Discus seems off, how would you recommend treating it?

[lpsouth1978]

I have had my system up and running for about 2 months (after 6 week fishless cycle) and now one of my discus seems to be a bit out of sorts this morning. I noticed last night that it was acting a bit lethargic and was a lot darker than usual. This morning it seemed even worse, had NO interest in food, was swimming slowly and listing to the side slightly. I don't really see any outward signs of illness, though in the video i attached it looks like there might be a small white spot on it's side.

I have a 10 gallon tank that I can set up this evening as a hospital tank, but I am not sure how to treat this guy. He is probably the smallest if my discus at ~3.5". I perform daily 30g water changes using RODI, with 1ppm TDS, with ROright added in. Here is some info on the tank:

- Waterbox 230.6 aquarium (170 display volume w/~20gallon actual sump volume)
- 1/2" PSF substrate
- Manzanita
- various seed pods

pH = 6.4
Temp = 88
Gh = 6
kH = 3
Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = <5

Inhabitants:

- 12 Discus
- 11 Sterbai Cory's
- 5 GBR
- 3 Rummynose Tetras

Please let me know what my next step should be and how I should handle this little guy. (just click on the image to be taken to flikr to see the video.

https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48049319393_fe67c966b7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gcXjDg)20190612_054213 (https://flic.kr/p/2gcXjDg) by Lyle Southard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/166227805@N05/), on Flickr

[jeep]

Your water parameters seem fine, although I would reduce the heat a bit. There's quite a few fish in there, did you QT?

If you could follow this link and fill out the form and paste it back here maybe we can solve this... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?134179-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[lpsouth1978]

Here is the form, most of this was already mentioned, but here you go. I turned the temp up to 88 because I had an outbreak of ich early on and the temp help end the ich before it ended all of the fish. None of the Discus ever showed any signs of illness, but i lost a number of other fish. Also, I have been told that my tank is lightly stocked for it's size, is this not the case?

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

One fish seems off, lethargic, not eating, listing a little bit.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Turning dark, listing to side slightly, and sometimes a light headstand

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

none

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

~190g total volume 12 discus from 3.5-5", 11 sterbai Cory's <1", 5 GBR ~1.5"

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

30g daily, ~16%

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Tank has been running for about 3 months total, 1.5-2 months with fish

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

Yes, I age the water for 12-24 hours, virtually no pH swing. I use RODI water
with pH 6.2, after 12 hours pH = 6.3 (I think RO right is raising pH slightly)

8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 88

- ph 6.4

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading <5

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

- RO water 100%, with RO right added


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

None, all fish added together

10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

I feed a homemade beefheart mix with beefheart, raw shrimp, salmon, spinach, banana, spirulina, cyclops, Cobalt discus flakes, and multi vitamin, 2-4x daily. Also FDBW every other day or so.

11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

This is a link to the video
https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48049319393_fe67c966b7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gcXjDg)20190612_054213 (https://flic.kr/p/2gcXjDg) by Lyle Southard (https://www.flickr.com/photos/166227805@N05/), on Flickr

[slicksta]

Not that I think this is necessarily your current problem, but I would not feed beef heart in anything other than a bare aquarium.
I'd also stop the fdbw, if they are Bloodworms.. It's a poor food in my opinion and can cause problems if not fully hydrated prior to feeding .
Blackworm on the other hand is good.
Get yourself some pellet and flake food. Discus love Hikari Discus Bio Gold and Tetra Color Bits

Good luck

[lpsouth1978]

Not that I think this is necessarily your current problem, but I would not feed beef heart in anything other than a bare aquarium.
I'd also stop the fdbw, if they are Bloodworms.. It's a poor food in my opinion and can cause problems if not fully hydrogenated prior to feeding .
Blackworm on the other hand is good.
Get yourself some pellet and flake food. Discus love Hikari Discus Bio Gold and Tetra Color Bits

Good luck

FDBW are freeze dried Blackworms. I have a huge bucket of the Discus Hans Cobalt discus flakes and NLS Discus pellets, but the Discus want NOTHING to do with either of them. I have been feeding small amounts of the BH mix at any time, very little makes it to the bottom of the tank and what does is quickly cleaned up by the GBR's and cory's. If I could get the Discus to eat pellets or flakes, I would gladly feed that with the BH mix as a treat.

