Can someone "define" the argument against planted tanks?

[Rolla P]

I have been browsing this forum for a while. Reading through the knowledge and the science behind how many of you approach keeping Discus is worth it's weight in gold to me. I feel as though, with some more reading and perhaps a few more questions I can hit the proverbial ground running so to speak. But there is one thing I don't quite understand despite reading through a lot of arguments both for and against. And that's why?

Why are people against planted setups for discus?

And I know that to some that may seem like the newbiest of newbie questions. But as a newbie to the species the argument seems so entrenched that the reasoning/founding issue is lost in and amongst the fray. It's possible I've read the reasoning and didn't understand it at the time and perhaps there is a link or two I've missed. But from the outside (until recently of course) looking in, the actual core issue seems buried yet at the same time vital. And so I figured I'd ask for a definitive explanation of the issue.

Thanks.

[discuspaul]

Simple - the more 'things' you have in your tank of discus (particularly as a beginner) - e.g. décor, driftwood, other tank-mates, and in particular - PLANTS - the more difficult it is, and becomes, to keep the tank squeaky clean, and free of any unwelcome spots for wastes & debris to collect, amass, and fester, thereby providing a multitude of breeding grounds for the development of undesirable bacteria, among other harmful pathogens.

This environment (e.g. a planted set-up) creates a situation where ideal water quality and conditions are very difficult to achieve with any degree of consistency, especially where large, daily infusions of fresh water seldom receive priority attention.

This is why the highly recommended approach to starting into discus-keeping is a bare-bottom tank - obviously so extremely easy to keep sparkling clean with very little effort - that's the secret to discus-keeping success !

Hope you get the picture.

And Apologies Rolla, for neglecting to welcome you to Simply - Here's hoping you learn, enjoy, and succeed at keeping discus.

[pastry]

Hey Rolla! I'm a planted discus tank-bubba but will be first to side with BB as best method. I 100% agree with Paul! It's just my choice to do planted and although I strongly feel that bare bottom yields healthier, bigger, more vibrant, and longer lifespan discus... I choose to go against the grain because I love Driftwood and plants and how The discus maneuver. I just try to constantly improve different things to increase the health of my discus while still having a planted tank. I definitely know I can still improve my rate of water changes, I believe I need to switch to a sump once I move to another house rather than have a canister, I said raise little ones in a bare bottom and then transfer them to my show tank, the diet I feed them I think could be better, and so on and so forth. Regardless, I truly believe that if I did the exact same thing with a good number of fish from the same spawn but in a bare bottom tank then the bare bottom group would be noticeably better. Best I can do is try to narrow back Gap. I don't see anything wrong with planted tanks although that might contradict everything I just said. I love seeing more planted tanks so that maybe other folks May come up with great ideas to help close that Gap I mentioned.

[kilnakorr]

Most have already been said.
When you think about plants and discus you want two things together that has opposite needs.
Discus loves clean water and plants need nutrients.
Putting these in same tank is a complex and neverending balancingen act.
Experience with both planted tanks and discus is a must if you want to go down this path, and it's still alot of work!

[bluelagoon]

And you really need to do even more substrate cleaning; old plant parts do decay and make even more waste. More work. That can be rather difficult in a planted tank, especially around the roots.

[brewmaster15]

Rolla its very cool to have you here reading and posting. Welcome!

Its not so much that discus and planted tanks are mutually exclusive but its really got a lot to with your goals and experiences. Discus do look great in a planted tank even if they dont really come from an environment thats loaded with aquatic plants.

For me, best bet for novices is go bare bottom, learn the fish care thats specific to discus and then once they are older and done growing if you want to add plants have at it...but even then keep it simple. Driftwood and plants tied to it is a great compromise as is potted plants.

Of course if you are a skilled aquatic plant person you may be able to accelerate the learning curve and find a happy compromise between your plants and Discus.We have a bunch of members that have done this.

