Hello and a couple of questions

[Pudmuppy]

Morning!

I am a long time fishkeeper (Angelfish, livebearers, goldfish and bettas mostly along with my beloved newts!) and also worked in a specialist fish store for three years (a long time ago though), however we never dealt with Discus at the shop and before recently, I never really considered keeping them!

I had plans to finally add a pond to my garden this year and get fully immersed in the world of Koi, which was my long term plan, however for various reasons that's not going to be a good idea, at least for a few years, and so no pond and no koi. I was very sad, and so my husband suggested I get a 75 gallon or perhaps larger. I have been researching what to keep, I was strongly thinking of SA cichlids, then I remembered the elusive and elite world of the Discus ;)

I have been slowly reading my way through the forum, but I did have a couple of questions. I am still not 100% sure if I will go with discus as it seems like the standards held are very, very high, but then I am not trying to grow out the most perfect show specimen (at least, not yet!) and am just trying to "wet my feet" at first. I am rather intimidated by the rules of Discus keeping, but I am also very intrigued and love it. I adore a big, immersive challenge and it seems like keeping discus may be the time sump/attention sucking hobby I am looking for!

Edit: I should probably add that I am only allowed one big tank (We will see though!) and I have a 20 gallon with my newts and a few temperate species, a 20 gallon with betta sorority, and a temp tank with goldfish which will probably be rehomed now that I am not getting a pond. My husband's wish is for there to be no more than a 20 gallon and the 75/90 (and then any temp quarantine tank I need is ok).

My initial questions are:

It seems strongly recommended that babies are grown out in a bare bottom, non planted tank - however, would it be acceptable to have bare bottom with a few pieces of driftwood with java fern attached, to keep it looking a little more natural? I love a natural tank and the discus will eventually be hardscaped with driftwood, sand and stones in the bottom and a small amount of javafern. I really don't like the look of just a bare tank and it is going to be a showtank in my livingroom so I know the husband won't be too keen on an empty glass box.

What age do you recommend they are strong enough to move into a more natural dressed tank?

I will more than likely be setting up an RO system, just a basic one, as the water here can fluctuate heavily and the seemingly random chlorine content has killed a lot of friend's fish and my own despite treating. I don't see a lot of mention of RO water here (so far). Do people still use RO water for their Discus overall, or just those lucky people like me with dodgy water? I recall from my shop days, all Discus owners were very strict about the RO thing :)

How friendly and interactive do Discus become? I am looking for a fish that I can sit and watch doing their own thing, exploring, interacting with each other - I don't need a fish that begs constantly and is flying around the glass waiting for feeding (I have my fancy goldfish for that!) But am looking for a fish that isn't too shy, but will do it's own thing without being overly stressed at being watched. Constantly. Because that's all I seem to do for stress relief these days!

I would eventually really like to add other species to the tank too such as a pair of kribs, corys, maybe a small cichlid like the rainbow cichlid or a small group of geophagus. some scatterfish too. I am still reading through the forum but these all seem like species that have been successful with Discus. Would it be possible to introduce some corys and very young geophagus to the tank when the discus are still fairly young, but established?

I hope I haven't repeated too many previous questions, and if I have, please feel free to point me at the right thread! I am still thoroughly reading through the forum, but was particularly interested in the question about adding wood and plants to a bb tank.

Thanks everyone for your patience!

[Filip]

Hi and welcome to the forum Ally.
It seems to me that the solution for the most issues you have addressed in your initial post would be to just buy half to fully grown 5-6 inch discus .
That way you can have a nice and fully set up community tank for your living room and a happy hubby on top of it , right from the start :) .

If you do decide to grow young discus then a couple of driftwoods with attached plants in a Barebottom wouldn't hurt the water quality if you do your regular maintenance and Waterchanges .

Chlorine / Chloramines can be addressed with just adding Dechlorinator during WCs , so no real need for RO unit just to combat tap water chlorine.

Discus are very friendly fish that always swim on the front glass . Although they have their own pecking order and pairing behaviour that is interesting to observe , I'm afraid everytime you approach the tank they will beg for food on the front glass no matter how well fed they are , just like your goldfish .

And lastly I wouldn't recommend any other fish in their growth phase .You can add food competitors and other species once they get half to fully grown or at least 5 inch size .
Good luck with your decisions Ally and I hope you will be able to make your koi Pond dream come true some day .

[Pices]

Most people use RO for certain wilds or for breeding purposes. What a lot of us do is age the water in a barrel, drum or trash can and add a heater and an air stone. This gases off some of the chlorine and prevents ph swings. It’s recommended to put some fresh water in a bucket and test the ph. Then test it 24 hrs later and if there is a ph difference of more than .2, you have a ph swing. If it’s the same or only changes a tad, then you can use tap water for water changes. Even though you gas off the chlorine, you still want to use a dechlorinator.
Discus are a bit more work, but they are worth it and you just have to experience them to know why. I didn’t know what I was getting into when I started, and I’m glad I didn’t or I may not have taken on this fish that still has that somethin’ somethin’ years later.

[Pudmuppy]

Hi and welcome to the forum Ally.
It seems to me that the solution for the most issues you have addressed in your initial post would be to just buy half to fully grown 5-6 inch discus .
That way you can have a nice and fully set up community tank for your living room and a happy hubby on top of it , right from the start :) .

If you do decide to grow young discus then a couple of driftwoods with attached plants in a Barebottom wouldn't hurt the water quality if you do your regular maintenance and Waterchanges .

Chlorine / Chloramines can be addressed with just adding Dechlorinator during WCs , so no real need for RO unit just to combat tap water chlorine.

Discus are very friendly fish that always swim on the front glass . Although they have their own pecking order and pairing behaviour that is interesting to observe , I'm afraid everytime you approach the tank they will beg for food on the front glass no matter how well fed they are , just like your goldfish .

And lastly I wouldn't recommend any other fish in their growth phase .You can add food competitors and other species once they get half to fully grown or at least 5 inch size .
Good luck with your decisions Ally and I hope you will be able to make your koi Pond dream come true some day .

Thank you Filip! I probably should have mentioned that one of my favourite parts is taking a young fish and growing it into a beautiful adult! So I would be getting fairly small to start, although beyond the more fragile stages at first. Also, my other half would probably fall over if he saw the cost of the larger individuals, at least at this stage!

I like that I can probably add a few bits of driftwood and some fern to break up the empty tank, that will work great for the first six months or so.

My concern with the local water is a bit more than the chlorines etc, there have been times when several of us across the city have had weird, unexplained fish issues and deaths at the same time. There are sometimes news reports on how weird/bad the water can be for people around here, so I think there is something more than the usual chlorine happening.... so I think I will use RO at least partially to make sure. Losing a tank of discus or my angelfish would be pretty devastating.

I probably phrased a bit badly - I don't mind if they are friendly, that's great to know! I was more concerned that I have heard they can be highly flighty and easily stressed and will hide a lot and that's what I am trying to avoid. I would have been happy if they floated around doing their own thing, I just don't want a fish that hides every time I come close. I guess it can be down to situation, if they are in a high traffic area they will get used to it whereas if they are tucked in a corner they may be more jumpy at seeing people.

What about small scatterfish? Would having a small non food competitive species that is out and about help them feel more secure? If not, I will avoid adding any other fish until they are much bigger.

Thank you for your help so far! I do hope one day I can venture into koi the way I had hoped, but I think it is going to be a few years at least... and to be honest, after reading more about Discus keeping, these flat round beasties may actually fulfill/replace the passion that I have for koi! And at considerably less water volume too.....

[Pudmuppy]

Most people use RO for certain wilds or for breeding purposes. What a lot of us do is age the water in a barrel, drum or trash can and add a heater and an air stone. This gases off some of the chlorine and prevents ph swings. It’s recommended to put some fresh water in a bucket and test the ph. Then test it 24 hrs later and if there is a ph difference of more than .2, you have a ph swing. If it’s the same or only changes a tad, then you can use tap water for water changes. Even though you gas off the chlorine, you still want to use a dechlorinator.
Discus are a bit more work, but they are worth it and you just have to experience them to know why. I didn’t know what I was getting into when I started, and I’m glad I didn’t or I may not have taken on this fish that still has that somethin’ somethin’ years later.


Thanks Pices, That is a good idea, I can probably set up a 50 gallon+ water barrel in the garage and I will check the ph etc. I still think I will get a small RO unit as there has been a couple of events of unusual fish deaths amidst friends and I, all at the same time and the only thing we can put it down to is the water. There have been articles recently about the quality of local water for human consumption... so to be safe I think I will do at least some RO water. I would hate to lose any more fish.

I love that Discus are a bit more complicated, I really like a challenge and a hobby that requires some investment of time and energy and love... so I really think Discus may be my thing! I was very sad at not being able to get my koi again, but the Discus may be a perfect substitute. I am glad to hear that you still have that love for them years later!

[LizStreithorst]

Based on what you said RO is a good idea, Ally. Your water bill will go up because there's a lot of waste water with RO. It would be nice if you could run it to your garden but if that isn't possible it isn't. If you live where there is little air pollution you could also collect rain water and run it through a carbon filter.

The only problem with dither fish is that there is a possibility of them transferring a illness that your Discus had never seen. Lots of people take a chance on that but once in a while they get bit. It's up to you whether or not you want to take the chance without proper QT including the addition of a sacrificial lamb. Sterbai Cory's, Bristlenose Pleco's and a school of small tetras like cardinals, or rummynose are good choices as are several others.

The drift wood with Anubis or Java fern is fine.

There is one thing that you didn't mention. I strongly recommend that you buy all your Discus at the same time from the same seller. Again, this is due to the possibility of cross contamination. This is a much stronger possibility when you add Discus to other Discus that it does when you add other types of fish to a Discus Tank. This is true no matter how much you trust your Discus supplier. The only Discus that come from only one Discus farm are the German Discus from Discus Hans who is no longer one of our sponsors but you can find Discus Hans USA if Google is your friend.

I think that you will do just fine because you are reading here and asking good questions. I'm excited for you.

[Pudmuppy]

Based on what you said RO is a good idea, Ally. Your water bill will go up because there's a lot of waste water with RO. It would be nice if you could run it to your garden but if that isn't possible it isn't. If you live where there is little air pollution you could also collect rain water and run it through a carbon filter.

The only problem with dither fish is that there is a possibility of them transferring a illness that your Discus had never seen. Lots of people take a chance on that but once in a while they get bit. It's up to you whether or not you want to take the chance without proper QT including the addition of a sacrificial lamb. Sterbai Cory's, Bristlenose Pleco's and a school of small tetras like cardinals, or rummynose are good choices as are several others.

The drift wood with Anubis or Java fern is fine.

There is one thing that you didn't mention. I strongly recommend that you buy all your Discus at the same time from the same seller. Again, this is due to the possibility of cross contamination. This is a much stronger possibility when you add Discus to other Discus that it does when you add other types of fish to a Discus Tank. This is true no matter how much you trust your Discus supplier. The only Discus that come from only one Discus farm are the German Discus from Discus Hans who is no longer one of our sponsors but you can find Discus Hans USA if Google is your friend.

