Am I the only one bothered by this. . .

[slicksta]

I'm absolutely disgusted by the way these fish are being bred into something that look more and more fake and unnatural all whilst the strain names are becoming more and more exotic and the prices increase.
Ruby Spider-Face Leopard Snakeskin... Give me an $%&# break!
Seriously do we need to destroy everything nature created?

[Willie]

... more and more fake and unnatural ...

All strains are fake. We keep inbred fish in a glass box.

Willie :D

[slicksta]

But my question is does it have to be that way or can we enjoy them as they are?

[LizStreithorst]

It's always been this way with Discus. I think that most of us have just come to accept it as a part of life.

[RogueDiscus]

I remember buying some of my first discus online from he-who-shall-not-be-named with names like Siamese Red Dragon or something similar for a turk. Seems hilarious now.

[Adam S]

Appearance is whatever. We have access to everything from wilds to probably 50th+ generation line bred fish.

I dislike silly or misleading names too ("super red" bristlenose is a stretch), but fish have to be called something.

Fish pricing is hit or miss. We're lucky to get some fish as cheaply as we do here in the US, but other countries put us to shame with their fish spending habits.

[jeep]

The names can get a little crazy at times. When I first got into the hobby before this forum was started, the only name I knew was Wattley. I looked at his web site and saw something called a Red Panda and I thought it was pretty cool looking. There was also a listing for a Blue Panda but there was no photo, but I figured if I can get a blue discus that looks like the red one, that would be awesome, so I ordered sight unseen. What I got was a pale colorless discus that eventually turned white, or more commonly called White Butterfly. I always liked them but where was the blue?? lol...

That being said, I've always liked spotted discus, but these days I'm becoming more a fan of the wilds...

[Cove Beach]

I also think the names are getting ridiculous and are often mis-leading. Especially to folks getting started in keeping these fish. The reason I started my discus tank after keeping marine tanks for years was my desire to not keep taking from the ocean anymore. Same goes for freshwater animals. For as long as fish collecting has gone on you would think that there would be enough stock in captivity to provide a big enough supply of tank bred fish that look as they do in nature. Line breeding is fine, I would truly like to see a actual green colored discus created this way. But I also love the look of the natural coloration and will eventually add some tank raised examples to my group of 15 in my display. Just my .02
Besides, my wife renames them anyway!

[slicksta]

The names and the prices are a secondary insults to me. For me the big problem is the severe inbreeding and who knows what other manipulations such as steroids, unnatural pigmentation and I'd guess a whole slew of things we don't care to know about.
I do agee that tank bred is better as to not further in danger the wild population and to perhaps naturally select genes that do better in captivity. But why are so many, and it seems the vast majority accepting and actually seeking out these abominations.
They wouldn't be the norm if less accepted them.

[Second Hand Pat]

The names and the prices are a secondary insults to me. For me the big problem is the severe inbreeding and who knows what other manipulations such as steroids, unnatural pigmentation and I'd guess a whole slew of things we don't care to know about.
I do agee that tank bred is better as to not further in danger the wild population and to perhaps naturally select genes that do better in captivity. But why are so many, and it seems the vast majority accepting and actually seeking out these abominations.
They wouldn't be the norm if less accepted them.

Hey John, if you do not care for the domestic strains do you keep discus at all? Pictures? Everyone is free to like or dislike the current situation with discus or any other domestic animal for that manner.
Pat

[slicksta]

Of course all are free to do as they please. . . my question was are you offended by the ever escalating severity in which discus are being manipulated from their natural state.

If you ask me what we have done to our best friend with inbreeding them to the point of genetically inferior strains is sad.
Not the best article but you get the point: https://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_dg_purebred_dogs_complications

[Second Hand Pat]

John, the ones I do not care for are the bulldogs. A few years ago the "bulldog" became the rage and suddenly many lines had that bulldog look :vomit:. This has less prevalent thank goodness.
Pat

[fishbubbles]

Is your main complaint against inbreeding discus or creating different varieties of domestics? I ask because you just posted a pic of a pigeon blood and turq combo with fry in your tank.

[slicksta]

@ Pat
If you do a quick google search you will see that many to most of pure_breed dog strains have a multitude of health issues

@ Kevin
Please reread as I believe I was clear. If I had a pair of the same strain I would not let them breed in search of the uber version.

[Second Hand Pat]

@ Pat
If you do a quick google search you will see that many to most of pure_breed dog strains have a multitude of health issues


I was referring to Bulldog discus John.
Pat

[slicksta]

@ Pat
ooopps. . . my bad.
But that is a good example for the reason for this thread.
Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But in order to make a gene so predominant I feel we sacrifice more important traits.

[Second Hand Pat]

@ Pat
ooopps. . . my bad.
But that is a good example for the reason for this thread.
Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But in order to make a gene so predominant I feel we sacrifice more important traits.

and that example was based on a deformity. I am super happy to being seeing a lot less that. John, you can talk about this until you are blue in the face but there is lots of examples of both good breeding and bad breeding in most domestic animals. In the end it is the demand which drives the market.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

John, you can talk about this until you are blue in the face but there is lots of examples of both good breeding and bad breeding in most domestic animals. In the end it is the demand which drives the market.
Pat

I believe that I said just that in different works earlier in this thread.

[slicksta]

Exactly!!!. . .it's the demand.
And that's why we are here. . to discuss discus. I realize I am not going to change anyone's mind and my post was just to get a consensus on the subject.
So Pat I don't believe you answered the question. Are you bothered by this?

[slicksta]

I believe that I said just that in different works earlier in this thread.

Yes Liz. . .but there are more members than you and Pat. I wasn't looking for a debate but more or less a consensus if this bothered anyone.