Al

[farebox]

I've done this tank with substrate for an planted tank and only keep it that way for only a few weeks. Personally like the ease of maintaining an bare bottom tank for my fish, so that's way I go this way. Done some plants in pots and will kept it this way. Check video of my tank and form your own option you may want to go for your fish. https://youtu.be/qOhx0CbnH7w

[danotaylor]

http://youtu.be/qOhx0CbnH7w

[Rolla P]

Hey guys and Gals.

I really appreciate the feedback here. I've been in the hobby for years. I Graduated from a uncycled goldfish setup to a High Tech planted tank over time and so, perhaps to my detriment, I'm starting out with plants suited to Discus temps. I think that instead of removing the plants I might first try a different type of scape that doesn't allow or easily lend itself to mulm/detritus settling and allowing bacs to thrive. Again I really appreciate the feedback on this one. It's also awesome to be talking to you.

[Filip]

Hey guys and Gals.

I really appreciate the feedback here. I've been in the hobby for years. I Graduated from a uncycled goldfish setup to a High Tech planted tank over time and so, perhaps to my detriment, I'm starting out with plants suited to Discus temps. I think that instead of removing the plants I might first try a different type of scape that doesn't allow or easily lend itself to mulm/detritus settling and allowing bacs to thrive. Again I really appreciate the feedback on this one. It's also awesome to be talking to you.

Give it at least a couple of months to graduate in discus first just like you did with the planted tanks , before you start combining them both .
You'll be one step ahead of the game if you do that first .

[pastry]

Of course if you are a skilled aquatic plant person you may be able to accelerate the learning curve and find a happy compromise between your plants and Discus.We have a bunch of members that have done this.

Al

I am NOT one of those members Al described! Paul, Al, and others have given you a really good understanding of the pros and cons. And I agree with all of them! My advice would be, pour a glass of wine on a Friday night and read the heck out of planted tanks and bare bottom tank threads. There are a lot of threads from current and past members who have documented very well their outcomes.

Sooo... pour the wine and start reading! After that, post questions that you did not find the answers to. Warning, all of us have seen many of the questions that can be answered by reading. If you post a question that
we all know you can easily find Within umpteen number of solid threads, you will be less likely to receive feedback. So far you are doing great though!

[Dee1958]

That is also my question discus come from the amazon along with close to 3,000 other species but everyone seems to make a big deal about discus, do daily water changes, bare bottom, no plants, tetras come from the same waters and whose changing their water every day, discus have plants in nature, and whose draining the amazon every day and wiping down the sides of the bank. Dee

[pastry]

Dee, I used to think the same way. Two things though:

1. Discus (IMO) look even more majestic when hitting max growth. (Remember though, I'm a planted tank guy... I'm sure mine could be much bigger if in a bare bottom).

2. I've noticed other species (from not just Amazon but anywhere) get bigger and more brilliant when kept to the standards that discus keepers follow. Not as noticeable with smaller species (e.g., smaller tetras). The Amazon is an ecosystem (and water changing machine!) That we cannot match. Well there are aquatic plants within it, most of the plants you see are really submerged plants, shrubs, and trees that are used to being on dry land and make it through the wet season submerged. I still like using plants due to color contrast.

[Willie]

I'm one of those bare bottom guys. After butting heads many, many times, I've come to realize it's really a matter of your objective. I see three objectives for discus keepers:

#1. Nice community tank with plants and substrate. (Not an authentic discus biotope, but I accept people just want to have a nice looking tank.)
#2. Specimen tank. No compromise, just the best looking fish.
#3. Breeding tank. No compromise. Maximize the chance for spawn to survive.

We all started with #1. I've done #3. Now I just focus on #2. Great food, heavy water changes, cull ruthlessly. It's a beauty contest and only the best get to stay. Obviously that doesn't work if the objective is either #1 or #3.

If your focus is #1, just understand that it's a compromise. The tank conditions will be suboptimal for both discus, other fish and the plants. Having said that, there are lots of things going for #1. Usually the spouse doesn't complain. You also get total freedom to add whatever you want to the tank. Finally, discus coloration is deepened with foliage in the background. But you will not achieve #2 or #3. As long as the focus is clear, you'll be successful. Some people expect to achieve all three objectives. We call these people newbies.