I think that you will do just fine because you are reading here and asking good questions. I'm excited for you.

Hello Liz!

I'm hoping to set up the RO in such a way to catch the waste for the garden, as you said, as I hate wasting water. The rainwater is also a good idea - although I am in Dallas, so for half a year, no rain :D Although with the insane weather we have had this spring I could probably have collected enough water to last those six months of drought....

If I introduced a group of ditherfish to my small tank or a quarantine tank for, say, 6 weeks and then transferred them to the discus tank, would that eliminate or reduce any chance of transferring illness? Or is it more a case of they could be carrying something underlying that can get transferred because of the Discus' lack of exposure overall?

I should have mentioned that I do indeed plan on getting them all from the one place at the same time, and then try to only introduce more from the same seller in the future, with a long quarantine and a hero fish. I am still looking around as to which seller - I will have a budget of under $300 at this point in time so I can't dive in to the top end ones yet! I have however seen that Discus Guy does great prices, and I have found a local breeder called Dallas Discus that I am waiting to hear back from. I am going to do a lot more research when the time to buy gets closer though, and will be looking through the breeders here for sure. I just need to decide what combination of types I would like! (checkerboard pigeon and snakeskins for sure! My favorite all over is gold checkerboard pigeon, but they seem to have a much higher pricetag and I have read that it's hard to keep yellow from becoming orange so I will try them when I am more experienced)

Thanks for your reassurance, I always want to provide the best for my fish/animals. I tend to overthink and over-read everything I do, but it can come in handy! As I only have the one large tank (although we shall see!) I am trying to be extra considerate of my decisions!

[LizStreithorst]

The problem with dither fish is that they may introduce a pathogen that the Discus are susceptible to. The usual suspects are worms and hex, but it is unlikely they would carry a deadly disease especially if they are bred here in the States, but it's possible. You either suck it up and take a chance or decide against it. I'd go for it, but I don't have a husband who would raise hell with me if you lost your expensive fish before being able to figure out what was wrong and how to treat it. It's pretty much up to you.

I Googled Discusguy and his reviews were not good. Beware of buying on price and pics of the best example of the strain being offered, not what the fish you buy will become. Patterns like checker board don't show up until the fish is almost breeding age. I have been unable to find anything on Dallas Discus which itself is not a good sign. At least he's close enough for you to visit his facility and see the fish you want with your own two eyes. John Nicholson is in the Dallas area, although way out in the sticks. He's a breeder of high quality fish but you will be limited in strain selection. You can find him on Facebook. If you can handle the price of shipping Discus Hans in Maryland is an excellent importer. Still you will be limited to the strains the big breeder in Germany breeds. His name is Stendker and his facility is closed. You could get Discus from Hans at different times and not have to even worry about QT. If you like variety, I understand that Kenny, a sponsor here, buys from just one big breeder. I've added more Discus from him to other fish from him without QT and everything was always fine. Give them a look.

HTH,
Liz

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Ally and welcome to the forum :D Are you referring to Discus Guy in NJ. There are better choices :D Check out our sponsors here. They have been personally vetted by Al (brewmaster15) who owns this place. If you want to look at some eye candy checkout Kenny's latest shipment http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?135182-PREVIEW-MEGA-65-strains-JUNE-2019-Forrest-shipment(mostly-medium-to-large-sizes).
Pat

[Pudmuppy]

Hey Liz,
I follow! I think I will make it an issue for another day, as I am not going to chance adding any extra fish until the Discus had been with me a good while anyway! I may try the hero discus route with all new fish, even the scatters to make sure...

I admit I haven't fully researched who I want to source fish from yet, I am still just browsing lightly... I didn't see anything about Discusguy or Dallas Discus when I looked briefly in the review section here, but that's a shame about Discusguy... I will of course be doing really in depth reviews before purchase of any, I just liked that he seemed to offer a "mixed bag" of types for a good price which was appealing. Will keep looking!

I've just seen John Nicholson's posts here and his fish are gorgeous - my other issue is that I don't have a car at present, although he is close enough that it may be possible! I have been looking at Hans and Kenny and drooling slightly - my concern has been the cost at this stage, with my lack of Discus knowhow. I do see that Kenny sometimes offers one or two strains at a more affordable price so I may keep an eye on that! I do like that I could add more fish down the road with less stress. I was initially hoping to get 6-10 small Discus so I had a large enough group (with room for mistakes!) and then trim down at a later date. I may have to rethink that and start with a smaller group of 6 better quality fish and either keep them in a smaller tank for the first couple of months, or block off part of the 75 gallon.

[Pudmuppy]

Hi Ally and welcome to the forum :D Are you referring to Discus Guy in NJ. There are better choices :D Check out our sponsors here. They have been personally vetted by Al (brewmaster15) who owns this place. If you want to look at some eye candy checkout Kenny's latest shipment http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?135182-PREVIEW-MEGA-65-strains-JUNE-2019-Forrest-shipment(mostly-medium-to-large-sizes).
Pat

Hi Pat! Thanks for the welcome - I have just been reading through your competition grow out thread actually! I believe that is the guy, I am hearing it may not be the best option!

I have been looking at Kenny's offerings with heart eyes, however I think my budget may be a bit stretched at this stage - although I do see that he often offers a couple of strains that may be more within my budget. I want to make sure I can take care of these guys properly and get some experience, before I shell out big, otherwise I won't be sleeping, I will be getting up to do extra wc in the night :D

A tiny, evil part of me is actually wondering about taking Al up on his offer when he does his fry flash sales and just diving in to the deep end, but we will see!

[Second Hand Pat]

A tiny, evil part of me is actually wondering about taking Al up on his offer when he does his fry flash sales and just diving in to the deep end, but we will see!

This might be worth considering Ally. His fry are great and he is a great resource.
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

Well, does have a lot if eye candy in this shipment! I'm not into purchasing more Discus now so I didn't look at the tread. Ask him about bringing in some smaller fish for you. He's honest and trustworthy, and more than happy to accommodating his customers. Good choice, Pat.

[Pudmuppy]

Ugh, so I've been monitoring my water and testing out of the tap and it was sitting at a pH of 6.4, lovely! However this was an old genetic test kit and I decided to be safe and get a new api test kit... Just tested tap water and it is a pH of 8.2?! I will retest again tomorrow and also test the water I've got sitting out, however I'm a bit concerned. Is this going to be too high for discus? I don't really have the capacity to use only ro water for huge water changes, I was going to do a mix which should drop it a bit?
.
I also don't want to use chemical buffers, trying to keep it as straight forward as possible.

Any thoughts on whether discus will cope with a pH of around 8?

[LizStreithorst]

They'll do fine as long as the pH is stable. You only need to lower it for breeding and even that is more about kH than pH. There are some folks who can even breed in a pH is 8.

[Pudmuppy]

They'll do fine as long as the pH is stable. You only need to lower it for breeding and even that is more about kH than pH. There are some folks who can even breed in a pH is 8.

Thanks Liz, I had a momentary panic there. I have read that it's not about PH but it's stability day to day, but have also read a lot of people saying that 8 is still too high. I have a tub of tapwater sitting out now, and one being lightly airated and we will see what happens tonight. I believe that it is pretty stable overall which will be a relief. I didn't get a KH test kit but I probably will - though I am not planning on breeding (Though of course that will probably change!)

[Cove Beach]

Welcome to the Discus hobby/addiction LOL You had a question about flighty fish, and being in a high traffic area. My display is an in wall room divider with the end panel facing the front door to the house. Company walks in all the time and the fish come to greet them and check them out. If I’m working in the office they watch me! When cleaning the glass I often have to push them out of the way to work. I started with 3-5” fish from Kenny as i hadn’t kept discus before. He is great to work with and takes the time to answer any questions you might have. My display has pool filter sand and Malaysian driftwood. I had intended to add plants later but so far after a year have not. Like Liz said consistent ph is more important than a specific target. Mine runs 7.2 pretty much. I was worried about my wife not going along with the cost of the fish, until she saw them in person and after that experiencing how much the interact, she was sold. At our house we watch “Fish TV” most nights.

[Pudmuppy]

Welcome to the Discus hobby/addiction LOL You had a question about flighty fish, and being in a high traffic area. My display is an in wall room divider with the end panel facing the front door to the house. Company walks in all the time and the fish come to greet them and check them out. If I’m working in the office they watch me! When cleaning the glass I often have to push them out of the way to work. I started with 3-5” fish from Kenny as i hadn’t kept discus before. He is great to work with and takes the time to answer any questions you might have. My display has pool filter sand and Malaysian driftwood. I had intended to add plants later but so far after a year have not. Like Liz said consistent ph is more important than a specific target. Mine runs 7.2 pretty much. I was worried about my wife not going along with the cost of the fish, until she saw them in person and after that experiencing how much the interact, she was sold. At our house we watch “Fish TV” most nights.

All great information, thank you! I wonder if the whole "flighty" Discus idea came from pet shops where sick stressed fish were acting unwell and flighty, that's why that reputation was gained. Your room divider sounds awesome, something I would love to do in the future :D

[Pudmuppy]

Ugghh.. things get worse. I set up another experiment and tested tap water straight from the tap with my new api kit - PH 8.2, nitrites 0, nitrates 0, ammonia 1ppm (!) then sat a bucket of water for 24 hours..... PH 7.4, nitrites .25, nitrates 0, ammonia 1ppm.....

So that's a ph drop of significance. I really had thought that the ph was high but stable. I am going to do a few more tests in case something went wrong, but I am not happy with that reading at all.

I am thinking that I should be ok to set up a bucket of around 40-50 gallons either in my garage or somewhere quiet in the garden, but this means I can only do 50% water changes daily. Which may mean that I need to purchase larger and stronger discus? or would 8 or so 3" discus be ok in a 75 gallon tank that gets 50% daily? I am contemplating if I could fit in a larger barrel without husband noticing! My other concern is the extra time it will take to fill up an intermediary vessel daily - it probably isn't a lot of time but I will need to factor it in.

My other huge issue is with the ammonia reading! Is it normal to have ammonia showing up in tap water? If so, I am giving my dogs filtered water from now on! I believe that the dechlorinator will break down the ammonia so I am not too worried for the fish, but it was a surprise! I am in Dallas, and this area is known for doing some pretty poor stuff with its water!

[LizStreithorst]

Do they add chloramines to the water? Prime would fix that. I can't understand the nitrate reading of 0 the first time and .25 after aging.

IMO the 3" Discus should do fine with a 50% WC. I only do the huge WC's with babies 2" and under.

[Cove Beach]

You might consider running the tap water through a sediment filter and carbon block which will help with crud and chlorine coming in from the city. I was surprised at how much dirt is in the “fit for drinking” water out of the tap. Mine runs through a sediment and 2 carbon blocks and then into aging barrels controlled by a float switch. Also there is a large air stone running continuously in the barrel. Your aged ph is very close to what I have here so no problem.