[Second Hand Pat]

Exactly!!!. . .it's the demand.
And that's why we are here. . to discuss discus. I realize I am not going to change anyone's mind and my post was just to get a consensus on the subject.
So Pat I don't believe you answered the question. Are you bothered by this?

I believe I did :D ...as far as the strains names go I do not really care. After you have been around the block or two you know what the fish should be called. ;)
Pat

[slicksta]

Ok I'll take it as it doesn't bother you, or at least not to the extent that it bothers me.
As far as the names I'm with you on that. I don't care for myself but it bothers me for beginners.
That said... Interested in some Blue Turquoise Double Pepper'd Pigeon Blood Extremes ��

[Second Hand Pat]

Ok I'll take it as it doesn't bother you, or at least not to the extent that it bothers me.
As far as the names I'm with you on that. I don't care for myself but it bothers me for beginners.
That said... Interested in some Blue Turquoise Double Pepper'd Pigeon Blood Extremes ��

I like it, it’s catchy LOL ;)

[slicksta]

I know right... I can market it as what old is new.... That is if any survive. ;-)

[LizStreithorst]

What matters most to me is the conformation of the fish. I don't care what it's called.

[brewmaster15]

John it bothers me too. Im not a fan of fancy names. Always been a pet peeve of mine....as for the colors and strains.... they can be excessive but the reality is they are what enabled the discus hobby to grow. The color morphs, strains etc attracted fish keepers to try discus. Prior to that Discus were that odd looking brown wild fish that sometimes showed up in the petstores years ago... If it had 7stayed like that odds are there would never have even been Discus hobby as we have it today.

The way I see it is if you don't like the fancy named fish or colorful discus strains dont buy them..pick up some wilds and play with them.Maybe try breeding them.

I like Discus. Doesnt matter to me wild or Domestic. I Think its awesome how many varieties we have , and as a biologist the fluidity of their genetics fascinates me to no end. Its what has kept me hook line and sinker in the hobby for so long.

Im currently really enjoying breeding wilds to Domestics... I dont give them fancy names but from time to time I am tempted because its how marketi g works best but nope.. I try and stick with long boring descriptions like " F1 wild greenx blue snakeskin"

Am I guilty.of adding to.the problem with these crosses ..maybe. But I really dont care if people like it or them. I do what I want with my hobby. If theres no demand... doesnt bother me

Ramble done... I think pics are important when you have discussions like this..

Are these fish bad? Because they are a "gasp" cross. How dare I !.These are my f1 wild greenx Domestic Snakeskins. Some would say so... good thing I dont care what others think all the much with my fish and my breeding goals.

Im happy with them.
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Al

[brewmaster15]

I do have these Super Dupper Star Mazes... first generation SDSM to be precise that I just bred and created though.:)

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[slicksta]

Thanks Al
The names are a minor secondary concern and only the insult to the injury.
My reason for the post is that I see more and more unnatural looking fish.
If you breed and cross breed... Great.. if you can develop a new strain. Even better for you.
But what I see is breeding and then perpetual inbreeding and manipulation to the point that the fish look fake.
I guess my hope was that more would be offended by that.
The older I get the more I think that everything humans touch becomes broken... and I start to feel like Edward G. Robinson at the end of Soylent Green

That said let me know when you're ready to part with some of your wild/domestics

[LizStreithorst]

Good fish, Al. All of them.

[slicksta]

I was referring to Bulldog discus John.
Pat

I just came across this on fb and I thought of my misunderstanding
I guess I wasn't that wrong after all 😂

Sorry.... But now you know the maturity level you're dealing with

[bluelagoon]

All domestic discus have one thing in common. They're all mutts, so to speak; no matter what we name the strain..The bulldog discus is got to be worst of this example from a deformed cull. Who would want them in their breeding program? and why would they even want to breed such a deformed fish. There's money in odd looking things.

[gators111]

I agree in part that breeders should take care that the hobby is maintained or strengthened by making sure excessive inbreeding is prevented, inasmuch that the overall genetic strength of the domestic strains are able to withstand disease and are healthy. Mollys, platys, and swordtails had this problem in the past (and maybe still do today, not sure). But my gripe is the bazillion names various sellers pull out of their hind-ends. Some org like the ACA, NADA, or whatever needs to sit down and at least set down some of the strains. And just because one stripe or a couple of dots don't express themselves in a couple of offspring, doesn't mean that that fish isn't a red checkerboard instead of a whatever. I think it sows confusion and allows for unscrupulous sellers to take advantage of beginners in the hobby, thereby affecting the growth of the hobby.

[LizStreithorst]

NADA does that in their break up of classes, but NADA doesn't rule the world.

The breeders breed for the mass market. What people want is their bread and butter.

[snxtif]

Soon you'd hear something like "Ninja dragon super rocket tesla pigeon blood"

[14Discus]

Interesting discussion. The neat thing abt this hobby is one can go in any direction he or she pleases......wild or non wild color strain. What dictates direction??.......money, of course. I agree that the naming thing has gone crazy.

There are a few points regarding your original concern. The color breeding has done a few good things to the hobby.
It has sparked interest because of the variety. This is also very true in the koi fish arena. Koi of many years ago were not so varied or available as they are today. They, too, are bred for various color patterns. And yes, they too, have many many color pattern names. My koi pond is full of bred color patterns which I much enjoy. My Discus tanks are full of bred color varieties which I much enjoy.
It has provided color options for fresh water fish with saltwater-like fish colors.
It has produced fish with less restrictive water needs. For example, extensively bred color fish are much more able to be kept in tanks with higher pHs as compared to wilds. Many years ago, people would steer clear
of Discus because the water requirements were so demanding. This is an important improvement imo.

