Inactive, dark discus

[kilnakorr]

Hi

I'm planning to add two more discus as a friend is shutting down his tank.
I noticed however one of them doesn't look well.
(Un)fortunately I haven't dealt much with sick discus so I need some help.

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE*


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Inactive, keeping to itself in back of tank. Been like this for roughly 2 weeks, sometimes comes out to eat very little

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills,*white/yellow/green poop, hiding,*headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus,*blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Dark, maybe cloudy eyes (hard to tell due to light)

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

None

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

90 gl tank with 6 6-12 month discus.
Amano shrimps
10-15 small barbs

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

3 to 4 times x 40% weekly

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tanks been running for just over 6 months I think.
Substrate is soil about 3" thick.
Heavily planted tank.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

No
Tap water with microsocket and Prime.

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.



- temp ___82.5 F__

- ph ___8.0 to 7.2__*(CO2 injected)

- ammonia reading ___0_

- nitrite reading ___0_

- nitrate reading __10ppm

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water __X__

- RO water ____



9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

beefheart mix from stendker, flake (2 kinds but not sure what brand) fdbw. Fed 3 times a day. Flakes morning, beefheart day and fdbw evening

11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

123704
123705

Note, all the white dots in picture is CO2 mist.
It's not dirt or attached on the discus.

Also, since the fish is to be quarantined anyways it will be moved to quarantine / hospital tank this evening.
I just don't want to throw meds around without having a good idea on what we are dealing with.

[Filip]

I would start with lots of fresh water in a bare QT tank and just salt (3-4 grams per liter) . You can salt dip it too before you transfer it to your fresh QT tank .
Here is a link on that if you decide to give it a shot:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip

You should have Qt them before mixing with your stock , but I guess you already knew that .

[kilnakorr]

I would start with lots of fresh water in a bare QT tank and just salt (3-4 grams per liter) . You can salt dip it too before you transfer it to your fresh QT tank .
Here is a link on that if you decide to give it a shot:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?70580-How-To-Do-a-Salt-Dip

You should have Qt them before mixing with your stock , but I guess you already knew that .


Maybe lots of water and salt will be enough.
I haven't added any to my tank. As mentioned it is to be moved from my friend's tank to quarantine anyway this evening, before going to my house:)
Will give it a few days without meds and see if it brightens up.

Any pointers on what to look out for, or what to try if nothing changes?

[jeep]

I would also bump the heat to 90f as long as there are no bacterial issues...

[kilnakorr]

I would also bump the heat to 90f as long as there are no bacterial issues...

If only I knew what to look for regarding bacterial issues :)
I'll go through some of the info on the forum.

It doesn't look to serious at the moment, so will take it easy with some good clean water, quite time and some salt.

[jeep]

If only I knew what to look for regarding bacterial issues :)
I'll go through some of the info on the forum.

It doesn't look to serious at the moment, so will take it easy with some good clean water, quite time and some salt.

Basically, no fluffy looking gills, heavy breathing or spots on the body. I think heat, along with clean water and salt will help in this situation :D

[kilnakorr]

A small update.
Went to my friends house to help setup the hospital tank.
Another discus seems inactive with clamped dorsal fin.
A small discus seems to have rapid breathing, but very active and eating like crazy.

The first mentioned discus came out from hiding briefly.
It isn't really dark or have cloudy eyes. It was simple the light or lack of it. It quickly went back to it's spot though.

It seems it's not just a single discus having issues.
We did a 50% WC, but hospital tank isn't big enough for all the fish.

Suggestions are welcome.

[danotaylor]

Perhaps a build up of other dissolved organics d/t substrate & plants trapping waste. Bacterial count could be high, but that is difficult to know.
It is possible to temporarily remove substrate & plants and treat fish with salt and lots of clean water in the main tank bare bottom?

[kilnakorr]

Perhaps a build up of other dissolved organics d/t substrate & plants trapping waste. Bacterial count could be high, but that is difficult to know.
It is possible to temporarily remove substrate & plants and treat fish with salt and lots of clean water in the main tank bare bottom?

I'm sure my friend won't allow removing plants and substrate.
The plan is to keep plants and get the discus out, which means even raising the temperature might be a problem (is this recommended without knowing if there could be bacteria issues?).

[Filip]

Maybe lots of water and salt will be enough.
I haven't added any to my tank. As mentioned it is to be moved from my friend's tank to quarantine anyway this evening, before going to my house:)
Will give it a few days without meds and see if it brightens up.

Any pointers on what to look out for, or what to try if nothing changes?

Do you plan to take all of them or just 2 ?
Either way you should perform a proper 2 months QT in your home under your observation, not his .

If you do not have a proper spacing to QT all of them , take only what you can house and leave the rest for another hobbist.

My hintch tells me that they are just worn out and showing different symthoms from bad overall conditions and will start thriving under a proper care in a couple of weeks , but you need to confirm that by your self with A proper QT observation .

I wouldn't bump the temps up when discus already breathe faster and when they are already darkened and skittish but just salt dip them in a bucket on arrival and put them in a fresh and sterile QT tank with 3 % salinity .
I would follow with daily 100% WCs with aged water and maintain a constant salinity level of 3 PPT during the first week or two .

[danotaylor]

Do you plan to take all of them or just 2 ?
Either way you should perform a proper 2 months QT in your home under your observation, not his .

