Newbie to Discus

[NP57]

Greetings,
I just recently retired and got the itch to get back into the aquarium hobby. I used to keep and breed African cichlids many years ago. I was planning to start a large reef aquarium when I came across a planted discus tank. The discus tank was so captivating that I returned my skimmer and started reading about discus.
My project involves a fish room with a 450 gal display tank c/w 125 gal sump and 2-20 gal spare tanks. I’m in the process of building the fish room now. It’s still in the early stages ie. Electrical plumbing and ventilation going in next month.
I’m new to discus and would appreciate some guidance on which thread to join for the size tank I’m planning. The ultimate goal is to have 15-20 discus with hundreds of tetras and plants.
Questions I have are as follows:
How to develop the tank ie, fish first, plants first or combo of both?
Clean up crew and other fish compatible with discus?
Substrate type, thickness required for planted tank
Should I go rooted plants or simply tied to rocks and wood ?
Real driftwood or fake?
Sump components and type of filter merdia?
Looking forward to learning about this wonderful fish .
Norb

[jeep]

Welcome to Simply Discus!! You do have quite a project ahead of you!

When you have a moment, I suggest you take a look at this video http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?122038-Are-you-new-to-discus-WATCH-THIS-VIDEO!

Also, take a look at the planted tank section. There's lots of info there... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?37-Planted-Show-Tanks-and-Biotopes

Brian

[discuspaul]

To be completely candid, your plan to begin with a 450 gallon tank is an aggressive approach for a novice to discus-keeping, and could readily prove to be significantly problematic and discouraging to say the least.

One of the key elements in succeeding at keeping discus healthy and thriving is to consistently provide them with plenty of fresh water changes in order to ensure they have the benefit of high water quality and conditions. Therefore it's important for you to research and determine a suitable program to achieve doing that in such a large tank, particularly if you plan to aqua-scape it and add numerous tank-mates.

This type of a plan even poses a challenge for experienced discus-keepers who would likely opt for starting off slow & easy, with nothing less than mature adult discus to lessen the risks of being incapable of maintaining ideal conditions for the fish to do well.

Not meaning to discourage you, but I would strongly suggest you spend some tome researching discus traits & behaviors by going through the stickies in the Discus Basics for Beginners section, as well as spending several weeks following the threads & posts on this forum to give yourself a good understanding of what it takes to succeed well at discus-keeping.

Once you've done that, I believe you will want to adopt a safe learning approach by starting out with a much smaller set-up, stocked with good quality discus, preferably in a bare-bottom environment, in order to gain some experience in suitably keeping these beautiful fish healthy.

Enough said, I'd expect others would plan to step in with some other thoughts to help you move into discus with a good approach for your start-up.

All the best to you.

[NP57]

Thank you Brian for pointing me to additional info. The fish room won't be ready until this winter so I have plenty of time to research and ask questions.

[NP57]

I fully appreciate your cautious approach and I may start off with my 125 sump as my initiation tank to discus while I build out my dream tank and fish room. In the interim I would appreciate all the advice this forum can provide. I'm an Engineer by trade and like all Eng I will research the topic thoroughly before investing time and $ into this hobby.
I come from the old school of fish keeping which preached the more water volume the better more stable the parameters. Other than water changes can you please elaborate on what issues you anticipate I would encounter with the 450gal vs 100 gal? Better yet can you point me to other threads that discuss the issue of going too big too soon.
Thank you very much for your advice.
Cheers

[discuspaul]

Generally speaking, you're correct in that the more water volume, the more stable the parameters. On the other side of the coin however, larger volumes can deliver a number of negative factors when it comes to the more sensitive and intolerant discus are than almost all other types of tropical freshwater fish, in terms of dealing with poorer water quality.

Discus do best in pristine, squeaky clean tank conditions, and the larger the tank, the more difficult it becomes to consistently maintain the high level of tank cleanliness needed by discus.

Given the very large expanse of substrate associated with even a moderately planted tank of 450 gallons, the more opportunity there is for the development of harmful if not toxic patches of undesirable bacteria and debris within that substrate.

And feeding a group of even 20 mature discus in such a large tank would likely result in greater amounts of uneaten food dispersal throughout the tank, thereby exacerbating the difficulty of doing a proper clean-up following daily feedings.

The time and effort needed to properly remove uneaten food in a 450 gallon tank after each feeding would be very high.

The moderate to heavy plantings in such a tank would further complicate the clean-up issues, and perhaps even cause the hobbyist's efforts to be much more focused on the aqua-scaping rather than on the well-being of the discus - a no-no with discus-keepers.

And having a large number of other fish types as tank-mates simply and significantly increases the odds of cross-contamination more readily taking place at one time or another.

When one or more discus get overstressed, ill-health often sets in, and if medication is needed, that can also become difficult and ineffective in such large volumes without being fatal to many tank-mates in the process.

Discus are also very social fish and tend to be comfortable within close-knit larger groups kept within a suitably-sized tank environment, and a 450 gallon tank may not lend itself well to a group of 20 fish in that regard.


I'm not personally aware of any specific thread in the forum that is dedicated to the issue of going too big too soon. Your ongoing homework may reveal something in that regard, or one of the moderators may be able to point something out to you as time goes on.

[eugenefish]

To be completely candid, your plan to begin with a 450 gallon tank is an aggressive approach for a novice to discus-keeping, and could readily prove to be significantly problematic and discouraging to say the least.

One of the key elements in succeeding at keeping discus healthy and thriving is to consistently provide them with plenty of fresh water changes in order to ensure they have the benefit of high water quality and conditions. Therefore it's important for you to research and determine a suitable program to achieve doing that in such a large tank, particularly if you plan to aqua-scape it and add numerous tank-mates.

