similarly with beefheart, I could be persuaded to add some as it's definitely nice to see them really attack their meals.

[Tshethar]

Alright, I confess that the excitement of the contest was a little too much for me to resist sampling some new food featuring... yup, you guessed it... beefheart! (I could have been the guy who successfully grew them out without it, but my only real reason for that would have been because I wasn't feeling excited about making my own mix right now. So I decided to hop on board the train...)

At minimum, I wanted another high-protein item on the menu they might really fill up on, so I got some of the freed-dried cubes, which don't have any fillers at all. Here are the fish getting their first look at them... excited but trying to figure out what to do with this new food!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozQ3Ie-zfSo

[Tshethar]

Afraid I made another mistake last night. :(

Thought that my main storyline this weekend would be to what degree the fish would go for a new food--they didn't like the beefheart, at least in the way it was presented, so I siphoned it off in the morning and went back to flakes and FDBW yesterday.

At the end of a long day, I did a late water change and started thinking maybe another "pancake" photo would be in order as part of the documenting process. Well, I drained the tank way down... though I often do... though went far enough that the fish flopped around a little more than normal and showed some stress. So, I decided to skip the photo and just add water from the barrel. And Safe. Temp was a couple degrees colder, but not too much, at least 81. Things seemed okay, fed them and went on my way. Came back just before late bedtime and light was off, but could see with room light that the largest fish was hanging near the bottom by the sponge not looking like himself. Wasn't sure if he had overeaten a bit, or was still recovering from the water change and whatever stress it might have caused him. Only option I had might have been to add a little salt, but I just decided to turn off the lights and let everyone rest.... Unfortunately, I found him dead this morning. :(

Good thing I'm keeping my day job, evidently. No fun, losing yet another (and my largest). Nothing to do but keep going, albeit a bit glumly today. Others are fine at day's end. Seems I have a tendency to misread what these guys can handle. (Though I don't honestly really know what did him in, outside of stress, apparently.) So, that's where we are. On the plus side, I can still end up with some fish to join my main group if I don't kill the rest of them!

I guess my thread will have to serve as a warning to everyone who now wants to get dime-sized fish and have them turn out like Bryan's in a month's time! :embarassed:

[Mando]

No doubt. That's been the plan all along, and if I'm lucky they will help subsidize my addiction. (Hoping they're not taking it personally... :devil:)

Problem is that my wife already knows this, so I'm not sure moving them along will represent much of a compromise! I might have to resort to more weekend housecleaning... :waaa:

Worst case scenario, I can buy most of the africans for my pond. It’s 2,000+ gallons.

[Second Hand Pat]

Oh no Bill, I wouldn't think a couple of degrees would matter. How did you present the BH? So sorry about this! :(
Pat

[Tshethar]

Worst case scenario, I can buy most of the africans for my pond. It’s 2,000+ gallons.

Mando, if you'd enjoy them I have a nice group of adult Copadichromis borleyi (1m/3f), but I'm not sure about the cost of overnight shipping, which I think they'd require at their size. Feel free to PM me and I can share pics and we could chat more if you like. There's a specialty fish store about 40 min from here that seemed willing to take them if and when I got back in touch with them, but I haven't gotten around to it. I do have some fish boxes around and could probably ship (though without oxygen) if an SD member was excited to have them. They'd do well with that kind of room.

[sanjay21]

Sorry to hear that Bill :(

I agree with Pat, it may not be the change in temperature. Probably something else .. maybe bloat ? or choked on the beefheart ? Either way sorry to hear that. Beefheart you are feeding, is it finely minced ?

[Tshethar]

Oh no Bill, I wouldn't think a couple of degrees would matter. How did you present the BH? So sorry about this! :(
Pat

Thanks, Pat. Head-scratching I'm afraid. The slight temp difference between the calibration of heaters in my barrel vs. the tank (both on controllers) shouldn't explain it, and I also don't think the food caused an issue, either. (I dropped in a freeze-dried cube, and later broke it up some with my fingers, but they didn't really go after it too much, just picked a little, so I removed in the morning. They had other food during the day.) Figured I would try again with a grater or something like you use, but wasn't too worried about it.