I find the bred color varieties of these fish to be awesome, but surely respect those who choose to go in the purist direction. Some of the bred fish are weird.....not for me, but again, $ $ $.

Pictured are a few color bred fish that blow me away. Wilds are gorgeous too, but because of the variety, my tank fish are an array of color swimming in water that is less restrictive than the days of old. One of my favorites is the (here we go again with the naming thing) Red Eagle.

While I agree abt the naming thing going “off the scale”, I’m darn glad the breeders have created such beautiful strains with higher tolerances of varying pH.

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[slicksta]

@14D
Thank you for your comments... as I do agree..
Breeding of discus is a good thing and has led to fish that are better adapted to a wider range of aquarium conditions, and for that I am thankful. And as for appearance, I'll always have a Pigeon Blood in my tank. I also think that tank bred helps keep the wild population protected.
My problem is with what I am seeing being offered lately which in my opinion I consider irresponsible inbreeding and other manipulations such as steroids and hormones that are creating unnatural looking fish.
Everything has its limits or can be taken to far. I fear we are headed down the path to creatures like a florescent discus... Think of the poor Parrot fish.

[brewmaster15]

@14D
Thank you for your comments... as I do agree..
Breeding of discus is a good thing and has led to fish that are better adapted to a wider range of aquarium conditions, and for that I am thankful. And as for appearance, I'll always have a Pigeon Blood in my tank. I also think that tank bred helps keep the wild population protected.
My problem is with what I am seeing being offered lately which in my opinion I consider irresponsible inbreeding and other manipulations such as steroids and hormones that are creating unnatural looking fish.
Everything has its limits or can be taken to far. I fear we are headed down the path to creatures like a florescent discus... Think of the poor Parrot fish.

John,
Does that mean I can not put you down for 10 of these...


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http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?134403-FInally-succeeded-in-creating-a-new-line!

al

[brewmaster15]

I think I am well on my way with this strain John... the shape is phenomenal.

Just snapped a shot of the latest batch of my Unicorn Discus... these things are selling like you would not believe. I cant breed enough to cover demand! :)
124046

Al

[slicksta]

10?!?!
I'll take the entire tank!! ... The parents!! ... And the bottle of hydrochloric acid!!
OK if I call them Golden Double Ruby Princess Unicorn Eruptions?
That particular one I'll call Squiggy

[brewmaster15]

Once you own them John you can call them whatever you want and even resell them. Afterall,its done all the time;)

Al

[slicksta]

Jack Whatley said... If it's in my tank, it's a Whatley Discus

[brewmaster15]

Well well.. i got me some Brew Discus I guess :)

[FishFanMan]

That snakeskin that the OP is referring to is one gorgeous discus. Would love to buy it but having hard time handing over $390! That breeder must have spent considerable time and effort to create such a specimen. The name is a mouthful but perhaps it describes the fish accurately? I certainly would not know though. Maybe we should standardize the naming based on displayed traits, something like IUPAC lol! Yes, prices are getting really high but I think this particular guy is show quality.

[Thursty]

This is a very interesting discussion. It does seem to have a few misconceptions cropping up along with what I'd consider misguided opinions.

As for wild discus. I've been out with the discus collectors on the Nanay in Peru. I've seen plenty of videos. One thing that I can tell you for sure is that discus are very difficult to collect; they're not reducing the wild population no matter how hard they try. The other thing is that those rivers are much larger than you imagine them to be. The Nanay is nearly as big as the Mississippi so even if you are capturing a major portion of the population in several square miles there is still a huge habitat out there that isn't being touched. The Nanay is actually one of the smaller rivers where discus are collected so that tells you that there are plenty more in those other rivers. The Nanay population is actually a feral population of green discus that are doing very well there despite the collection. So there's no moral high ground for not buying wild caught discus. As far as crossing wild fish with domestic, I fully support it and I think others should too. Getting that wild vigor into domestic strains will only improve them.
So then that leads to inbreeding. Fish are much more tolerant of inbreeding than most other vertebrates. This seems to vary from species to species but for the most part inbreeding is not much of a problem. That is until you start getting into the deformities such as the bulldog, boomerang and football shaped discus. I just can't deal with those. The unicorn discus pictured earlier in the thread may not necessarily be due to genetics; sometimes these deformities are developmental, environmental in nature. When we refer to hybrids; most of our discus are not hybrids unless they have Heckel discus in their background and some will even debate that. Even if you consider the subspecies classification to be valid; a cross between subspecies isn't a hybrid and certainly crosses between strains is not a hybrid.
As far as strain names go; breeders are going to come up with names as a marketing ploy. I remember back in the 70s when small "blue face" discus were quite the rage; when all they were were hormone fed brown discus. Thankfully there isn't as much hormone treatment going on as there used to be because we have strains that show color early in life. Unfortunately it still goes on and one local dealer told me that his Malaysian supplier charges him extra for discus that have NOT been hormone treated.
Anyway, the things that get me annoyed (not outraged) are hormone treatments, deformities being sold as strains and decrying wild caught discus as being somehow immoral. Strain names will come and go but if you go by what you see you can tell that something sold as a super brilliant red sterling turquoise is nothing different from what someone else would sell as a turquoise and heaven only knows if they will breed true or not until you get their offspring.

[LizStreithorst]

What people call hybrid Discus has always griped me. The fact is that a true hybrid is a cross between 2 species and the offspring are infertile. My large white *** was a cross between a mare an a donkey. He was a hybrid.

[Sturiosoma]

I think I am well on my way with this strain John... the shape is phenomenal.

