500 Gallon project, Dreaming of keeping Discus but afraid!

[magedsabri]

Hello Everyone

I am in the process if building my dream setup which will be an in-wall 500 Gallon tank viewable from both sides, below are some pictures for the work in progress and full setup design, I will not have any live plants in this tank, I will have a white sand substrate with rocks and driftwood only.

I have successfully kept African Cichlids before for few years in my old and smaller tank, this is my first time going for such large setup. I have been dreaming to keep Discus but I'm always afraid to do so because I'v been warned on how it is very complicated to keep them and how sensitive they are.

Now with my new setup, I really want to make it a Discus Tank, kindly let me know your feedback on the setup and what I need to know/do to keep this wonderful fish.

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[Pices]

Wowie Mowie, that’s a huge tank! I love the planned aqua scape. How big is your sump and how much water can you hold in storage under the tank? I’m no expert in these areas, just nosy. Ha ha
Patty

[jeep]

Very nice project and goals you have going on! Please keep us updated as you proceed!!!

You might find this thread to be of interest. It's a similar project... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?132928-Tobi%92s-contest-thread-gt-650-gallon-build

I'm sure Tobi would be happy to answer any questions you may have...
Brian

[Cove Beach]

I like the scape you are going with, it leaves plenty of open space for them, yet gives escapes in case of any chasing that may occur. I do have a couple of concerns and suggestions. Having set up several large systems both fresh and saltwater, having easy access for maintenance is a huge key to success. From the picture you posted it looks like a very small space between the top of the sump and bottom of the display. Having space to work to clean without hitting your head will help make life easier down the road. Also is there enough room between the baffles in your sump to be able to clean? Getting a siphon to all areas to remove detritus is a must. One other thing is water storage, if the chamber on the right side is for top off from evaporation cool, if it’s for water change you will definitely need something much larger. I am currently doing 110 gal changes on my 400 gal system and am considering on increasing that. Looking forward to seeing your progress!

[magedsabri]

my Sump is 47"X19"X19"
I can keep 55 Gallon on my storage tank.

[magedsabri]

I like the scape you are going with, it leaves plenty of open space for them, yet gives escapes in case of any chasing that may occur. I do have a couple of concerns and suggestions. Having set up several large systems both fresh and saltwater, having easy access for maintenance is a huge key to success. From the picture you posted it looks like a very small space between the top of the sump and bottom of the display. Having space to work to clean without hitting your head will help make life easier down the road. Also is there enough room between the baffles in your sump to be able to clean? Getting a siphon to all areas to remove detritus is a must. One other thing is water storage, if the chamber on the right side is for top off from evaporation cool, if it’s for water change you will definitely need something much larger. I am currently doing 110 gal changes on my 400 gal system and am considering on increasing that. Looking forward to seeing your progress!


Unfortunately, I can't manage to have more space so i will have to manage this way, i can still fit a siphon and maintain the sump, of course it is tight but I have to live with it, as for the chamber on the right it 55 Gallon and it will be used for auto top off and water change as well, it is 55 gallon, this is the max size i can fit in this space and i'm planning to do daily or each other day 10% water change with that setup, not sure if this works for Discus or not, if not then I will have to keep another fish :(

[magedsabri]

Very nice project and goals you have going on! Please keep us updated as you proceed!!!

You might find this thread to be of interest. It's a similar project... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?132928-Tobi%92s-contest-thread-gt-650-gallon-build

I'm sure Tobi would be happy to answer any questions you may have...
Brian

thanks :)

[magedsabri]

Very nice project and goals you have going on! Please keep us updated as you proceed!!!

You might find this thread to be of interest. It's a similar project... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?132928-Tobi%92s-contest-thread-gt-650-gallon-build

I'm sure Tobi would be happy to answer any questions you may have...
Brian

Many thanks :)

[magedsabri]

So my main question, with such setup given the space I have below the tank with no room to add anything else, is it a good system to keep Discus or not, specially I have never kept them before, I kept African Cichlids and I know they will do well in such system, but my understanding is Discus are not as easy or hardy as Africans

[Filip]

HI Maged and welcome to the forum .
That's a on hell of a tank you are setting up there . The size is great and your planning seems nice too .
Is that your planned scape with the rocks on the photo ?