[Pudmuppy]

Hi everyone!
I am still in the indecisive stage - I really want to keep discus, but am now concerned at the added work with my dodgy ph fluctuations. The ammonia I could handle with chlorine remover, but the ph drop is insane. I am trying to decide whether I have the capacity (and time!) to set up a barrel in the garage to age the water daily and then also be able to run the water from the sink to the garage, and then aging barrel to the tank - it will be a good distance apart! I have been thinking of using a powerhead to drain tank, aging barrel to tank, then sink to aging barrel, but I am really worried about the amount of time this will take each day/every second day. It may be feasible, although I think I will have to get up earlier each morning!

How do you all do your water changes? How long on average does it take you to do say a 50% water change on a 75/100 gallon and then top up your aging barrel?

Thanks everyone for your continued patience!

[lpsouth1978]

...How do you all do your water changes? How long on average does it take you to do say a 50% water change on a 75/100 gallon and then top up your aging barrel?

I use 2x Brute trash cans on wheels. One can is the dirty water can, the other is the fresh water can. I have a pump with a hose in the clean water can and I attach the hose to the lip of the aquarium using a clamp. The pump is plugged into my ATO unit. As I remove water from the tank the ATO kicks the pump on and refills the tank for me. I have it set up so the dirty water is slowly removed over a 6 hour period, but you could certainly do it manually. I let mine run overnight and in the morning I simply hook my fresh water can up to my RO system and let it fill while I am at work. The can has a powerhead in it to create aeration in the can while I am gone and by the time I get home it is ready to do another water change. In all I have about 5 minutes of work to do a 40g water change. I vacuum the substrate once a week and do a manual water change at that time.

[Cove Beach]

How close would the aging barrel be to the tank? If you run your tap water through a filter you could run the 1/4” line to your aging barrel a lot easier than a big hose and use a float switch to shut it off. If your house is one floor you could do a Brute on wheels for drain and fill. Just really depends on obstacles in the house. In my situation my tank is on the main level and plumbed through the floor to a sump where all the wet fun happens.

[Pudmuppy]

I use 2x Brute trash cans on wheels. One can is the dirty water can, the other is the fresh water can. I have a pump with a hose in the clean water can and I attach the hose to the lip of the aquarium using a clamp. The pump is plugged into my ATO unit. As I remove water from the tank the ATO kicks the pump on and refills the tank for me. I have it set up so the dirty water is slowly removed over a 6 hour period, but you could certainly do it manually. I let mine run overnight and in the morning I simply hook my fresh water can up to my RO system and let it fill while I am at work. The can has a powerhead in it to create aeration in the can while I am gone and by the time I get home it is ready to do another water change. In all I have about 5 minutes of work to do a 40g water change. I vacuum the substrate once a week and do a manual water change at that time.

Hi Ipsouth, thanks for the information, that's very interesting - how big are your brute cans? 40g? are they easy enough to move around? I like the idea of a slow feed actually.

Just thinking aloud here, but I had another idea... I also have my other 20 gallon newt/temperate fish tank which I am actually about to upgrade to a 30 gallon (no bigger than this, thanks husband:P) ... I am wondering if I could shift the inhabitants of the newt tank to the 70 gallon, make a temporary set up that looks nice with other temperate/tolerant fish and then keep 6 or so juvenile discus in the 30 gallon for 4-6 months, until they are of a large enough size to cope with going into the 70 gallon? It would be overstocked, but kept barebottom and get daily 90% water changes, perhaps twice daily if I can find a RO system in my budget that keeps up. I can add a sponge filter to help the bioload along with the biowheel (which I will muffle the flow from). Then once the discus are bigger and established, do a swap and move my newts back to their 30 gallon with a few of my favourite temperate fish, and rehome the others.

Is this mad talk? Could 6 or more 2.5"-3" discus grow well in a 30 gallon or am I going to see bullying and stunting even with daily wc? What sort of size and age would you consider being safe enough to move into a 70 gallon lightly planted tank and have water changes reduced to large changes, twice a week?

[lpsouth1978]

Hi Ipsouth, thanks for the information, that's very interesting - how big are your brute cans? 40g? are they easy enough to move around? I like the idea of a slow feed actually.

Just thinking aloud here, but I had another idea... I also have my other 20 gallon newt/temperate fish tank which I am actually about to upgrade to a 30 gallon (no bigger than this, thanks husband:P) ... I am wondering if I could shift the inhabitants of the newt tank to the 70 gallon, make a temporary set up that looks nice with other temperate/tolerant fish and then keep 6 or so juvenile discus in the 30 gallon for 4-6 months, until they are of a large enough size to cope with going into the 70 gallon? It would be overstocked, but kept barebottom and get daily 90% water changes, perhaps twice daily if I can find a RO system in my budget that keeps up. I can add a sponge filter to help the bioload along with the biowheel (which I will muffle the flow from). Then once the discus are bigger and established, do a swap and move my newts back to their 30 gallon with a few of my favourite temperate fish, and rehome the others.

Is this mad talk? Could 6 or more 2.5"-3" discus grow well in a 30 gallon or am I going to see bullying and stunting even with daily wc? What sort of size and age would you consider being safe enough to move into a 70 gallon lightly planted tank and have water changes reduced to large changes, twice a week?

I can't really help you with the questions about number of fish in the 30g, though I am sure someone will chime in. My brute cans are 44g. They hold ~40g where I have the float switch installed. If I went to the brim it would be 44, but would be impossible to move the cans around without sloshing water all over the house. By doing the slow feed, you do not have much of a concern over swings in temp, GH, KH, and pH. Any changes take place over a LONG period and pose little risk. I still age my water for about 12 hours before using it, but I don't worry about heating it at all.

[Sturiosoma]

Yeah who can't move around a 40gal. Brute can

Thanks Jeanne

[snxtif]

Hi Ally,

First of all, congrats on your Discus journey, and since you visited this site before you started, I'd say you already made your life A LOT easier.

I am also a discus newbie (<2 years into discus) but been through quite a lot in term of newbie mistakes / adventures.

Please take my below advice with a grain of salt.

1. Please get the biggest tank as you can. Sooner or later, you will think "IF ONLY I WENT FOR THE BIGGER ONE"
2. Please get the biggest discus as you can, for the first batch at least. <- Would save you from a heck of headache.
3. Please get as many discus as you can. Most of us lost/stunt a few along the way. It's a part of the journey.
4. Please go with bare bottom tank for your first batch. <- Would save you from a heck of headache.
5. Change your water as frequently and as much as you can (90% a day is not even too much for discus nerds, you know.)
6. When s$%t happens (and, well, it might happen), please calm down and visit this site. Ask question, provide necessary details. Follow instructions from these discus pros. They really save lives!

7. After a success season or so, you might consider do things you wanted, adding some plants here and there, adding few tank mates, adding new champion quality discus, raising from a pup, breeding exotic strain, searching for holy grail etc.

8. Last but not least, please read this thread, one of my favorite from Al.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?82929-Cold-Hard-Facts-for-the-Hobbyist



Enjoy your journey!

[Pudmuppy]

Hi Ally,

First of all, congrats on your Discus journey, and since you visited this site before you started, I'd say you already made your life A LOT easier.

I am also a discus newbie (<2 years into discus) but been through quite a lot in term of newbie mistakes / adventures.

Please take my below advice with a grain of salt.

1. Please get the biggest tank as you can. Sooner or later, you will think "IF ONLY I WENT FOR THE BIGGER ONE"
2. Please get the biggest discus as you can, for the first batch at least. <- Would save you from a heck of headache.
3. Please get as many discus as you can. Most of us lost/stunt a few along the way. It's a part of the journey.
4. Please go with bare bottom tank for your first batch. <- Would save you from a heck of headache.
5. Change your water as frequently and as much as you can (90% a day is not even too much for discus nerds, you know.)
6. When s$%t happens (and, well, it might happen), please calm down and visit this site. Ask question, provide necessary details. Follow instructions from these discus pros. They really save lives!

7. After a success season or so, you might consider do things you wanted, adding some plants here and there, adding few tank mates, adding new champion quality discus, raising from a pup, breeding exotic strain, searching for holy grail etc.

8. Last but not least, please read this thread, one of my favorite from Al.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?82929-Cold-Hard-Facts-for-the-Hobbyist



Enjoy your journey!


Hi Snxtif!
Thanks for the welcome! I am actually an over-reader, so I tend to burn myself out and decide not to do The Thing that I am reading about because I get stuck too deep and decide that I can't manage it after all. Interestingly, despite that, I keep coming back to read and plan more about Discus so that is a good sign!

As for tank size - it will be a 72 gallon, and I may try build my own sump to create a bigger volume. I would get bigger but husband has vetoed that - for now!! I actually caught him looking at a 120 gallon tank online *all by himself* so that's really exciting :D I know exactly how to, ahem, encourage him too - basically give him a beautiful end result as he loves art and gorgeous things... aka, a beautiful tank (looking at Waterbox) and a group of adult discus is going to bowl him over! So perhaps in a couple of years an upgrade can happen (mwahaha)

As this is my first time with Discus, and as my OH is nervous enough as it is about their cost, it will be smaller 2.5-3.5" fish that I start with. One of my favourite parts is growing out, so I do prefer smaller

I am thinking of starting with 8-10, but they might be starting in a 30 gallon for a couple of months to grow out, I am undecided whether to put them straight into the big tank, if they start in the small tank I might do 6-8 with the assumption there will be a couple of losses as I get to grips

Most certainly, definitely bare bottom for the first few months! I want to mostly have hardscape and then a playsand substrate, but I will add that as I go. I may even just add tile or something to the bottom if it looks nice.

My muscles and I are ready for the epic water changes! I am going to buy some 30 gallon buckets for aging water - I have a significant ph drop overnight and am still thinking about an RO unit too. I actually do daily water changes on my small tank as I have a couple of goldfish, and my newts love fresh water too so it shouldn't take much time to get into the routine of doing a second tank, just on a bigger scale!

I am really looking forward to getting experienced enough to feel like I can add more higher quality discus in the future, and I am especially interested in breeding too, but that will be a long way off! I liked to breed angels and bettas, and leopard geckos and am looking forward to breeding newts so I am sure the discus will be a new obsession too....

lastly, thank you for that link! I am actually watching Al's video (through DIY) which is an hour and 20 minutes long, right now :)

[snxtif]

Ally,

As I said earlier, you've taken a great step reading this site before head diving into this world lol:D.

I'd say don't worry about your OH. Most likely, well, let's say in many cases, they would join us.
Who wouldn't love brilliant color fish with beautiful patterns and stupid face (#sincerecompliment)
(or well, "if you can't defeat them, join them" mentality?)
My wife gave me a dirty look when I bought my tank, but now she even helps me feeding & checking all the chics.

For the aesthetic part, yeah, let's take it step by step.
Just to make sure you know what you are doing then it should be fine.
(like, if you have substrate, say bye bye to beefheart etc.)
I would start from driftwood with Anubias (even it would feel like putting pairs of scissors hanging dangerously on coffee table while trying to take care of 7-8 toddlers... indeed).
Substrate would be my last choice though (been there done that, had a hard time taking all out).
Things can be done differently, but it would come with a cost (time, effort, headache).