Just snapped a shot of the latest batch of my Unicorn Discus... these things are selling like you would not believe. I cant breed enough to cover demand! :)
124046

Al

Ok now that's not right

Jeanne

[pastry]

Now one GIANT step further... did some entity purposely mettle with the creation of Homo Sapiens? :alien::angel::crazy:

[slicksta]

This is a very interesting discussion. It does seem to have a few misconceptions cropping up along with what I'd consider misguided opinions.

As for wild discus. I've been out with the discus collectors on the Nanay in Peru. I've seen plenty of videos. One thing that I can tell you for sure is that discus are very difficult to collect; they're not reducing the wild population no matter how hard they try. The other thing is that those rivers are much larger than you imagine them to be. The Nanay is nearly as big as the Mississippi so even if you are capturing a major portion of the population in several square miles there is still a huge habitat out there that isn't being touched. The Nanay is actually one of the smaller rivers where discus are collected so that tells you that there are plenty more in those other rivers. The Nanay population is actually a feral population of green discus that are doing very well there despite the collection. So there's no moral high ground for not buying wild caught discus. As far as crossing wild fish with domestic, I fully support it and I think others should too. Getting that wild vigor into domestic strains will only improve them.
So then that leads to inbreeding. Fish are much more tolerant of inbreeding than most other vertebrates. This seems to vary from species to species but for the most part inbreeding is not much of a problem. That is until you start getting into the deformities such as the bulldog, boomerang and football shaped discus. I just can't deal with those. The unicorn discus pictured earlier in the thread may not necessarily be due to genetics; sometimes these deformities are developmental, environmental in nature. When we refer to hybrids; most of our discus are not hybrids unless they have Heckel discus in their background and some will even debate that. Even if you consider the subspecies classification to be valid; a cross between subspecies isn't a hybrid and certainly crosses between strains is not a hybrid.
As far as strain names go; breeders are going to come up with names as a marketing ploy. I remember back in the 70s when small "blue face" discus were quite the rage; when all they were were hormone fed brown discus. Thankfully there isn't as much hormone treatment going on as there used to be because we have strains that show color early in life. Unfortunately it still goes on and one local dealer told me that his Malaysian supplier charges him extra for discus that have NOT been hormone treated.
Anyway, the things that get me annoyed (not outraged) are hormone treatments, deformities being sold as strains and decrying wild caught discus as being somehow immoral. Strain names will come and go but if you go by what you see you can tell that something sold as a super brilliant red sterling turquoise is nothing different from what someone else would sell as a turquoise and heaven only knows if they will breed true or not until you get their offspring.

Thank you for your feedback as more opinions can help enlighten us all.
I do feel a little differently on some of the details though. Yes the wild population is not in danger, but I disagree on the reason. It's not because discus are difficult to catch, it's because there is not a market for them. I feel this is largely due to the fact that discus are more economically bred in captivity and that domestics have been bred to be more colorful. Humans have shown time and time again that when $$$ is the motivation we easily find a way to do much harm. I have no problem with responsible harvesting and am thankful that the current situation is what it is. But if you consider this taking the moral high ground, I'll take it as a compliment because bringing a species to the point of endangerment is a bit beyond the point at which we should have concern.

As for inbreeding... I'm curious, how did you form the opinion that fish are more tolerant?
Your own statement "Getting that wild vigor into domestic strains will only improve them" sheds light on an the well established fact that inbreeding is detrimental to evolution and not mother nature's design.
Do we have to wait for the point that we see exaggerated physical dreformaties before we realize that inbreeding is not a good practice for any species. K9's are an excellent example of this. When first bred their abilities and intelligence were the desired traits. Once our focus turned to their physical appearance we created a sad feeble ailment prone creatures with a shorter life span ... and for what?... so that we can prance them around a stage and pat ourselves on the back.

As for hormones I believe that their use as well as other chemicals is becoming more prevalent. My opinion has no basis in first hand knowledge but the statement that some breeders charge more for fish raised without them or that others advertise no hormone or steroid use is alarming. And in my eyes the fish that I'm starting to see more and more of do not appear to be solely the product of breeding.
I'll add to my "outrage" by saying the way breeders are starting to display fish by hand holding them out of water or placings them in shallow water in circular patterns is just more salt in the wounds that these breeders are doing. I can get a similar display at the Fulton Fish Market
Is it so hard to display them in a more natural atmosphere where they can at least breathe easily, After all aren't we here to honor the beauty of this fish?

[Sturiosoma]

Here's an idea how about a neon discus kinda like the glo fish you see at Walmart and those are said to be all natural, I'm thinking I'll start with my heckels but what would I cross them with to get that nice neon look, I'm gonna call the strain Discus Glo

Jeanne

[Thursty]

I love what you wrote even though I have some slight disagreements. I think there is a market for wild caught discus. I recently paid a small fortune for two Rio Nanay extra red spotted greens. I bought them locally and picked out what I thought were the two best. In fact I would have bought more but I didn't think the others lived up to the price. Keeping domestic discus doesn't stop me from keeping wild caught discus but I have heard (some time ago) local dealers complaining that they can't sell a fully adult semi-royal (whatever that means), wild, blue discus for $80 because their customers will choose the adult pigeon blood for $100. I'm the sort of guy who will buy both. But OK, so the demand for wild discus probably, almost certainly isn't as high as for the domestics; it doesn't negate the fact that buying wild caught discus isn't contributing anything to the demise of the species in the wild.
My statement about fish being more tolerant of inbreeding is something that I was taught (over and over again) in college while getting a degree in fisheries biology with an emphasis in aquaculture. It not an opinion it is a fact. Hobbyists seem to have trouble getting into their heads that fish are very different from terrestrial vertebrates. You try to make your point by bringing up dogs. Dogs are not fish. Fish are very different in very many ways.
I truly have to disagree with the notion that hormones are becoming more prevalent. There was a time, back in the 70s and 80s when it was absolutely impossible buy Asian discus that were not hormone fed. These days we have strains that color up earlier in life so there is no need to treat with hormones; ergo less hormone problem than before. One thing they do though is feed color enhancing foods such as shrimp eggs that intensify the reds in discus (and clown loaches). When the fish come off those foods then the color loses its intensity. Most hobbyists don't have access to a good supply of shrimp eggs.
I agree with you about the photo business but I'm a little sympathetic in that fish are very hard to photograph. It should be easier in this day of digital cameras but the difference in light transmission through water vs. air is still a problem.