If you are willing to start with full grown discus and keep the bioload light (i.e. 15-20 full grown discus and a school of 100 diether fish ) than I would say sure , why not .
I would also try to find a way of keeping the bottom clean of debris , food and poop , and you'll have to figure it out how to do that with the stone structure you are planning to put .
I wish there was a bigger aging tank , at least doulble size , but if you don't have a big PH swing in your tap water , maybe you still would be able to perform 50 % WCs from time to time if you feel the need to do that .

Good luck Maged and please keep us updated with your progress on this excellent project .

[magedsabri]

HI Maged and welcome to the forum .
That's a on hell of a tank you are setting up there . The size is great and your planning seems nice too .
Is that your planned scape with the rocks on the photo ?

If you are willing to start with full grown discus and keep the bioload light (i.e. 15-20 full grown discus and a school of 100 diether fish ) than I would say sure , why not .
I would also try to find a way of keeping the bottom clean of debris , food and poop , and you'll have to figure it out how to do that with the stone structure you are planning to put .
I wish there was a bigger aging tank , at least doulble size , but if you don't have a big PH swing in your tap water , maybe you still would be able to perform 50 % WCs from time to time if you feel the need to do that .

Good luck Maged and please keep us updated with your progress on this excellent project .


Thanks a lot! :) the scape in the photo is just a sample, I used to explain that i will go with white sand substrate and decorate with rocks and driftwood only without any live plants, the actual planned scape will be simpler.

My plan was to always go for a light bio-load, I'm a fan of keeping population light as it looks much better for my taste :) , actually I was planning to go for a fully grown or semi fully grown and a max of 20 seems a good number I may even go for less, but I was not planning to have any diether schooling fish, is this a must? I'm was planning to keep just few service fish like Placos or Red Tail Sharks for exmple, so a total of max 25 fish or so in the tank between the Discus and service fish.

I wish I was able to have a larger aging tank, but space is limiting me, maybe I will find a way to put 2 large barrels in my laundry room and use it as aging storage for water changes and use a long hose with a water pump to push the water to the tank.

[klr-dude]

nice set up .
i would make an overflow to a waste on the left hand side of the sump where the return water enters .
that way you can do water changes by merely activating your top up pump , by means of a timer .
it works very good for me and it makes it safe .
i have the storage water one degree cooler than the aquarium itself and instead of a spray bar i have an pipe lower in the tank , that way the fresh water will take some time to mix and only the older water will go through the overflow and waste .
also i used pool filter sand for substrate and it works very well if you get the right kind , my corydoras love it .
hope to see an update when you're done .

[magedsabri]

i would make an overflow to a waste on the left hand side of the sump where the return water enters .
that way you can do water changes by merely activating your top up pump , by means of a timer .
.

Thanks :) , I didn't understand this part clearly.

[magedsabri]

Thanks a lot! :) the scape in the photo is just a sample, I used to explain that i will go with white sand substrate and decorate with rocks and driftwood only without any live plants, the actual planned scape will be simpler.

My plan was to always go for a light bio-load, I'm a fan of keeping population light as it looks much better for my taste :) , actually I was planning to go for a fully grown or semi fully grown and a max of 20 seems a good number I may even go for less, but I was not planning to have any diether schooling fish, is this a must? I'm was planning to keep just few service fish like Placos or Red Tail Sharks for exmple, so a total of max 25 fish or so in the tank between the Discus and service fish.

I wish I was able to have a larger aging tank, but space is limiting me, maybe I will find a way to put 2 large barrels in my laundry room and use it as aging storage for water changes and use a long hose with a water pump to push the water to the tank.


@Filip, What do you think about this?

[Filip]

@Filip, What do you think about this?

Sounds like a good plan to me Maged .
Diether schooling fish was just an example for a discus tankmates , you absolutely don't need them if you don't like them .
Red tail sharks are way to boisterous and agressive for peacefull discus fish and you should avoid them .
Plecos and Ancistrus are good for keeping the tank glass and decoration free of algae but there have been many reports by members here on this forum that they can develop a taste for discus slime coat and start bothering them.They are also nocturnal feeders so it can very well go unnoticed too.
Coridoras sterbai are very good bottom dwellers and they can help with dispensing the debris in water column where your filters will catch it .