This type of a plan even poses a challenge for experienced discus-keepers who would likely opt for starting off slow & easy, with nothing less than mature adult discus to lessen the risks of being incapable of maintaining ideal conditions for the fish to do well.

Not meaning to discourage you, but I would strongly suggest you spend some tome researching discus traits & behaviors by going through the stickies in the Discus Basics for Beginners section, as well as spending several weeks following the threads & posts on this forum to give yourself a good understanding of what it takes to succeed well at discus-keeping.

Once you've done that, I believe you will want to adopt a safe learning approach by starting out with a much smaller set-up, stocked with good quality discus, preferably in a bare-bottom environment, in order to gain some experience in suitably keeping these beautiful fish healthy.

Enough said, I'd expect others would plan to step in with some other thoughts to help you move into discus with a good approach for your start-up.

All the best to you.

;) Excellent advice. Plan for some kinds of automatic water changes that can move large amount of water in and out of tank quickly will make life so much easy and enjoyable when it come down to keep discus health

[NP57]

Paul your words ooze with wisdom. Thanks again for bringing the tank size issue to my attention. I would not of guessed that one can go too big with a Discus tank. I will have to re-evaluate my plan of a 450 and maybe scale it down a bit to 300 ?
The fish room layout is such that Im committed to a 96" front window. If I keep with the 30" height that I planned I could go 24" deep rather than 36" originally planned. This would result in a 300 gal tank. Not sure if this is still too big?

[NP57]

Eugene, yes indeed the advice above was an eye-opener.
To answer your question; yes i plan on having a constant auto drip system so I can dedicate my maintenance time to vacuuming and tending to the sump.

[discuspaul]

Paul your words ooze with wisdom. Thanks again for bringing the tank size issue to my attention. I would not of guessed that one can go too big with a Discus tank. I will have to re-evaluate my plan of a 450 and maybe scale it down a bit to 300 ?
The fish room layout is such that Im committed to a 96" front window. If I keep with the 30" height that I planned I could go 24" deep rather than 36" originally planned. This would result in a 300 gal tank. Not sure if this is still too big?

A 300 gallon tank is never too big - for a discus-keeper who has some experience with keeping them- for an inexperienced discus-keeping novice though - I believe it would still be a challenge that flies in the face of the validity and safety of "keeping things as simple as possible" when starting out with discus.

I don't think it would be at all upsetting to your eventual plans to cut your teeth on say, a start-up modest 75 - 100 gallon tank employing a thin layer of pool filter sand, with nothing more than a couple of pieces of driftwood having a few 3 plants attached - and the tank populated with 6-8 or so medium-sized near adult discus (4" or more in size) obtained from a known source for supplying healthy, quality discus - and tending to that for a few months to get comfortable & familiar with discus-keeping, before proceeding to the large scale community display tank you're set on.
Please consider that.

[Filip]

Some sound advice already given Norb.
I would like to address your other dillemas in your post.

1.Best starting plan IMO would be a Barebottom start with discus only - full grown would be the safest choice for a begginer and for planted community setup . You add the rest of the fish few months later , after your discus are well aclimated and you ve gained some experience with them, following strict QT procedure prior mixing any new additions .Sand , decor and plants can be added later too.

2.Coridoras sterbai , Cardinal Tetra , Red rummy nose Tetra are the usuall tankmates for discus .

3.Substrate - Thin sand bottom one inch max. is most appropriate with discus because it does not trap too much dirt in it and it's failrly easy to keep it clean . You can make a couple of small zones for plants in the background with deeper sand layer in case you want to plant rooted plants .

4. You can go both rooted echinodorus and hygrophilias plants in the back and Anubias and Microsorums attached on driftwood in the middle .Real driftwood would be my choice .

5. Sump. My choice would be to invest in lots of quallity bio media (ceramic rings , sintered glass ) and cover the 90% of the sump with it , and fill only 10% - the first layer with mechanical media (thick sponge and filter floss ) which would be easy accessible for frequent cleaning .
Clean or replace mechanics bi-weekly and do not touch the biomedia at all .

Hope that helps Norb .Keep on reading and asking questions here and im sure you'll be set and ready for discus when the time comes .

[NP57]

I will take your advice and start the discuss as you described, in the 125gal that I will eventually become the sump to the large display tank. What's your thought about populating the large tank with tetras and some plants ? Assuming all goes well with the 125 gal discus tank, what's your estimate on how long before I transfer all discuss to the big tank ?
Again your advice is much appreciated
Norb

[NP57]

Filip thank you so much.
I never thought about starting with a bare bottom tank. I assumed adding sand later would stress the discus and other fish. I plan to keep plants simple non-rooted so I can keep the substrate shallow. I've heard of sumps using miracle mudd to provide trace elements and provide a thriving environment for tha refugium. Any thoughts? With the 125 gal as sump I should have plenty of room for ceramic rings and sintered glass.

[discuspaul]

I will take your advice and start the discuss as you described, in the 125gal that I will eventually become the sump to the large display tank. What's your thought about populating the large tank with tetras and some plants ? Assuming all goes well with the 125 gal discus tank, what's your estimate on how long before I transfer all discuss to the big tank ?
Again your advice is much appreciated
Norb

Assuming you're asking for my thoughts here, Norb, I'd suggest that if you start with juvenile/near adult discus in the 125 (say 4" fish) as I've described above, they will have grown to adult size in just a few months (within 3-4 months or so, which gives you reasonable time to become comfortable keeping them), at which point they'd be ready to be moved over to a 300 gal. planted tank environment, with a suitable automatic water changing system already in place.

While your discus are growing out in the 125, you could set up your moderately aqua-scaped 300 gallon with sand, plants & driftwood etc., only - ensuring that the tank gets fully cycled and ready for the discus using store some bought ammonia to supplement the plantings with development of sufficient levels of beneficial bacteria.