Any thought on what is wrong with this particular fish or how to treat him?

[slicksta]

I hear ya... I've been through some foods they will never accept as well.
The two mentioned I've been using for years and it might take a week but they always accept it.
I don't see anything wrong other than the temp is too high 82°-85° is where you should be.
If you think it's not getting better in a day you can move him to the QT and treat with salt
.
And that's hydrated not hydrogenated on the worms.:-D:-D
Be sure to do that. Blackworm included

[lpsouth1978]

I will work on bringing the temp down a few degrees and see how things go. I will also get the QT tank ready in case I need to move him over.

[JamesW]

My fish took a long time to warm up to NLS pellets. They prefer Krill Gold by Northfin.

How long has the fish been like this? I wouldn't panic and do something drastic, you can end up doing more harm than good in that case. Any sign of bloating?

[lpsouth1978]

My fish took a long time to warm up to NLS pellets. They prefer Krill Gold by Northfin.

How long has the fish been like this? I wouldn't panic and do something drastic, you can end up doing more harm than good in that case. Any sign of bloating?

I only noticed it acting strange last night and there is no sign of bloating. I got a 29g tank and an aquaclear 30 filter so I can setup a decent QT. I figure I can easily add media from the DT to the AC30 so I don't have to cycle the QT. If he is not improving by tonight, I will take him out and put him in the QT. This way I can monitor him more easily and do 75-100% daily water changes.

As for feeding, I may have to starve them for a couple days and see if I can entice them to try the NLS or flakes.

[jeep]

I only noticed it acting strange last night and there is no sign of bloating. I got a 29g tank and an aquaclear 30 filter so I can setup a decent QT. I figure I can easily add media from the DT to the AC30 so I don't have to cycle the QT. If he is not improving by tonight, I will take him out and put him in the QT. This way I can monitor him more easily and do 75-100% daily water changes.

As for feeding, I may have to starve them for a couple days and see if I can entice them to try the NLS or flakes.

I think this is a good plan of action. You water quality seems good. The reason I suggested bringing the temp down is because of the white spot. If it's bacterial you want lower temps. If the spot grows, I would add some salt to the 29g.

[lpsouth1978]

Thanks Jeep, I will keep an eye on them all, but especially the sick one. I will keep you all updated, as there is anything to report.

[LizStreithorst]

I just saw this thread. Yes, the fish does look unhappy. It looks like an external bacterial infection to me. I'd put him in the 29 and treat with Furan II if he were mine. A salt dip might be a good choice as well, but I've never done that so I can't give you directions.

Discus don't need temps that high and high temps make it easier for bacteria to grow. I keep the temp in my tanks at between 82 and 83.

[jeep]

This is correct. I keep my tanks at 82 and only raise to 88-93 if treating for hex and no bacterial issues are suspected...

[lpsouth1978]

I just saw this thread. Yes, the fish does look unhappy. It looks like an external bacterial infection to me. I'd put him in the 29 and treat with Furan II if he were mine. A salt dip might be a good choice as well, but I've never done that so I can't give you directions.

Discus don't need temps that high and high temps make it easier for bacteria to grow. I keep the temp in my tanks at between 82 and 83.


This is correct. I keep my tanks at 82 and only raise to 88-93 if treating for hex and no bacterial issues are suspected...

I will set the thermostat a couple of degrees lower tonight and then a again in the morning. Is 12-14 hours long enough to safely drop temps 5-6 degrees? I will have to get some Furan II, I have Prazipro, Cupramin, and Paraguard on hand, but no Furan II.

[LizStreithorst]

You can lower the temp several degrees daily. They don't mind a temp drop especially if it's gradual.

I honestly don't know what is wrong with your fish. The symptoms suggest the meds I suggested are used to treat those symptoms. I'd put it in the 29 now rather than later. what ever it is being shed into the tank water. Your new fish may be immune to what the sick fish has, but still...

I'll try to find the guy who can help you better than I can. He's the owner of the forum but he's dealing with more important problems, but I will try.

I know what it's like to be new to Discus and have one that's unwell and not have a clue what to do. I used to freak, too. I've been around long enough to know that you caught this fast. The fish looks to in pretty good shape. Your best way forward is to take a deep breath, have a few beers, and chill while the sick fish gets rid of the mystery med in it's system.