Most importantly, don't forget to share us your journey, we love story of people buying new fish and pics, lots of pics.

Cheers

[LizStreithorst]

Indeed. It's wonderful to have a new member who does a good job researching and trying how to overcome obstacles. If you want it enough you will find a way. I can't wait to see what is coming.

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks everyone for their comments! It really does help to have such a helpful group!

As I've mentioned before, I tend to over think things, waffle a bit and ask too many questions...

So I'm very concerned about my water. I've been doing some testing and on average after 12-24 hours my readings are-
Ph 6.4 (out of tap 8.4)
Ammonia .5ppm
Nitrite .25ppm
Nitrates 5ppm

I'm really not happy with those readings but apparently that's quite normal for tap water these days? I am going to add some other tests to my arsenal too, like kh, gh and I am going to buy another brand ammonia kit just to compare. Am I worrying too much for these readings?


I'm trying to work out if this is a feasible venture for me, considering how much I work, my dogs and other fish, hobbies and husband! Though I do love a busy life :)

Now I'm wondering/hopeful if the below is the way for both healthy happy discus and have a happy life (and husband).

* Buy the biggest discus I can afford! Probably 3.5-4.5" if not bigger . A group of six as I'm going to be double/triple my budget. Can get more from the same source in the future. Buy them bigger, healthier, easier to keep. I'd rather grow out from small but if it's the difference between this working out and not then I'll do it.

* A big barrel (40-60gal) in my garage for aging, add a large internal filter to this for both aeration and to build up a bacteria colony to start breaking down the ammonia and nitrites.

* Get an ro machine to help, although this will only be 20 gallons or so.

* Water changes 2-3 times a week of around 40 gallons which is 50% each time. More if I can, but 3 times seems probable. Spot cleaning detritus daily.

* Keep them bare bottom for the first couple of months or more while I get used to keeping them and then once more confident, add a thin layer of sand and some more decor and a little bit of greenery. I prefer hardscape over greenery so it would only be a little green.

Thoughts? If this seems like it's not enough then I'll probably have to sadly hold up my hands in defeat for now and step away. I always want to do things properly and it may be that for now, my needs and the Discus' needs don't match.

Are there any types I should avoid/seem weaker? I'm particularly interested in snakeskin/Turks, pigeon bloods/rafflesia, Cobalt blue. I'll happily switch to sturdier types!

[snxtif]

The parameters don't seem so ideal, but it's far from giving up I believe.

I don't think you need to culture beneficial bacteria in your aging tank.
Your dechlorinator (Prime/Safe) would do the same job.
What does suck is, you'd end up with higher nitrate tank eventually.
(some here swear by <5ppm nitrate).
In which,,, guess what, more frequent water change :p

In that case, RO would help a lot, I guess.

[peewee1]

Everyone has good advice. I try the simple approach. Maybe to begin with bare tank with driftwood. The forum sponsors had a certain responsibility to provide quality fish so I'd stay with them. Yes, some strains are more hardy than others. I spoke to Kenny this past week. During our discussion he advised to consider one stronger variety rather than one that would require more maintenance. Maybe find out which fish are going to be stronger in the 3 to 4 inch sizes and begin with those. I wonder about water. For certain a changing schedule is the right thing to do. My fish are happy with the 45% per week that I maintain. I don't age but rather use Prime, but that is just me. I also wonder about when a shipment arrives the fish are shipped to me in a completely different water chemistry than that of their new home. They go from the water in their bag to the tank and seem to be okay with that abrupt change.

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks everyone, I am in the process of deciding what I want to do - my tank will be purchased after we paint the walls in that room, so we don't have to attempt to move it around! Hoping to deal with the painting in the next couple of weeks, so I have a good month to decide, I think.

Am currently working out the best place to put a water ageing tank, probably the garage, as whatever fish I end up keeping, I want to age the water to deal with the huge PH drop.

Am going to go to the LFS on Saturday and see what readings they get from my tap water - just did a Seachem Ammonia test from 24 hour aged water and got 0 free ammonia and I think over 5ppm total ammonia - it turned purple on the dot, and the card only goes up to blue :D I am trying to work out if this is a concern, or if I keep up with 3 or more 50% water changes a week whether the ammonia won't matter. Also trying to decide if I have the time to deal with all the extra work, possible heartache, and if I am trying to get these fish to live in inappropriate conditions. Wondering if I should try something else for a while (more goldfish is certainly very, very tempting...) and then once I have had time to get to know the water and possibly buy a biiig RO filter, try Discus for sure.

I am trying a new LFS on Saturday that apparently has a lot of huge display tanks of various species, so if anything, I may get inspired by a different set up, as I know that if I hold my hands up in (temporary?) defeat with discus that I will be pretty cut up about it! Watch this space, I will update once I have had a third party test done!

[LizStreithorst]

I have never given this recommendation before. It's always advisable for newbies to get large fish to start because newbies make mistakes. But in your case, with your crazy water I think that you start with a group of 6 small ones. My reason is that you know so much more than most newbies. The large fish would be a big investment and if one of the big beautiful ones started getting sick and then died your heart would be broken.

[Alight]

Your pH level changes out of the tap are not a concern. Going from 8+ out of the tap to 7.4 after ageing would be no problem if the 7.4 level does not change much as your nitrates increase (nitrates won't change unless you have fish in your tank and a good biofilter). In a tank with a good biofilter, you will have no ammonia or nitrites because they will converted to nitrates by your biofilter. The nitrates need to be removed when they get over 10 ppm for good healthy discus which is why you need change water often.

You need to test your GH and KH. It is your hardness (GH) and carbonate (KH) levels that will let you understand what is causing the pH swing out of the tap. It is also the carb and hardness levels that you can use to control the pH swings if you need to do so. Harder water is easer to stabilize than softer water. In the past, many discus owners tried for softer water because they thought the discus would only do well in very soft water. However, this has been proven wrong. Very soft water is only needed for hatching fry, and it does not eve have to be very soft in many cases.

Api has a good GH and KH Kit. the worst thing you have in you water is the nitrites. It doesn't take much of this to harm fish. If you have a good biofilter, the levels of nitrites you have will be quickly eliminated.

I don't know how you can go from pH8.2 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates and 1ppm ammonia to PH 7.4, nitrites .25, nitrates 0, ammonia 1ppm. Increasing nitrates would require more ammonia (which should go down as nitrites increase). Check your bucket for contamination if that is what you got. Ammonia can make pH high, but the small amount of ammonia you have should not do that.

Anyway, I think your water conditions can be fixed with out spending much money.

Al Light

[JamesW]

I posted on your other thread with my thoughts. My guess is your utility uses NaOH to prevent pipe corrosion and chloramines for disinfection. This explains the pH drop after aging, and the high ammonia reading (test kits for total ammonia convert ammonia to chloramine before measuring).

I would get a GH and KH kit and maybe even a TDS probe, you likely have wonderful soft source water that your utility has to fiddle with to make sure the lead pipes don't corrode.

Snxtif/Cyrus is correct that you can just use Safe/Prime to detoxify the ammonia but personally if I had a choice between:
Option 1. 0 NH3, 0 NO2 and 15 NO3 water vs
Option 2. 5 NH3, 0 NO2 and 0 NO3 with prime/safe

I would chose option 1 every single time and I don't think I would be alone in that choice. I think you will get option 1 if you have a cycled sponge filter in your aging barrel.

Some believe that nitrate is better thought of as a marker for other bioaccumulating chemicals that hinder growth. Nitrate is just easy to test for and bioaccumulate similarly. You will never achieve 0 ppm nitrate because of your source water but if you are doing large frequent water changes you will be removing all the other gunk, understanding that your baseline nitrate reading might be 10 or 20 ppm.

[LizStreithorst]

I knew that you would understand the problem and have the best suggestion because you really really know water! I'm glad I didn't have to PM you.

Ally, If I were you I would do as he suggests in the number one option. I'd still start with 2 1/2 to 3 inch fish in your case. You could put a divider in the tank so they wouldn't be lost in a large tank. I know the least expensive way to do it.

I have faith in you. You can do this.

[peewee1]

Take a look at the Mercury. $38.00 is not too much to ask for a quality fish.

[Pudmuppy]

Hi everyone!

Well, I am still here and still stubborn. Thanks everyone for so much help so far, am starting to understand water far more than I ever have before! I am reading tons and your clear comments above have really helped.

I went to the LFS and they are strictly on RO water themselves - they specialise in marines and african cichlids so just automatically do RO so they couldn't help too much, but they did test my water (API) and got exactly the same results as I did, so now I am pretty sure it's funky water not funky test kit.

Yesterday, I set up a 5 gallon tank I had kicking around, cleaned it and seeded its filter with some media from my goldfish tank, added Prime. Going to take daily/twice daily readings and see what happens. I am pretty sure it will go through the usual new tank spike though so may not get completely accurate results at first.

So last night straight after setting up the results were:
PH 7.6 (lower than every other tap test I have done, because why be consistent...?)
Ammonia 1ppm
Nitrites .25ppm
Nitrates 5ppm

This morning ( 12h aged)
PH 6 (Whut. It's never dropped before 6.4 before today...)
Ammonia .5ppm
Nitrites .25ppm
Nitrates 5ppm

So a significant change in both PH - which is annoying, because it always used to be 8.0 dropping to 6.4 consistently overnight, now it has gone from 7.8 to 6.... and in ammonia, however I think that will be the Prime locking it up - yet no raise in nitrates.

I am writing everything down to see if I can find the pattern, and start to understand the process a bit better. I am also really, really hoping to see the ammonia obliterated.

Going to look more into RO water and what the actual cost of running one for frequent water changes would be here. I really don't want to go this route because of the waste water, but I can probably use this water in the garden and a bit for my goldfish if the ammonia can be removed by the filter quickly.

Still trying desperately to get this to work! Going to see what the results are of the small empty tank over the next couple of weeks. If that ammonia goes away, I am laughing!

Should I feed the empty tank at all? Or will the bacteria feast happily on just the ammonia already present?

[JamesW]

Do you think you could get your LFS to test the GH and KH of the water from either straight out of the tap or from your goldfish tank?

It might take a little while for them to go away but the (small) drop in the ammonia is promising! I would wait until your ammonia and nitrite readings are 0 then do a 100% WC (you can use this water for your goldfish) and repeat to see how quickly you can drop the more hazardous species to 0. The bacteria that are doing the converting to nitrite then nitrate also use some KH from your water or CO2 from the air. Once you know your KH, if it is low (1-2) it might be worth adding a bag of crushed coral to your aging tank and future discus tank filters to prevent a pH crash.

[Pudmuppy]

Do you think you could get your LFS to test the GH and KH of the water from either straight out of the tap or from your goldfish tank?

It might take a little while for them to go away but the (small) drop in the ammonia is promising! I would wait until your ammonia and nitrite readings are 0 then do a 100% WC (you can use this water for your goldfish) and repeat to see how quickly you can drop the more hazardous species to 0. The bacteria that are doing the converting to nitrite then nitrate also use some KH from your water or CO2 from the air. Once you know your KH, if it is low (1-2) it might be worth adding a bag of crushed coral to your aging tank and future discus tank filters to prevent a pH crash.