After adding whatever number of discus you've maintained in the 125 to this point, you could add more new discus for a total of perhaps 25-30, ensuring they are of similar size to the existing fish, obtained preferably from the same reliable source, and properly quarantined to ensure no contamination. (see the section on quarantining in my discus guide - the last Sticky in the Discus Basics for Beginners section.)

After a few weeks of acclimation to the large tank by the group of discus, only then should you begin adding groups of other selected discus-compatible fish species as tank-mates, quarantining each group separately for a brief period to ensure they're healthy, then proceeding to the single discus 'sacrificial lamb' portion of the quarantine on each occasion you do so.

Experience has taught us that it`s best, not to mention the safest and easiest approach, to always introduce discus first to any new tank environment to allow them to become comfortable and stress-free, before adding any tank-mates following suitable quarantine.
Trust you`re following this all ok - if any questions - shoot.

[NP57]

Thanks. I have learned so much in one day.
So starting with 100 neon tetras first along with some clean up crew fish would stress out the discus that followed a few months later? Very sensitive fish these Discus are ;).
I have spare tanks to be used as QT/Hospital tanks. I'm a firm believer in QT and will read your thread on how to QT Discus.

Questions:

Is it best to implement a constant water changing device or do bulk changes as required? I always felt a constant small change reduces stress by keeping parameters more even keeled.

Are sump refugiums used with Discus or other Cichlids ?

[NP57]

Paul,
Not sure I understand the following" then proceeding to the single discus 'sacrificial lamb' portion of the quarantine on each occasion you do so." I haven't read your QT thread so I assume it will become evident.

Compared to african cichlids how does the discus appetite differ?

[Filip]

They can be pretty sensitive and prone to diseases when you mix sources and introduce new stock. Other than that they are considered pretty hardy and long lasting .
They originate from water with very low PH where bacteria or other pathogens are barely present and their immune system is not eqquiped to tolerate high diversity and bacterial count present in water with higher PH . That's why most of the discus keepers tend to keep their water and environment as clean and sterile as possible and insist on Barebottom tanks with less decor and plants and large an frequent waterchanges .
Having this in mind Bulk WCs with fresh water IMO would be considered better than daily drip and mud or soil would be considered counter productive to the discus needs for fresh and sterile conditions .

[discuspaul]

Thanks. I have learned so much in one day.
So starting with 100 neon tetras first along with some clean up crew fish would stress out the discus that followed a few months later? Very sensitive fish these Discus are ;).
I have spare tanks to be used as QT/Hospital tanks. I'm a firm believer in QT and will read your thread on how to QT Discus.

Questions:

Is it best to implement a constant water changing device or do bulk changes as required? I always felt a constant small change reduces stress by keeping parameters more even keeled.

Are sump refugiums used with Discus or other Cichlids ?

It's not so much a question of Neons (which BTW are not very good discus tank-mates, not just because they are usually small enough to be attractive meals for discus, but also due to their generally not doing very well at the higher discus temps - Cardinal Tetras are far better discus tank-mates in this regard), and other species (e.g. clean-up fish) stressing out the discus by being the first inhabitants in a new aquarium set-up, but mainly because the quarantining requirements are not simple in that case and not readily conducive to keeping as many discus as stress-free as possible.
I believe that will become apparent to you when you think about the cross-contamination probabilities and potential consequences of this process.
As for your question about the constant water drip method over large single w/c's, I think Filip has answered you very well earlier, and about other matters too.
And yes, sump refugiums are often used by discus-keepers to advantage.

[NP57]

Filip, interesting point about low ph being less conducive to pathogens. That being said wouldn’t keeping a low ph say 5.5 or 6 be best for discus and eliminate all concerns mentioned?
Water changes in bulk. Check ! Thanks I will have to figure out a way to change large volumes without hauling buckets.
Thanks again

[NP57]

Understood about cardinal tetras. What type of drift wood is best for discus environment

What water flow do discuss prefer? Does surface agitation upset them? I was planning on 5x tank volume flow through sump. I used to place powerheads low to keep detritus suspended in water column to assist removal from tank by overflows.

[discuspaul]

Understood about cardinal tetras. What type of drift wood is best for discus environment

What water flow do discuss prefer? Does surface agitation upset them? I was planning on 5x tank volume flow through sump. I used to place powerheads low to keep detritus suspended in water column to assist removal from tank by overflows.

Any natural driftwood is acceptable in a discus tank.

Discus are not comfortable in any strong water flow - best to maintain a lesser, more moderate flow so that these 'flat' fish can maintain an idling position without strain or obvious effort. Surface agitation doesn't seem to be much of a problem though.

BTW, I'm sure you realize you're getting about 6 months' worth of discus research homework condensed into a single days' questions & answers - LOL

P.S. - Anyway, we're all glad to do it, because you're asking the right questions !

[Paul Sabucchi]

Belated welcome to Simply Discus, I apologize for my delay but Paul and Filip have covered all the fundamentals. A bit like you I caught the discus bug after I got the African cichlids one (still got two 100 gal mbuna tanks), I also have five low-tech planted tanks of various sizes. This has given me a fair prospective about how useful the discus-specific advice given on this forum has proven compared to what may apply to most other types of freshwater fishtanks. Over the last year and 1/2 I have been growing out in a 100 gal bare bottom tank a dozen discus, purchased when they were 3 months old/2", they now are about 6-7" (in the photo here they are enjoying a bit of sunshine, if you look me up on youtube you can see the progression). As you are quite rightly doing, I did my research first, mostly on this forum, and summarised as follows:
1) get the best quality discus you can find/afford
2) don't mix discus of different provenance and be also cautious mixing with other species of fish
3) give your discus good quality water, particularly if they are still growing, by means of a clean tank and big water changes
4) give your discus good quality food, plenty and often - again particularly if they are still growing.


