Help-Losing discus

[nikm128]

Hi everyone, new to this forum, but not the hobby or fish forums. For the sake of ease, I'm going to copy my post from another site to give you all the info
(originally posted February 23rd) I will add how everything is going now down below.
Tank

What is the water volume of the tank? 75g
How long has the tank been running? Almost 2 years
Does it have a filter? Yes
Does it have a heater? Yes
What is the water temperature? 85-86
What is the entire stocking of this tank? (Please list all fish and inverts.)
5 disus, 10 cardinal tetras
Maintenance
How often do you change the water? Every 2-3 days
How much of the water do you change? 50%
What do you use to treat your water? Seachem Prime
Do you vacuum the substrate or just the water? I do both

*Parameters - Very Important
Did you cycle your tank before adding fish? Yes
What do you use to test the water? API master test kit
What are your parameters? We need to know the exact numbers, not just “fine” or “safe”.

Ammonia:0
Nitrite:0
Nitrate: 10-15
pH: 6.8

Feeding
How often do you feed your fish? 2-3 times a day
How much do you feed your fish? What they will eat in ~5 minutes
What brand of food do you feed your fish? Bug Bites, some API, brine shrimp
Do you feed frozen or freeze-dried foods? Yes

Illness & Symptoms
How long have you had this fish? Just shy of a year
How long ago did you first notice these symptoms? Maybe 3-4 days ago, but I wasn't sure anything was wrong
In a few words, can you explain the symptoms? Turning black/getting very dark (it's a discus thing) clamped fins, lethargy, nipped or rotted tail fin, whit spots (look too large for ich)
Have you started any treatment for the illness? No
Was your fish physically ill or injured upon purchase? No
How has its behavior and appearance changed, if at all?
Lethargy, turning black
Explain your emergency situation in detail. (Please give a clear explanation of what is going on, include details from the beginning of the illness leading up to now)
So about Tuesday I guess, I thought they looked darker, but upon closer examination nothing seemed wrong. Today, things are very wrong.
I'm aware though that it's 100% my fault because I rushed quarantine on a new discus because it was not doing well being alone, when I added it to the tank it immediately improved and began to eat normally. Apparently that got at least two of my others sick (turqs) but at least they're all eating still.

So after that I was told to get something to de-worm them. I used levimasole at 1/4 cup per 100 gallons. So roughly 0.1875 cups. After that I had the lights off for 2 weeks, vacuuming the bottom every day as well as a 60% water change every day as a 10 day follow up treatment with metronidazole.

After that all seemed well, everyone was acting normal and looked good. That is, until yesterday I came home to find a turq dead with a giant bulge on her side when just 2 hours before she was eating acting normal, not darkening at all. Then today, my pigeon blood was on its side less than 30 minutes after feeding, again with no indication of anything being wrong. I went to get my net, but as soon as I touched the fish it went ballistic and half swam half spased to the other side of the tank. I don't suppose I can do anything for it at this point? It would kill me to lose one a day if it keeps up at this rate

Hopefully that's enough detail, will hapilly answer more clerification questions

[jeep]

So after that I was told to get something to de-worm them. I used levimasole at 1/4 cup per 100 gallons. So roughly 0.1875 cups. After that I had the lights off for 2 weeks, vacuuming the bottom every day as well as a 60% water change every day as a 10 day follow up treatment with metronidazole.


Is this correct? 1/4 cup of levamisole for 100g? The correct dosage is 1/4 tsp per 100g.

Can you post a photo?

[fljones3]

I cannot remember where but I have read of some reviewers who fed bug bites and had issues with their discus. If I remember they thought it had to do with something in the food that was not readily digestible. FWIW.

[nikm128]

Is this correct? 1/4 cup of levamisole for 100g? The correct dosage is 1/4 tsp per 100g.

Can you post a photo?

Right, 1/4 tsp, I misspoke. I will post some pictures as soon as I figure out how that works

[nikm128]

I cannot remember where but I have read of some reviewers who fed bug bites and had issues with their discus. If I remember they thought it had to do with something in the food that was not readily digestible. FWIW.

Oh, I had no idea. Should I start taking them off it and get Cobalt discus flakes or something?

[jeep]

Click on this button. Choose photo then upload...

123329

[Filip]

It sounds like a cross contamination from you newly added discus to me . Going dark , lethargic and buldging sounds like they got some bacterial issues.
I would start with Antibiotic an salt ASAP since they are already dying .You can try Furan along with 2 PPT salt if you have that on hand.