Thanks James - I have actually ordered my own GH and KH kit so that should hopefully arrive tomorrow! Do you think the ammonia drop could be from the Prime? I will be watching the water very closely :) I will do the 100% wc when it hits 0 as suggested. I already have some coral kicking around as I use a small amount for the goldies already, so that's easily done. Watch this space!

[LizStreithorst]

You will get this all figured out and have a beautiful tank full of Discus. I'm addicted to this thread so I'll be watching as you figure things out.

Isn't this forum amazing. When one of us doesn't know something, someone else does. I love it when people come here wanting to learn and the right smart person who love to teach shows up at the nick if time.

I'm proud of you, too. When you want something you go after finding a way like a Pit Bull. You're ferocious. Heck if I'd have been in your shoes I'd have just stuck with Gold Fish.

[JamesW]

Thanks James - I have actually ordered my own GH and KH kit so that should hopefully arrive tomorrow! Do you think the ammonia drop could be from the Prime? I will be watching the water very closely :) I will do the 100% wc when it hits 0 as suggested. I already have some coral kicking around as I use a small amount for the goldies already, so that's easily done. Watch this space!

Was the ammonia test total or free?

Prime convert ammonia to a third non-toxic version that is slowly decomposed over ~24h and releases free ammonia back into the water and it is consumed by the filter as soon as it is released. A total ammonia test kit, accelerates the release so the ammonia locked up by prime is still detected by the test kit.

TLDR: If you used a total ammonia test kit the ammonia drop isn't from the Prime. If you used a 'free' ammonia kit then the ammonia drop could be from the Prime, I don't know how that one works.

[Pudmuppy]

James, it is the API test, which I believe will be Total. I have also done several checks with the Seachem test kit which shows both total and free - it always shows 0 free and over 3ppm total for my tap water, so I am pretty confident there is no free. That's interesting that you think it isn't from the Prime - there is hope yet!

Liz, one of the reasons I am fighting to make this work is so I have an excuse to keep hanging out on this forum! I haven't met a friendlier, more helpful group and I want to stay :)
I like to solve problems, I bet I wouldn't be half as interested in fishkeeping if it wasn't the need for constant tinkering to produce the happiest, healthiest fish. If it was a case of plonking some bright coloured fish in a glass box and sitting watching them (although I do like that part too!), then I am sure I would be bored stiff!

I do find I need to immerse myself totally into a hobby, it needs to have some depth to keep my interest. Although I do believe that if this was a situation where my tank was in my house, up and running and ready for fish, then I wouldn't be doing so much investigation - I would have either risked it and gotten some discus in there and worked it out as I went (or not worked!) or would have jumped into my other favourite fish - which still may happen anyway, depending on how I feel about the water over the next couple of weeks. I like fish :) It would/will either be angelfish and guianacara/geophagus or an excuse for more big fat goldfish :D

Water readings last night were pretty much the same as before, but I will report back when I get my KH/GH test!

I should also take a moment to give my husband some kudos - when we went to the LFS, they happened to have the brand of tank there that I am getting and he fell in love... and stood in front of the 145 gallon version and *Very Seriously* considered upgrading to it (I didn't even ask!!!!!) The only thing that really stopped him, is that it is very big and would dominate our living room a bit too much - but he did say that it was a big probability we would get that one if we moved to another house (Which is likely in a few years). Yaaaay, I am winning him over into the world of big tanks :)

[Cove Beach]

Something else to consider, if you do take the RO route. Bulk Reef Supply makes a kit that adds a second membrane that filters the waste water a second time which increases product water and cuts water going down the drain. I run one on both my drinking water RO and the one for the fish when I had marine tanks and for breeding tanks for discus.

[JamesW]

Any update?

[Pudmuppy]

Hello James, everyone!

I've been quietly (well, not quietly, but anxiously!) keeping an eye on the 5 gallon tank I set up as a test tank... I have been treating it like a new set up and seeing what the results would be with the water parameters. I seeded it with some Fluval biomax rings from my goldfish tank, and also added half a box of new Fluval rings and a new scrubby sponge.

It has been up and running now for seven days, no water changes and these are the results from the past three days:

22nd:
PH 7
Ammonia .5
Nitrite .5
Nitrate 5
GH 6
KH 2
(Readings each day previously were exactly the same as this except PH normally 6.8)

Then on the 23rd, things started to change..... a white film appeared on the surface which is always exciting, although I think that might be from the Prime as it also appeared on my betta 5 gallon tank

23rd:
PH 6.8
Ammonia .25
Nitrite between 0-.25
Nitrate between 0-5
GH 6
KH 3

24th:
(I did a top of of tap water with prime yesterday due to evaporation)
PH 6.8
Amm .25
Nitrite 0
Nitrate between 0-5 but closer to 0
Didn't check GH and KH)

For reference, tap water that has been aged for 24 hours with no prime added comes out at
GH 6
KH 5


Would it be wise to start changing out some of the water yet, or best to let it do it's thing till I have zero nitrites and nitrates?

I had expected with the ammonia drop to see a rise in nitrites, but maybe that will come soon.

I have been chatting with husband - He nearly went for the 140 gallon! He was pretty much set on it, until he realised that it was going to be too big for us to move around ourselves, and as we are thinking we will be moving at some point in the next few years, it seemed like a hassle and I agree. He may be up for adding a second 70 gallon in the future though! - and the train of thought is still to do RO water. I need to think about it a bit more and work out where I could actually set something up, but I think all my fish will thank me.

Interestingly, I added more fluval ceramics to my goldfish tank two days ago and today the water is *sparking* so they are doing their job! May just have needed a bigger surface for bacteria there - going to do a test on this tank tomorrow and see what the results are there too.

Getting angsty now as to what to do though. I keep seeing people selling pinoy angelfish and thinking I should just grab them instead... but I would rather have both :) Good thing the small test tank isn't showing good results yet as I may have just caved and grabbed a ton of angels to pop into quarantine ;)

I am thinking that things are getting there, albeit slowly, but it will be interesting to see what happens once the tank is stable and I do a 100% water change, how fast it can break down the ammonia.

Our walls are being painted in three weeks time, so I will be getting the tank around then, then setting up for probably 3 weeks+ running empty (or with goldfish!) till it establishes, so I still have a lot of play time / science time.

[JamesW]

Your GH and KH are good, water is soft without being too soft. It looks like your cycle is starting in your 5 gallon tank, I would do a small (20-35%) WC and wait until ammonia and nitrite read 0. Once you get there you can do a 100% WC and wait and watch. You will never get 0 nitrates that is your end point but zero ammonia and nitrites are what you need before fish or in your case water for a WC.

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks for your advice, James - I ended up doing about 20% change yesterday (with Prime) - and then today's results were up where they were originally (PH 6.4, Amm .5, nitrites .5, Nitrates 5...) Which was highly frustrating but expected to some degree... however, out of frustration I decided to test Ammonia in my goldfish tank which had a 40% wc yesterday (and tends to get 20% every couple of days anyway) and to my very much surprise, Ammonia was between 0 and .25, probably closer to 0 where before it has always sat at .5 I added a large quantity of Fluval biomax ceramic rings to their biowheel filter about a week ago, just because I bought a new pack for this water experiment and thought it couldn't hurt, now I am thinking of throwing in the remainder of the pack to see if I simply need to be working in larger quantities of material than I thought.

Still, it's kinda exciting and it gives me more hope for the ageing barrel/filter combination working. I won't touch the experiment tank unless I really need to top up some of the water (and then I might use some bottled RO water I have) and see what the results are like for the next week.

I am noticing more and more people on different forums running into the same problem, chloramines in the tap water and it also being variable by weather... I really hope some savvy fishkeeping scientist comes up with a solution other than RO!

[Pudmuppy]

... am still here :D Am still undecided on my final stock... I keep changing my mind, but then I come here and see such beautiful fish it pulls me back in....

My test tank was a total failure - I ended up throwing in 20+ snails a week ago unexpectedly - I ordered them online but asked for them to be held for at least a couple of weeks as it is too hot here, they ended up in my metal letterbox all day so I panicked when I realised what they were and threw them into the first available healthy body of water. Only lost two (and whoah can they poop). Then my betta sorority had a scuffle and it turned out one of them was actually a very small undercolored male so he too is now swimming in my experiment tank. No point measuring readings now!

Last night I set up a 20 gallon tote in my garage which I am planning on using to age water whether I do Discus or not, and tonight I will move a chunk of the media from the test tank to a new filter and get that up and running again as though starting from scratch - I am sure it will mature a lot faster though with the old media though. Then in a week or so I hope to recheck how quickly I can get rid of the ammonia.

Friday 16th the painters are coming to do the walls, so this weekend it is time to do some purchasing!!! I intend for the tank to arrive around or after the painters are finished so it can go straight in to its spot and start cycling - then I might actually get closer to making a decision (or not)

I did have a question - I absolutely love how wild discus look, stunning. I am not going down that path yet though. Would you say that alenquers are the closest looking to wild discus or are there other types?
Are wild discus hard to keep coloration over successive generations? I am intrigued as to why you don't see many F1, 2, 3 captive bred but still wild looking.

[LizStreithorst]

If you decide to go with Discus I think that you should look at Discus Hans' fish. He only imports from Stendker in Germany. He carries a Stendker Tefe's. They look nothing like wild Tefes, but to me they look the closest to wilds as you can get.

Wilds are very hard to keep and breed without perfect water conditions. Even in perfect conditions it is hard to give them what they need to be comfortable enough to breed. I think that Pat once had wilds breed for her.

I have been waiting to see an up-date from you. I thought that you would have better news about the water problem. I'm sad for you. You worked very hard. In your case I would buy smaller fish and see how they do. I'm rooting for you!

[Pudmuppy]

If you decide to go with Discus I think that you should look at Discus Hans' fish. He only imports from Stendker in Germany. He carries a Stendker Tefe's. They look nothing like wild Tefes, but to me they look the closest to wilds as you can get.

Wilds are very hard to keep and breed without perfect water conditions. Even in perfect conditions it is hard to give them what they need to be comfortable enough to breed. I think that Pat once had wilds breed for her.

I have been waiting to see an up-date from you. I thought that you would have better news about the water problem. I'm sad for you. You worked very hard. In your case I would buy smaller fish and see how they do. I'm rooting for you!


That's actually quite amusing that you mention Hans, as I was just on his website today after not having been in quite some time and I do in fact think I will go with Hans -I just need to check and see what his shipping charges would be (I can imagine, similar to most!).

I am feeling a little less concerned about the water situation recently, have been chatting with different people and it sounds like as long as the filter is mature and the water changes are done and Prime is used, then the ammonia will be taken care of. Adding a filter into the ageing barrel will just make it even easier. We will see!

