Hero fish question...

[danotaylor]

I'm back from my trip to Australia. My discus all are in great condition despite no water changes and 6 light feedings in 18 days. Now I can move forward with my long awaited desire and put my 2 groups of discus together in the 125 gal. The SS juvies from Al's pair are in a 75gal are 4.5" & 3.25" atm from a later batch. My hero fish choice would be my biggest (bossiest) adult marlb yellow male. He's over 6". Do you think he's too big to put in with the others? I don't wanna divide the 75gal but I could to achieve the QT goal, while growing the smaller ones more over the next 4-6 wks.
What are your thoughts? Cheers

[two utes]

Wouldn't mind seeing some current fish pics Dan.....you sure are moving forward with your discus......but how was your trip to Australia....Hope the queenslanders put on some good weather for you mate. ;)

[danotaylor]

Haha, g'day Joe. I just posted a few happy snaps on your fishing thread. We had a blast on Straddie mate. We saw the Lions thump the Hawks after a shocker start at the Gabba as well! I am a Pie's bloke at heart, but Brissy is my home town!
I will post up some update pics here soon mate!

[jeep]

I've never seen adults harass juvies that bad. I think you will be fine for the QT period...

[danotaylor]

Thanks Brian. It's my 1st QT experience so I just wanted some guidance. I appreciate your reply mate!

[danotaylor]

I moved the marlb yellow into the 75gal tonight...watching watching watching...

As promised Joe, a few snaps from tonight...
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Sold as "red albino"...was red, now peach, gets a nice red halo on fins though
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Red panda. Much less yellow in person. Just how he looks on cell phone camera pic.
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Another peachy "red albino" and proven red melon female
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Same red melon female.

I might separate one of the albino males with the red melon female and see what kind of intermediates they produce...maybe ;)

[Filip]

Why using the biggest , bossies discus as a hero Dan ?
Ussualy we use the smallest and ugliest discus as a hero fish.
My wild guess would be that you would have to divide him with an egg crate eventually , but it wouldn't hurt to just watch and observe his bossiness for the first couple of days .

[danotaylor]

Hi Filip. I chose him because I like him the least and is the 1 I am willing to risk most if there is an issue. I don't have a smaller uglier 1 (pretty fortunate actually hey) and don't want the other 4 adults pictured above affected. That is what I understood about the hero fish strategy and why I made the original post about the size/temperament this guy. If he does become aggressive I will certainly use my divider and hope that once the QT shows that can all exist together from a pathogenic standpoint they will coexist in my 6', 125 gal tank. Cheers mate!

[Filip]

Hi Filip. I chose him because I like him the least and is the 1 I am willing to risk most if there is an issue. I don't have a smaller uglier 1 (pretty fortunate actually hey) and don't want the other 4 adults pictured above affected. That is what I understood about the hero fish strategy and why I made the original post about the size/temperament this guy. If he does become aggressive I will certainly use my divider and hope that once the QT shows that can all exist together from a pathogenic standpoint they will coexist in my 6', 125 gal tank. Cheers mate!

That explains it well , Dan . I wish you good luck with your QT outcome and agresion issues after mixing the two groups together .

[danotaylor]

Thank you Filip. It is a bit counterintuitive but the best option available. With continued WC's and feeding I hope the bigger SS hit 5" and the smaller hit 4.5" over the 6 week QT period. That's should help improve any aggression in the 125 once they graduate QT, LOL.
Cheers bro!

[danotaylor]

A few snaps of the fish in the 75gal...
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I think they're doing well. I'm happy. Thanks again Tom!!

[danotaylor]

Oops, same pic twice, sorry :p Heres a couple with the hero fish...
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I am hoping all goes well. They're getting along so far, but the big guy is still a little sheepish from the plop & drop...

[jeep]

They look good enough for the contest!!

[Filip]

They look great Dan. I hope they'll add another extra inch during the 6 week QT period.

[danotaylor]

Thx Brian & Filip.
Brian the bigger 2 were contest fish with Tom. They were about 3" when I acquired them, and the smaller were about 1.5". With Tom's permission I sold some off to finance buying fish for the 125 gal he generously donated to the mens recovery house our church facilitates. I bought some lovely cyphotilapia gibberosa mikula and a few other bits & pieces, which are all doing great.
Cheers you blokes ;)

[slicksta]

Aggression is such a dynamic situation, it's hard to predict how it will play out and size isn't always an indicator.
And you're thread has reminded me that I'm way overdue for a trip down under.
Good luck with the 125 final grouping mate!

