Long Time Reefer Turned to the "Dark Side" :-)

[Zyvo]

Hey All,
I am a long time reefer and took down all my tanks when I moved last March and decided a little while ago that I will make the plunge into Discus. Beautiful fish with amazing personalities. I took a lot of flack from my fellow community reefers because they said you could never get a tank as pretty as a reef! I set out to prove them wrong!

I am starting a bit "slow" and low tech, currently using my 4' 120g converted reef tank with coast to coast bean animal overflow and a 40b sump. Running 4L of matrix, 1-2L ceramic rings, and 4lbs of lava for BIO. Purfilirum, ChemiPure, and Zeovit for chemical filtration and a few almond leaves.Had to down power my return so decided to go with the new Jebao DCP-8000 sine return pump running at around 50-60%. Went bare bottom with a few med vertical standing pieces of driftwood and some slate for aesthetics. Planning to do either 60g water changes 2-3 times a week or 20-40g 3-5 times a week.

Stock so far, 10 Discus ranging from 2-3" and one ~5" along with a few Corys, a pair of pearl guaramis, and just a couple platys (for now... they keep finding their way to my sump so they may find a new home in another tank).

I have been lurching in the community and absorbing everything that I can but finally decided to register and get as involved as I have been in my past reefing groups :)

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi and a warm welcome to Simply Discus. Coming from the salty side you are not new to fish that can be uncompromising with their requirements. Larger volume water changes (even if less often) tend to be more effective (but not as effective as big water changes even more often - sorry but I have a bad case of the water changing syndrome).
Anyway post us some photos and most of all keep us up to speed with the progress, every new member on this forum adds to the shared knowledge and experience

[Zyvo]

Thanks Paul! Fine tuning and getting on a water change schedule is going to be the tougher part for me. I only changed my water in my reef once a month because running ZeoVit ULNS system... just replaced nutrients and whatever was taken out :-P Had to dose nitrate lol.

[danotaylor]

G'day Zyvo and welcome to SD mate. Glad you joined up.
Sounds like you have plenty of surface area with the media you have in your sump. By Lava, do you mean lava rock? I could be wrong, but my understanding is that lava is not inert and will gradually raise your pH. In a reef system or African cichlids tank that is desired, but not so in a discus set-up (unless your tap pH is <5.5). With the stocking density and the amount of media you have I don't think it would be problematic to remove the lava to resolve this potential situation.
Looking froward to seeing pics of your set up and fish! All the best,
Danny

[Zyvo]

Hey Danny,
Thanks for the welcome! Yeah I use lava rock, which is intert. I even did a test with muriatic acid to make sure there wasn’t any reaction with what I got then. My ph in the tank is a stable 6.8 and hasn’t moved a bit.

[LizStreithorst]

What is your pH straight from the tap?

[slicksta]

You got me with your subject line!!!
. . . but now that I read it, I think you mean a different type of reefer :-D

[Zyvo]

What is your pH straight from the tap?

About 7.2-7.4 give or take. I add neutral regulator and discus buffer and then age it out with aggressive air stones for 24-36 hours before doing a water change. I am probably going to bring my RODI unit back into play and trace it. I am pretty sure I have chloromines and I test ammonia (0.25ppm) straight from the tap so I need to fix that. Though at 6.8 ph at 84 degrees that 0.25ppm total ammonia (nh3/4) is something like 0.0014ppm toxic nh3. Not a huge issue but I don’t like it.

[Zyvo]

You got me with your subject line!!!
. . . but now that I read it, I think you mean a different type of reefer :-D

Hahaha yeah not since college on that one

[slicksta]

It's been a while for me as well, never really got the madness.

[danotaylor]

Sounds good mate. Looking forward to tracking your your new set up. Got any pics you can post? Cheers

[LizStreithorst]

About 7.2-7.4 give or take. I add neutral regulator and discus buffer and then age it out with aggressive air stones for 24-36 hours before doing a water change. I am probably going to bring my RODI unit back into play and trace it. I am pretty sure I have chloromines and I test ammonia (0.25ppm) straight from the tap so I need to fix that. Though at 6.8 ph at 84 degrees that 0.25ppm total ammonia (nh3/4) is something like 0.0014ppm toxic nh3. Not a huge issue but I don’t like it.

Why not simpy skip the chemicals, put the tap water in a container and stick in an air stone? That's the way most all of us do it here. There's nothing magic about a pH in the 6's.

[Zyvo]

Why not simpy skip the chemicals, put the tap water in a container and stick in an air stone? That's the way most all of us do it here. There's nothing magic about a pH in the 6's.

Mostly because of the total ammonia/ammonium that I have in my water from the tap. PH + temp effects how ammonia is ionized into ammonium. Now even ammonium is toxic but about 100x less toxic than ammonia. So a bandaide is do lower the PH to sub 7.0 to reduce the toxicity.

