New guy with a couple questions....

[Hendo]

Hey there, a couple questions.....

I have a 55 gallon that I have been cycling with a FX4 for 6 weeks. I got some trusted biohome media from a friend that has a discus tank from same beeeder I will be buying from soon.

I have never seen nitrites. I do finally show 5.0 nitrates, ammonia is 0-.25 (been using prime with water changes frequently) but has always been 0 nitrites. Is it possible I have not seen any nitrites due using existing media?

Also, my tap water PH is roughy 8.0 straight from the tap. My Ph in tank is 7.4-7.5 ish. Would I be ok not to age water and go straight from the tap without stressing the discus? I really don’t have a place for a barrel for aging. I do have a RO unit under my kitching sink with a 3 gallon tank. If I added 3 gallons of RO, possiblly that would help with the fluctuation?

I plan on adding 6 discus very soon from Uncle Sams (they are 10 min from me) Any advice would be appreciated.

PS, Love this site!

Thanks in advance!

Chad

[Rafael]

Hi< how's it going,, I my self am also new to discus. I have been doing research on this matter and talking to Kenny from Kenny Discus, and he has informed me that tap water is ok but to ad prime before adding the tap water. :book:

[peewee1]

Hi< how's it going,, I my self am also new to discus. I have been doing research on this matter and talking to Kenny from Kenny Discus, and he has informed me that tap water is ok but to ad prime before adding the tap water. :book:

Kenny's response suggests that any tap water anywhere should be okay. I presume that he is referring to good old USA tap. I believe that Kenny knows what is right. My experience, using 5 fishes purchased from Kenny 4 months ago, has been tap water cycled for 2 days with Prime added before fish introduced. I have a test kit but have not used it yet. Five fishes all have grown, have vibrant colors, and eat with no abandon any food that I feed them. Maybe I got lucky or maybe I did not over think this as some tend to do. I will admit that after 4 months I have not had an attempt by any of the 5 rascals to spawn. Or that Kenny has very durable and high quality fish that can withstand that which boarders on the extreme of their tolerations...I believe that to be true.

[pastry]

Any plan to get larger tank as they grow? Curious of long term plan. As for RO and aging barrel situation, do a few tests on water straight from tap in a container. After 2 days, test again and look at oh swing. If not bad, then you may not even have worry about aging.

Also, put water on cold only if interested in doing test. Small container/cup. Rinse a lot before filling (so no soap or what not). My current favorite pair is from Uncle Sam's. They're one of my favorite distributors.

[danotaylor]

Hey there, a couple questions.....

I have a 55 gallon that I have been cycling with a FX4 for 6 weeks. I got some trusted biohome media from a friend that has a discus tank from same beeeder I will be buying from soon.

I have never seen nitrites. I do finally show 5.0 nitrates, ammonia is 0-.25 (been using prime with water changes frequently) but has always been 0 nitrites. Is it possible I have not seen any nitrites due using existing media?

G'day Chad,

What have you been using to cycle your tank? Ammonia is an essential ingredient in the nitrogen cycle. Without an ammonia source any beneficial bacteria in your existing media cannot survive, as ammonia is their food. The 1st process in the cycle is the conversion of ammonia into nitrite, and then 2ndly nitrite into nitrate. No ammonia = no nitrite.

Can you please tell us about your cycling process?

Cheers mate,

Danny

[Hendo]

G'day Chad,

What have you been using to cycle your tank? Ammonia is an essential ingredient in the nitrogen cycle. Without an ammonia source any beneficial bacteria in your existing media cannot survive, as ammonia is their food. The 1st process in the cycle is the conversion of ammonia into nitrite, and then 2ndly nitrite into nitrate. No ammonia = no nitrite.

Can you please tell us about your cycling process?