If you do not have a proper spacing to QT all of them , take only what you can house and leave the rest for another hobbist.

My hintch tells me that they are just worn out and showing different symthoms from bad overall conditions and will start thriving under a proper care in a couple of weeks , but you need to confirm that by your self with A proper QT observation .

I wouldn't bump the temps up when discus already breathe faster and when they are already darkened and skittish but just salt dip them in a bucket on arrival and put them in a fresh and sterile QT tank with 3 % salinity .
I would follow with daily 100% WCs with aged water and maintain a constant salinity level of 3 PPT during the first week or two .

Great advice here mate!

[kilnakorr]

Do you plan to take all of them or just 2 ?
Either way you should perform a proper 2 months QT in your home under your observation, not his .

If you do not have a proper spacing to QT all of them , take only what you can house and leave the rest for another hobbist.

My hintch tells me that they are just worn out and showing different symthoms from bad overall conditions and will start thriving under a proper care in a couple of weeks , but you need to confirm that by your self with A proper QT observation .

I wouldn't bump the temps up when discus already breathe faster and when they are already darkened and skittish but just salt dip them in a bucket on arrival and put them in a fresh and sterile QT tank with 3 % salinity .
I would follow with daily 100% WCs with aged water and maintain a constant salinity level of 3 PPT during the first week or two .

I only have room for 2 more, the rest will go to someone else.
I will definitely QT in my own house where I can keep an eye on things, but at the moment I'm thinking that perhaps something else might be going on and all fish or entire tank might end up needing some sort of treatment.
On the otherhand if I QT the 2 fish I'm getting and clean water does the trick then chances are we aren't looking at sick fish but most likely 'worn out' instead. In my humble experience discus tends to respond very quickly if water quality is an issue and it is corrected.

[danotaylor]

Right on. I have seen the turn around a number of times when I have slacked off and picked it up again...

[kilnakorr]

an update:

So my friend didn't have the patience to wait for my feedback and the stupid ***** started treatment with some 'random' meds:
He used a combination of esha 2000 and esha Exit:

eSHa 2000:
Treats a wide range of fungal, bacterial and parasitic infections, helps heal wounds and protects the skin layer. Use eSHa 2000 for Fungus, Dropsy, bacteria, skin problems, gill problems, fin rot, tail rot, ulcers and wounds. Also for Neon Tetra disease and many others.

eSHa EXIT
An effective treatment against all Spot (lchthyophthirius) diseases. eSHa EXIT also cures Velvet. - Acts fast against Whitespot and other Spot parasites. - Safe for use with sensitive tropical fish. eSHa EXIT can be used in combination with eSHa 2000 - Fungus, Finrot Bacteria Treatment. This combination provides you with a broadly effective tool to treat most diseases your fish will encounter.

He started treatment late last night.
It seems the before mentioned fish with clamped dorsal fin, isn't clamping it's fin anymore and is a little more active.
The fast breather is breathing slower and not quite as heavy (mouth is less open when breathing).

All seems to be a little annoyed with slight scratching on plants from time to time.

Although, it's seems to be a positive development, I really hate he did this, as it's impossible to tell if meds had an effect or if it was the large WC that made the difference (or a combination).

For now, I'm letting him do the remaining 2 days of the treatment, followed by WC, and insist to follow them daily to see how they all act.
It's difficult asking for help, get advice and make plans when he just does random things on the side.

[Filip]

Maybe this medicine combo along with the increased WCs will improve their condition a bit . If he sees any improvement maybe it's better to add a couple of days more to the treatment .

[kilnakorr]

Maybe this medicine combo along with the increased WCs will improve their condition a bit . If he sees any improvement maybe it's better to add a couple of days more to the treatment .

Directions on the meds is a 3 day treatment. Better do what it says.
I just returned from his house, watching a feeding.
They all seemed quite sluggish and not too interested in the fdbw, basically just nipping at those floating right by them.
All seems to breath a little heavy.

Most unexpected, spawning is taking place! I first thought one was at the surface gasping for air, but was laying eggs at the top of the tank.

I'll never understand discus :D

[jeep]

Well, I doubt they are very sick if they are spawning, lol!!

I think once you bring them home and give them good, clean water in a QT tank they will be just fine...

[kilnakorr]

Well, I doubt they are very sick if they are spawning, lol!!

I think once you bring them home and give them good, clean water in a QT tank they will be just fine...

At least not all of them.
At the moment most of them are idle in one corner, remaining discus just idle scattered around.
One has long whittish feces, so something is wrong.
I noticed he has gotten 2 rams, which has been added nearly 3 weeks ago. They could easily have brought something with them

[Filip]

They have received a cocktail of many strong ingredients so being more sluggish and not eating well is not unussual . I have also experienced sick and unwell (darkened and noneating )discus pairing in the past .

[kilnakorr]

I decided to convince my friend to do a test.
I did a big WC 60-70%, dimmed the light, turned of the CO2 and turned of the bigger powerhead. Basically making the tank calm and cozy.
An hour after the WC i tried feeding a little fdbw, and most of them went straight at them with huge appetite. Even the sick one came out and ate some!
My friend has to leave for a few days (which is why he tried speed up the process with meds), so I'll be in charge.
I'm just gonna keep the tank calm with dimmed light and do some daily WC.
Will keep updating, just because I hate when forum threads like these suddenly stops and noone knows how things turned out.
This could very well be another example that the issue was water quality.