So good luck on whichever approach you choose to take, Willie

P.S. Discus fry will not survive in anything but a bare bottom tank. That's the real mistake most new hobbyists make.

[pastry]

Love this!

"... it's really a matter of your objective"

[Dee1958]

I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee

[pitdogg2]

I was able to grow very large plants in my 75gal. Discus tanks. I planted in clay pots and had a bare bottom tank. Anubias and large swords were my plants. Of course i had already been raising multitudes of fish for decades so my husbandry of tanks was well honed. My fish laid eggs multiple times a month and I had free swimmers often. BUT if you are after spawning and raising fry to adulthood this is no way near the optimum way to go about it.

[modealings]

I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee

The way I came to understand it is as follows. Discus are RIVER fish. Meaning there are millions of gallons of fresh, acidic water constantly flowing in their natural environment. Our tanks are far from rivers - clean ponds at best. In addition, most of us don’t have the low pH to keep bacteria levels low. Therefore the best bet is a bare bottom tank with heavy water changes to at least try to recreate these river conditions.

It can be either disheartening or enlightening, but I think the true issue is we are trying to keep river fish in home made ponds (aquariums).

[Willie]

I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee

We don't need to fight about this. Regardless of how one feels about planted vs barebottom tanks, I can tell you that fry will not grow into adult discus in a planted tank.

Willie

[discuspaul]

The way I came to understand it is as follows. Discus are RIVER fish. Meaning there are millions of gallons of fresh, acidic water constantly flowing in their natural environment. Our tanks are far from rivers - clean ponds at best. In addition, most of us don’t have the low pH to keep bacteria levels low. Therefore the best bet is a bare bottom tank with heavy water changes to at least try to recreate these river conditions.

It can be either disheartening or enlightening, but I think the true issue is we are trying to keep river fish in home made ponds (aquariums).


This is a very good commentary to explain away why we need to do what we say needs to be done to raise discus successfully in a box-sized aquarium environment vs. the natural Amazon tributaries conditions.
Think about it.

[Kwiege]

This is exactly why I don’t post alot. Disputes on what to do and how to do it. Everyone that has discus fish encounter many different water types, filtration, water changes, etc....please give advise that is not putting down the newer person joining the site. Not everyone has options as many of the mentors do on this site as far as space, time etc...I totally enjoy reading and looking at all the new pictures and stories of the new enthusiasts that have decided on trying to keep this fish. Yes, it is challenging but I love these fish and personally do whatever I can to keep them healthy and happy. No one wants sick fish. Just think before you comment to posts. Try to be positive:o

[Second Hand Pat]

I love a good debate just so long as no gets mad and kicks me out of the club and I'm even more confused about discus then ever now you're telling me fry cannot survive unless they have a bare bottom tank so now I'm imaging the amazon with a pristine glass bottom and ceramic breeding cones, the research I've done says discus breed on plant leaves mainly swords and I know for a fact that fry will survive in a planted tank and if I could get my pictures to post I could show you. Dee

Dee, your pictures need to be 2MBs or less to upload. Would love to see your fry in a planted tank.
Pat

[bluelagoon]

Most of those plants seen in the Amazon water ways are mostly terrestrial and not aquatic. Simply the Amazon floods in the rainy season causing this. Usually their environment is trees, logs and murky, but clean water. Not a clear looking planted tank like we admire.

[slicksta]

I too admire planted aquariums but after doing much reading its not for me at this point as the complications require more effort and I'm just not willing to commit.
That said the barebottem extremist make me laugh as they preach its the only right way to keep discus. I've successfully kept discus for years in a community tank with driftwood, sand and some fake plants. Have I had a loss here and there... Sure. But no more than I read on here that the barebottem people have. And unlike them I haven't used the onslaught of meds often recommended on here.
On the related topic to the bb'ers is their never ending quest for the perfect shape, sized and patterned fish. As with overbred so called pure breed dogs, they are creating a nice looking animal that have a weak and compromised gene pool. That combined with a sterile environment leads to a weak immune system and the fish that are being produced can only survive in a similar sterile environment.