If I were in your shoes I would:
1) check the quality of your tapwater (pH before and after ageing, hardness and nitrates) to ensure no major issues there.
2) get a 100/125gal tank, keep it bare bottom, just add a heater and a simple filter: air sponge, HOB or canister (this one preferably with an easy to clean prefilter). Do a fishless cycle with ammonia
3) kit yourself with whatever will make big daily water changes less of a chore (leave the continuous drip water changes for the future big tank), so a big barrell for ageing, pumps, hoses, pythons, syphons
4) Once ready get 30-40 juvies to grow out, the sponsors on this forum all have excellent feedback, are there any within your range? Most of them ship anyway.
While you are having fun growing out your baby discus you can plan and build the big display tank. I think that going bigger than 24" tall and 24" deep makes it awkward to reach the back corner so I would go longer rather than taller and wider. I would set it's sump up at the same time and not wait to recicle the 100/125gal. You can then scape, plant and cycle it.
5) Once the discus have grown to close to full size move them to the big tank and use the 100-125 gal to quarantine the possible additions (chose amongst cardinals, rummy nose, lemon tetra, possibly pencil fish and for bottom dwellers some heat loving corydoras or Brochis splendens. If they are all ok after 6 weeks take one discus from the big tank (" hero fish ") and put it in the 125 and see what happens over a few weeks. If no issues you can gradually add the new fish to the big tank.
If you are keen on DIY you could check out what this pal of mine has done, this is his latest (finished 8 months ago) and biggest (1200 gal) glass front/plywood/pondarmor tank and sump self build
https://youtu.be/aWNh1_DrTgw
If you scroll back on his youtube channel you can see how he did it bit by bit.

[NP57]

LOL! Yes this is a crash course. Lucky for me there is so much information on the this forum. I have started reading some of the beginner threads and intend on rading your pamphlet. thanks again for all you do to help out newbies. When I was keeping Fontosas I did not ahve the luxury of so much informatoin at my finger tips. Also Fontosas are relatively easy to kepp comapred to Discus which helped.
There are too many Pauls offering assitance so I will respond to you as DPaul going forward. Thanks again.
Ps. as a fellow Canadian where do you source your Discus? Will US suppliers ship to Canada?
Cheers.

[NP57]

this is duplicate please remove. thx

[NP57]

Thank you. Very informative. FYI I also will be building a plywood tank. I'm 6'2 so 30" is not an issue for me. I like the taller display 30" provides.
I concur and understand everything you noted except the introduction of a hero discus to the companion aquarium. What are you looking for and what can go wrong ?
As I was originally setting up for a reef tank I was planning on 2 50gal barrels to hold and mix water. This can easily be used to age water as you mentioned is required.
So as to not confuse you with discuspaul I will respond to you as PaulS. Thanks again for your input. I'm starting to read as much of this forum as possible and will certainly have more questions. I'm taking things slow and learning as much a s I can before investing time and lots of money in this hobby. I really appreciate all the help and support.

[discuspaul]

LOL! Yes this is a crash course. Lucky for me there is so much information on the this forum. I have started reading some of the beginner threads and intend on rading your pamphlet. thanks again for all you do to help out newbies. When I was keeping Fontosas I did not ahve the luxury of so much informatoin at my finger tips. Also Fontosas are relatively easy to kepp comapred to Discus which helped.
There are too many Pauls offering assitance so I will respond to you as DPaul going forward. Thanks again.
Ps. as a fellow Canadian where do you source your Discus? Will US suppliers ship to Canada?
Cheers.

Where are you located in Canada ?

U.S. discus suppliers will not ship to Canada.

I obtain all my discus from Rick Grange of Canadian Aqua Farm located in suburban B.C. (near Vancouver)

CAF/Rick is a reliable long-time experienced importer of high quality discus from Forrest Discus of Malaysia - who ships across Canada @ reasonable shipping costs, and guarantees live delivery. You can't go wrong with Rick - who is a long-time sponsor on this forum - see his threads in the "Sponsors" section for contact info, gallery & discus prices.

[Paul Sabucchi]

As Filip was saying, discus seem to be more susceptible to falling ill to opportunistic pathogens that can be harboured with little or no apparent harm to the fish of other species that carry them but that can rampage out of control once contracted by discus. Why this often happens is still a matter of debate but, as with so many aspects of discus-keeping, the practical observations of the people who have kept these fish over the last 60 years are the most reliable thing we have to go by. I also think that current ornamental-fish trade practices have complicated the issue, with the import let's say in North America of fish originally from South America but now intensively farmed in Asia. Once your other fish are quarantined you will be reasonably sure they are not carrying any pathogens that can harm them but you want to be reasonably sure they are not carrying anything dangerous to your discus, you put just one of your discus in with the new fish as a "canary" to warn you if there is going to be an issue before you introduce a potential problem to your other dozens of valuable duscus

[Cove Beach]

Hello, and welcome to Simply. I had a similar start to yours. I was a long time fish keeper and the last 15 yrs reef. Like you I come from practice of big water-stable water. My starting discus tank is a 245gal with a 180 sump. Starting out big is great as long as you are preparing for the maintenance involved with these wonderful fish. A lot depends on what you want the end result to be also. You have to decide if you want to start from juvies or go with sub adults or adults. This will dictate bare bottom or not. Since you are thinking of going plywood with some depth, making it so you have front,back and at least one end accessible to make working on the tank as simple as possible. Water changes are key with any size discus, and being able to do the largest in the simplest manner is best. I prefer turning valves and flipping switches to lifting buckets and dragging hoses. Something else to consider is put the support equipment in place for the future big tank but run it on what you start with. No such thing as over filtering. If you go to the tank journal section you can see what others have done and pick what fits your situation and budget. Mine is titled Sweetwater Reef for example. The best thing here is that folks are always willing to answer your questions.