[14Discus]

You bring up some interesting thoughts.

First.....if I thought for a minute that holding a fish in the hand for a brief pic was causing harm, I’d be in complete agreement. Having a fish out of water for a brief moment does not, IMO, cause suffering at all. Last winter I had to remove a few fish from water for fin trimming. They were out on a soaking wet towel for a minute or two and then went back in showing no I’ll effects. Some of the very pictured fish in the hand from a dealer were purchased by me and they are doing great long afterwards. I do admire your concern for the well being of the fish, but feel that people do, wo meaning to, truly more harm to the fish by overfeeding, letting nitrates get too high, or too few WCs.

Breeders that I’ve read abt do introduce new stock to their operations periodically. There is surely a big enough gene pool in Asia to support all the strains being bred as I see it. True inbreeding problems stem from direct parent to offspring to offspring mating and problems for breeders would surface quickly if new genes were not brought in once in a while.

Your ideas are good for thought and warrant consideration, but I differ a bit in a few of them.

Respectfully,

[pastry]

Thursty, I love how this thread is going. My own stance (by parameters) is (1) I love the hybrids in color but not a fan of shape ... such as bulldogs, hi-bodied, or near-veil tail discus, (2) I would never want to see hybrids released into wild since I love how unassisted natural hybrids are such a cool surprise, but (3) I LOVE how cool genetics for color are with discus (as well as bettas but for some unknown reason not for others like rams... I can't explain... claiming my own taste & quirks I guess).

I do believe that hybrids are great for conservation indirectly. Like some sort of weird drug that hooks some who may not originally care but later fall in love with the whole existence of discus (or other species) and would be more sensitive to the roots those fish evolved from.

Damn, I swear I didn't smoke anything. Hope any of that makes sense to someone:antlers: keep it going!

[JamesW]

Awesome discussion with a lot of interesting points and counter points made. It is important to remember that strain naming is pretty much that only way to market new variants. If a blue turq was called, brown fish with blue squiggles and a checkerboard was called red fish with white spots they aren't going to sell. Or how to market the difference between a blue diamond, cobalt blue, flachen snakeskin. Its like having gourmet milk extract liquified on fermented crushed grain, charred to perfection vs. a grilled cheese.

Shape and health are a different issue all together and while I loved the strain Al created with the SD logo on their sides I think that breeding for malformed shape is irresponsible and akin to what happened to bulldogs and german shepherds. Fortunately for the german shepherd it seems like the breeders have made an effort to rectify the hip issues in the breed.

[slicksta]

@ Thursty
Thanks again as I appreciate the input.... I didn't know your background.. Very good on you! ;-)
I agree with what you say about the status of wilds, I'm sorry if I didn't convey that in my earlier comments.
And I also apologize if my comments about dogs weren't clear. I wasn't trying to equate dogs to fish, but more that when breeding is done responsibly it can have some benefits but when taken to extremes, especially when the motives are vanity, its been proven to be harmful. Whether a species is more tolerant becomes irrelevant when things go too far.
As far as their tolerance for inbreeding I did a quick Google "Effects of inbreeding fish" and all the documents I found stated that inbreeding should be avoided as inbreeding depression was evident. These studies did not go beyond 3 generations and were done in the aquaculture field on fish such as salmon and trout. Can you provide a link to a study that better describes what you learned in college? Google isn't always the best source.
And you very well may be correct about hormones... but something is being done. Or maybe it is just as I fear... Inbreeding has started to go too far. I doubt that breeders guilty of any such manipulation will confess to the fact. The only evidence that I have is what I see being posted for sale.
As for the photos, I personally don't find them more appealing or that they display a fish better than what has been done in the past. Most phones can take a fair representation of a fish in an aquarium if enough light is present. So no sympathy here from me.

@14Discus
I'll use crude analogy to demonstrate how I feel about the photos.
Say I were to penetrate you with a broom stick?
A minute later anyone that saw you would be non the wiser as you would look normal and it wouldn't alter your lifespan in any way.
Now if this was done as a medical procedure for your benefit you would probably thank me.
But what if I did it just because I likes the look on your face and I wanted to photograph it?
Respect life and proceed with care when you have zero knowledge of the stress imposed.
About 18 months ago I was in the market for a dozen or so discus. When I saw those photos I made my purchase elsewhere.
I apologize if I come across as rude but seriously it's not my intent. I'm rough around the edges, this I know... but I'm trying. ;-)
Thanks for the input!


@pastry
As to your last line... I don't believe you... LOL :-D

.... and thank you JamesW for chiming in!!