[danotaylor]

Cheers mate, everything seems ok so far but the hero hasn't really started contending for food or anything yet...early dayz...if the plans for the 125 work out I'll be stoked.
Australia, beautiful one day, perfect the next! Get on down there mate and enjoy your aussie eexperience... sounds like you've been before maybe??

[slicksta]

I'm sure all will work out well in the 125, time is all that's needed now.

Yeah I have family in Adelaide, Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth not to mention NZ and made a handful of nice long trips between 2000 - 2010
I'll wait for winter here and usually head down Jan-Feb. Miss family and diving the reef. Nothing like going down under when you are down under ;-)

[danotaylor]

Haha, amen to that. You got peeps all over the place...that's awesome, more stellar places to visit.. with free accommodation, lol...more coin to spend on dives!!
Thanks for the vote of confidence with the 125's plan...I will stand with you in agreement!
So are you Aussie then or connected by marriage or something the great land down under?

[slicksta]

Yes it sure is great to be greeted by family after 24 hours of flying.
In a nut shell, much of both my mother's and father's family left Sicily after WWII.
Some coming here to the US, but more going to Aus.... I have more cousins in Aus then are left in Italy.
Typically on my trips to Aus I coordinate with my cousins that are left in Italy and we attack from the east and west simultaneously :-D

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Danny, everyone looks great and like the hero fish selection and plan. I bet it goes great. :D
Pat

[danotaylor]

Look out Australia...the Sicilians are comin!! Awesome mate, sounds like your trips down under are a real hoot!
Thank you Pat, I sure hope so. I have been patient and will continue the slow and steady to try ensure a smooth transition. I even have the newer scratch free 125 gal that Tom gave me to move everyone into when the QT is done. I'm excited!

[danotaylor]

So being a newbie to QT'ing I have a question. I am an ICU RN. It is my understanding of pathogens that that we are talking about microscopic bacteria/viruses/fungus that have incubation periods usually ranging from 3-14 days or thereabouts. I do not know much about internal nematodes, flagalettes, and other parasites. So once we're past the initial 2 weeks, does the extra 4 wk duration have to do mainly with symptoms emerging of the presence of the after mentioned parasites? I have read here during my research period that people clean fresh wild imports using levamisole for internals & prazi for flukes and tapeworms. Can this practice be used to prep 2 separate groups of domestics for life together and reduce the QT period?
I have been super patient up till this point, and will continue to be to ensure the greatest chance for bringing my 2 groups together, but if the mentioned practice will improve my chances of success, even if it does not reduce the QT period, then I would like to know. Ultimately I want to apply the best strategy to preserve the health and well being of my discus.
Thanks for any and all thoughts.
Danny

[jeep]

Well, I haven't examined things this closely... I've always treated every phase of QT as a new Qt period, thus making QT at least a 3 month period. Maybe I'm too cautious, but I've never had a serious QT related problem. When I have even suspected a very minor issue, QT related or not, I start all over from scratch...

While I would estimate that 80% of issues arise within the first two weeks, most of these are minor issues that are easily cured. I've heard that more serious issues can arise between 2-6 weeks, and I've heard too many horror stories to be comfortable deviating from my process... A bad CC can result in some nasty results that can make some exit the hobby..

But like I said, maybe I'm too cautious :eek:

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Danny, I will find Al's QT process for you and explain his methods. Don't rush QT, it is not worth it.
Pat

[danotaylor]

Thx Brian and Pat. Wow mate, I don't think I've read anywhere here of a 3 month QT. What does CC stand for?
Thank you Pat, I appreciate your guidance.
I'm not necessarily in a hurry, though I would love it if it is possible to shorten, but more so I wanna broaden the scope and proactive "cleansing" if that is possible...

[danotaylor]

It just came to me...cross contamination!

[Second Hand Pat]

It just came to me...cross contamination!

:thumbsup:

[jeep]

My computer was attacked by a bottle of water while editing my post, so I’ll try this again if my memory allows :o

A semi-recent example of why I’m so cautious… My first step in introducing existing stock to new stock is to periodically use tank water to the new fish rather than using an actual fish, and vise-versa. If, after 2 weeks, everything is fine, then I add a hero from the existing tank to the new tank and proceed as normal.