-84 degrees @ 7.4ph (avg ph off tap) with 0.35 total ammonia (my avg from tap) = 0.006475ppm Toxic Ammonia with the rest converted to ammonium
-84 degrees @ 6.8ph (what I regulate/buff to) with 0.35ppm = 0.001652ppm Toxic Ammonia with the rest converted to ammonium

Plus with frequent water changes I end up just adding ammonia to the system frequently. Sure my biofilter would catch up but I would rather not introduce it in the first place. Which is why I will probably go RO.

[Zyvo]

Sounds good mate. Looking forward to tracking your your new set up. Got any pics you can post? Cheers

I am repainting the back of my tank today... it was black from when I had it as my reef and decided to go to something lighter. Once I finish it up and clean it all up I will get some pics out there :-)

[LizStreithorst]

That was pretty much over my head, I'm afraid.

[Zyvo]

That was pretty much over my head, I'm afraid.

haha after years of reefing I am a water chemistry nut some time. Essentially, I have ammonia in my tap water, which is not uncommon around here during hurricane season because they have to keep the water supply clean so they boost chlorine/chloramines and ammonia. By lowering the PH I am converting ammonia into less toxic ammonium. If I leave the PH high I will leave more toxic ammonia in the water :-)

[LizStreithorst]

But won't Prime fix it?

[Zyvo]

But won't Prime fix it?

Prime only binds ammonia, nitrite, nitrate for 24-48 hours. So even if I treat the water I will have to treat the whole tank with prime every 24-48 hours with frequent water changes. By the time my biofilter consumes it I will be doing another water change just adding more :-(

[Zyvo]

Discus Stock so far... a few were just introduced and had a black background until today so we are working on the peppering on 2 of them :-) And cleaning is tonight... dirty bums.

1x Gold Pigeon
2x Snakeskin
1x Marlboro Red
1x Red Melon
2x Hans Flachen
1x Hans German Wonder
1x Blue Diamond
1x Red Pigeon
1x Super Red Turquoise

https://imgur.com/a/MubsQgK


Have a Hans Checkerboard on order through my LFS that I will have in the next couple weeks.

[brewmaster15]

Mike,
Welcome to Simply! I think you will like Discus alot.A couple of things here... first I Think you need to put the reef mind set aside a bit. Discus are a bit more simple in the their needs.. :). Clean water...good stock . good food.

You want to ditch the buffers and chemicals.. most everyone here uses Prime if they have ammonia or chloramines and just does frequent water changes..

I get what you are saying about the Ammonia and pH but really Prime will lock up the ammonia and your biological filter will consume it. If the the tank isnt cycled, prime and water changes will keep it discus safe with
water changes until it cycles. Manipulating your pH is nota good plan and really isnt needed.


One area though that I see potentially a problem is your quarantine. You need to be very careful with where the fish come from and how you quarantine. It sounds like you arent quarantining?

Al

[Zyvo]

Thanks Brewmaster!
I have already started to see some personalities coming out already and they are great so far!

I guess I just interpret "clean" water to be 0/0/0 from the source... but youre right, I lost some very expensive reef fish early in my career due to bad source water so I have been semi-anal about it since. The tank is still young and the bio hasn't totally established and diversified to be as efficient as it could be. I have never cared for PH manipulation in the past because of the potential to deplete the buffer and cause a PH crash. Im not saying its permanent I just worry about my lovely city tap haha. Prime is a great tool!

I don't know what led you to believe I don't quarantine? I have 3 29g quarantine setup (2x sponge 1x UV Canister) and 2 more breeders dry and ready to go each with their own nets and vacs that get the alcohol treatment ;-) I bought the discus in 2 waves, first was about a month or so ago from an LFS that gets them directly from Hans and goes up there and hand picks from their stock. Those were quarantined at their store for a month together (I picked them out and had them start quarantine for me) and then I quarantined them for another ~10 days at my place. The second batch I have I ordered from a place I have ordered from in the past and I know how they quarantine. Those I also quarantined for about ~14 days. I know its a few days short of what is preferred quarantine time but after treatment and monitoring they seemed good to go. I probably should of waited in between a bit more for the bio load to adjust but parameters were ok after the addition. I just put the 2nd batch in Wednesday and they are eating and playing nicely so far.

[LizStreithorst]

It's the mixing of the fish between sellers that gets people in trouble. No matter how long the Discus from each group is together with any problem they could carry a pathogen that the other group has never experienced. Most times people get lucky.

The correct way to QT is to do all the stuff you did plus introduce a sacrificial lamb from one group to the other.

[Zyvo]

sacrificial lamb

Funny, I actually used to do that with my Tangs due to them being exclusively wild caught and prone to disease early on... they are the only fish I have ever had issues with. I didn't realize that was something that people did... I thought I was the only one doing it but I guess I wasn't as smart as I thought I was haha.

[LizStreithorst]

Usually people get away with it. When we don't, it's almost always something that we here know how to treat. There are also a couple of times when it's necessary to sterilize everything and start from scratch. I have been through all three. I have been through the third thing that I have been through twice. It's no fun.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Mike,
Having fielded the Disease board here since the forum's birth I have seen much.:( I am fanatical in my QT preachings here as there are few things I hate more than to watch a Discus Keeper lose fish .. A proper Qt is essential.