[Thursty]

Just to clarify what I wrote: Fish are more tolerant to inbreeding than other vertebrates are but that doesn't mean it is a good thing. A quick literature search found several papers that set out to prove that inbreeding is bad and so that is what they found. I did find a paper that showed that Pelvicachromis taeniatus actaully benefits from inbreeding
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17276915

and another that worked with two strains of zebra danio and took them to 13 and 16 generations of inbreeding.
https://keio.pure.elsevier.com/ja/publications/generation-of-highly-homogeneous-strains-of-zebrafish-through-ful

[slicksta]

Just to clarify what I wrote: Fish are more tolerant to inbreeding than other vertebrates are but that doesn't mean it is a good thing. A quick literature search found several papers that set out to prove that inbreeding is bad and so that is what they found. I did find a paper that showed that Pelvicachromis taeniatus actaully benefits from inbreeding
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17276915

and another that worked with two strains of zebra danio and took them to 13 and 16 generations of inbreeding.
https://keio.pure.elsevier.com/ja/publications/generation-of-highly-homogeneous-strains-of-zebrafish-through-ful


That's a very nice try... But I'm starting to think that it wasn't taught over and over.... anywhere.

The quick search does not result in studies that were out to prove inbreeding was bad so that's what they found. The studies were out to find the EFFECTS of inbreeding and inbreeding DEPRESSION is what they found.

The two links you provided are a joke
The first is NOT a study of inbreeding, it's a study of a particular cichlid and whether or not it preferred to mate with an unfamiliar sibling over an unfamiliar non sibling. That particular fish being very social I find the so called suggested results trivial. I suggest you read it slowly as often are words such as " the findings suggest"
The second is from Asia... Big Surprise. And if you read it, one of the species failed to survive

Care to give it another shot

[peewee1]

Why not use the goldfish as a comparative? For centuries longer then that of the discus, especially the Chinese, have bred goldfish into all colors and shapes that are not common to the lowly original goldfish. Perhaps if we could fast forward 200 years we would notice much the same trend for discus shapes and color. included in my last order from my go to guy, Kenny, I asked if he had a wild by chance. I began discus with raising and breeding wild. Kenny did not have wild but chose for me a beautiful male Stripe Alenquer which as you know appears something like a wild. I wondered if any strain that had basic wild left in it would naturally breed back to wild if bred with another similar again and again?What I did like about the fish that Kenny sent me is that it has long almost Angelfish like ventral fins. Much longer than the other four different varieties that were shipped in the same order. Because of hobbyists and breeders shape and color, like the goldfish, will continue to change. I do believe that there are some butt ugly goldfish...those bubble eyed are a prime example. Yet people buy them all day long.

[JamesW]

Two points:
1. Not all inbreeding leads to inbreeding depression.
2. Domestic discus strains are not inbred.

To expand:
1. Inbred, genetically homogeneous lab animals are routine, indeed all of the OTC and pharmaceutical substances humans take are predicated on the consistency, stability and health of these highly inbred animals. Rats, mice, guinea pigs, dogs, flies, and yes, fish. Many have been genetically homogeneous for 100's of generations.
I would argue that it is possible for ALL species to be successfully inbred without 'inbred depression'. The odds of success might be low for certain species but it is possible.

No doubt in generating the vast number of inbred lines of lab animals there were many attempts that were not successful, for an example see the Tübingen strain of zebra fish from the paper listed. That paper in a small way highlights the difficulty in establishing a new variety of discus. Selecting for the desired traits, while avoiding undesirable co-traits is a huge challenge and I think gives the right to the successful breeder to give whatever name they like to the strain they have established.

2. The notion that domestic discus are inbred or inbred depressed is absurd, their adaptability to various water parameters, their proven ability to successfully and robustly reproduce and raise fry, the intra-spawn variability of fry, the existence of 'show quality' and 'cull' fish in the same spawn all demonstrate the genetic diversity of domestic discus strains.

[slicksta]

Two points:
1. Not all inbreeding leads to inbreeding depression.
2. Domestic discus strains are not inbred.

To expand:
1. Inbred, genetically homogeneous lab animals are routine, indeed all of the OTC and pharmaceutical substances humans take are predicated on the consistency, stability and health of these highly inbred animals. Rats, mice, guinea pigs, dogs, flies, and yes, fish. Many have been genetically homogeneous for 100's of generations.
I would argue that it is possible for ALL species to be successfully inbred without 'inbred depression'. The odds of success might be low for certain species but it is possible.

No doubt in generating the vast number of inbred lines of lab animals there were many attempts that were not successful, for an example see the Tübingen strain of zebra fish from the paper listed. That paper in a small way highlights the difficulty in establishing a new variety of discus. Selecting for the desired traits, while avoiding undesirable co-traits is a huge challenge and I think gives the right to the successful breeder to give whatever name they like to the strain they have established.

2. The notion that domestic discus are inbred or inbred depressed is absurd, their adaptability to various water parameters, their proven ability to successfully and robustly reproduce and raise fry, the intra-spawn variability of fry, the existence of 'show quality' and 'cull' fish in the same spawn all demonstrate the genetic diversity of domestic discus strains.

1. It may be true that not ALL inbreeding leads to depression. But accepted practice is it should be avoided as much as possible. This is also a basic law of nature.
2. I never said that ALL domestics are inbred. I said that as of late, more and more the fish being offered for sale look un_natural

Why is it that many can not see the forest because of the trees. . .

[slicksta]

Why not use the goldfish as a comparative? For centuries longer then that of the discus, especially the Chinese, have bred goldfish into all colors and shapes that are not common to the lowly original goldfish. Perhaps if we could fast forward 200 years we would notice much the same trend for discus shapes and color. included in my last order from my go to guy, Kenny, I asked if he had a wild by chance. I began discus with raising and breeding wild. Kenny did not have wild but chose for me a beautiful male Stripe Alenquer which as you know appears something like a wild. I wondered if any strain that had basic wild left in it would naturally breed back to wild if bred with another similar again and again?What I did like about the fish that Kenny sent me is that it has long almost Angelfish like ventral fins. Much longer than the other four different varieties that were shipped in the same order. Because of hobbyists and breeders shape and color, like the goldfish, will continue to change. I do believe that there are some butt ugly goldfish...those bubble eyed are a prime example. Yet people buy them all day long.