[eugenefish]

Where are you located in Canada ?

U.S. discus suppliers will not ship to Canada.

I obtain all my discus from Rick Grange of Canadian Aqua Farm located in suburban B.C. (near Vancouver)

CAF/Rick is a reliable long-time experienced importer of high quality discus from Forrest Discus of Malaysia - who ships across Canada @ reasonable shipping costs, and guarantees live delivery. You can't go wrong with Rick - who is a long-time sponsor on this forum - see his threads in the "Sponsors" section for contact info, gallery & discus prices.

2 thumbs up for Canadian Aqua Farm.

If you search the thread "Eugene' Contest Treat - 65 gal grow out Journey" This is the quality of discus he carried. I am very happy of the outcome of my discus (both health and color)

[discuspaul]

To NP 57:
You'll recall I mentioned the term 'sacrificial lamb' when speaking of the 'second leg' of a quarantine which involves adding a single discus from your main tank to a quarantine tank containing any number of other fish species intended to be discus tank-mates.
Paul S. referred to this discus as a 'hero fish' - same thing as - 'sacrificial lamb'.

This 'second leg' of the QT involves placing your least desirable discus into the tank-mates quarantine tank and leaving it there with the tank-mates for a period of at least 6 weeks or more, up to 8 weeks, which should be sufficient time to determine whether or not the tank-mates have passed on any harmful pathogen which they carry but are themselves resistant to - on to the hero discus which is not immune & becomes adversely affected.

This follows the first leg of a normal quarantine, which is an approximate 3 week period of QT following purchase of these intended tank-mates, this being simply a reasonable period in which to satisfy yourself that the tank-mates are indeed healthy & thriving before adding the single discus.

Should the discus display no ill effects from the QT - then all the fish in QT may be placed in the main tank with the other discus.
If the discus in QT develops ill-health & needs medicational treatment to resolve the issue, then obviously these tank-mates are not to be added to the main tank, and others from another source need to be considered.
Hope this explains satisfactorily.

[NP57]

DPaul - I live in Windsor Ontario. I wil lahve to check out Canadian Aqua Farm. Thanks. Is there any other supplier on Ontario that you would consider reputable ? I understand the sacrificial lamb method of QT now. Dumb question: Since Discus are social fish and like to be in groups of 5-6 to remain happy and healthy wouldn't moving a single fish from a large display tank to a small QT tank by their lonesome for 6 weeks induce stress and cause illness giving you a false indicator that something is wrong with the QT fish ?

PaulS - Thank you for your explanation of the "canary" That poor hero really takes one for the team.

Cove - Thanks for joining the thread. It seems we are similar in the "go big or go home" philosophy ;) The tank I'm building will be behind a wall hence I will access on all sides. From what I've learned so far I'm leaning towards sub adult discus to avoid the ultra sensitive nature of Juvis. I will definitely check out your Sweetwater Reef.

Eugene - Thanks for pointing me to the "65 gal grow out Journey"

I have to say that I'm overwhelmed by the support on this Forum. I've never experienced this on any other aquarium related forum. Thanks again everyone. I have a lot of reading and research to do after which I'm sure I will have many ( dumb) questions

[discuspaul]

Over the past 10 years or so there have been a number of discus breeder/importer suppliers in the GTA/Toronto/southern Ontario area, but none have seemingly achieved any consistent degree of success and all that I was aware of have apparently disappeared for lack of viability.
There is one source north of Toronto that has been around a long time, with an excellent reputation, that I believe is still in business supplying quality discus - and that is Upper Canada Discus - Bob Garside - who I believe still imports his discus from the known to be a high quality breeder - Wayne Ng of Hong Kong. Bob's operating location is somewhere near Barrie, Ont. I believe.
Look up his website up for contact details, etc.

As for the hero discus situation - isolating a single fish temporarily for QT purposes is not generally issue-producing. While a single discus may be a 'lonely camper' for that temporary period, there is no distressing condition to cause a solo fish any health- altering stress (e.g. bullying through pecking order development) - so not usually any problem.
Many hobbyists have said they've kept a single discus in a community tank for years without a problem.

[NP57]

Thanks for the Ontario fish supplier. Will check it out.
I understand the solo discus QT process now. The grouping of Discus in Display tanks is similar to african cichlids, the more the peaceful .

[bluelagoon]

I had a "reflection deep" discus here from Bob Garside from Upper Canada Discus that grew to be 8". I also grew out some nice big discus from Canadian Aqua Farm in BC.

[danotaylor]

Welcome to simplydiscus mate! One of our SD sponsors, Dennis discus fish, operates out of Bowling Green Ohio. So you have the option of driving one and a half hours from Windsor to hand select fish from Dennis. I purchased 8 adult discus from Dennis in July last year. The quality shape and color is amazing and they've been happy and healthy. Dennis is a great option to get you set up on your way since he's so close. He will send videos and separate out fish that you would like to buy. When you arrive to collect them if you want to change your mind he is more than happy to do that as well. I had a great buying experience with Dennis.

All the best to you sir! Keep us posted on your progress :-)

[bluelagoon]

It sure does benefit from seeing them in person.

[NP57]

Thank you Daniel and Marvin for the source tips.
Daniel; I take it one can bring tropical fish across the border into Canada?

[discuspaul]

Thank you Daniel and Marvin for the source tips.
Daniel; I take it one can bring tropical fish across the border into Canada?

That depends a good deal on where it's coming from in the U.S., and which Canadian border point is the crossing area for bringing the discus in.