Those were quarantined at their store for a month together (I picked them out and had them start quarantine for me) and then I quarantined them for another ~10 days at my place In effect the fish were only quarantined 10 days. Never Never trust a seller to Quarantine for you. A fish store, for example, often gets in multiple fish shipments during the "quarantine period" and odds are high of cross contamination. You also really don't know what someone else is doing if you are not there. Good husbandry is a large part of QT. Quarantine starts when you take possession of the fish.:)


Theres a good discussion here...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?21044-Quarantine-*questions

Be sure to read to the end as it spans years and procedures evolve over time.

A 6 week or longer Quarantine period is my recommendation. Some would say that's excessive:rolleyes:, Its my bare minimum based on my experiences and research. You also need to Quarantine all fish species that go in your tanks. Most fish pathogens we deal with are not discus specific.

Obviously people are free to do as they please with their fish, I can only make suggestions to try and help them avoid pitfalls. The disease board is full of members whose issues could have been avoided if they were patient and quarantined adequately.

Hth,
Al

[Filip]

HI and welcome to Simply discus Mike .
How are your Stendkers doing so far ?
What have you decided to do with your water , do you RO or just went with aged + prime ?
Photos would be nice too .

[Willie]

Welcome to Simply. Unfortunately, you'll need to unlearn reef techniques to successful raise discus. Here's an example.


...Running 4L of matrix, 1-2L ceramic rings, and 4lbs of lava for BIO. Purfilirum, ChemiPure, and Zeovit for chemical filtration and a few almond leaves.Had to down power my return so decided to go with the new Jebao DCP-8000 sine return pump running at around 50-60%. Went bare bottom with a few med vertical standing pieces of driftwood and some slate for aesthetics. Planning to do either 60g water changes 2-3 times a week or 20-40g 3-5 times a week...

My tanks have a heater, a sponge filter and fish. ;) All the money is focused on getting superior genetics.

At our local fish shows, I spend a lot of time looking at the reef tanks. The reefers also spend a lot of time looking at my discus. Here is the fundamental difference between two very different tank set ups.

A reef tank is an exercise in restraint. Huge amounts of equipment is used, most of which is trying to take out nutrients and metabolites. The system is extremely delicate so a lot of technology and very little biomass are requirements for success. Raising discus, in contrast, is like raising pigs. Dump a lot of food in the trough, hose it out, rinse and repeat. Do it consistently and you'll get great fish. Do it inconsistently and you'll get stunted footballs.

Good luck, Willie

[Pices]

“Raising discus, in contrast, is like raising pigs.” I love this analogy Willie! So true and made me chuckle. I’m sure I’ll be thinking of this when I “hose down the trough today..” ha ha
Patty

[LizStreithorst]

I've never heard the difference explained so well.

[Zyvo]

HI and welcome to Simply discus Mike .
How are your Stendkers doing so far ?
What have you decided to do with your water , do you RO or just went with aged + prime ?
Photos would be nice too .

Everyone is doing great so far! I ended up bringing my SpectraPure 180gpd RO unit back up and converted my old salt mixing station to freshwater aging and took out the DI cartridge and replaced it with a 2nd Chloromine Carbon block. Then I add a little Seachem Replenish to pull the GH up a little and dose Discus Trace 1-2x a week. This gives me very consistent water at 6.4ph, 2kh, 4gh, and of course 0 Ammonia/Chlorine/Chlormines.

Here is a pic https://imgur.com/a/9zoX2PW

[Zyvo]

Welcome to Simply. Unfortunately, you'll need to unlearn reef techniques to successful raise discus. Here's an example.



My tanks have a heater, a sponge filter and fish. ;) All the money is focused on getting superior genetics.

At our local fish shows, I spend a lot of time looking at the reef tanks. The reefers also spend a lot of time looking at my discus. Here is the fundamental difference between two very different tank set ups.

A reef tank is an exercise in restraint. Huge amounts of equipment is used, most of which is trying to take out nutrients and metabolites. The system is extremely delicate so a lot of technology and very little biomass are requirements for success. Raising discus, in contrast, is like raising pigs. Dump a lot of food in the trough, hose it out, rinse and repeat. Do it consistently and you'll get great fish. Do it inconsistently and you'll get stunted footballs.

Good luck, Willie

Amen on that. I have never had such pigs in my life. They can be well fed, fat, and happy only to beg for more food when I walk by the tank. I thought my dogs were always in my shadow... these guys go crazy when anything goes near the tank. I go to vacuum or do water changes and they think its food coming and fly up to whatever goes in. I went to net something out of the bottom and they even swam right into the net looking for food... I swear I dont starve them!!! lol.

It is nice to not have as much equipment to monitor and service. My Apex has gone from super power house to very expensive PH & Temp monitor. I am going to setup my DoS to do constant water changes again so that can all be automated for me.