Ok... That's my 2 cent rant :-D

[Dee1958]

Dee, your pictures need to be 2MBs or less to upload. Would love to see your fry in a planted tank.
Pat
Pat I'm not real techy but I will give it another shot. Dee

[pastry]

I haven't really seen anything that points out any sort of heated debate (maybe a few minor comments). Dear God we've seen enough of those on this topic before. But I never want to shy away from this subject because I really do want to always learn any breakthroughs on keeping discus in substrate and planted tanks.

I hesitated joining this latest thread but due to my interest in having a healthy discussion unlike how previous discussions on this topic turned out + I might have had a few cocktails for some liquid motivation:antlers:

I have had fry born in my community tank and grow up. Only a few but because I only do two water changes a week at 65 to 70% man they really did not get as close to the discus I bought from sponsors on here of which I received when they were anywheres from 2 and a half inches to 4 and 1/2 in. So of course I proved to myself with my own water change routine that mine would not grow as well as a bare bottom. I have certainly scene and witnessed firsthand a few who have grown some Giants in planted tanks which the same fish were born in that tank but realistically there was only one tank and that hobbyist used well water of which to this day I swear is the Fountain of Youth! That water should certainly go to a lab to be dissected to see why the hell it grows anything and everything as big as it does. I filled a few jugs up myself to see if it made anything else bigger:eek:

[Rolla P]

With a light sprinkle of peppering of course.

https://i.imgur.com/ITTOZUS.jpg

When I made this thread asking for a definition it wasn't based specifically on the debates I had seen here. More so the debate I had seen everywhere... First and foremost I have a lot of respect for everyone on both sides of this issue. Your thoughts and your postings really is a wealth of knowledge and part of the reason I can approach keeping this species with some confidence. That said, from the outside looking in stumbling across this debate can seem like a minefield. I genuinely didn't have a clue as to why there were opposing sides with some vehemently (again not here specifically but around the hobbyist sections of the web) saying it shouldn't even be considered.

I hold my hand up super high and say that personally I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of you are when it comes to discus. But once the argument was been laid out in it's pure form I must admit to feeling some confidence. There are so many ways around the issue of dirt and detritus collecting and causing problems. From the type of plants used through to the aqua scape itself.

Watching the Discus interact with the planted setup, watching them dance, play and swim in and among the plants isn't a sight I'd give up willingly. I have been video documenting the "journey" so to speak and will share that with you all in the next two weeks or so. I think a distinction should be made between those with knowledge in the planted tank arena those that don't. I mean, I'm far from a planted expert but on the other hand still experienced enough to attempt to build a planted tank around the species.

[Pices]

I'm one of those bare bottom guys. After butting heads many, many times, I've come to realize it's really a matter of your objective. I see three objectives for discus keepers:

#1. Nice community tank with plants and substrate. (Not an authentic discus biotope, but I accept people just want to have a nice looking tank.)
#2. Specimen tank. No compromise, just the best looking fish.
#3. Breeding tank. No compromise. Maximize the chance for spawn to survive.

We all started with #1. I've done #3. Now I just focus on #2. Great food, heavy water changes, cull ruthlessly. It's a beauty contest and only the best get to stay. Obviously that doesn't work if the objective is either #1 or #3.

If your focus is #1, just understand that it's a compromise. The tank conditions will be suboptimal for both discus, other fish and the plants. Having said that, there are lots of things going for #1. Usually the spouse doesn't complain. You also get total freedom to add whatever you want to the tank. Finally, discus coloration is deepened with foliage in the background. But you will not achieve #2 or #3. As long as the focus is clear, you'll be successful. Some people expect to achieve all three objectives. We call these people newbies.