Last year I purchased 6 discus and everything was great and I was ready to add the hero, but a busy work schedule forced me to hold off for a couple of weeks because if an issue were to arise I wanted to be available to deal with it. All the sudden, one of the new fish started crashing. I treated the new tank with heat and the fish got better. Two weeks later, I was ready to add the hero, but the same fish started crashing again. This time it did not survive so I held off and started QT all over again. Two weeks later, another new discus of the same strain (Eruptions) began to crash with the exact same symptoms as the first, and a week later the 3rd Eruption began to crash as well. This was around 3 months into the initial QT period. In the end, all 3 Eruptions died of the exact same symptoms, even though the other 3 new fish from the same shipment, and living in the same tank, were perfectly fine.

To make a long story short, I believe these 3 Eruptions were fed something early on that would enhance their color, and I believe they died of organ failure. Even though this was not a contamination issue, I know people who have lost 10’s of thousands of $$ worth of fish because they didn’t see the warning signs, so I treated it as CC because it wasn’t worth it to ignore what could possibly have been a major issue that could have wiped out my entire stock…

In the end, my discus are fine and the 3 Eruptions are the only fish I’ve lost since my return to the hobby :thumbsup:

[danotaylor]

Thanks Jeep. Great explanation of the reasoning behind you process. Bummer about the eruptions. I wasn't aware hormones or certain color enhancers could cause organ failure. My 2 red albinos were deep red when Dennis 1st imported them from Malaysia. After a few months they had faded to a light peach. I still love em, but now I am extra glad they didn't have the same fate as your eruptions since clearly they we fed some heavy enhancers by the Malaysian breeder.

To carry on the newbie questions, when adding cardinals, rummy nose &/or plecos is the same QT process the way to go? Does 1 QT each species alone or can they be mixed together, watched for 6 weeks and then do the hero fish over again?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hey Danny, here's how Al does his QT process. This post is post #88 in this thread http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?21044-Quarantine-*questions/page6.


Hi all,
Just saw this and thought I would update. I do much of what I always have done.. though I do tailor it a bit different depending on the condition the fish come in...

For those interested..I had done several Discus Disease and Health Presentations over the years... The following are from a few pages of that presentation. HTH, al

Suggested Quarantine Procedures...
Receive fish: Place into a clean tank with aged (well aerated/pH stable warm water (85-87F). Use a well cycled bio filter.
Week One: Many Frequent water changes, observe fish behavior, and treat for anything specifically noted******. Be sure all fish are eating well and passing normal feces.
Week Two: Prophylactic deworming with Praziquantel for tape worms, several days latter deworm with general dewormer (levamisole) added to water as 24 hour bath
Week Three: Repeat Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Four: Let rest, nothing but water changes.
Week Five: Re-dose with Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Six: Quarantine is over if the fish are looking healthy and eating well and are not to be mixed with existing stock. If these are to be mixed with existing stock..add least favorite of existing stock (aka Test fish) to new fishes stock.
Week Six-Week Eight: Observe new stock and test fish. If all is well, most likely safe to mix all fish.
**** important note

Quarantine Common Sense:
Maintain complete separation of new stock from existing livestock.
Use separate nets, hoses, buckets, and siphons for each quarantine tank.
Separate rooms are much safer than in room quarantines.
Perform all maintenance on new stock’s quarantine tank after you are done with all existing tanks.
Wash hands and arms thoroughly after working in tanks.
Maintain optimum water quality, less stress means healthier fish
Tank should have a fully cycled bio-filter. Quarantining a group of fish is not the time to be cycling a tank!!!
Be vigilant… catching and treating a problem early on is better than latter when it may be harder or impossible to treat.

Brews Top 11 Discus Health Issues
1. Chemical Poisoning: Chlorine, Chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, heavy metals (ex. copper and iron), Medications. Suggested treatment…clean water and lots of it!
2. Dissolved gases: Low dissolved oxygen or high dissolved C02/nitrogen etc. Suggested treatment ...age and aerate water.
3. Improper Shipping and Handling Techniques: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying only from reputable ones.
4. Improper care of Discus at Vendor’s Shop: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying from reputable ones.
5. Well meaning but inappropriate or inaccurate advice. Suggested course of action…Check references…information abounds in the internet and pet shops, both good and bad info.
Improper care of Discus on the part of the hobbyist. To keep any fish, a basic knowledge of species requirements and needs exists…Discus require a bit more than basic knowledge. Suggested treatment…Learn as much as you can!!
7. Poor Tank Hygiene Syndrome: Suggested treatment….Be less stingy with the water changes and maintenance.
8. “Charlie Brown Christmas Tree Syndrome” A fish that is sickly or poor quality when you buy it isn’t going to miraculously turn into a beautiful specimen. Suggestion..start with obviously healthy stock, not obviously sickly or low grade stock.
9. Hobbyist Mediated Pandemic: Occurs when a hobbyist recklessly acquires many specimens in a short period of time from multiple sources…mixing these together with existing stock then leads to Immune Overload..aka..sick fish. Suggested treatment….Learn patience and adhere to a sound Quarantine plan!!
10. Nutritional deficiencies…Largely unknown how this affects Discus specifically.. But what we do know is that every animal needs an adequate diet.. Suggestion…feed a varied diet to your discus of quality foods.