All I can say is that I really let them flop on the bottom with virtually no water, though of course we see experienced people doing similarly with their fish pretty regularly here (though usually adults). I don't know, maybe he hit his head on the glass... don't really think he had much time to get cold, as the water returned quickly. Those would be my best guesses, besides just a big stress response. Sometimes he really stuffed himself with FDBW but he wasn't full or bloated, just a little patchy in coloration when I found him, which is probably because he expired early in the night.

[Tshethar]

Sorry to hear that Bill :(

I agree with Pat, it may not be the change in temperature. Probably something else .. maybe bloat ? or choked on the beefheart ? Either way sorry to hear that. Beefheart you are feeding, is it finely minced ?

Thanks, Sanjay. Appreciate it. I guess choking is a possibility I hadn't considered; not sure what that would look like, but I don't think so, as they didn't eat too much (just picked) and this was more than 12 hours after it was removed. There were FDBW in the tank when he started looking bad so if he had a problem with anything it was them, but he never seemed to struggle to break them up, and hadn't totally gorged himself (as usual) before he went down.

You guys are great to commiserate, by the way. :) If I didn't have tank space issues already I'd start angling on how to get y'all to send me fish! :) (Though I'm not sure that would be in their best interests! :laugh:)

[Mando]

My 2" alanquer recently had a bloat issue and it's because he is a vacuum cleaner! I immediately added 1tbl of Epsom per 10 gallon and he discharged it by nightfall. That's why I'm afraid of feeding to the point of the round bellies i'm seeing in the grow out challenges. However, I did reduce the portion amount, but increased the frequency of feedings throughout the day.

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, my only thought is maybe the FDBWs had not totally absorbed water and once inside the it sucked some of the moisture out of the fish. Al cautioned us about that. When I press the FDBWs halves against the glass I press out all the air I can. I would think the fish are too big for that but I do not really know.
Pat

[modealings]

Bummer, Bill. In remembering back to your struggles a few years ago with your group then I just cant help but think there is something odd in your water. But I know you have another tank that's doing well so it's hard to pinpoint...

[Tshethar]

Oops... tried to write a post earlier but didn't send and closed my browser... anyway, I'll try again...


My 2" alanquer recently had a bloat issue and it's because he is a vacuum cleaner! I immediately added 1tbl of Epsom per 10 gallon and he discharged it by nightfall. That's why I'm afraid of feeding to the point of the round bellies i'm seeing in the grow out challenges. However, I did reduce the portion amount, but increased the frequency of feedings throughout the day.

Makes sense to err on the side of caution it seems to me. I did lose one to a dried pellet a couple of weeks ago when I didn't have the Epsom salt in the house, and he went down within about 8 hours or so. Smaller and more frequent feeding seems like a good plan, and I admit to going a little off script and letting them gorge themselves on the FDBW once they were big enough to eat them. (Seemed to have been getting away with that with no adverse effects.) Sanjay reported in his thread that he's had some fry start choking on beefheart at a small size before, too, so I can see why one has to take care during this phase.


Bill, my only thought is maybe the FDBWs had not totally absorbed water and once inside the it sucked some of the moisture out of the fish. Al cautioned us about that. When I press the FDBWs halves against the glass I press out all the air I can. I would think the fish are too big for that but I do not really know.
Pat

That's an interesting thought, Pat. I wonder if there could be something of a cumulative effect. I usually press a fair amount of the air out of the cube, though admittedly so that it will stick better more than for any other reason. That fish hasn't struggled to eat the worms for the last couple of weeks, but he's also usually the first to line up for food so it's possible a dry worm could have added to his troubles... hard for me to think that was the prime cause, though. But it could have made things worse if he was already on the ropes.