The gold fish is a good example of how it can be done.... and then how it can be taken too far.
The aforementioned breeder is a really nice guy and I spoke and went back and forth with him a bit prior to my last discus purchase. He does have some nice looking fish, but then he also has fish that in my opinion fall into the category of going to far. That coupled with how he displays his fish, I made my purchase elsewhere. I'm happy he's back as I truly believe he is doing what he feels is best, it's just not the direction that I can agree with.

[Second Hand Pat]

John, that drum is getting pretty loud lol.
Pat

[slicksta]

John, that drum is getting pretty loud lol.
Pat

I'm happiest stirring the pot :-D

[JamesW]

1. It may be true that not ALL inbreeding leads to depression. But accepted practice is it should be avoided as much as possible. This is also a basic law of nature.
2. I never said that ALL domestics are inbred. I said that as of late, more and more the fish being offered for sale look un_natural

Why is it that many can not see the forest because of the trees. . .

I respectfully disagree, the accepted practice is that inbred depression should be avoided as much as possible. Inbreeding is common, and has been utilized for thousands of years for plants and animals.

If you don't like the new colors that's fine but arguing that because their colors are extreme compared to wild discus they must be irresponsibly inbred/steroided/hormone treated is a bit of a stretch.

[slicksta]

Thanks James, I too respectfully agree to disagree ;-)
And my thoughts on this could very well be a stretch, but my impression is that things are changing and not always for the better.
Mankind has often not shown restraint until we go to far.
As mentioned earlier... Look what we did to dogs when our breeding priorities focused on appearance... 'as all I sayin'

[Second Hand Pat]

Noted that lol :)

[JamesW]

OK, I'll give you dogs, specifically Brachycephalic and hip-dysplastic breeds. Only if you give me every other breed of dog including every mutt.

Do you like drought tolerant wheat? Nicely marbled meat? Frost-resistant roses? Bananas? Wine? Blue turqs? Pidgeon Bloods? If you do, then you like inbreeding too ;-)

[JamesW]

I need a bigger drum!

https://xkcd.com/386/

[slicksta]

James again... I never said that tank bred is bad or that man has never made some advances.
Seems the trees are blocking your view of the forest again

[JamesW]

Maybe I misunderstood what your original point was but I think it is captured in the quotes below


For me the big problem is the severe inbreeding and who knows what other manipulations such as steroids, unnatural pigmentation and I'd guess a whole slew of things we don't care to know about.



My problem is with what I am seeing being offered lately which in my opinion I consider irresponsible inbreeding and other manipulations such as steroids and hormones that are creating unnatural looking fish.

What evidence do you have that Kenny or his suppliers is practicing irresponsible levels of inbreeding, steroids or hormones other than because you don't like the fancy names or new color variants? I guess I was trying show that inbreeding is already common, pervasive and, saying the blue turq and pidgeon blood is OK but Golden Lollipop isn't without any evidence to show they have been irresponsibly inbred or steroid or hormone treated seems inconsistent.

I'd love to get a full understanding to the nuance of your stance. Which strains are OK and which aren't? Why?

[slicksta]

This is a pic of a fish that crossed my path on this site as an example of what I feel is too far.
I'm not going to name specific breeds because what people call fish changes daily and by breeder and some breeders seem to be more responsible than others using the same or similar names.

[LizStreithorst]

James, he's just taunting you. If he doesn't know your right it's his loss.

Slicksta, stirring the pot is a waste of time. I found out over time. I no longer stir. I do nothing until I'm totally fed up and I take the pot and trow it at someone's face. That's why I'm the Mama Bear. It can have very bad consequences. This is not worth it. James knows more that you. I suggest that you give him some respect.

[slicksta]

James, he's just taunting you. If he doesn't know your right it's his loss.

Slicksta, stirring the pot is a waste of time. I found out over time. I no longer stir. I do nothing until I'm totally fed up and I take the pot and trow it at someone's face. That's why I'm the Mama Bear. It can have very bad consequences. This is not worth it. James knows more that you. I suggest that you give him some respect.

He has my respect and I don't claim to know more than he does.
Not sure why I feel the way I do... But I do.
Seems like we always start out with good intentions and then things end up going too far.
That's how I feel about what I'm starting to see more of in fish being offered and what also can be said about this thread :-D

[LizStreithorst]

Slicksta, They do things like this so that they will have fish that will sell. These breeders make their living providing what will sell. Let them breed a think they have produced a show winning fish so they pull out all the plugs, give them testosterone and whatever they can get away with as far as color enhancements. I don't believe that this fish would win at a NADA shows because the score card penalizes fish that have obviously hormoned. I'm sure that the standards are different at shows in Asia.

It's not the kind of fish I would ever want. I agree it's an abomination, but it comes down to economics with the breeders. It is what it is.

[slicksta]

I didn't want to say it but a few have mentioned it in this thread already.
The Asian influence in the hobby seems to be growing

Ok... Proceed to beat me up on that now

[LizStreithorst]

Beating you up isn't worth my time, John.

[JamesW]

This is a pic of a fish that crossed my path on this site as an example of what I feel is too far.
I'm not going to name specific breeds because what people call fish changes daily and by breeder and some breeders seem to be more responsible than others using the same or similar names.