And finally…… Number 11!!!!


11. Gill flukes, external and internal protozoans, nematodes, bacterial infections, viruses, “plagues”etc…..

Why is this one listed last in a talk about Discus Diseases and health you may ask?…

Because! If you pay attention to the first 10 conditions mentioned you may not even need to worry about number 11! A healthy fish that has all its needs taken care of and is not stressed has an innate advantage when dealing with diseases and illness..

[danotaylor]

Thanks so much Pat!! Very concise and clear. I appreciate you finding that posting this for me!

[jeep]

Thanks Jeep. Great explanation of the reasoning behind you process. Bummer about the eruptions. I wasn't aware hormones or certain color enhancers could cause organ failure. My 2 red albinos were deep red when Dennis 1st imported them from Malaysia. After a few months they had faded to a light peach. I still love em, but now I am extra glad they didn't have the same fate as your eruptions since clearly they we fed some heavy enhancers by the Malaysian breeder.

Color enhancers are one thing, but hormones or other drugs are another. Color enhancers can be found in many commercial foods and are perfectly safe. Anasthaxin is a common enhancer and is found naturally in some algae. This is where lobster, shrimp and salmon get their pink colors from. It can actually be a very good dietary supplement (for humans as well) and I use it in my BH mix, although sparingly and probably not enough to change the color of my fish. I'm not sure if you can OD with it. Hormones are used by some breeders to bring out premature spotting or intense reds in very young fish so they can be separated and command a higher price under a different name. If used improperly, they can cause organ damage that can show up much later down the road, as I suspect happened to mine. Very unethical!!! :bomb: :bomb::bomb:

I imagine you could use something like anasthaxin to safely bring back the reds in your fish if you ever had the desire...

[danotaylor]

Thanks Brian.

Up until recently I steered clear of all commercial foods because of the enhancers. Not sure if you recall, but I had a super clean pigeon based bright royal yellow I bought with my initial group. I didn't want him to turn orange so I just fed pure deer heart. Now that I have sold him as a proven pair with 1 of my PB red melon females I am open to using commercial foods. My PB Marlb Yellow already has some red & orange naturally so it's no big deal to me if it's colors become more intense.
Thank you for your response mate! I appreciate your input.

When adding tetras etc is the same QT process used? Can I mix all my dithers together and watch for 6 wks, then add a hero?

[jeep]

I try not to say this too much, but I use Tetra Color Granules. It's high in protein and great for reds. It was highly used years ago but there are so many others now that people use and there seems to be another favorite popping up regularly. All my fish take to it fast and it's easy to use when in a hurry.

I'm really not sure about QT on your other fish. I've never done it (yet), but if it were me, I would combine all the tetras and such, get them over QT then use a hero discus afterwards as you would any other QT :confused:

[danotaylor]

Perfect mate, that's what I was thinking. I'll be your crash test dummy ;)

[slicksta]

I try not to say this too much, but I use Tetra Color Granules. It's high in protein and great for reds. It was highly used years ago but there are so many others now that people use and there seems to be another favorite popping up regularly. All my fish take to it fast and it's easy to use when in a hurry.

I'm really not sure about QT on your other fish. I've never done it (yet), but if it were me, I would combine all the tetras and such, get them over QT then use a hero discus afterwards as you would any other QT :confused:

Yup... That's what I do with my community.

Same goes for the Color Granules :-D

[danotaylor]

Thanks you blokes, and Pat as well!!

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks you blokes, and Pat as well!!

:thumbsup:

[danotaylor]

So I have had to divide the hero fish from the other 4 today. He's wasn't generally aggressive but at feeding time he pushed the others away. I even tried 5 separate smaller FDBW pieces spread full length along the front glass and he just marauded along scaring the others off so he could guts himself. Since he's already 6" and I wanna get another 1"+ on the others during the QT period, the divider is essential. Looks ugly as a hat full of bum holes but you get that sometimes I suppose ;)

[danotaylor]

So as some you know I am in the process of carrying out the hero fish strategy in an attempt to combine some Asian discus I purchased and some of the SS juvies from Al's lovely pair. I have owned the Asian discus since Sept last year and have watched them carefully and have had 0 health issues. I acquired fish several months ago from 2 batches of fry from Al's SS pair from our friend Tom. I combined the 2 groups as Tom was on the verge of doing so himself and had a run in with Hex 6 weeks ago which was successfully treated with Metro 500mg/10gal for 10 days. Since then I have watched the SS group closely and had 0 further health issues.