Bummer, Bill. In remembering back to your struggles a few years ago with your group then I just cant help but think there is something odd in your water. But I know you have another tank that's doing well so it's hard to pinpoint...

Thanks, Eric. Hard not to go with this answer, especially in the absence of other really compelling ideas. This was the first time I added water and then Safe, rather than the other way around... though really, a few seconds or two there shouldn't matter. But there's no doubt my water has produced some bad results at different points, starting two years ago. Could be there was a bit more chlorine in it yesterday. I've had the tanks react a bit badly sometimes on different days, and sometimes due to different percentages of water changes, too. Think I've learned not to do 100% if I have a choice.

Lately I've been meaning to take a photo of my sediment prefilter. I've been running about 60 gallons per day through this for about six weeks and even at 10 microns it's pulling out a lot of stuff, either clay or iron or both. Here it is:

119402

Easy to blame everything on my water (maybe too conveniently so), but it's definitely given me some cause for suspicion.

[Tshethar]

Hey all,

Thought I'd check in with a status report. Truth be told my remaining 3 fish (!) haven't looked that good over the last week, which makes it less exciting and fun to report on them (of course). This is the time in the process when it would be easy to start neglecting maintenance a little (or a lot), as the whole enterprise is looking pretty questionable when it comes to producing good results.

Since I am not the type of person that does everything each day on a set timetable, I can appreciate the benefits of doing so. It removes the question of whether you "feel like" doing something or not... truth is, water changes can lose their luster, right? (I'll definitely be looking for some automation if I can ever have a fishroom!)

At this particular time, I'm really glad the WCs are as easy to do as they are, and that I have become as habituated as I have. A couple of times I haven't done 2x/day, but that's maybe 2 days in 10 when I had some sort of event or activity that kept me out of the house until day's end. Tank has gotten at least one big water change every day without fail.

Still, I think maybe I haven't appreciated how much particulate matter from the FDBW in particular was accumulating in the sponge filter, so that I should have been squeezing it in a bucket a little more often. I usually use my siphon to suck whatever I can off the surface of the small sponge(s), and do occasional wipedowns, but I've been battling a little bit of what I think is a bacterial issue that shows up on the fins of the fish. They've been a little darkened over the last week as well.

Haven't worried about it much or done anything differently; seems like the kind of thing their immune systems take care of with clean water, but it's been one more sign that things aren't quite perfect here in my corner of the contest. Dropped the temp a week ago a degree from 83-84 to 82-83...been holding off on kanamycin... could try a little salt... but I think the main thing may be to keep the sponge a little cleaner and keep up with the wipedowns.

Anyway, they're growing and doing alright. Think I'll go do my water change... :)

119511
119512
119513

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, glad to see you (and the fish) are holding in the there. I hear you on the water changes. I have missed a couple due to other activities in my life. The fish look good but bump your feedings up a little and get those foreheads to fill out a bit. :)
Pat

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Pat. Still feeding 'em, still changing their water... seems like they are doing pretty well. Definitely eating....

119606
119607

[Willie]

Nice going, Bill. Stick in there!

Willie

[Tshethar]

Nice going, Bill. Stick in there!

Willie

Thanks, Willie. Staying with it! Still a chance to have a few nice adults.

So far they haven't really taken to the dried beefheart, but they're eating well enough and growing. And I try not to look at Bryan's fish too much! :p (just kidding!) ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, try to soak the BH prior to feeding.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Bill, try to soak the BH prior to feeding.
Pat

Thanks, Pat. Broke it apart today beforehand; will try soaking it as well. May just take them a little time to adjust to a new food. I thought they'd go nuts for it, but I suppose these guys are known for their, ah, discerning palates... We'll see how it goes and report back. At least they're happy with several other good foods.

[sanjay21]

Bill once they start tasting the worms a few times they will be going crazy for them :)

Keep it going :) good luck !

[Tshethar]

Bill once they start tasting the worms a few times they will be going crazy for them :)

Keep it going :) good luck !