I've heard of a number of very different results in differing areas which seem to be significantly dependent on the Canadian border authorities' interpretation of the rules, and the type of fish involved. They may let them in, & they may not - you take your chances.

Check it out very carefully before you proceed, and ask for an advance ruling on discus importation from the U.S. specifically at the border point you'll be using.
I may be off base here, but that's my best advice. I prefer to order from Canada if I'm located in Canada - that's a foolproof approach. No unknowns.

[NP57]

Sound advice. Thanks Paul

[danotaylor]

Yea I agree with Paul. Call ahead to find out. It shouldn't be a problem because discus can be imported into Canada, but best to have direction from the border peeps at the Detroit Windsor crossing...

[danotaylor]

I just read on Dennis's website that he ships to Canada. He offers free shipping on orders over $399 (before tax). With the hassle of border crossing, time and gas, that is probably a safer & more efficient way to go...

[NP57]

Daniel, thank you for the info. I will have to call Dennis and get details on border crossing. Sounds like a viable alternative.

[NP57]

Guys,
What level of nitrates do Discus tolerate?

[discuspaul]

Not more than 10 ppm on any consistent basis. 20 ppm or more regularly is a harmful no-no for discus.
One of the reasons for the large, frequent wc's -I've always kept nitrates under 5 ppm consistently.

[NP57]

Paul
A followup question; If nitrates are consistently kept at 5 ppm by use of filtration could one reduce wcs from every 2-3 days to once a week ? Given the amount of detritus produced by sub-adult discus is 5ppm realistic with over filtration and 1 wc weekly ?

[discuspaul]

Paul
A followup question; If nitrates are consistently kept at 5 ppm by use of filtration could one reduce wcs from every 2-3 days to once a week ? Given the amount of detritus produced by sub-adult discus is 5ppm realistic with over filtration and 1 wc weekly ?

Not sure I understand what your point is.
Nitrates are consistently kept below 5 ppm through frequent, large quantity fresh wcs. Filtration, or 'over filtration' - whatever that is, is not really a factor as it will not effectively replace the need to constantly & consistently introduce large amounts of fresh water (containing no nitrates) which serves to give discus the essential environment to remain healthy & thriving, while also removing any nitrate build-up between wc's. Once weekly wc will not cut it with discus except possibly in situations where a tank is well under-stocked with adult discus while tank cleanliness ( i.e. wipe-downs & substrate vacuuming) is also religiously maintained on a frequent basis.
This latter factor is essentially what limits the detritus produced (I assume you mean fish wastes) while the ammonia produced by the fish is neutralized by the bb.
Am I missing something here ?

[NP57]

In the past I was able to keep nitrates in the 10ppm range with oversized sumps and large refugium. Water changes were required every 3 or 4th week when nitrates started to creep above desired levels. Now admittedly I have always understocked my tanks since I don’t like crowded tank. I realize that discus will require more frequent water changes, however if one can keep nitrates low ie 5ppm can water change frequency be reduced or are there other factors ( other than nitrates )that govern water changes ie trace elements. Also, I was planning on using a UV filter to mitigate pathogens, is this commonly used with discus ?
My apologies if I’m not making myself clear. What I’m trying to understand is the trigger that forces a WC. When you refer to discus needing fresh water 2 to 3 times a week I’m not understanding the ‘why’ that is required. I’ve read several threads and have yet to find a scientific explanation as to why changes are required so frequently other than past experience dictates that if you don’t your fish will die.

[fljones3]

It’s not just nitrates that are taken care of in WC. Dissolved organics and other nasties need to be removed also.

[discuspaul]

Yes, there are other factors of benefit to discus through water changes that I'm sure you're aware of - the removal of undesirable/ potentially harmful build-up of dissolved matter through siphoning existing water, and the replenishment of spent trace elements through fresh water.
Many discus-keepers do operate sumps but it's unusual for them to forgo, lessen, or neglect water changes even if nitrates are well-controlled with this approach.

I regularly used a UV filter on a 24/7 basis, but didn't necessarily count on it simply for effectiveness in doing away with pathogens through carefully controlling the flow, I found them more helpful for e.g., assisting with maintaining high water clarity, maintaining the water surface clear of any protein film, regulating the fresh, even flow of cleansed water throughout the tank, and removing/destroying any free-flowing algae from the water column.

[Filip]

Paul
A followup question; If nitrates are consistently kept at 5 ppm by use of filtration could one reduce wcs from every 2-3 days to once a week ? Given the amount of detritus produced by sub-adult discus is 5ppm realistic with over filtration and 1 wc weekly ?

There is no scientific explanation about this , but I personally believe that the bacterial count - presence of harmfull heterotrophic bacteria and pathogens in the water plays an important role in our Waterchangin routines . Nitrate level to my understanding , is only used as an indirect indicator about how far have this above mentioned processes have gone and not as a direct obstacle to discus health.
There were some experiments I've read as far I recall where discus were subjected and tolerated the nitrate levels up to 1000 ppm if the nitrates came from pure chemical form instead as a result of DOC breakdown .
You can IMO easily maintain a full blown high tech planted tank where the huge plant mass would eat up so much nutrients that your nitrates will never go above 5 Ppm without a single WC , and yet , discus will surely get sick and die in this environment .
SO I guess its pretty obvious that nitrates alone are not the reason for WCs with discus .
I relate this with what I've mentioned in my previous post that discus originate from low PH and pathogen free water and their immune system is not equipped to fight the amount and diversity of pathogens in our tanks .

BTW. As an answer to your previous qt on PH and WCs relation , yes I believe that you will get away with less WC in a 4-5 PH water , but getting there and maintaining it safely in that level is harder and more dangerous than just doing a couple of large tap and aged water WCs per week .