For larger % WC . Measure your Tap watert parameters and PH in particular . Measure the PH on the 24 hour aged water too , and compare the gap between them
. If the swing is not too big , maybe you'll be able to do 50% WC once a week with unaged tap water with just a sponge prefilter to trap the tap microbubbles and dissolved gasses .

[magedsabri]

Thanks a lot for reply.

[Filip]

Thanks a lot for reply.

Its always my pleasure Maged .
Good luck with your planning and I would gladly
Follow the progress on our 500 G project here.

[magedsabri]

An idea crossed my mind and not sure if it will work, what if I make a gravel or sand covered with epoxy as the substrate, the idea is to still have a good and natural look but with the benefits of bare bottom tank, not sure still how this can be done, but I'm interested in the idea.

[Filip]

An idea crossed my mind and not sure if it will work, what if I make a gravel or sand covered with epoxy as the substrate, the idea is to still have a good and natural look but with the benefits of bare bottom tank, not sure still how this can be done, but I'm interested in the idea.

It has been done here and in other marine tanks in the past .
There are a couple of threads here on this subject , search for False or Faux sandbed here and on Google and you can find examples .
The only drawback I see and read is the problem with the false sandbed getting constantly covered with algae that are very difficult to scrub away because of it's Sandbrush structure .

[magedsabri]

Interesting to know :) will have a look, will update the thread with my progress.

[magedsabri]

I saw some videos about using ceramic or porcelain tiles for the bottom of the tank, I liked it so much and i think it is very simple and looks much better than bare bottom and of course way easier than going this epoxy faux sandbed route, will this affect the PH for Discus?

[Filip]

I saw some videos about using ceramic or porcelain tiles for the bottom of the tank, I liked it so much and i think it is very simple and looks much better than bare bottom and of course way easier than going this epoxy faux sandbed route, will this affect the PH for Discus?

Epoxy is neutral as far as i have read , and about tiles I doubt that they can affect PH but it wouldnt hurt to do the thorough research on that specific material , you chose to go with .Many different materials so choose your favorite and read all about it

[slicksta]

Coming from a person that likes to think outside the box and has had several unconventional aquariums... it doesn't seem to be a good idea. Especially for a large build that you're afraid of. :-p
I would maybe try it in a 20 g for a year as a test. Sand to me seems pointless... but gravel/stone could be interesting as you could leave the top layer of stone not fully submerged in the epoxy.
I think for it to look best you would have to make it part of the tank by setting up the substrate in the aquarium and carefully adding the epoxy to the right level. This to look desirable would require some trial-and-error. The building of an epoxy mat that you'd add to the aquarium seems like a bad idea to me

[magedsabri]

After some research I think I will avoid epoxy approach and go for porcelain tiles, I saw many threads and videos with people doing it and even breeding with it.

[magedsabri]

Coming from a person that likes to think outside the box and has had several unconventional aquariums... it doesn't seem to be a good idea. Especially for a large build that you're afraid of. :-p
I would maybe try it in a 20 g for a year as a test. Sand to me seems pointless... but gravel/stone could be interesting as you could leave the top layer of stone not fully submerged in the epoxy.
I think for it to look best you would have to make it part of the tank by setting up the substrate in the aquarium and carefully adding the epoxy to the right level. This to look desirable would require some trial-and-error. The building of an epoxy mat that you'd add to the aquarium seems like a bad idea to me

The main reason I'm afraid is that I never kept Discus before and I'm always hearing it is extremely difficult to keep it, but I always loved it and now I wanted to give it a try this is why I'm trying to research well to make a good setup as much as I possibly can

[danotaylor]

Maged discus are actually not difficult to keep if you give them what they need...of course occasionally stuff happens that is beyond ones control, but if you take the sound advice of the peeps who have been around SD for ages it will most likely go well...sometimes having kept other species of fish & cichlids for years is a hindrance because the maintenance requirements of those other fish is totally different...coming in fresh and doing how people who've done it for years do it will do you well! I kept african & south/central american cichlids for 35 years before turning to discus last year...my experience has been wonderful, but I did have to change my approach to cater to my discus's needs.

[Filip]

...sometimes having kept other species of fish & cichlids for years is a hindrance because the maintenance requirements of those other fish is totally different..