Thanks, Sanjay. Nice going with yours.

The worms have been a favorite of theirs from early on... it's the one food I can count on them to really pack away and in short order.

The freeze-dried beefheart is another story. Not so interested. They're okay on the flakes, though, and will accept some pellets, so I'm not going to do too much other than change water and hopefully move them before too long.

[Tshethar]

Okay, I admit that I've been a little shy with photos lately, but I'm going to see if I am mature enough to show my second-class fish! :laugh:

They've seemed a little darker over the last week or two, but their behavior suggests they're okay. They've been more likely to get 1x/day rather than 2x/day 100% WCs this week, and I find myself wanting to get them into a bigger tank with more filtration. Will see what I can do about that with the holiday break.

Nevertheless, we're still here. :cool:

119818
119819

[Tshethar]

Enjoying the discussions I'm seeing on the other threads, which is enabling me to keep learning as I go. Feel less of a need to upgrade the tank space, but want to make sure the conditions are what they need to be to sustain health and growth. Added an air stone to increase circulation and gas exchange; fish seemed to appreciate it.

[danotaylor]

Keep at it Bill!! At least you had the courage to give it a go mate, well done!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Bill, I am so glad you are hanging in there. The best way to learn is by doing it yourself. I was part of the 2013 growout challenge and it ended up in utter failure for me. But with the encouragement of our members I hung in there until there was no hope. Read it here if interested http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?96770-Withdrawn-Pat-s-Contest-Fish-Wild-Tefe-F1-quot-Batch-B-quot. Please continue and make these fish be the best they can be. :D
Pat

[Tshethar]

Keep at it Bill!! At least you had the courage to give it a go mate, well done!!

Thanks, Daniel! As long as the fish are game then so am I. I feel lucky to have these to learn from, and while it's no fun to have problems, there's no doubt that I'll be a better hobbyist for having tried. And I may yet get these three to adulthood...

[Tshethar]

Bill, I am so glad you are hanging in there. The best way to learn is by doing it yourself. I was part of the 2013 growout challenge and it ended up in utter failure for me. But with the encouragement of our members I hung in there until there was no hope. Read it here if interested http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?96770-Withdrawn-Pat-s-Contest-Fish-Wild-Tefe-F1-quot-Batch-B-quot. Please continue and make these fish be the best they can be. :D
Pat

Pat, I enjoyed reading through your journey with the Tefe. Really hope your new wilds from the show are doing well for you after you took a break. And yeah, I see that you went through lots of effort and disappointment working with that second spawn. Nice seeing the photos of your group from this go round. :thumbsup:

As for me, I think my psychology about discus is getting better. Past the "why me!" stage, let's say. :laugh: I recognize that I can run into similar or new problems to those I've had at any time, but I'm learning more all the time and I might also have smooth sailing and hardy adult fish to enjoy, too. (I'm admit that I'm glad to have a second tank that's doing well right now.)

Will definitely keep working with them, and honestly I'm feeling like they're doing okay at the moment, despite their limitations. Hoping for the best from here! ;)

[Tshethar]

Had a little scare day before yesterday as I tipped my aging barrel so my pump could get the last bit of water out a couple of days ago. Unfortunately the cord to the temperature controller (which hangs on the side) ended up underneath the barrel, and when it refilled it was pulled just enough to loosen the plug at the wall. I drained the contest tank and was in the middle of my usual lightning-fast refill when I suddenly realized the water was cold! :eek: Between 70-71, in fact, a good 13 degree drop from where the fish had been.

Decided to watch them and let it ride unless they were in trouble. Since they could hang out in the warm spot by the heater, they seemed okay. They were actually torn about whether to swim out to get to the worm cube I added, or hang back and warm up. They mostly worked on getting warm, and I'm happy to say their temp was back to normal after a few hours, with no one the worse for wear. One of them got a tiny bit of discoloration on the outer edge of his dorsal fin, maybe from getting too close to the heater, I dunno. But they showed some of their resilience, and look fine today. :grin:

[Tshethar]

Need to improve my lighting, but here are some quick snaps with the phone... terrible quality, I'm afraid. Will try to do a bit better over the weekend.