Thanks for the information about the Tefe - I had a look at them and I think I do actually prefer the look of the Alenquer - however, while I was browsing around Han's page this morning, I came across a type I haven't really seen before - the Dark Angel and I am totally and utterly head over heels in love. I covet! :D I had been thinking I would stick to just one or two different types, but at this rate I may be getting one of each as I don't know if I can choose... I also saw his Silver Pigeonblood and that is another one that is ridiculously beautiful. Along with cobalt, checkerboard, snakeskins, eruptions..... you know how it goes. But I will for sure be trying to get at least one Dark Angel and a Silver or a Blue Pigeonblood!

[peewee1]

That's actually quite amusing that you mention Hans, as I was just on his website today after not having been in quite some time and I do in fact think I will go with Hans -I just need to check and see what his shipping charges would be (I can imagine, similar to most!).

I am feeling a little less concerned about the water situation recently, have been chatting with different people and it sounds like as long as the filter is mature and the water changes are done and Prime is used, then the ammonia will be taken care of. Adding a filter into the ageing barrel will just make it even easier. We will see!

Thanks for the information about the Tefe - I had a look at them and I think I do actually prefer the look of the Alenquer - however, while I was browsing around Han's page this morning, I came across a type I haven't really seen before - the Dark Angel and I am totally and utterly head over heels in love. I covet! :D I had been thinking I would stick to just one or two different types, but at this rate I may be getting one of each as I don't know if I can choose... I also saw his Silver Pigeonblood and that is another one that is ridiculously beautiful. Along with cobalt, checkerboard, snakeskins, eruptions..... you know how it goes. But I will for sure be trying to get at least one Dark Angel and a Silver or a Blue Pigeonblood!

So many beautiful fish to choose from. I had the Dark Angel on my wish list. There is an Asian version of this fish, Mercury. You might take a look at them on Kenny's site. I began raising and breeding wild Heckel discus. Went away from it for a time. When I came back I chose the hybrid colors. I would get the Dark Angel, however. For me I am transitioning back to wild cross varieties but the Dark Angel, or Mercury, is still number one on my list when I get more room. By the way the Alenquer is a wild cross. I have 3 different ones in my tank. Look for the Red Alenquer with halo one day.

[JamesW]

Haha from wilds to one of the newer strains out there!

Regardless it'll be great! I think you are on the right track with the water, a mature sponge in your aging barrel and prime when you add it to the tank you should be in a good spot!

[Pudmuppy]

So many beautiful fish to choose from. I had the Dark Angel on my wish list. There is an Asian version of this fish, Mercury. You might take a look at them on Kenny's site. I began raising and breeding wild Heckel discus. Went away from it for a time. When I came back I chose the hybrid colors. I would get the Dark Angel, however. For me I am transitioning back to wild cross varieties but the Dark Angel, or Mercury, is still number one on my list when I get more room. By the way the Alenquer is a wild cross. I have 3 different ones in my tank. Look for the Red Alenquer with halo one day.

I had a look at the Mercury too, thanks for the name! Also beautiful.... it's crazy how gorgeous these fish are. I am starting to wonder if one day I might be confident enough to try wilds, and/or altum angels too, all absolutely stunning. I had a look for the Red Alenquer with halo on google... oh my! You aren't helping me decide! I also have been looking at alenquer cupeua... not sure if that's just another name or a slightly different color profile, but ugh, too pretty.....

[Pudmuppy]

Haha from wilds to one of the newer strains out there!

Regardless it'll be great! I think you are on the right track with the water, a mature sponge in your aging barrel and prime when you add it to the tank you should be in a good spot!

I raise my hand up and confess I am a professional artist with a huge interest in color, and am also a magpie when it comes to shiny things so yes.... from wilds to dark angels is not surprising :D I am trying to decide if I want to be sensible and just start with a few colors, or a wild looking group, or try one of each in the anticipation that there is probably going to be some losses anyway and then in the future I can make a more certain decision.... Don't know, but it is fun deciding!

[LizStreithorst]

You look like an artist, Ally.

[peewee1]

I raise my hand up and confess I am a professional artist with a huge interest in color, and am also a magpie when it comes to shiny things so yes.... from wilds to dark angels is not surprising :D I am trying to decide if I want to be sensible and just start with a few colors, or a wild looking group, or try one of each in the anticipation that there is probably going to be some losses anyway and then in the future I can make a more certain decision.... Don't know, but it is fun deciding!

One more I want you to consider is the Stripe Alenquer. Look for an adult coloring. The wild crosses from Hans or Kenny are not any harder to keep than any of the others, With the except of the Heckels. If you are set on ordering from Hans I suspect he would tell you which to stay away from for the time being. Kenny will also always give his opinion as the hardiness of his fish as well. If you like blue then the Blue Scorpion and the Neon Sapphire are very pretty. Also the Albino Millennium Gold is a lemon color with pale blue and crimson tipping on the fins and not subject to peppering. I still like the Dark Angel or the Mercury cousin.

[Second Hand Pat]

One more I want you to consider is the Stripe Alenquer. Look for an adult coloring. The wild crosses from Hans or Kenny are not any harder to keep than any of the others, With the except of the Heckels. If you are set on ordering from Hans I suspect he would tell you which to stay away from for the time being. Kenny will also always give his opinion as the hardiness of his fish as well. If you like blue then the Blue Scorpion and the Neon Sapphire are very pretty. Also the Albino Millennium Gold is a lemon color with pale blue and crimson tipping on the fins and not subject to peppering. I still like the Dark Angel or the Mercury cousin.

Actually any wild cross is still a domestic discus which include all Heckel crosses. This means that any cross is not any harder to keep then domestic discus.
Pat

[Pudmuppy]

You look like an artist, Ally.

Haha, thanks, Liz. Every so often I try to be more "normal" but it never lasts long....

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks everyone for continuing to keep this conversation interesting, it's half the fun reading all the different stories and opinions.

Having a pretty good week so far; the livingroom walls are painted, the tank has been ordered (eee!) and very exciting - the small ageing barrel I set up last week seems to be helping the ammonia battle. The readings still show a small amount of ammonia but I believe it's total ammonia and not free, so I am happy. I hadn't done a water change on the barrel for a week and got those results - yesterday I did a 50% change and will read today. Explained to husband that I wanted a 50 gallon+ barrel in the garage for water changes and he didn't even blink before he said yes - he is getting as excited as I am.

Have been chatting to Discus Hans and he has answered a few more questions including the chloramine issue and he recommended Cloram-x, which I have ordered. I am 95% sure I will be getting my fish from him - I really want one of the Stendker Dark Angels for sure! Now I am just trying to decide if I want to handpick 8 myself or do his 10 "his pick" for the same price to account for possible (probable!) losses going forward.... he has said that he would do his best to make sure there was an angel in that pick. I kinda like the idea of leaving the selection to chance, as I can't seem to chose myself, we will see.

Photo of lovely new wall where the tank will be going - the stand is just the right height that the top of the stand is in line with the top of the sofa which is lovely:)

[LizStreithorst]

If I were buying the fish for myself I would want to select the ones I like best.

[danotaylor]

Hans typically doesn't do individual pics or vid of fish...ya just have to trust him...so whether you get his 10 pick, or pick 8 strains you want to keep, Hans still does the picking.

[LizStreithorst]

I had forgotten that, Danny. Now that you mention it, you're correct.

[danotaylor]

Thx Liz. I think I would still rather pick 8 fish of a few diff strains that I know I like the look of than get 10 fish, and possibly not like half of them. Those you don't like as much will detract from the beauty of the ones you do like. Just my 2c worth, lol :D

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks guys, you are right - I will probably pick the ones I want rather than leave it to chance, as I know I want a Cobalt or Blue Diamond (or a Flachen - is the main difference that the Flachen gets more of a green tint?), at least one Dark Angel, a Silver Pigeonblood and I think a couple of Tefe too after all. I keep changing my mind! I'm pretty torn with getting one of each to see what they look like, or getting them in a group which I actually prefer the look of, but don't want to limit my choices right now ;)

However, I think it would be better that I get ones I have chosen specifically. I think I will get 8 but might go for a couple more if I really can't decide, and whittle them down later as I have favourites.

Husband was very hilarious when I broached the actual cost of the fish with him yesterday. He just made a strange face and said that he won't ask me about the cost of the fish if I don't ask him the cost of his spaceships in the game he plays (he buys special rare ones with real money). Now I am rather intrigued to know the cost of his spaceships....

Got an email notification that my tank will be shipped soon! Guessing next week some time. Really excited now!

[swright135]

I recently ordered Hans pick 10 and he allowed me to pick the strains I wanted. I emailed him and he said as long as he has enough stock I could get the ones I wanted. Try contacting him.

The Flachens are more of greenish hue and very pretty.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm not crazy about the PB strains but I have to admit a good White Pigeon is very beautiful. I won't say what I think about the Dark Angels, although I can also see their appeal.

I really like your other choices, especially the Stendker Tefe's. I know that they're totally domestic, but they do have a wild look to them. But I am not you. You have plenty to choose from to get the look you want.

I'm excited, too.

[Pudmuppy]

I recently ordered Hans pick 10 and he allowed me to pick the strains I wanted. I emailed him and he said as long as he has enough stock I could get the ones I wanted. Try contacting him.

The Flachens are more of greenish hue and very pretty.

I contacted Hans and he did say that he would be happy for me to make a suggestion for a couple of additions, I couldn't chose each one which is more than fair enough! I am thinking I am going to pick out each one myself instead, and possibly even get a group of 10 to start rather than the 8 I was planning, we will see. I still can't decide if I want to try 1 of each of my favourite types, or a couple of each of my most favourite types. I also keep changing my mind which are my favourites, which is why I did like the idea of doing a random grab bag so that Hans could make the decision for me....

[Pudmuppy]

I'm not crazy about the PB strains but I have to admit a good White Pigeon is very beautiful. I won't say what I think about the Dark Angels, although I can also see their appeal.

I really like your other choices, especially the Stendker Tefe's. I know that they're totally domestic, but they do have a wild look to them. But I am not you. You have plenty to choose from to get the look you want.

I'm excited, too.

I think the white pigeon may be my favourite, it is just so gorgeous. I am mildly concerned about peppering in pigeons against my slate walls, but it's quite a light shade and will have white sand in the tank (eventually). If it is looking to be an issue I will just add backing onto the tank.
I can certainly see a lot of people not being fans of the dark angel, but I think they look like they are watercolours, and being so very different than the others I have to try at least one! Some videos of them as adults are stunning, with their blush noses and blue backs :)
I am really intrigued by the tefe - every time I see a nicely done set up with true wilds I feel the pull, (especially Pat's!) but that is for another day. I have seen some amazing tefe/wild type set up videos and really want to do that as well, but being so new to the hobby, I want to try one of everything. It's Discus Pokemon!

[LizStreithorst]

Those of us who are not fond of Dark Angels is because, at least imo, because they are PB's and the strain has not been refined to the point that the peppering isn't noticeable. The cool thing about them is that they look pastel bluish pink. I expect that you will have to do something about your background color.

Be sure to paint the bottom of your tank. White would be a good choice. I'd paint the back, too. But paint is a pain to remove if you decide you don't like it. Shoot, you're an artist you could paint white sand with a planted background. That would be way cool.