This is very true Daniel . IMO , The most counterproductive former experience and mindset in starting discus is the one of the former Marine keepers and right next to them stand the plant keepers :) . It almost always takes a long inner battle I think , untill they change their way of doing things and conform with waterchanges in particular and all the other discus maintenance routines .

[slicksta]

The main reason I'm afraid is that I never kept Discus before and I'm always hearing it is extremely difficult to keep it, but I always loved it and now I wanted to give it a try this is why I'm trying to research well to make a good setup as much as I possibly can

Have no worries as it looks as you are doing your research and that's what most that fail do not do.
And I hope you know that I was joking with you when I said that you were afraid ;-)

This is my take on keeping discus. . .
As someone who kept other tropicals but mostly African Cichlids for many years prior I feel that the experience was very helpful. Experience is always something to look back on for information and not take as the only way to do things. When it came time to try discus I made the transition fairly painlessly as I did a lot of reading prior. Not to say that things went perfectly as my biggest mistake was trying to hard.
Now coming from lower New York state, the water here is near perfect for keeping discus and I feel this gives me a great advantage as I now do nothing to my water other than removing chlorine.
That said, the important things are... Start with healthy fish, feed quality food and doing water changes.... and most importantly... Keep it SIMPLE.
Again NY water is excellent for keeping discus but in the beginning I dabbled with carbon filters, peat moss, adjusting pH, aging water, UV lights, nitrate filters, medications and probably a few other things that I don't remember. And in the end all of that just made me tired and was of no to very little benefit.
All I do know is continually change water via a constant drip with the chlorine removed, filter with floss(because I have fine sand as a substrate), sponges and bio_balls and my fish and I have never been happier. Once established I occasionally test my water more as a curiosity as I know it's best not to try and change its parameters.
Now if your areas water is not as conducive, you may have to do a little more.. But keep it as simple as possible and see if your fish can adapt to the water rather than constantly trying to adapt the water to them as that is the part that is very difficult and hard to maintain consistency.
That's my two cents... probably worth half that in today's market.
Best of luck and keep reading.

[magedsabri]

Many thanks, I know you were joking :)
I always kept it simple while keeping african cichlids and they were breeding regularly in my old tank.
I want to keep it simple as much as possible with my discus trial, I live in Egypt and I don't know if my water parameters are good for discus without the need for aging or not but I hope so, that would make it way easier for me, I then can do the water changes directly from tap water while adding seachem safe with each change.

[klr-dude]

Thanks :) , I didn't understand this part clearly.

i find it hard to say it differently .
lets try .
if you make an overflow pipe in your sump at the right level and hook it up to a waste line , you can just add water and what is to much , will just go into the sewer
that way you don't have to remove water yourself , it goes automatically .
hope this is clearer .

[slicksta]

i find it hard to say it differently .
lets try .
if you make an overflow pipe in your sump at the right level and hook it up to a waste line , you can just add water and what is to much , will just go into the sewer
that way you don't have to remove water yourself , it goes automatically .
hope this is clearer .

I agree... But with some added features.
Make the hole low in the sump and add a 90 elbow on the inside of the sump and some pipe to get the exact level you are looking for. And it's easy to fine tune by just turning the elbow a few degrees. You do not need to glue these, just put some Teflon tape on the male parts, push fit and it'll be water tight and easy to turn. You can then also easy disassemble the interior pipes if you want to drain the sump. You will need to make sure your drain has the correct pitch.
Lastly I have the waste water going to a 55 gallon storage container and then it overflows to the sewer. This is the best fertilized water for your garden ;-)

[magedsabri]

My main tank has a hole in the bottom which is plumped directly to the sewer, I will just open a valve and water will be drained directly from the tank to the sewer, I also have a water source under the main tank which will be plumped directly to the tank for filling it with new fresh water when I want to make water changes.

[slicksta]

That should work fine and we're not trying to get you to change your master plan as you know the logistics of your situation better than we do.
What klr-dude and I suggested are just options for you to consider as we found them to be helpful in our situation. Especially for me that I am adding water 24/7, I needed a constant unmanaged way of draining off the excess water. And by locating it in the sump it is not visible in the aquarium. You'll just need to be involved a little more in the water change process.
All good ;-)

[magedsabri]

Thanks for sharing experience :)

[Filip]

My main tank has a hole in the bottom which is plumped directly to the sewer, I will just open a valve and water will be drained directly from the tank to the sewer, I also have a water source under the main tank which will be plumped directly to the tank for filling it with new fresh water when I want to make water changes.