So good luck on whichever approach you choose to take, Willie

P.S. Discus fry will not survive in anything but a bare bottom tank. That's the real mistake most new hobbyists make.


Very well put Willie. It’s this kind of input that makes this such a great thread.
Patty

[Pices]

The way I came to understand it is as follows. Discus are RIVER fish. Meaning there are millions of gallons of fresh, acidic water constantly flowing in their natural environment. Our tanks are far from rivers - clean ponds at best. In addition, most of us don’t have the low pH to keep bacteria levels low. Therefore the best bet is a bare bottom tank with heavy water changes to at least try to recreate these river conditions.

It can be either disheartening or enlightening, but I think the true issue is we are trying to keep river fish in home made ponds (aquariums).

I love this explanation Eric. I couldn’t have said it more eloquently.
Patty

[slicksta]

I'm one of those bare bottom guys. After butting heads many, many times, I've come to realize it's really a matter of your objective. I see three objectives for discus keepers:

#1. Nice community tank with plants and substrate. (Not an authentic discus biotope, but I accept people just want to have a nice looking tank.)
#2. Specimen tank. No compromise, just the best looking fish.
#3. Breeding tank. No compromise. Maximize the chance for spawn to survive.

We all started with #1. I've done #3. Now I just focus on #2. Great food, heavy water changes, cull ruthlessly. It's a beauty contest and only the best get to stay. Obviously that doesn't work if the objective is either #1 or #3.

If your focus is #1, just understand that it's a compromise. The tank conditions will be suboptimal for both discus, other fish and the plants. Having said that, there are lots of things going for #1. Usually the spouse doesn't complain. You also get total freedom to add whatever you want to the tank. Finally, discus coloration is deepened with foliage in the background. But you will not achieve #2 or #3. As long as the focus is clear, you'll be successful. Some people expect to achieve all three objectives. We call these people newbies.

So good luck on whichever approach you choose to take, Willie

P.S. Discus fry will not survive in anything but a bare bottom tank. That's the real mistake most new hobbyists make.

I'm always amazed at the bravado of those who feel free to exploit another species on the planet.
It's bad enough what we do with our food supply but at least with that you can argue that the intent is nobile.
But to do it for perceived beauty and perfection that has no basis in science is inexcusable

You broke my heart Willie. . . You broke my heart. . .

123949

[Dee1958]

With a light sprinkle of peppering of course.

https://i.imgur.com/ITTOZUS.jpg

When I made this thread asking for a definition it wasn't based specifically on the debates I had seen here. More so the debate I had seen everywhere... First and foremost I have a lot of respect for everyone on both sides of this issue. Your thoughts and your postings really is a wealth of knowledge and part of the reason I can approach keeping this species with some confidence. That said, from the outside looking in stumbling across this debate can seem like a minefield. I genuinely didn't have a clue as to why there were opposing sides with some vehemently (again not here specifically but around the hobbyist sections of the web) saying it shouldn't even be considered.

I hold my hand up super high and say that personally I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of you are when it comes to discus. But once the argument was been laid out in it's pure form I must admit to feeling some confidence. There are so many ways around the issue of dirt and detritus collecting and causing problems. From the type of plants used through to the aqua scape itself.

Watching the Discus interact with the planted setup, watching them dance, play and swim in and among the plants isn't a sight I'd give up willingly. I have been video documenting the "journey" so to speak and will share that with you all in the next two weeks or so. I think a distinction should be made between those with knowledge in the planted tank arena those that don't. I mean, I'm far from a planted expert but on the other hand still experienced enough to attempt to build a planted tank around the species.
Beautiful , that's what I,m talking about Dee

[Dee1958]

Pat I'm not real techy but I will give it another shot. Dee



Bazinga, my planted tank with fry123950[AT123951123952TACH]123950[/ATTACH]

[Dee1958]

I'm always amazed at the bravado of those who feel free to exploit another species on the planet.
It's bad enough what we do with our food supply but at least with that you can argue that the intent is nobile.
But to do it for perceived beauty and perfection that has no basis in science is inexcusable

You broke my heart Willie. . . You broke my heart. . .