[danotaylor]

If the quality of the PB's is reasonably high you shouldn't see too much peppering produced from the environment they're in. I know many people speak of it but in my experience (which is minimal in the grand scheme of things) I have not encountered it. I have a 125gal with the back painted black. I have several solid discus that are PB strains that are by no means show grade fish but are reasonably high quality...red melon, royal yellow, red panda...none of them have any noticeable peppering on their bodies, just the tell tale black in their finnage. In my case the black background has not noticeably affected them. Just my experience...

[Pudmuppy]

... tank has arrived and it is beyoootiful! (Photos will follow, however husband took them as I am *appallingly* bad with a camera)

Husband ended up building most of the cabinet - he went into "male mode" and decided to take over, which I was fine with as it was 10pm and I didn't want to build anymore!
I had been really nervous about lifting 140lbs of glass, but I bought some of those glass suction handle things and it was actually much easier than I thought. It is now sitting empty as my filtration hasn't arrived yet

The bottom already had a black velvet layer added so I didn't want to paint or anything. I will see how things go with the dark ground and the darker wall, but am ready to add a vinyl layer to the back of the tank if it looks like the fish are remaining too dark or peppering, and will add a thin layer of white sand if the base is affecting them too. No painting the tank, too scary!

I think I am in the minority in that I don't mind peppering, unless it was on something like a checkerboard that has very stark and clear colour differences, but if it develops and it is an easy fix then I will of course try remedy it

I am still very torn as to which ones to actually get, I know three types that I really want to try, but the others change on a day to day basis when I browse through photos.... two of each, please!

I would have loved to try yellows as that's my favourite colour but the Stendker don't seem to come in yellow - and very annoyingly, Uncle Sam's Discus is having a sale right now with some very nice looking yellows which has confused my decisions too, of course! I am aware that keeping them yellow is quite hard as well.
As an afterthought, what do people think of Uncle Sam's Discus? My tank doesn't even have water in it, but that sale is tempting - I do have my ageing barrel with filter set up and I have a second filter running in my Q tank with one fighter fish in it that I could transfer to the main tank and take advantage of that sale.... However, I do like the Stendker so much.... hmmm.

I waffle on too much, I know! I think I will start up an actual tank diary post next, to contain the waffling to a more appropriate place!

[danotaylor]

Ally 1 thing to keep in mind with yellow discus is that you cannot feed most commercially prepared flake, pellet and frozen mixed foods as pretty much all of them contain astaxanthin (carotene) which will turn your yellow fish orange. Just a thought for your planning :D
Here is 2 pics of my marlb yellow. The 1st was when I just received it from Dennis, the 2nd after 6 months of feeding home made deer heart mixed with fluval cichlid flakes.
124650

124651

The difference in the quality of the yellow is quite obvious I think as a result of the astaxanthin in the flake I used...

[peewee1]

... tank has arrived and it is beyoootiful! (Photos will follow, however husband took them as I am *appallingly* bad with a camera)

Husband ended up building most of the cabinet - he went into "male mode" and decided to take over, which I was fine with as it was 10pm and I didn't want to build anymore!
I had been really nervous about lifting 140lbs of glass, but I bought some of those glass suction handle things and it was actually much easier than I thought. It is now sitting empty as my filtration hasn't arrived yet

The bottom already had a black velvet layer added so I didn't want to paint or anything. I will see how things go with the dark ground and the darker wall, but am ready to add a vinyl layer to the back of the tank if it looks like the fish are remaining too dark or peppering, and will add a thin layer of white sand if the base is affecting them too. No painting the tank, too scary!

I think I am in the minority in that I don't mind peppering, unless it was on something like a checkerboard that has very stark and clear colour differences, but if it develops and it is an easy fix then I will of course try remedy it

I am still very torn as to which ones to actually get, I know three types that I really want to try, but the others change on a day to day basis when I browse through photos.... two of each, please!

I would have loved to try yellows as that's my favourite colour but the Stendker don't seem to come in yellow - and very annoyingly, Uncle Sam's Discus is having a sale right now with some very nice looking yellows which has confused my decisions too, of course! I am aware that keeping them yellow is quite hard as well.
As an afterthought, what do people think of Uncle Sam's Discus? My tank doesn't even have water in it, but that sale is tempting - I do have my ageing barrel with filter set up and I have a second filter running in my Q tank with one fighter fish in it that I could transfer to the main tank and take advantage of that sale.... However, I do like the Stendker so much.... hmmm.

I waffle on too much, I know! I think I will start up an actual tank diary post next, to contain the waffling to a more appropriate place!

Ally, I have had good luck with the Albino Millennium Golds that I got from Kenny this past October. No peppering, even with black sand, and the color holds true. I am feeding them frozen and freeze dried blood worms, frozen brine shrimp, occasional beef heart, freeze dried Black Worms, Hikari Vibra Bites and Discus Bio-Gold. Most of those foods should inhibit the redish hue. Not with these AMGs. Other fish in the tank include Alenquer, Red Alenquer, and Red Heckel of which I am trying to enhance the red tint with the same foods.

[danotaylor]

Norm I just checked out the ingredients of Vibra Bites which has astaxanthin, and biogold has carotene. Both of those ingredients will enhance red's turning yellow fish orange. Your other choices of frozen & freeze dried foods should inhibit the enhancement of reds, unless the BH is commercially produced, then it likely has either or both of those enhancers.

[LizStreithorst]

I met the Uncle Sam's folks at NADA in Chicago. I found them to be honest. Do a search here on Simply, Everyone who has purchased fish from them have nothing but good to say. It they have albion golds that would be a good way to go,

It's a good thing that you don't mind peppering

[Pudmuppy]

Still alive, still reading here daily, still cycling tank - but it's close!

I bailed on discus briefly for a few days there - I had a strange incident in my quarantine tank where I lost three angels that had been doing great - they were actually due to join my other angels the next day but when I looked at them - dead! Then I lost one of my female fighters in another tank and I convinced myself that I am just going to stunt or kill discus... then husband actually pointed out that even if that did happen, it would be horrible, then live, learn, get up again, buy more discus. Feeling better and back to reading up!

I have (another!!!) question. I am starting to decide what strains I would like to try. I am going to go with Stendker. I am considering doing Hans 10 pack special as I can't decide, but I am also a big fan of the single, or two strain tanks. I have also been reading that if I did get any pairs in the future, a pigeon crossed with a non-pigeon will result in pretty ugly babies. So I am trying to decide if I want to risk that in the assumption I will not breed this lot, or get all non pigeons, or perhaps get all pigeons - my question is really whether if I happened to have say a pigeon blood blue and a pigeon blood silver that bred, is this likely to keep peppering low? Can one cross between the different pigeon strains without dirty babies and is it only with a non pb that the problem reemerges?

[JamesW]

Any breeding that happens will be a happy and exciting surprise!

I wouldn't limit yourself on what you like based on hypothetical, potential breeding pairs that might some day form and possible give you fry that survive and grow out. Get the strains you like and enjoy the experience!

[Mando]

Still alive, still reading here daily, still cycling tank - but it's close!

I bailed on discus briefly for a few days there - I had a strange incident in my quarantine tank where I lost three angels that had been doing great - they were actually due to join my other angels the next day but when I looked at them - dead! Then I lost one of my female fighters in another tank and I convinced myself that I am just going to stunt or kill discus... then husband actually pointed out that even if that did happen, it would be horrible, then live, learn, get up again, buy more discus. Feeling better and back to reading up!

I have (another!!!) question. I am starting to decide what strains I would like to try. I am going to go with Stendker. I am considering doing Hans 10 pack special as I can't decide, but I am also a big fan of the single, or two strain tanks. I have also been reading that if I did get any pairs in the future, a pigeon crossed with a non-pigeon will result in pretty ugly babies. So I am trying to decide if I want to risk that in the assumption I will not breed this lot, or get all non pigeons, or perhaps get all pigeons - my question is really whether if I happened to have say a pigeon blood blue and a pigeon blood silver that bred, is this likely to keep peppering low? Can one cross between the different pigeon strains without dirty babies and is it only with a non pb that the problem reemerges?

Welcome, Ally!

I think that you should put breeding to the side when selecting fish as a hobbyist and learn with less expensive fish. Now, if you want to make money from breeding, then, sure, be super selective. Selective ='s $$$. The only thing I do not like about pigeons is the peppering. Now a days you could find some nice PB strains that have light to no peppering at all. If you do happen to breed PB's with peppering you will have to cull the peppered ones. Breed those off springs, and do the same process again until peppering is removed. I have a nice PB pair, they had no peppering when I bought them and unfortunately I put them in a black-bottom, black-background tank and the female peppered. The male has like 1 spec here and there almost unnoticeable. As far as patterns, I don't mind. That's the joy of breeding. However, I agree with you and the peppering.

This is them not peppered

124988

and then peppered. Photo posted sideways and not sure how to fix it. This is them spawning.
124989

[Pudmuppy]

Hi guys, thanks for your answers about fish selection - very true, I am thinking a bit too hard about things at this stage and looking too far ahead - I'm going to try and focus more on actually getting some fish and keeping them alive and healthy and not stunted for the time being... I am not intentionally looking to breed, it was more a case of if it happens then I will explore that a bit more.

MY tank is still sitting empty, although I do have some sand and a manzanita branch in there now - husband has insisted that we have something on the base, but I don't mind and will just up the cleaning on the base. It seems to show up every spec of dirt too, which is a good thing so I can find it! I haven't pulled the trigger yet on the fish as I am both extremely busy and getting used to looking after a large tank, and also it is still cycling although I am starting to get a lot of nitrites and nitrates showing and very little ammonia, so we are close. I have a couple of days off in a fortnight so that may be a good time...

I also won't lie, I am pretty nervous about how much effort and time is needed for discus, not to mention that even people that do it perfectly will come home and a fish is sick/died... I guess all one can do is jump in with both feet, learn, and deal with anything that comes their way so that in the future they know a little bit more. Oh, and hang out here loads too :D

[Mando]

Hi guys, thanks for your answers about fish selection - very true, I am thinking a bit too hard about things at this stage and looking too far ahead - I'm going to try and focus more on actually getting some fish and keeping them alive and healthy and not stunted for the time being... I am not intentionally looking to breed, it was more a case of if it happens then I will explore that a bit more.

MY tank is still sitting empty, although I do have some sand and a manzanita branch in there now - husband has insisted that we have something on the base, but I don't mind and will just up the cleaning on the base. It seems to show up every spec of dirt too, which is a good thing so I can find it! I haven't pulled the trigger yet on the fish as I am both extremely busy and getting used to looking after a large tank, and also it is still cycling although I am starting to get a lot of nitrites and nitrates showing and very little ammonia, so we are close. I have a couple of days off in a fortnight so that may be a good time...