120023
120024
120025

[Tshethar]

Okay, it's the weekend, so time to quickly move on from those terrible pics! I'm actually glad the forum remained silent about them, as that was probably the best that could be hoped for! :p

Still, I think there are three things of interest going on I can mention as we go forward from here. Well, one is not very interesting, but it is the fact that I haven't thought about lighting for the tank for photography or for showing off the fish in general. I have a small finnex freshwater light on it that was once a plan for a freshwater refugium that would be plant-filled for nitrate removal. So I've had partial coverage, not sure what spectrum, plus shadows from my tower of sponge, which has contributed to what you see above. Thinking about a cheap full-spectrum LED that can stay with this 10gal, which may improve the look of things.

Nevertheless, #2 is that the discus still look a little dark to me in comparison to other contestants' fish, which has been the case for 2-3 weeks, it seems to me. So, last night I finally supplemented my filtration with a breeder box I've had laying around, and basically came up with a relatively slow-flow HOB filter where the extra sponge now lives, along with some 50 micron filter fiber I had to pull out more particulate matter. I also had some Purigen around that I decided to recharge and I'm planning to throw that in as well and we'll see if that makes any difference. If nothing else, the water clarity is better and I'm enjoying that. (Will need another round of pics or video later to see if we show much by way of comparison.) Fish seem happy with the circulation.

The last thing I'm thinking a bit about is the shape of these guys. There was a reference in Pat's thread to "the dreaded double-chin," and it's something I see here, especially in the largest of the three. Been hoping to ensure his forehead rounds up, but you'd think I'd been feeding him junk food all day if you look at his lower half. (Do FDBW have a high fat content? I'm sure I could look this up...) Hopefully this corrects itself; it may be I should worry less about making food available as often as possible and instead try to get in the two water changes/day rather than one.

Ultimately, I'm glad they're growing and developing--definitely able to set my own goals and not worry too much about the competition, yet having other reference points is very helpful for the process.

Hope whoever is getting some of Al's next batch will use these threads similarly, and will have success! :)

From yesterday just after WC and filter addition:

120119
120120


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbjzJNvJfcY

[MickO'S]

Hey tshethar,

That biggest fish has some size to it ! How big do you estimate it to be ??

I have a few young ones too ......... not as small as you started with but one or two are getting a bit of a double chin !

I’ll be watching closely to see how yours grow over the few months

Thanks for posting:)

Mick

[Tshethar]

Hey tshethar,

That biggest fish has some size to it ! How big do you estimate it to be ??

I have a few young ones too ......... not as small as you started with but one or two are getting a bit of a double chin !

I’ll be watching closely to see how yours grow over the few months

Thanks for posting:)

Mick

Thanks a lot, Mick. I haven't had a lot of browsing time on the forum in the past few days, but I'm glad to hear that your new group is eating well and growing for you. Maybe we'll end up learning more about encouraging good shape in discus as we go...

[Tshethar]

So, I decided to take a series of photos last night of the fish to get some practice, as Pat has rightly encouraged. As two of my fish were on the small side (euphemism for runts) and the other has a double chin, I'm not pretending that they're show fish, but we can still document, right? At minimum I'm glad to be able to show that they're (a) still alive and (b) apparently growing. Haven't ordered a light yet (thinking about Liz's cheap Ebay find as the price is right), but I think the changes to the filtration are allowing them to show just a little better. Here we go:

First a couple shots of the larger snakeskin:

120156
120157

And a few of the group:

120158
120159
120160

And dinner time:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvchHCfkh-E

[Tshethar]

Hello good people of the forum...