Last weekend I began the hero fish phase of the process. Both groups were healthy & strong, eating well, good color, very social. All was well for 4 days then on Fri I started to notice the SS were acting weird, off their food, skittish, darker, breathing rapidly. Sat am when I came home from work 1 of the smaller SS was dead. I was totally blown away as both groups separately were going strong.

I am still not totally sure of the diagnosis but without doubt the SS were susceptible to a pathogen the Asian discus carry & are immune too. I was quickly & ably assisted by 2 of our SD moderators here, praise the Lord! I applied the advice I was given and added 5 measured cups of sea salt to my 75gal tank (1tbsp/gal) after a 90% water change with aged water. Saturday evening their color was still dark but better, respirations are much slower, and they were not thrashing about the tank when I approach it. Sun am 2 of the 3 remaining SS came to the front glass like they wanted to eat. Phew...

Tonight (Sunday) before coming to work I was using an online converter to change cups to grams of dry weight so I could dose the 125gal and clean the other Asian discus. I realized that I had under dosed the recommended salt quantity by 2 whole cups, yikes! Because of the great response to the 3 cups I had already added, I added another 2 cups to make the concentration what was recommended. I will update again after I see what's going on when I get home after work in the morning.

I must admit it felt super crazy putting 5 cups of sea salt in my fresh water aquarium, but the advice came from experienced keepers who have proven the method on their own discus. Also, I was in a situation where I was gonna lose all the SS anyway, so what did I have to lose?

Clearly now I have to treat the remaining adult Asian discus in my 125gal before I can combine them all together, but time is on my side to get that done.

All that to say that mixing discus from different sources is a gamble, even when the appropriate QT measures are followed. When they are not followed it I guess it is more like Russian roulette...

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Danny, hope things are continuing to look up and that is a lot of salt but it sure can make a difference. :D

I added two cups of salt to my contest fish (40 breeder) because one of the smaller ones was self isolating and not eating (normal poop). Yesterday morning it was actually out with the group so that is progress. I continued the salt with last nights water change.
Pat

[danotaylor]

Thanks Pat. Glad your guy respond to the salt treat as well. Seems counterintuitive to add that much salt to a species tank that originally comes out of the soft TDS 0 waters of the Amazon. Glad they can handle it and the pathogens can't! Yay for salt!!

I will update my situation later today sometime ��

[jeep]

I'm glad things are looking up!! Discus seem fragile but they really are pretty resilient!! ;)

[danotaylor]

Mods plz delete #41, it's a duplicate.

So all 3 SS are alive today. 2 are active and eating FDBW. The 3rd still looks a bit rough. I got called in for my on call shift tonight so I will have my wc aged/salted and ready for when I get home in the morning.

Wondering if furan 2 be ordered in bulk from jehmco? Will research from work tonite...

[jeep]

The active ingredient is Nitrofurazone. It can be bought in bulk but I'm not sure how to dose it. It depends on the purity...

[danotaylor]

Thx Brian. Jehmco supply it, but not sure if it comes with dosing instructions. I will call them tomorrow...

[danotaylor]

Plz don't delete the new #41, it is the remaining post after the duplicate was removed lol thx mods! ;)

[danotaylor]

So after a 90% WC on 6/25 with only replacing 2 of the initial 5 cups of salt all 3 SS are looking good again; active, eating, color is good as well. Did another 90% WC on 6/27 and brought salt concentration up to 4 cups again. It is clear that the increased osmolality of the water had a damaging effect on the pathogen. I will change 90% again on 6/30 and then resume my usual WC schedule without adding salt. If all is well still in a few more weeks I will combine the groups together in the 125gal.

Oh yes, I will be salt treating the 125gal with the same concentration & regime as the 75gal prior to moving the fish as the Asian discus clearly carry the pathogen the initially caused the issue. I am uncertain as to whether the salt eradicated the pathogen, or gave the SS a reprieve to establish immunity. I hope the former, but better to treat the 125 in case immunity was not established. 1 thing I do know is that the discus tolerated this salt treatment and the pathogen did not! Yehar!!