[jeep]

It sounds like a cross contamination from you newly added discus to me . Going dark , lethargic and buldging sounds like they got some bacterial issues.
I would start with Antibiotic an salt ASAP since they are already dying .You can try Furan along with 2 PPT salt if you have that on hand.

Also, keep water changes at 50%+ daily. This will reduce the count of any pathogens in the water...

[nikm128]

the pics I have are from when they were getting dark and lethargic a month ago. However I do have a video of the one that's having issues now
https://youtu.be/YhFmFF1VfuQ
If you look closely you can see the bulge I'm talking about
I'll keep up the daily 50%, and I also put in a UV sterilizer

[Tuterosso]

epsom salt bath fast

[jeep]

Yes, epsome salt! This looks like an internal infection. How many discus are affected at this time? Kanamycin is a great antibiotic for internal infections...

[klr-dude]

is it me or is there a lot of current in that tank ?
he seems to be swimming like crazy !

[danotaylor]

Don't think there's a high flow of current when you see a scrap of plant material kinda drift by...the way its lolling side to side and swimming constantly head down looks to me like a bouyancy (?spelling) issue...the abdomen is definitely swollen...perhaps a swim bladder infection??

[jeep]

I can't see any swelling in the swim bladder area, although it does struggle like it would with a bad bladder.

I would isolate this fish immediately in a 20g tank and lower the water level to just above the dorsal and treat with epsome and Kanamycin. Lowering the water level will reduce the energy exhausted as well as stress.

[nikm128]

OK, I will do an epsom bath ASAP
@jeep I'm assuming the remaining 4 are infected, but it only shows up on one at a time
@klr-dude There's some mild current, but she's been swimming/twitching like that since last night.
@danotaylor Can I do anything for swim bladder? I can't remember

[nikm128]

Well the good news is, she's swimming much better now and obviously is still alive. Apparently I don't have any pure epsom salt so I'm getting some now.
There is one problem though, I just realized I don't have a heater for my spare 20 gallon at the moment so I will have to find one. Since putting her back into the main tank will undo the work of the epsom bath, I might have to hold off until tomorrow or later tonight :(

[danotaylor]

I'm sorry mate, but I do not know the treatment for swim bladder disease...I do agree with Brian (jeep) that the way the fish swims looks like swim bladder but the location of the swelling is more like intestinal blockage. Do you feed freeze dried food? If it is not fully saturated when ingested it can soak in fishes gut juices and get "stuck" causing a blockage, hence the Epsom salt bath.

[nikm128]

I only feed frozen and pellets, occasionally flakes
The epsom salt bath seems to have helped though

[danotaylor]

Dry pellets can do the same thing if the fish gorges itself on them before they absorb water soften up...when I kept tropheus I had this issue numerous times so I started pre-soaking my dry pellets and feeding once moist & soft...not 1 episode of bloat after that...just a thought

[jeep]

This may have helped, but we still haven't determined the underlying cause. Breaking QT is too much of a coincidence to overlook. Most mild QT issues are external, but yours seems external and internal.

I wouldn't have normally suggested deworming for your initial issues and it may have complicated things. There should not be dead worms in the fish because Levamosile doesn't really kill the worms, but rather it paralyzes them, then they are expelled.

As for the external issue, I would keep temp at 82, add 3-5 TBS salt per 10g and do daily water changes of at least 50%, replacing the removed salt with each WC for 10 days...

Brian

[nikm128]

Ok, I will start soaking the pellets too then
I did vacuum the bottom like a madman every few hours after I treated the tank in hopes I'd get all the worms. Think I missed some?
3-5 tbs of epsom salt?

[jeep]

I use Levamisole twice, about 2 weeks apart, to make sure everything is in order and to take care of any eggs that may have been left around. But, I'm not sure I would do this in your case because we're not convinced that worms are the issue. I would make sure all external issues and bloat are under control first... I would use Kanamycin for the internal bloating if the epsome doesn't work... If it does work, give them a rest for awhile.

[Filip]

I agree with Brian . You have far important problems here to deal with before you start battling worms.

[nikm128]

Should I give all of them an epsom bath, or just do it as I see symptoms deeming it necessary? Dose the whole tank, or individually in a bucket?