123949

I agree, and some people are forever NEWBIES

[pastry]

Dee, sorry sorry. I haven't read back through all the post but were those fry born in there? Can you keep this thread going as they grow and provide pictures? I did that on my tank for over a year ( original discs were not born in there but got them when they were as small as an inch... 3 from another sponsor were introduced at the same time and they were about 2.5 inches). Had one pair raise fry in tank successfully (successfully defined as reaching adult hood in tank... But bad WC regime during that time kept it from reaching any size... I was going through full time job, newborn kids, and masters program at night).

[mbruizer187]

Think the point some are missing is not that you can not get one fry to survive in a planted tank but that if you are even attempting to have fry, why would you not want as many of them to live as possible? When my fish lay eggs, I want all 100+ of them to survive, little difficult to observe and catch a problem of fry dying in one of the planted tanks posted. So it is more about what you want not what others think. If 1-2 of 100 fry is acceptable to you then that is your prerogative. Please lets not go with the AMAZON debate unless your willing to run your hose 24/7 in your planted discus tank then give the results.124014
PS These are what I would consider fry.
Thanks,
Rich

[slicksta]

And what may I ask are you doing with 100 fry?
Are you culling all but the roundest largest fish?
Or are you running your hose 24/7 to keep them all happy

[mbruizer187]

I will see when I get them to a good size and go from there, I am not in a planted tank, nor comparing my tank to the Amazon so no need to run my hose 24/7, I do however vacuum after every feeding and do 1 water change a day. Pretty sure this thread was about planted tanks, not culling fish though!
Thanks,
Rich

[slicksta]

And I don't believe anyone said that a planted tank was optimal for raising the most fry. But like you said, it depends what your desired end result is.
If you're looking to only gain a few fish and let a more natural selection process take place then what's the problem with planted.
If you're goal is to raise as many as possible then kill all that don't meet your standards... Then by all means, please proceed.

[mbruizer187]

I agree, so don't know what your getting at. I am stating that one person needs and concerns don't work for what others that don't share their views are doing. So to say that they don't know why people preach they have to use BB and change water all the time when the Amazon has plant and doesn't change its water every day but discus live and breed there, or that they think they can grow fry in a planted tank and don't see why people say you cant. Well to me you cant, but that is because I want more than 1 to survive, to you they can cause you don't mind getting 1/100. what ever works for you. And by you I don't mean you(slicksta)

[slicksta]

My current breeding pair are in a bb.
And I'm not agreeing with the statements made by (banned)
My point is that those that say bb is the ONLY way, are those that have a different perspective then me on fish keeping.

[mbruizer187]

I agree, its not the only way, but I do believe that for newcomers it is the only way to know what you are doing wrong without having 100 other factors to think about(makes impossible to know what is affecting your fish). Then when you have experience knowing your discus fish, do what you like. Saves on the thousands of help sick fish posts! I believe we should get to know any species of fish we intend to keep, and what like to thrive. people just seem to get more upset when the fish cost a little more then they want all the help seeing what they are doing wrong. I admit I am guilty of some of the same things but have learned and changed some.
Thanks
Rich

[mbruizer187]

124015

[slicksta]

I can agree with that. .
Nice group of fry there, good luck. . . though the parent is a little big eyed. My current male breeder is guilty of the same. lol :-D
But my thoughts also lean towards letting natural selection have some role in what fish survive. If we let fish breed a little more the way we keep them then those that survive will be better suited.
Again not advocating breeding fish that will survive in a swamp but a sterile environment can be counter productive in my view. I'm thinking a lower survival rate with less culling for perceived beauty may result in a more robust fish better suited for the environment in which we provide.
If you read any of my other rants. . you'll realize I'm in the minority. . .so what the hell do I know.