Cheers mate,

Danny

Hey Danny,

Unfortunately I did a fish-in cycle. I have a couple Sterbais and 8 neons in there. I’ve been doing daily water changes adding prime. Ammonia levels have never gone past .5 and last couple weeks it’s been 0-.25 but I have .25 out of tap. I bought a 20 gallon QT tank after reading about it on this site and doing fishless cycle now. Not sure why I would be showing nitrates in 55 unless the nitrite to nitrate cycle happens very quickly and I missed it? Was thinking it has to do with using existing biohome media but maybe it’s still cycling. My plan is to give the neons to a buddy with a community tank and just get 5-6 discus. Just don’t want to add to soon.

Cheers!

[Hendo]

Hi Elliot,
I do plan on getting a bigger tank in future but am hoping the 55 would house 5-6 with a few clean up crew with lots of water changes.

I will try the 2 day test. Thanks for the reply.

[danotaylor]

Ok gotcha Chad, I was wondering how you achieved your ammonia & nitrate numbers...the nitrite is a bit of a mystery though...being a food chain oriented cycle it is not possible to break the chain and have nitrates without nitrites 1st being present. So if your testing kit is accurate and you do in fact have nitrates present, then somehow nitrites had to have been converted...

[Phil4Discus]

Hey there, a couple questions.....

I have a 55 gallon that I have been cycling with a FX4 for 6 weeks. I got some trusted biohome media from a friend that has a discus tank from same beeeder I will be buying from soon.

I have never seen nitrites. I do finally show 5.0 nitrates, ammonia is 0-.25 (been using prime with water changes frequently) but has always been 0 nitrites. Is it possible I have not seen any nitrites due using existing media?


Also, my tap water PH is roughy 8.0 straight from the tap. My Ph in tank is 7.4-7.5 ish. Would I be ok not to age water and go straight from the tap without stressing the discus? I really don’t have a place for a barrel for aging. I do have a RO unit under my kitching sink with a 3 gallon tank. If I added 3 gallons of RO, possiblly that would help with the fluctuation?

I plan on adding 6 discus very soon from Uncle Sams (they are 10 min from me) Any advice would be appreciated.

PS, Love this site!

Thanks in advance!

Chad

Hello, Chad! Excited to see you are jumping into discus keeping! It's rather awesome!

How will your tank be set up (bare bottom or scaped)? My pH from the tap is relatively close to yours. To help with the pH I use driftwood in my aquascapes. I also use peat in my FX4 filter. Unfortunately RO water seems to not do too much as I'd hope in lowering the pH in my experiences, so I've decided to just go with majority tap water. I'd be shocked if 3 gallons of RO water would show any signs of improvement in lowering your pH in the tank. Either way, discus can still thrive in the mid 7s. Biggest advice since you are not going to be able to age your water is to ensure you place prime in your tank before adding water directly from the tap. I use a python hose to add tap, so I'll do a full dose of prime at the beginning and I'll do little less than a half dose in the middle or end of the water change to ensure the tank is treated well.

Edited to add: Before having a python hose adapter to connect to my kitchen sink, I had good ole fashion 5 gallon buckets that I would individually fill with the correct dosage of prime and I'd mix the water and let the buckets sit for a couple hours before adding to the tank. This worked, but it was hard maintaining temperature which is pretty important during a water change. Plus, my wife hated having a whole bunch of water buckets nearly full sitting in the house. hahaha

Uncle Sam's Discus is a great place to get discus. You're lucky to be living so close!

[Rafael]

This is a lot of great information good forum! I have Also I learned as long as you do a pretty decent amount of water changes daily for about two weeks or so you can put your discus in the tank and let them cycle it! Of course Adding prime every time!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Chad,


Unfortunately I did a fish-in cycle. I have a couple Sterbais and 8 neons in there. I’ve been doing daily water changes adding prime. Ammonia levels have never gone past .5 and last couple weeks it’s been 0-.25 but I have .25 out of tap. I bought a 20 gallon QT tank after reading about it on this site and doing fishless cycle now. Not sure why I would be showing nitrates in 55 unless the nitrite to nitrate cycle happens very quickly and I missed it? Was thinking it has to do with using existing biohome media but maybe it’s still cycling. My plan is to give the neons to a buddy with a community tank and just get 5-6 discus. Just don’t want to add to soon.