It sounds to me like you are already set and prepared for some easy and serious discus keeping Maged :) .
Just check your PH swings between straight tap and aged water and find a way to prefilter and outgass the tap water and you are ready to go .

[magedsabri]

I'm very serious :) and many thanks for all the replies and advice from everyone here which is very encouraging.

I will have my water source connected to 3 stages filter which should remove the chlorine and gases before it is added to the tank or the top off tank, I will check the PH swings and if it is wide range specially that I will have a lot of driftwood which may affect the PH l will keep the water source under the tank for the auto top off system only and age water in 2 large barrels in my laundry room and use a water pump with a hose to fill the tank for water changes.

[slicksta]

You may want to consider a constant drip if you are already installing a three stage filter for your tap.
Now I'll warn you that this does not work for everyone and I'll repeat again that NY water seems to be well suited to keeping discus. But if it does work for you, it makes life so so much easier.
My tap is a pH of 7 and I have it going through a two stage filter to remove chlorine. I drip approximately 20% of the tank capacity in a 24 hour period. This I adjust for bioload as needed and try to keep my nitrates around 20ppm. But once the tank is set I very rarely adjust it further. I drip directly in front of the pump intake that returns the water back from the sump to the aquarium so that it must make at least one pass through the tank before going down the drain.
My tank is a pH of 5.5 because of the bioload and driftwood. But since the added water is at a constant rate, there are no fluctuations in pH.
For me this provides the most stable water parameters because you are not introducing new water in large quantities.
But it will mean that you also need the aforementioned drain. . .preferably in the sump as well.

That said. . continue as you are and maybe allow for this adaptation in your plumbing in the future this way you can experiment with both methods of water change.

[magedsabri]

Sounds like an interesting approach, once I finish my setup and try for few months and learn how everything works with Discus I will definitely analyze my water situation and give it a try.

[FreshwaterCentral]

Are you planning to keep any other fish or just Discus.

A school of 500 cardinal or neon tetras would look great with the Discus.

[magedsabri]

So far the plan is to keep only Discus with some corydoras catfish.

[magedsabri]

Here are few photos for the work in progress, first water test and drain pipe plumping to the sewer :):):):)

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[magedsabri]

So I calculated the max volume I can have for the aging tank in the space under the main tank, it will be 65 Gallons, that is around 15% of the water volume of the main tank, I was wondering can I use it to make a water change each 3 days, that will be 30% weekly with a bio load of 50% only of max tank capacity.

[slicksta]

Your best bet is to base your water change regime on Nitrate levels... keeping them at or below 20ppm is ideal.
With the numbers you provided it may be ok, but you also need to consider how much you are feeding ..now that would be a guess, educated as it may be... lol

[magedsabri]

Your best bet is to base your water change regime on Nitrate levels... keeping them at or below 20ppm is ideal.
With the numbers you provided it may be ok, but you also need to consider how much you are feeding ..now that would be a guess, educated as it may be... lol

I like your educated guess because this is what I wish will be the case.. lol.

[magedsabri]

I have the below old filter, I was thinking about filling it with a media like Seachem Matrix and use a low flow 40 or 50 GPH pump to build a DIY anaerobic bacteria reactor in my sump, I understand that this can help in controlling the nitrate levels, I'm not planning to do less water changes but I though this might increase the quality of the environment overall, and it won't cost much. what do you think?

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[slicksta]

My experience with nitrate filters is that the water flow needs to be so slow that it's useless. To be of any use it would have to be 1000 times larger in scale.
Keep it simple and life is easy :-)

[magedsabri]

My experience with nitrate filters is that the water flow needs to be so slow that it's useless. To be of any use it would have to be 1000 times larger in scale.
Keep it simple and life is easy :-)

OK, switching back to keep it simple mood... lol
Thanks for the advice.

[magedsabri]

Project Update...........system is almost ready, I'm very excited 123988123989

[jhm119]

How did you make out? I am looking to do a tank this size or slightly larger and love the idea of the constant drip into the sump. Did you end up installing this?