[pastry]

Think the point some are missing is not that you can not get one fry to survive in a planted tank but that if you are even attempting to have fry, why would you not want as many of them to live as possible? When my fish lay eggs, I want all 100+ of them to survive, little difficult to observe and catch a problem of fry dying in one of the planted tanks posted. So it is more about what you want not what others think. If 1-2 of 100 fry is acceptable to you then that is your prerogative. Please lets not go with the AMAZON debate unless your willing to run your hose 24/7 in your planted discus tank then give the results.124014
PS These are what I would consider fry.
Thanks,
Rich

Rich, like someone pointed out, its what's the goal. I set the bar low so I'm never Dissapointed :antlers:

I don't want many to survive (only 1 or 2 if any) because my wife won't let me have another tank. So I understock my 150 in case 1 or 2 make it. Now, when that has happened it's been bad timing since my work life interfered and those few fish SUCKED in regards to development. I just leave my fish alone... however (guilty!)b when I see a pair spawn and try to raise fry I always root for them ... but I don't interfere (ok, I did once with a mesh net divider contraption).

I just hate saying all that because newbies to discus may think, "Well hell, I can get by without BB. I've kept fish for years," but then they never learn how beautiful discus can be and see their full potential.

So I'm with you, Rich, but I have my own intent while also realizing the implications. I only talked about my imperfections so may be someone who has an improvement discovery on substrate, planted, and Driftwood aquariums with discus might not be hesitant to share on here.

[RogueDiscus]

"If we let fish breed a little more the way we keep them then those that survive will be better suited."

How do we keep them? We keep the water clean, we cultivate beneficial bacteria cultures, we do our best to allow as many as possible to survive, but when deformities exist, we cull. We pick and choose desired traits from those that survive. I think the Amazon does the same. Even if someone chooses to cull more for a specific goal, to suggest that you can raise discus in a tank in a way that allows for more natural selection I think is wrong. If you're willing to accept 12 or less fish surviving from a spawn in a certain environment, go ahead. I have. You may get one or two nice fish. If you're trying to raise a quantity of healthy fish in tanks, I think folks have figured that out pretty well.

[slicksta]

Of course if your goal is quantity and especially if you're in the trade you need to do it as efficiently and bountiful as possible.
I was under the assumption we were talking about hobiest breeding for their own pleasure and stock... So I think it is doable and maybe with some added benefit.
Like mentioned earlier, my current pair are bb.

[Second Hand Pat]

Actually this thread is way off topic :)
Pat

[slicksta]

Actually this thread is way off topic :)
Pat

You're the moderator... lol
You should know better than to leave us unattended this long.
Poor Rolla... Probably decided to keep a pet rock after all this.

[pastry]

You're the moderator... lol
You should know better than to leave us unattended this long.
Poor Rolla... Probably decided to keep a pet rock after all this.

Agree, I blame this all on Pat :p

[RogueDiscus]

Of course if your goal is quantity and especially if you're in the trade you need to do it as efficiently and bountiful as possible.
I was under the assumption we were talking about hobiest breeding for their own pleasure and stock... So I think it is doable and maybe with some added benefit.
Like mentioned earlier, my current pair are bb.

I'm about as small time a hobby breeder as they come. I still try to keep conditions as good as possible.

[slicksta]

I'm about as small time a hobby breeder as they come. I still try to keep conditions as good as possible.


I'm telling Pat on you!

[Sturiosoma]

Think the point some are missing is not that you can not get one fry to survive in a planted tank but that if you are even attempting to have fry, why would you not want as many of them to live as possible? When my fish lay eggs, I want all 100+ of them to survive, little difficult to observe and catch a problem of fry dying in one of the planted tanks posted. So it is more about what you want not what others think. If 1-2 of 100 fry is acceptable to you then that is your prerogative. Please lets not go with the AMAZON debate unless your willing to run your hose 24/7 in your planted discus tank then give the results.124014
PS These are what I would consider fry.
Thanks,
Rich

Is that your fish with fry and when will they be available for sale

Jeanne

[Sturiosoma]

No worries

Jeanne Dee