I love it! Here is the tree you were talking about! Truly a picture can say a thousand words, thanks.

[slicksta]

No James... I tell you that I don't like the level of manipulation that I'm starting to see in the hobby and the tree is you ask me if I like bananas and wine.

[slicksta]

Beating you up isn't worth my time, John.

That last comment wasn't meant to be directed at you momma

[Thursty]

That's a very nice try... But I'm starting to think that it wasn't taught over and over.... anywhere.

The quick search does not result in studies that were out to prove inbreeding was bad so that's what they found. The studies were out to find the EFFECTS of inbreeding and inbreeding DEPRESSION is what they found.

The two links you provided are a joke
The first is NOT a study of inbreeding, it's a study of a particular cichlid and whether or not it preferred to mate with an unfamiliar sibling over an unfamiliar non sibling. That particular fish being very social I find the so called suggested results trivial. I suggest you read it slowly as often are words such as " the findings suggest"
The second is from Asia... Big Surprise. And if you read it, one of the species failed to survive

Care to give it another shot

Well it's unfortunate that you've turned the discussion in the direction of invective. I don't care if you want to think that fish are the same as dogs. I'm not going to get in a flame war with you.

[bluelagoon]

I just love the looks of the angel fish we have today. So many varieties to choose from. Probably came from inbred and linebred fish. Even the domestic discus look nice. Things like a smaller eye in many domestic strains that I've noticed, also. Hybrids like the flowerhorn are nice too, but not my cup of tea. But there is a big market for hybrids. It's a personal thing/choice.

[pastry]

Just as long as they don't start injecting bioluminescence into discus like they have certain tetras and danios and other species then I'm fine. Hell, I even hate that they started doing that at all to any fish. That's just black & white not natural.

I would be fine with anyone who wanted to clone some of you all's brown-based Reds, Ica's, and heckle crosses :p

not to be all touchy-feely but try to avoid saying anything that in real life might result and being punched in the crotch. I've enjoyed this thread a lot and don't want to see it sour. I love learning from what some of you have already said and still have yet to share. I even like seeing others opinions even if I disagree with their opinions. Not saying I haven't ever lost my bearings on here but I did get Lucky by finding out some of the people I feuded with ended up being some of the best help and mentors after the fact. That said, happy funday Sunday! Happy Father's Day! And hope everyone can enjoy 1 or 6 good frosty cocktails today!

[jeep]

not to be all touchy-feely but try to avoid saying anything that in real life might result and being punched in the crotch. I've enjoyed this thread a lot and don't want to see it sour. I love learning from what some of you have already said and still have yet to share. I even like seeing others opinions even if I disagree with their opinions. Not saying I haven't ever lost my bearings on here but I did get Lucky by finding out some of the people I feuded with ended up being some of the best help and mentors after the fact. That said, happy funday Sunday! Happy Father's Day! And hope everyone can enjoy 1 or 6 good frosty cocktails today!

Ditto!!

[slicksta]

I could use a good punch in the crotch to be honest with you :-D

[pastry]

I could use a good punch in the crotch to be honest with you :-D

LOL... that's the only way I learn sometimes :antlers:

[slicksta]

��

https://youtu.be/SAIEIJHNFx4

[Kwiege]

Is the ankle biting done now? If you don’t like, don’t do it!! Worry about your own, not what others are doing. This is why I just read these and very seldom post anything!

[slicksta]

Is the ankle biting done now????

[Second Hand Pat]

is the ankle biting done now????

lol

[LizStreithorst]

Is the ankle biting done now? If you don’t like, don’t do it!! Worry about your own, not what others are doing. This is why I just read these and very seldom post anything!

Very well said, Kweige. I think of myself more as a pit bull, but in reality all I am is a big fish in a small pond. I keep chickens. With chickens I'd be high in the pecking order. It's like that in all small communities. Get used to it.

That is a lovely pair in your avatar. I'd like to see more pics and hear more about them.

[slicksta]

Is the ankle biting done now? If you don’t like, don’t do it!! Worry about your own, not what others are doing. This is why I just read these and very seldom post anything!

The same can be said for your comment, though I don't see how this can be categorized as ankle biting If you do not care for what others would like to discuss, you're free to ignore it. The frequency at which you post is welcomed if that is all you have to contribute.
I know many here enjoy the perpetual " oh look at my fish" followed by "ohh how beautiful, lovely pair, just love the colors" over and over. But I for one think this is a legitimate topic and that's all that matters. Participate or pillow bite... What ever makes you happy.

I think part of the problem is the way I framed the topic... And for that I'll take some responsibility for it going astray
But others have used generalities to defend a position that I described as being at the beginnings of excess.
Can breeding or even inbreeding produce positive aesthetic results, yes. But that doesn't legitimize doing it to the point that the animal has an unnatural appearance or has health issues. I don't understand why it's an all or nothing position. And everything I have read supports the practice of inbreeding avoidance. When I ask for some supporting material on different views so that I can better understand , I'm offered smoke and irrelevance. Using that logic, your family would be suitable for you to breed with... After all, a Danio can do it 13 times before the population fails...and it was implied that you do like bananas. And when I call out someone for providing diversionary links I'm accused of turning to the invective and incorrectly quoted as equating fish to dogs.
But hey... Look at the bright side, you got to use a $5 word... And yes I had to look it up.

Consider the pot stirred.

[Kwiege]

To each their own.. not having a pissing match with you. Good night.

[Second Hand Pat]

I see this thread has reared it's ugly head again. There is nothing new being said here so it's time to put this to bed. Everyone is titled to their opinion but it is ok to state it once and but not rub it in time and again.
Pat