[jeep]

Should I give all of them an epsom bath, or just do it as I see symptoms deeming it necessary? Dose the whole tank, or individually in a bucket?

Epsome combined with 3-5 TBS per gallon regular salt won't hurt anything. I never hesitate to treat 1 TBS salt per 1g when I see anything questionable. I would treat all...

[nikm128]

Ok, doing that now. Thank you

[nikm128]

Update, been soaking the food, using salt, daily 50% water changes, still have the UV sterilizer running....Still spreading, moved from the pigeon blood to a red-orange marlboro. What now? Just a waiting game?

[Filip]

I would try antibiotic treatment at this point (Kanamycine , erithromicine , Nitrofurazone ) and hope for the best .

[nikm128]

Would you suggest one of those over the others?

[Filip]

Would you suggest one of those over the others?

Don't have a first hand experience with successfull treatment of swim bladder my self .
Here is an older thread I just found where a member claimed succes with Furan 2 .
Kanamycine and Erithromicine+meth blue+Epsom salt are also recommended as possible treatments :

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?87769-Discus-Swim-Bladder-Problems/page2

[nikm128]

Do you see any chance of this burning itself out? It already seems to be be slowing rapidly, killed an adult turq in a few hours, held on to a juvie pigeon blood for 2-3 days, then only held onto the adult red-orange marlboro for a few hours. Seems like it'll be burnt out soon to me

[brewmaster15]

Im late to this thread and from reading it, its got alot of possible issues.

I would try kanamycin with metro as its the most effective combination we have for internal infections in fish that are not eating and its the most rapidly absorbed ime.

The question is whats the base cause. Like the others I think its a bacterial infection. Its hard to say where it came from but a possible scenario is the fish was initially sick with an external bacterial infection that resolved as they often do with new fish.

Its possible the levamisole killed worms in the fishes organs and that led to bacterial infection. If the worms are in the intestines they are passed out with waste...but in organs they can decompose and lead to infections and decomposition issues. This is one reason why I deworm when I first get fish... if fish have extensive worms deworming can be a real problem.


Its a guess in the worms but I think the best suggestion is the antibiotic .. whether its from decomposing worms or some other bacteria issue. I don't think this one is one we can ID the cause on... I would suggest a lab for that.

hth,
Al

[Filip]

.

I would try kanamycin with metro as its the most effective combination we have for internal infections in fish that are not eating and its the most rapidly absorbed ime.
Al


What dosage regime to follow when treat Metro +Kanamycine in conjunction Al ?
Should we use their recommended doses - 500mg /10 galons of Metro +200 mg / 1 gallon for Kanamycine or should it be lowered to some level ?

[brewmaster15]

Filip,

The metros dose of 500mg per 10 gal is fine. The kanamycin dose is a hard one... its unfortunately recommended at so many different concentrations.. Its been a very very long time since I have had to use it but have seen it work miracles in fish at 500 mgs per 10 gals so thats what I have used when needed... I also carry it out 10 days as I do any antibiotic I have used.

hth,
Al

[nikm128]

Update: Well I thought I had finally beat whatever was going on, but not even 5 minutes ago I notice the pigeon blood trying to swim upside down at the top of the tank, on top of the bubble wall from the airstones, also looking even more bloated then before. I've kept up the water changes and medicated with metro and kanamycin as suggested. I'm starting to lose hope :( what now?

[brewmaster15]

So its been a couple weeks now and they were fine and are acting up again? Are you still feeding bug bites?

Al

[nikm128]

Basically, I don't know what happened. I got cobalt discus flakes now, I still have a tiny bit of bug bites mixed with that so it's familiar, but I plan on having it out completely by the end of this week.

[nikm128]

Would boiled and de-shelled peas be appropriate?

[nikm128]

*sigh* can I get a: banging my head on the wall smilie? I swear this fish is going to kill me, it's acting fine again

[brewmaster15]

*sigh* can I get a: banging my head on the wall smilie? I swear this fish is going to kill me, it's acting fine again

It sounds like its getting bloated/constipated from food.

al

[nikm128]

It sounds like its getting bloated/constipated from food.

al
Ok, so I'm going to just stop the bug bites a few days early. Should I do a three day fast, or feed peas for a few days?

[danotaylor]

Stop the bug bites and add Epsom salt 1tbsp/10gal to help ease the constipation

[nikm128]

Done, and done!
Thank you all for the help so far by the way