[NP57]

Thank you Frank. What I’m trying to figure out are what makes up the other ‘nasties’.

[Filip]

Thank you Frank. What I’m trying to figure out are what makes up the other ‘nasties’.

I think of it this way .
What makes a water drinkable /safe for human consumption ?
Would you drink water just because it has i.e. 0 nitratres ?

[NP57]

Paul, the dissolved organics can be absorbed by large nutrient export systems like refugiums. Replacing trace elements however not a simple task which would make the wc a no brainer since it also assists in removing DOC.
Thanks I’m starting to understand this finicky fish.

[NP57]

Filip thank you for the explanation. I tend to agree that it must be something like pathogens that affect the discus. DOCs and nitrates can be controlled with large nutrient export systems. UV and ozone are used to sterilize drinking water however I understand these systems are not very effective when applied to aquariums which leave one with no choice other than doing WCs.

[NP57]

Actually the water we drink here has nitrates at .467ppm but zero bacteria and pathogens ;)

[NP57]

The WC required for discus as Noted in this forum is troublesome for me. It would not be an issue when we are home however during our several vacation trips a year would put the fish at risk. I may have to reconsider keeping theses beautiful animals.

[discuspaul]

The WC required for discus as Noted in this forum is troublesome for me. It would not be an issue when we are home however during our several vacation trips a year would put the fish at risk. I may have to reconsider keeping theses beautiful animals.

I know exactly what you're talking about - over the past 10 years or so, my wife and I have normally taken 2 or more vacation trips in or out of the country each year, usually to Mexico or the Caribbean, but also to Europe, for up to 2 weeks each time (usually 7-10 days), but have been fortunate to have a daughter with discus experience nearby who can come to the house 2-3 X a week if need to feed, change water, whatever needs doing & have never had a problem.

Besides that, I know a number of discus-keepers who do the same kind of yearly vacationing, but leave the discus totally unattended to for up to 2 weeks at a time - simply doing a large wc before leaving, leaving the fish unlit & unfed for the entire period, and returning home to no problem whatsoever.

So, if your discus are of good stock & healthy, no need to be concerned - carry on with your normal life & you'll be just fine.
They are in fact quite hardy, and can deal with abnormal circumstances without a hitch in most cases.

[Filip]

Leaving your grown discus 2-3 weeks unattended , couple of times a year is not a problem at all. Healthy and grown discus can easily go without food for up to two months and when you do not feed at all the water stays clean without doing WCs . Read "vacation" threads here, using search button and you'll get the picture how people handle their discus during time off . It's not a problem at all.

[NP57]

Paul/Filip,
What you describe only applies to fully grown discus. Can you leave sub-adults without food or WC for extended periods?
So many threads so little time ... I will have to read the vacation thread Filip noted. Thanks again. There may be hope after all. Thanks again.

[discuspaul]

Depends what size/age of fish you consider to be sub-adult.
To me, that's a discus in the 4" or somewhat larger size, which is a relatively mature fish with a fairly well-developed immune system - should be no problem.
Smaller fish, say 3" juvies, face/pose a greater risk when left unattended for 2 or more weeks, but some hobbyists report having no problem even at that size - particularly if they're kept in a bare-bottom tank.

[NP57]

Paul ,
My first attempt at discus will be with 4" or greater sized fish. While growing out they will be in a BB tank however my display tank will have a substrate and some plants. I've read a few 'vacation' related threads and it seems as you inidcated that adult fish have no problem going without food for 2-3 weeks. I can probably arrange for my daughter to feed the fish during our absence however would not trust she would be able to perform a water change. Would one be better off not feeding at all or provide once a week feeding and no water change ?

[NP57]

Do Discus keepers with or without planted tanks use carbon or GFO ? Have not come across this in any of the threads I've read so far. Still many more to read.

[discuspaul]

Paul ,
My first attempt at discus will be with 4" or greater sized fish. While growing out they will be in a BB tank however my display tank will have a substrate and some plants. I've read a few 'vacation' related threads and it seems as you inidcated that adult fish have no problem going without food for 2-3 weeks. I can probably arrange for my daughter to feed the fish during our absence however would not trust she would be able to perform a water change. Would one be better off not feeding at all or provide once a week feeding and no water change ?

Best not to feed at all. (No uneaten food left to clean up or rot).
And don't bother with anyone doing a wc if there's any doubt it may not be done properly.

[discuspaul]

Do Discus keepers with or without planted tanks use carbon or GFO ? Have not come across this in any of the threads I've read so far. Still many more to read.

I don't know of a single discus-keeper who uses carbon, at least not on any regular basis, except perhaps a newbie who doesn't know better. Discus-keepers may use it very occasionally to rid a tank of a bad odor or unwanted discoloration in the water column, or when needed to remove medication traces following prescribed usage.

Quite a number do use Seachem Purigen though, to adsorb undesirable dissolved matter, and consistently maintain crystal water clarity. I've used it myself 24/7 for years in my planted set-ups. Check it out.

[NP57]

Thanks Paul. Just wanted to confirm.

[NP57]

Paul is there a specific reason why Carbon is not used and Purigen is? GFO used at all to lower phosphates?

[discuspaul]

Primarily because Purigen does a much better job than carbon, IMO; is more effective and dependable for longer periods; and is a regenerable commodity while carbon is not.

I don't give rumored stuff much credence, but some believe that once carbon becomes adsorption super-saturated, it begins to rid what it has adsorbed back into the aquarium water - old wives' tale ? Don't know.

GFO to lower phosphates ? Perhaps used by some - never needed to lower phosphates myself.

[NP57]

Very interesting ! I have never heard of Purigen. I really like the fact that it can be regenerated and it does not remove trace elements. You learn something every day.
Thanks Paul.