Cheers!

Unfortunately your tank is no where near cycled. The amount of waste a few sterbai and neons make coupled with daily water changes isn't enough to cycle the tank for anything except those small fish.I would suggest you take those small fish out and rehome to the 20 gal qt tank, then use clear ammonia to cycle. Your friend could supply more biofiltration media or use what they gave you already. If you add discus at this point you will have major issues and major ammonia and Nitrite spikes,

al

[brewmaster15]

This is a lot of great information good forum! I have Also I learned as long as you do a pretty decent amount of water changes daily for about two weeks or so you can put your discus in the tank and let them cycle it! Of course Adding prime every time!

Hi Raphael, This is true and not true. If you put discus is a non- cycled tank, you can get by with daily water changes but they have to be of a volume thats sufficient to remove the ammonia, and if you do that the cycling will take a very very long time,.. as in 4-6 or weeks or more. This is because you are removing the biofilters food each time you do a water change so it really can't develop fast.

You also have to account for your water pH. If you have high pH ( mids 7s on up) any ammonia you have is toxic... The higher the pH the more toxic the ammonia. Acidic water turns the ammonia into a not so toxic form.

Next up is your nitrite levels.. Once the ammonia spikes,, Nitrites will follow shortly after.. Nitrites get absorbed by the gills and bind to hemogloblin, causing brown blood disease, basically the fish can't get enough oxygen when this happens and that stresses them out and can interfer with all kinds of biological processes.


Stressed fish become sick fish as the immune system fails.


Its really not ideal to cycle a tank when fish are present. Best to cycle the tank proper, be patient and add the discus when the tank is cycled. Sure you can just do huge daily water changes instead, but thats not something most people will religiously do with new fish and if you slack, The fish will not do well.

hth,
al

[Rafael]

Thank you..brewmaster, I appreciate the information definitely helps! 🙂

[Paul Sabucchi]

Hi and welcome. Al's (Brewmaster) advice is the safest option. Once you get discus in your tank you will be literally throwing food at them so the load on your biological filtration is going to greatly increase compared to what you have achieved doing a cycle with a few undemanding fish. It is in theory possible for your tank to adjust but it would involve changing most of the water probably even twice daily at least to start with. Considering the expense and the emotional burden of getting your first discus I agree that a proper fishless cycle is the safest bet. With regards to water changes straight from the tap, beyond checking for pH swings, do check for micro-bubbles that can be a problem particularly in winter. If you fill a container do the sides appear coated in small air-bubbles? If so you should try and minimize this problem as they can interfere with the gas exchanges at gill level and be quite distressing for discus

[Rafael]

Ok, I will check for the micro bubbles, as far as waiting to get the fish it’s a little late for that lol upon receiving the information from my sauce the fish have already have been ordered and was assured that it would work. As long as I stick to the routine. I’ve kept angelfish for 10+ years so I do have some experience. Hopefully everything works out thanks again for the information guys!:book:

[brewmaster15]

Might be worth asking the seller if they have a cycled sponge they can include. Some sellers will do this on request.
Good luck.
Al

Ps..Becareful on comparing the Angels and Discus. Though they are similar in many ways, Discus are far less tolerant of poor water quality than Angels are.