Here we are moving into December and the journey continues. My setup is mostly the same and I'm still working with the 10 gallon tank given my very small group of fish. As mentioned above, my setup has changed slightly from the beginning as noted above with the addition of a second air stone and the breeder box HOB, which now has a bag of purigen as well.

Water changes have been 1x/day, 95+%. I think one reason for this is because my aging barrel has been a bit slow to fill, which has meant I didn't usually have or want to take the time in the morning to mess with it. The cause for the extra time is because my pre-filtration setup was clogging up. I think I showed most of this once upon a time, but Steve asked about WC process and I have this in the middle of some python hose I have that quick-connects (with their brass fittings and adapter) to my bathroom sink:

120253

I bought it for $25 on Amazon and have used it for about 3 months, running between 30-60 gallons per day through it and when I changed it out today I feel like I've gotten my money's worth.

120254

My tank setup is next to a barrel about 10 feet or so from the sink, so i use the short extension Python hose on one side of the filter, which sits on the floor next to the barrel, and the usual siphon end in my barrel. I usually drain my tank out the window with a short piece of 1/2" hose, though at least around 3 times a week (this has varied, but was becoming more frequent due to the FDBW), I was draining a couple of gallons into a 5-gallon bucket so I had some tank water to rinse my sponges in. Wipedowns seem to be required also about 3-4 times a week as I do get white film on the glass and on anything rubber like suction cups and air line.

[Tshethar]

Anyway, the fish are coming along. I added some Tropical d-50 baby pellets to the mix, and continue with Al's pellets, flake varieties from Brine Shrimp Direct, and FDBW. They haven't yet gone for the freeze-dried beefheart, and I haven't been trying, as I'm not that concerned that they get it. (My other fish have taken a while to warm to it, but they will eat it if I break up the cubes.)

This week's photos for the file...

120255
120256
120257
120258
120259
120260
120261

[Tshethar]

Somehow the video updates seem like they do a little better job of showing them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMuaBPhbIiY

;) Happy fishkeeping!

[Tshethar]

The journey continues... no real news to report. May have the option to move these guys into a 40 sometime in the next few weeks, but for now on auto-pilot. Doing 1x 95% WC/day and feeding about 4x. I may be overfeeding a little from the look of their shape, I dunno. Just going to wait and see how it goes from here. At least no health issues or problems to report. Color is appearing more noticeable in general, and I'll have a new light for the tank showing up in the mail soon. Happy Holidays and will plan to measure soon!

--Bill

120433
120434

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Bill, I am really glad you decided to hang in with these guys. They are looking better. :) I am most curious to see how they develop as they continue to grow.
Pat

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Pat. I'm still enjoying them. :) Hopeful they'll keep looking good in the months to come.

Not sure how great it is for the forum, but kind of nice that we've been in a slow news cycle... guess we'll have to manufacture some click bait!

[Tshethar]

Afraid I spoke too soon on the slow news cycle... :(

...and I'm now going to have to bow out of the contest, I'm sorry to say. I'll continue watching how the other contestants do and hoping others achieve good results.

Disappointing and frustrating day. "Discus keeping--good for helping people get in touch with their anger." Might have to make that my tag line. :bomb:

Anyway, here's what happened: I had some free time and decided to install a whole bunch of equipment I have either had on hand for a while or just received. The main thing was an HMF kit from Swiss Tropicals for a 40 breeder, which I finally decided to put on my blue-eyed bristlenose tank. Anyway, I was doing a lot of work in my small fish area--water change, glass cleaning, installing a new air pump and reworking my existing hoses and valves among three tanks, cutting the foam for jetlifters, and installing new lighting. All went great.

Then I put a new light on the juvie discus. When I went to plug it in, I saw my snakeskin laying on the floor under the tank. He had jumped at some point while I was moving around, I didn't hear or see him, and it had evidently been early in the work process... There is a gap near the back where I installed the breeder box HOB, and he evidently found it. Tried getting him back in the tank, moving him around, etc. but to no avail. He was long gone. Decided to measure him--he came in at about 2.5 inches.