[Jack L]

NP57
most of your questions can be found on this site, by searching topic reading existing threads. but you already have gotten a lot of good advice in this one.

my adds

1. plants are harder than fish if there are specific plants you are after
2. i've been happy with pondmaster pump
3. i've been happy with current usa lights
4. purigen does polish water nicely, but if you run your tank balanced you don't need any of that stuff
5. a refugium was a mess in sump, didn't seem to help with my water quality either. i tried with water lettuce

i think if you heavily plant that tank, do your WC, you could keep 20 and it wold be a fine. give it a couple years to setup, an don't let mulm build in the sump

[Jack L]

Paul
A followup question; If nitrates are consistently kept at 5 ppm by use of filtration could one reduce wcs from every 2-3 days to once a week ? Given the amount of detritus produced by sub-adult discus is 5ppm realistic with over filtration and 1 wc weekly ?


just measure your levels. the API kits are the best for the $
overfiltration doesn't help with reducing nitrates, just gets the muck to nitrate faster

the only thing i've ever found to reduce nitrates is chemical like prime, or WC. and WC would be the correct way

but you load that tank up with ditherfish, your bioload will catch-up to that size tank.

[NP57]

Thanks Jack. I am continueing to read and read.... I appreciate all the advice received so far.

[bluelagoon]

Here is a search on Prime.https://www.reddit.com/r/Aquariums/comments/7ngexz/seachem_prime_does_not_detoxify_nitritenitrate Seachem website also says it only holds it's band up to 48 hours to the ammonia in chloramine.So don't let it set in the aging barrel if you decide to age your water.Always put it in your tank prior to WC's.

[NP57]

Mervin my municipality uses chlorine to disinfect. Would the use of Prime change based on what you are recommending? Sorry If dumb question.

[bluelagoon]

My municipality uses just chlorine too. most times I use no conditioner just aged aerated water. Chlorine evaporates out in about a 24 hour period, so not need for conditioners. That was done years ago before the use of dechlor conditioners in a aquariums. If I need some water from the top I use the cheapest declhor you can buy, which is sodium thiosulfate; about 10$ a pound that lasts a long, long time(years) even with every day WC's.

[NP57]

My municipality uses just chlorine too. most times I use no conditioner just aged aerated water. Chlorine evaporates out in about a 24 hour period, so not need for conditioners. That was done years ago before the use of dechlor conditioners in a aquariums. If I need some water from the top I use the cheapest declhor you can buy, which is sodium thiosulfate; about 10$ a pound that lasts a long, long time(years) even with every day WC's.

Thanks for the tip about Na2S2O3.

[eugenefish]

I think of it this way .
What makes a water drinkable /safe for human consumption ?
Would you drink water just because it has i.e. 0 nitratres ?
:o

[Paul Sabucchi]

If you want to use sodium thiosulphate I desolve 60 grams of crystals in one liter of water, of this solution I add 2 drops for every gallon of tapwater

[NP57]

If you want to use sodium thiosulphate I desolve 60 grams of crystals in one liter of water, of this solution I add 2 drops for every gallon of tapwater

Paul would you go through this effort if you could age the water before doing the water change

[Filip]

Paul would you go through this effort if you could age the water before doing the water change

If you are sure it has only chlorine you can skip that .
If there are chloramines you must use dechlorinator .

[bluelagoon]

I do not premix sodium thoisulfate. I simply use one crystal per 5 - 10 gal of water. I've been using it for approximately 15-20 years this way.I did have a recipe for mixing but the chemist where I buy it told me not to premix it to save for later; something to do with it's bond to water. I don't know how factual that is but he was the chemist. The water company in your area will let folks know if they have chlorine or chloramine. I think it's the law, here anyways.

[NP57]

If you are sure it has only chlorine you can skip that .
If there are chloramines you must use dechlorinator .

Confirmed thx

[NP57]

I do not premix sodium thoisulfate. I simply use one crystal per 5 - 10 gal of water. I've been using it for approximately 15-20 years this way.I did have a recipe for mixing but the chemist where I buy it told me not to premix it to save for later; something to do with it's bond to water. I don't know how factual that is but he was the chemist. The water company in your area will let folks know if they have chlorine or chloramine. I think it's the law, here anyways.

I will have enough storage volume so I will simply let water age 48hrs min before using. I'm currently working on the logistics of an semi-automated water change system. I just want to flip a switch ;)

[Filip]

I will have enough storage volume so I will simply let water age 48hrs min before using. I'm currently working on the logistics of an semi-automated water change system. I just want to flip a switch ;)

That's the right way to last more than a couple of months with discus :)

[discuspaul]

That's the right way to last more than a couple of months with discus :)

Agree - that's a very simple, honest and straightforward way of saying it, Filip - and it's a fact.

[NP57]

That's the right way to last more than a couple of months with discus :)

For substrate vacuuming I'm looking at something similar to Mark's :sand hog" found here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?134332-DIY-Powered-Gravel-Vac-%93-Sand-Hog%94&p=1316894&highlight=#post1316894
I like the idea of keeping vac and wc separate.

[Filip]

For substrate vacuuming I'm looking at something similar to Mark's :sand hog" found here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?134332-DIY-Powered-Gravel-Vac-%93-Sand-Hog%94&p=1316894&highlight=#post1316894
I like the idea of keeping vac and wc separate.

Lot of people also use Eheim Quick Vaccum pro :

https://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Gravel-Cleaner-Sludge-Extractor/dp/B003C5U2SU

[NP57]

Lot of people also use Eheim Quick Vaccum pro :

https://www.amazon.com/Automatic-Gravel-Cleaner-Sludge-Extractor/dp/B003C5U2SU

Thanks. Will have to check it out. Looks very convenient to use.