I also won't lie, I am pretty nervous about how much effort and time is needed for discus, not to mention that even people that do it perfectly will come home and a fish is sick/died... I guess all one can do is jump in with both feet, learn, and deal with anything that comes their way so that in the future they know a little bit more. Oh, and hang out here loads too :D

Sooner or later, passion kicks in and you will be bending over backwards for these fish. In the eyes of non-discus keepers or non-aquarist individuals, it's a lot of work. But, can an enthusiast really say it's work? I enjoy what I do for these fish and I LOVE spending my time on the weekends going to fish stores, upgrading systems, cleaning the tanks/pond, and, not to mention, DIY projects. When I do have a little time for TV, I find myself slowly shifting my attention to my tanks. This morning I woke up and did three water changes for my three tanks and there is nothing better than sipping coffee and watching your fish at 5am.

It does not feel like work.

[14Discus]

I agree.....get what you like and worry abt breeding later. IMHO, get the largest fish you can afford bc if you are worried abt WCs etc, and the time spent factor, adults require fewer changes than the grow-outs or smaller mid-sized fish. You will still have to do WCs in order to be successful with adults, but fewer are needed. Also, stunting is not an issue much with larger fish. My yellows tank is gorgeous and I keep them yellow by feeding them freeze dried Austr blackworms which have no color enhancing ingredients. Al sells the plain worms here at this site. You could even feed this to a tank w both reds and yellows and the two colors should remain true. Since I have the desire to bring out the reds of my Red Eagles etc, I also have a tank with reds and blues so I can feed color enhanced foods to bring out the reds. You are wise to be thinking abt this before getting fish and for getting your tank cycled ready.

[Pudmuppy]

Sooner or later, passion kicks in and you will be bending over backwards for these fish. In the eyes of non-discus keepers or non-aquarist individuals, it's a lot of work. But, can an enthusiast really say it's work? I enjoy what I do for these fish and I LOVE spending my time on the weekends going to fish stores, upgrading systems, cleaning the tanks/pond, and, not to mention, DIY projects. When I do have a little time for TV, I find myself slowly shifting my attention to my tanks. This morning I woke up and did three water changes for my three tanks and there is nothing better than sipping coffee and watching your fish at 5am.

It does not feel like work.

I don't know why I am worrying so much, as I actually really enjoy water changes - my goldfish and newts get at least three a week (but on a smaller scale!) It is very therapeutic, I agree... I think I just need to get into the swing of things and stop stressing :D I am already thinking about getting up earlier in the morning to get my daily household stuff done, so I am free to do fun stuff in the evenings more.

... and if anyone wants a funny story, I was doing a water change yesterday while husband was on the sofa right in front of the tank - I got a bit complacent when pulling on the hose that just filled up the tank and it flipped out of the water and threw some splatters of water across the room and onto him and the dogs.... I did squeak a warning before it hit them, but the dogs flew across the room in horror... husband, surprisingly, just lifted an eyebrow and went back to the ipad... bodes well for future incidents, I think? :D

[Mando]

I don't know why I am worrying so much, as I actually really enjoy water changes - my goldfish and newts get at least three a week (but on a smaller scale!) It is very therapeutic, I agree... I think I just need to get into the swing of things and stop stressing :D I am already thinking about getting up earlier in the morning to get my daily household stuff done, so I am free to do fun stuff in the evenings more.

... and if anyone wants a funny story, I was doing a water change yesterday while husband was on the sofa right in front of the tank - I got a bit complacent when pulling on the hose that just filled up the tank and it flipped out of the water and threw some splatters of water across the room and onto him and the dogs.... I did squeak a warning before it hit them, but the dogs flew across the room in horror... husband, surprisingly, just lifted an eyebrow and went back to the ipad... bodes well for future incidents, I think? :D

LOL @ husbands reaction. I had the same thing happen to me two days ago with my new tank. As the water level increased, the hose started to float and shift outwards until it got me in the back. I was facing watching the news.

[LizStreithorst]

You were worried that your husband would be angry about the cost of a large tank and Discus. But he suggested a large tank when he saw one, right? It's obvious that he is on your side. I also think that he respects you for all the research and experiments you have done. He's on your side with this endeavor.

Consider getting larger Discus this first time around. They are so much more resistant to bad stuff. And they display symptoms which gives you time to treat for what the problem is. Despite all your reading and experimentation something weird will happen eventually. I've been in Discus since 2001 and I've through more problems than I can remember.

The moment that tank is cycled I suggest you take the plunge and buy the fish. You have already seen all the potential problems that you could see, and overcome them. It's time to take the plunge.

[Pudmuppy]

LOL @ husbands reaction. I had the same thing happen to me two days ago with my new tank. As the water level increased, the hose started to float and shift outwards until it got me in the back. I was facing watching the news.

That's kinda what happened to me - the pipe was sitting at the top, mostly floating but pegged to the side, but I pulled on it and it just flipped over :D It could have gone much worse, but he handled it very well and I actually think he thought it was funny too!

[Pudmuppy]

You were worried that your husband would be angry about the cost of a large tank and Discus. But he suggested a large tank when he saw one, right? It's obvious that he is on your side. I also think that he respects you for all the research and experiments you have done. He's on your side with this endeavor.

Consider getting larger Discus this first time around. They are so much more resistant to bad stuff. And they display symptoms which gives you time to treat for what the problem is. Despite all your reading and experimentation something weird will happen eventually. I've been in Discus since 2001 and I've through more problems than I can remember.

The moment that tank is cycled I suggest you take the plunge and buy the fish. You have already seen all the potential problems that you could see, and overcome them. It's time to take the plunge.

He is a very good man, he just gets a bit anxious over some things :D He has been looking at a few fish with me and I have been encouraging him to help pick types out - so far he seems to really like blue turk types and snakeskins. I still haven't decided what types to go for.....

I think the tank has nearly cycled, but have actually bought a new API ammonia kit as I still have a suspicion that it is not reading accurately, however I have taken a few days holiday from 4th October and I reckon that's the perfect time to be home to receive a package, if you know what I mean :D

I am considering adding a few scatterfish in the next couple of days to act as canaries, and also because I would really like to have something moving in there soon - would it be wise to add a few cardinals or others, or perhaps a few cories? Or should I really just wait until the discus are in there for a few weeks/months?

[Mando]

He is a very good man, he just gets a bit anxious over some things :D He has been looking at a few fish with me and I have been encouraging him to help pick types out - so far he seems to really like blue turk types and snakeskins. I still haven't decided what types to go for.....

I think the tank has nearly cycled, but have actually bought a new API ammonia kit as I still have a suspicion that it is not reading accurately, however I have taken a few days holiday from 4th October and I reckon that's the perfect time to be home to receive a package, if you know what I mean :D

I am considering adding a few scatterfish in the next couple of days to act as canaries, and also because I would really like to have something moving in there soon - would it be wise to add a few cardinals or others, or perhaps a few cories? Or should I really just wait until the discus are in there for a few weeks/months?

From my experience, I would not wait to get the tank mates, however, start them off in the QT tank and put the Discus in the main tank when they arrive. I would follow the qt process for any addition.

[LizStreithorst]

Cross contamination is rare if you add dither fish to the tank before the Discus arrive. But you have been so cautious up to now, I would hate for it to happen to you now. Disease it hard for even a hardened Discus keeper to deal with. If I were you, I wouldn't take the chance. If you run into problems related to the cycle, just change more water until the filter catches up to the increased bio-load.

Once you are comfortable that the Discus are doing fine, if you still want other peaceful fish in the tank do it then. You will have to go through the whole PITA QT process which involves taking your least perfect Discus and putting it in the tank with the new fish and seeing if they carry something that the Discus have never been exposed to and get sick.

I think that your husband has excellent taste. I'm prejudiced though. I'm fond of the same strains and they look great swimming together in one big tank. They are different enough to make things interesting, but similar enough that if they interbreed you get some of each. Blue Diamonds are also a fish you might want to consider adding the mix.

I'm sorry. Your taste may well be very different from mine. But it seems to be good for you and the Discus if hubby thinks that he has a stake in this. Remember, he's the one who wanted the larger tank.

[Mando]

Cross contamination is rare if you add dither fish to the tank before the Discus arrive. But you have been so cautious up to now, I would hate for it to happen to you now. Disease it hard for even a hardened Discus keeper to deal with. If I were you, I wouldn't take the chance. If you run into problems related to the cycle, just change more water until the filter catches up to the increased bio-load.

Once you are comfortable that the Discus are doing fine, if you still want other peaceful fish in the tank do it then. You will have to go through the whole PITA QT process which involves taking your least perfect Discus and putting it in the tank with the new fish and seeing if they carry something that the Discus have never been exposed to and get sick.

I think that your husband has excellent taste. I'm prejudiced though. I'm fond of the same strains and they look great swimming together in one big tank. They are different enough to make things interesting, but similar enough that if they interbreed you get some of each. Blue Diamonds are also a fish you might want to consider adding the mix.

I'm sorry. Your taste may well be very different from mine. But it seems to be good for you and the Discus if hubby thinks that he has a stake in this. Remember, he's the one who wanted the larger tank.

Liz said it best!

Liz, I'm also gearing towards one color tanks. There is a beauty bout it that I cannot explain.

[Pudmuppy]

I'm sitting here reading the forums, twiddling my fingers as I am momentarily on pause - I don't want to risk anything in the tank until it is fully cycled, even if doing such large water changes, and I have actually found something interesting that might be useful to others -

My tank was just not cycling properly. Still getting ammonia readings and no nitrites after two weeks+, and I couldn't work out why it was stalling. Then I read on another forum that sometimes Prime locks everything away a bit too well - I did a big water change and used API tap water dechlorinator that I had in the house and the next day - cloudy water, ammonia dropping, nitrites rising. My water is pretty poisonous at the moment, but I am now seeing a breakdown from nitrites to nitrates, and no ammonia! Will do another big water change tomorrow and am really hoping that it will be cycled in the next week. Prime is just too efficient apparently.

I am also having a few problems with my elder dog that needed sorting, which has distracted me recently and I didn't want to purchase fish until this was resolved. She is doing much better now and I am pretty confident that I will have fish in the next two weeks. I haven't got any dithers yet, but that's ok because husband is too amused playing with the color settings on my new light to remember he wanted fish in there :D

... I also just got a new 20 gallon tank today, so I am consolidating my two lots of newts and assorted odds and ends into one tank, and then a couple of the fancy goldfish are going back into my mini pond outside permanently (I am stressing about that, but in Texas winter is not really winter!)

I am also trying to decide which strains to get! I want to do a group of single strains, or two strains - ie red and white or blue and white. I am thinking maybe not yellows for my first foray because it does add just a little bit more of a complication to an already complicated beginning, not sure yet. I am strongly considering Hans Tefe and Santarems - however they would have to be small ones, as I can't quite justify paying for his larger ones, or Myrtle Beach has several different types that are very interesting and a bit bigger in size for their cost, including blue snakeskins and Tiger turks - I am finding it hard to find good photos of adult tigers though, as they seem very variable, but that's half the fun isn't it - growing them up and seeing what emerges. We will see!

I will also start a new thread tracking my first Discus journey so it's separate from this thread, which is already too long :)

[LizStreithorst]

Yeah, Prime will for sure cover the existence if ammonia. I had no idea that the API would not. That is extremely good information.

My taste runs more toward the classic strains, but your taste is different from mine. Get the strains that most make turn you on most.