[lpsouth1978]

Thanks for all the help. I will get him in the QT this evening and the Furan 2 will be here tomorrow. I am not really freaking out, but I want to take of whatever is bothering him before it gets too serious.

[LizStreithorst]

Good.

[Sturiosoma]

I wouldn't be so quick to medicate I'm thinking you may have some ph issues going on and I say that because of the number of tetras you say you have lost, tetras are extremely sensitive to ph changes even more so than discus and if I'm not mistaken you said you started with 30 and now you're down to 3 that's a big loss what you could try is to check the ph in your tank before a water change and then again in 12-24hr as though your tank was your aging bucket, and another thing I have noticed at this forum is a lot of people who are feeding raw beef heart are having problems and with all the recalls on beef for possible ecoli, listeria and so forth is it not possible to introduce that to your tank, using raw beef is I have never been able to bring myself to do, try a quality fish food instead.

Jeanne

[lpsouth1978]

Quick update -

I moved the sick discus into a 29g QT tank and treated with Furan 2. After a full round of treatment (using manufacturers directions) it looked to be doing very well, so I returned it to the DT. I can no longer tell which fish was sick. Thank you all for your help in bringing this guy back to full health. The tank temp has since been dropped to 83 and I have continued the daily 30g water changes. I also purchased some Tetra color bits and Hikari discus gold pellets and am trying to train them to eat these foods in addition to my BH mix. Hopefully these changes will help to keep all of my fish happier and healthier.

[jeep]

A happy ending!!!

[danotaylor]

Good one Lyle. Glad things have returned to normal mate!

[lpsouth1978]

Is it possible that this guy is simply always going to be in bad health, or maybe had a bad start and should have been culled? It is once again in QT. It almost looks like it is peeling. Like we do after getting a sunburn. I assume this is a problem with its slime coat, but I am not sure. ALL the other fish are healthy, happy, eating, etc. This poor guy has just had issue after issue. it is easily the smallest fish and the only one that has not grown since getting him. There is another one that is barely larger than it that I am keeping an eye on. So far the only symptom it is exhibiting, is that it is VERY dark, almost black. I may just move it into QT for safety. I think these are from the same batch of fry, as they are almost identical.

[jeep]

I'm sorry to hear this. It could be that is its weakened state it's more susceptible to something in your tank than the others are.

I would go ahead and QT. And just an idea, try adding tap water to the QT tank, and increase the percentage over about a week until you are at 100% tap. I've heard a very few cases where certain discus don't take well to reconstituted RO water.

There is something irritating this discus. If it were bacteria or protozoa, I'd think it would be affecting the entire tank, but in a stressed or sick discus, it doesn't take much to make them even more sick. I would also go ahead and add some salt to the QT tank, but not as much as before. Maybe 3 TBS per 10g for now...

In the end, if it appears to be getting better, I would continue QT for at least 2 full weeks...

[lpsouth1978]

I'm sorry to hear this. It could be that is its weakened state it's more susceptible to something in your tank than the others are.

I would go ahead and QT. And just an idea, try adding tap water to the QT tank, and increase the percentage over about a week until you are at 100% tap. I've heard a very few cases where certain discus don't take well to reconstituted RO water.

There is something irritating this discus. If it were bacteria or protozoa, I'd think it would be affecting the entire tank, but in a stressed or sick discus, it doesn't take much to make them even more sick. I would also go ahead and add some salt to the QT tank, but not as much as before. Maybe 3 TBS per 10g for now...

In the end, if it appears to be getting better, I would continue QT for at least 2 full weeks...

thanks jeep, I have the sick fish in QT and added some salt tonight, though I'm not sure it will help. He seems to be doing very poorly tonight. The white fuzz seems to be gone, but now his eyes are a bit cloudy and he seems very weak. He is swimming, but is constantly bumping into the glass, swimming on his side, and just seems "out of it". I will not be surprised if this little guy does not make it through the night.

Unfortunately, I don't think that going to all tap water will work for me. The water here is SOOOO bad that we don't even drink or cook with it. I am working on coming up with a way to filter the water from the tap instead of using RO, but I am not sure how effective it will be.