I'll keep my two runt turqs but I don't think there's a need to post any more pics or to continue narrating here. Hopefully I can mix them with my adult fish at some point; I'll keep them where they are for now and I guess we'll see.

Thanks for following along and hope some of what's in this thread might be of help to someone at some point. Not a happy camper today, but I do feel like I went down swinging, so to speak, and if I ever have spawning discus I'll have a better idea what's involved in raising them. Good luck to everyone else with your fish! :bandana:

[jeep]

Sorry for your frustrations Bill! Thanks for being a part of the challenge!!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear this Bill, you really gave it the good, old college try. I do know how you feel. I was in your shoes in the 2012 growout contest. Hugs!
Pat

[RickMay1]

The contest is definitely "hard mode" but incredibly educational. I got some of Al's fish from a later spawn at the same size and it kicked my arse for sure. I felt like Jon Snow...."I knew nothing". Thanks for giving it a go, I'm sure like me you learned a lot.

[Tshethar]

Thanks, all! I appreciate all the sentiments. I have learned a lot and I'm glad I took the challenge. Obviously it's no fun when things go south, and some of us have trouble accepting the fact that a certain amount of "failure" is part of the learning process.

Funny, but I think the whole business has the potential to give me as much insight into my own personality as it does discus-raising... usually when advising other people (i.e., college students), I'm "process-oriented" rather than "outcome-based." You know, get into good habits, make good effort, make thoughtful decisions, try new things, learn about yourself, adapt, gain new skills, think about who you want to become and all that. Usually results follow naturally, but not always, or at least not immediately.

But it turns out it's hard to take my own medicine! :)

Turns out raising discus is tough, even when you try to follow the general prescription and stay consistent. But I'm happy with my effort and approach, and I think I have some ideas that will help me do better next time. And it's hard to imagine there won't be a next time. :)

Meanwhile, I'll be appreciating with greater depth what experienced people are doing. It's impressive!

[Second Hand Pat]

Good post Bill, what do you feel is the difference between "process-oriented" and "outcome-based"?
Pat

[sanjay21]

So sorry to hear this Bill! I was just going over your post. It’s a difficult moment when you see a fish jump of out of the tank dead. :(

[Tshethar]

Hi again SD folks,

Well, as most of you know I joined with enthusiasm at the start of the contest but dropped out late in December when I got down to 2 discus from the original 10 that Al sent. :( I was obviously disappointed not to have at least kept most of them alive (!), but as most already know, when things go awry it's not too hard to lose them. They're both tough and fragile at the same time.

A few things I might have learned in hindsight, that might influence future efforts:

1. Really clean water seems like the first priority. The biggest problems came for me with sudden losses of multiple fish within about 12 hours of big water changes. In my case, I don't think it was the high volume that mattered, as many times I changed close to 100% with no problem, and I was aging, aerating, and temp-matching. Rather, my water supply has occasionally been suspect. (I just noticed with my adults that as soon as I disconnected my sediment pre-filter and carbon block the other day, they let me know; for the two days they went with straight aged tap water, they didn't want to eat after water changes. I dunno, maybe they're "spoiled," but they've shown me they can feel a difference. And once before they were seriously in distress after a water change, right after I lost several of the little guys, as I noted in the fall; I added carbon quickly on that occasion which may have saved them.) I'm not sure if I had a chloramine problem or some other toxin in the water, but the little guys went down pretty fast on two occasions, so being careful with my water is my #1 concern.

2. I would get them out of the 10 and into a tank with a bigger footprint earlier, and would add an extra airstone for gas exchange. Might have helped a bit with growth.

3. I'd feed them more BBS in the first couple of weeks--would need a second or a different hatchery from what I was using to accomplish that.

4. Otherwise, I'm not sure it mattered all that much what I was feeding. (Though I introduced a dry pellet that was too large one time and lost a fish to bloat.) Ultimately it's tempting to feed more than necessary, but having them in clean water as much as possible seems more likely to help with growth more than perpetual access to food, especially after the BBS stage.