[peewee1]

Hi Chad,



Unfortunately your tank is no where near cycled. The amount of waste a few sterbai and neons make coupled with daily water changes isn't enough to cycle the tank for anything except those small fish.I would suggest you take those small fish out and rehome to the 20 gal qt tank, then use clear ammonia to cycle. Your friend could supply more biofiltration media or use what they gave you already. If you add discus at this point you will have major issues and major ammonia and Nitrite spikes,

al

Al, because I am/was a discus breeder/hobbyist from way back I am wondering about all of the processes that I am now reading about on this most excellent forum. At the time I would drive 800 miles from my home to meet with Herman at Fairly Lake. Buy a dozen or so discus from him, put them in my trunk, and proceed to drive 14 or so hours to get back home. Using 20 gallon bare tanks with flower pot, tap water, peat moss in filter, and home made beef heart and very few water changes I could get a number of spawning pairs. I left the hobby 15 years ago but came back 5 months ago and a referral to Kenny. Knowing nothing else I set up the tank 2 days before the fish arrived then added the fish when they arrived. No chemicals, no testing, no cycling...just bare tank, tap water, 82 degrees, and fish. No peat moss but pretty much the old way.

From the forum I have found some wonderful foods, the black worms are the best. And because I read here that the water changes are good I have set up Sunday as water change day, 30%. The 5 fish are growing, have huge appetites, and are healthy. My question is, am I going to gain anything more by concerning myself with cycling, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and daily water changes? I have been thinking about this for several weeks. It slightly bothers me that I might be damaging my fish somehow. Great forum, great advice, I read threads daily. Thanks for all that you do for the discus hobbyists around the world.

[brewmaster15]

Al, because I am/was a discus breeder/hobbyist from way back I am wondering about all of the processes that I am now reading about on this most excellent forum. At the time I would drive 800 miles from my home to meet with Herman at Fairly Lake. Buy a dozen or so discus from him, put them in my trunk, and proceed to drive 14 or so hours to get back home. Using 20 gallon bare tanks with flower pot, tap water, peat moss in filter, and home made beef heart and very few water changes I could get a number of spawning pairs. I left the hobby 15 years ago but came back 5 months ago and a referral to Kenny. Knowing nothing else I set up the tank 2 days before the fish arrived then added the fish when they arrived. No chemicals, no testing, no cycling...just bare tank, tap water, 82 degrees, and fish. No peat moss but pretty much the old way.

From the forum I have found some wonderful foods, the black worms are the best. And because I read here that the water changes are good I have set up Sunday as water change day, 30%. The 5 fish are growing, have huge appetites, and are healthy. My question is, am I going to gain anything more by concerning myself with cycling, ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, and daily water changes? I have been thinking about this for several weeks. It slightly bothers me that I might be damaging my fish somehow. Great forum, great advice, I read threads daily. Thanks for all that you do for the discus hobbyists around the world.

Welcome back to the hobby ! Your question is a tough one. I know you can raise and keep discus without biological filtration, but to do so successfully you need to either do lots of water changes or have soft acidic water in which case you may be able to get by .. it really depends on your water and your goals in the hobby. Even if you have no biological filtration in the tank eventually you will have ammonia and nitrite consuming bacterial colonies form on the fish, the tank walls and tubing in even in the water column.

I can't comment much on what you used to do to raise discus If it worked for you, you may want to use that and see what happens. What I do know is for most people they will have the best chance of success with discus if they do learn about the nitrogen cycle and how it relates to husbandry and filtration.

Somewhere on Simply theres an experiment I did where I raised discus in soft acidic water no bio filter and documented the rise in ammonia and Nitrites and the relative little affect it had on the discus. It was interesting but it wasnt really reflective of what we have in our tanks water wise and fish number wise. It did illustrate the importance pH played.

al

[brewmaster15]

You know I like to mention where this forum excels and leaves facebook in the dust. Its the ability to look back on past discussions. The experiment I mentioned I did awhile back is here....
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?55722-To-Biofilter-or-not-help-me-out-here

We had a really good discussion in that one.

Al

[peewee1]

You know I like to mention where this forum excels and leaves facebook in the dust. Its the ability to look back on past discussions. The experiment I mentioned I did awhile back is here....
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?55722-To-Biofilter-or-not-help-me-out-here

We had a really good discussion in that one.

Al

Thanks, Al, I knew that you would not let me down with regard to my question. Thanks for the link to biofilter. I suspect that a good part of my so far success is that Kenny sent to me some very healthy and durable fishes.