[jeep]

I think you've done a good job at trying to bring this one around. Unfortunately, sometimes they just don't come around. When they drift and bump into the side of the tank, it's not a good sign.

[lpsouth1978]

He made it through the night and seems to be swimming better this morning, so there is still hope, I will just take it day by day. Hopefully he will start feeling better soon.

[JamesW]

If Furan 2 and salt has not helped it might be worth trying the combination of Kanamycin and Metronidazole. I've dosed Kanaplex according to seachem's instructions with metronidazole (500 mg/10 gal/day) for 10-14 days to good effect for a fish with persistent external bacterial issues.

There are human studies which show that the combination is particularly effective for surgical prophylactic treatment to prevent infection.

Do you have a KH and GH test kit? Does RO right add KH to the water? Does your pH drift at all? It might be that you don't have much buffering capacity in your water which is upsetting to all fish but particularly to the runt of the group.

[lpsouth1978]

If Furan 2 and salt has not helped it might be worth trying the combination of Kanamycin and Metronidazole. I've dosed Kanaplex according to seachem's instructions with metronidazole (500 mg/10 gal/day) for 10-14 days to good effect for a fish with persistent external bacterial issues.

Unfortunately, I do not have either of those meds. I have the Furan 2, ParaGuard, and Prazipro. I can certainly get some different meds, but I won't have an opportunity to do so until Friday.

There are human studies which show that the combination is particularly effective for surgical prophylactic treatment to prevent infection.

Do you have a KH and GH test kit? Does RO right add KH to the water? Does your pH drift at all? It might be that you don't have much buffering capacity in your water which is upsetting to all fish but particularly to the runt of the group.

R/O Right does add KH to the water, but I am having issues with the pH SLOWLY dropping. It is not swinging, but it is slowly getting lower. Right now it is @ 5.55. Yesterday morning it was 5.62. I added another media bag full of Aragonite to help add more buffering capacity. I now have about 2lbs of aragonite in the sump to help with buffering. I also plan on removing some alder cones and decaying IAL this weekend. I will get GH and KH readings this evening when I get home and update you on those.

[LizStreithorst]

Are you sure the RO right bumps kH up. I remember it only affecting gH but it's been a long time so I might be wrong. I don't see why your pH would be dropping otherwise.

[lpsouth1978]

Liz, you could be correct. I was under the impression that it added KH, but I could be wrong. I will test both tonight and let you know. I would still think the aragonite would help dramatically, but pH continues to drop. My thinking was that I just need to remove some of the organics, which are likely causing the pH to drop as it decomposes, and let the pH rise as a result (through water changes).

[LizStreithorst]

Are you vacuuming the bottom with every WC?

[lpsouth1978]

Unfortunately, I am not. I work long hours , out of the house from 6am to after 7pm daily, and don't have an opportunity to vacuum every day. I try to vacuum each weekend as best I can. This is not the easiest setup to vacuum well. :)

I have been contemplating simplifying the setup and removing the sand and most of the organics from the system. I just have not had the time to tackle that project.

[LizStreithorst]

I would recommend you remove the sand. The driftwood and plants on them are fine. If you can siphon the sand out little by little you can leave the fish in the tank while you remove a portion of sand with every WC.

[lpsouth1978]

I should have time this weekend to work on removing sand. Also, I tested my GH and KH this evening and found that both are at 2, definitely soft, but not totally lacking in buffering capacity.

[slicksta]

Unfortunately, I am not. I work long hours , out of the house from 6am to after 7pm daily, and don't have an opportunity to vacuum every day. I try to vacuum each weekend as best I can. This is not the easiest setup to vacuum well. :)

I have been contemplating simplifying the setup and removing the sand and most of the organics from the system. I just have not had the time to tackle that project.

Get yourself at least 6 Albino bristlenose pleco... They do an excellent job of bottom cleanup as far as food is concerned. And if you have proper water flow across the bottom of the tank most of the waste should be picked up by the filter. If you see the bottom looking dirty, just skip feeding for a day
My tank is tightly packed micro sand and all I do is occasionally comb it with a old fish net to prevent dead spots from forming under the sand.
Not suggesting that you don't have to clean ever, but you will definitely notice the difference.