5. I'll make sure the tank lid is tight all around, and stays that way over time with changes to equipment and such. Discus will jump.

Anyway, there's some food for thought. All in all the contest was a good opportunity for me to learn and I'm glad I was in it. And today I really came on here to share positive news, which is that the 2 smallest, runtiest fish that were still alive back at the end of December soon found themselves joining my group of young adults in a 40 breeder. About 6-7 weeks later, they're still really small, but they've been well-integrated with no issues into what is now a group of 8 discus, which moved a week ago into the dining room. So, here are some shots of the contest fish with their new friends... if nothing else, they're playing a role in the social lives of my main group, and they've been doing fine and look as though they will live on into adulthood (and hopefully keep growing). :)

122637
122638
122639
122640
122641
122642

[danotaylor]

Good one Bill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences mate. They look happy that they're in with the big kids now :thumbsup:

[brewmaster15]

Bill,
Im sorry it did not work out but glad you tried and shared your info along the way.If I do this contest again I hope you consider trying again and using what you learned here.

Al

[Tshethar]

Good one Bill. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences mate. They look happy that they're in with the big kids now :thumbsup:

Thanks, Daniel. I didn't know how things would go when I put them in with the "big kids," and they were nervous at first, but things really did go well. They've basically been ignored as far as aggression is concerned, while also taking pressure off the fish that previously was at the bottom of the pecking order. They defer to the big ones at feeding time, but they get their share and no one bothers them. And once I moved them, the whole group has really been sticking together in the larger tank, and I think they all feel happy about each other's presence. So, they're runts, but I'm glad I have them!


Bill,
Im sorry it did not work out but glad you tried and shared your info along the way.If I do this contest again I hope you consider trying again and using what you learned here.

Al

Thanks, Al. There were some downers along the way but in some sense I feel like things did actually work out okay, even though the two fish that made it weren't the ones I would have chosen from the group. I feel like the experience is definitely going to help me in the future. I'm really too busy with life to have any ambitious plans at the moment, but my fish could have other ideas (and start my education about breeding), so I hope (and imagine) sooner or later I'll have some opportunities to put some of what I've learned to good use. And if there is another contest, I'm sure I'll be tempted to try again!

Thanks for sponsoring this one. :)

[Pices]

Bill you are a great storyteller. Having read your thread from when you started, I really appreciate you sharing your insights with us who wouldn’t even attempt such a challenge. Thanks for the update and the pics of your blended family. So cute! I know I learned a lot from you.
Patty

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Patty, that's kind of you to say. I do love words (sometimes to a fault). And it was fun to have an audience, too, without which it's hard to tell one's stories, or in this case, maybe to have kept up with water changes!

Seriously, the people following along have been unfailingly supportive, either with encouragement and also (I'm sure) in tactfully withholding criticism when looking at my discus! It turns out I pretty much crashed and burned as a contestant, but I think my current fish and I are better for having tried, and I'm glad to know some good may have come from the attempt for more than just us, too. :)

I know I appreciate the chance to learn from all the folks past and present who have posted on here and still do. Hope I'll have some time to keep checking in and learning about the hobby as we go along from here.

[Pices]

Liz keeps saying she’s going to turn me into a breeder yet. Ha ha
Things are going to come up for a newbie that just don’t happen with experienced keepers as would be expected. It’s not even on their radar screen anymore.
This challenge showed me that even experienced fry raisers have problems and that your contribution is every bit as valuable as theirs. I learned so much from all these threads and it’s great knowing they’ll be here waiting for me should Liz ever get her way. Ha ha. My hats off to all you.
Patty

[Filip]

Experience(good or bad regardless ) was the main reasons why this contest was started by Al and you've provided us with lots of it in your thread Bill .
Thanks for sharing your ups and downs along the way here with us .