contemplating discus. can i do it with my current set up?

[thomas h]

so, as a quick background, i have kept fish since i was in high school, about a decade ago. i started with the 55 gallon tropical community tank which eventually upgraded to a 125 gallon tank with a canister filter and i kept that until i moved to my current house about 5 years ago. while i moved i upgraded to a sump filtration system and decided to keep cichlids. i kept my tank overstocked with mbunas for several years but my tank developed a leak which required tearing the setup down for repair. i had wanted to do some other upgrades like a custom 3d background and now that my tank is coming back together and im thinking of keeping discus. i have done some research and watched the king of diy's "how to keep discus" video, which is what has brought me here.

i live near farm fields. so my well water naturally has nitrate in it, which i have measured as high as 40+ ppm out of the tap. as a result of this i am forced to use an R/O filter and build my water up from there. i am currently filling my tank with an open pipe from the filter and its been 2 days since i opened the valve. the tank is *almost* half full, not counting the sump. this is my main concern with keeping discus. i am unable to produce the water to make the massive water changes that most people claim with their discus. i can do weekly water changes, as i do with my other tanks, a small anglefish tank and a smaller betta tank. i could probably muster 15 or 20 gallons every week with my current system, more would require some real ingenuity on my part which isnt impossible since im a plumber. my tank is currently bare bottomed, though i would really prefer a thin sand bottom. as for filtration, my sump is custom built from a 30 gallon breeder tank and sits underneath my display tank.it starts with mechanical filtration,then i have a massive amount of space for bio filtration, which i plan to make full use of with porous ceramics media. finally, i have a chamber for polyfill and carbon, to make sure no fine bits make it back to the tank.

is it possible to keep discus in this manner, or should i pursue other types of fish?

[LouDogge]

What size tank are you setting up?

You will definitely need to change more than 20 gal per week. I would figure out a way to up the R.O. production and get a storage tank of some sort so you always have plenty of water on hand.

I’m just getting back into discus myself and am remembering how dirty the tank can get in just 24 hrs. I have a 75 gal tank with 6 sub adult discus. I use water aging barrel that holds 60 gallons. I would say I do 70 -80% water change every other day. Most of the time I just change water everyday. Their waste adds up fast and I don’t like seeing it on the sand bottom.

[LizStreithorst]

How many gallons per day does your RO unit put out? Since your a plumber I'm sure they make big units that produce a lot of water. Also, there are booster pumps for RO. I have one that I'd be happy to sell cheap. It's been a long time since I used RO but my unite produced 100 gallons per day, and with the booster pump it produced considerably more. I would consider water storage barrels a must if for nothing more tham to bring the stored water up to temp and gas it off.

The number of WC necessary will depend on the age of the Discus you intend to buy. Adults can do with fewer water changes that young ones. Even with Adults, I wouldn't be comfortable with fewer that 2 large changes with stable water twice weekly. I do WC on my adults every day and suffer from guilt when I miss a day. If you can't manage that, I think that Angels would be your best alternative to Discus.

[Sturiosoma]

I would suggest you educate yourself as much as possible as to the fish you are going to keep, some people say with discus you have to do massive daily water changes, but in the wild they come from the amazon BASIN and they do not get massive daily water changes I would go on your 125gal with extreme filtration and I would use 3 aquaclear 110 hang ons and monitor my water chemistry, meaning amonium, nitrite, and check your ph at your tank and compare to your water change source to prevent any wild ph swings you seem to be experienced in that you were a reefer, and if you can keep a angel fish you can keep a discus, as they come from the same waters, just educate yourself as much as possible and do what makes sense and I think you'll be fine.

[thomas h]

my tank is 125 gallon with a 30 gallon sump. total water volume ends up around 125 gallons. my r/o filter is putting out about a gallon per hour or about 24 gallons a day. it should be noted that this filter is also used for drinking and cooking water, so the wife isnt happy for me to just drain it 24/7 which causes me to normally be limited by the logistics of maintaining a happy wife. I used a bit of clout to get the one time chance to fill the tank.

as for a booster pump, i dont think my r/o unit is rated to handle those kinds of pressures and i could just crank my homes pressure to whatever i want anyway. with some investment i could manage 30 gallons twice a week. 30/125 comes to 24% every 3.5 days.

the biggest problem is that i know in order to keep myself up to the challenge of maintaining a rigorous schedule like this, im going to have to streamline my system. an auto filling water storage system and a pump to transfer the water into the tank along with an automatic drain.... its something i can definitely do, but will it provide me with tank of happy, healthy discus? i plan to keep my stocking to a minimum. no more than 5 discus and possibly some smaller dither fish, or possibly a small pleco to manicure my future driftwood plans.

[LizStreithorst]

I suppose that with that much water volume 30 gallons 2 times weekly would work with adult Discus. Why not make it easy on yourself and buy a larger RO unit?

[thomas h]

the more i look at storage tanks, 50 gallons might be accomplished, or at least i could shorten the interval of water changes. 30 gallons would be doable at maybe 2 or 3 days. i would need to add a check valve and an extra pressure tank to feed the wifes drinking water while the fish side of the r/o system fills.. im definetly going to be burning through the r/o additives at this rate,though. i wonder if i can find my r/o additives by the bucket..... also, what additives are other people using with r/o water? i currently have seachems nuetral buffer for my betta and my angelfish along with an american cichlid addative. i have considered kent r/o right for the discus.

if i use a fill valve from a toilet and a latching switch on a pump with a float switch, coupled with an automatic drain, i could make water changes as simple as dumping additives in the storage tank and pushing a button.. the engineer in me is getting excited again. this will end really good or really bad.

a few questions, does over filtering your water make up for a slightly lesser water change schedule or is it useless? and do photos for this forum need to be hosted elsewhere or can i upload directly from my browser? ill gladly share some pics if i can figure out how...

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Thomas, you can upload pictures to the forum. The one limit is the filesize has to be 2MBs or less. The Insert Image icon is third over from the far right on the Quck Reply box.
Pat

[thomas h]

well my fish tank is finally full. still nowhere near fish ready, however. i have been doing more reading and i have had a few thoughts on the reason discus need such dramatic water change schedules. the more i learn about discus, the more i start to feel like its not the nitrogen compounds of the nitrogen cycle that discus are sensitive to. im starting to think that these fish are sensitive to the bacteria behind the nitrogen cycle and to protect them from these bacteria, anyone who keeps discus is forced to do massive water changes, not to remove the nitrate as with normal tanks, but to instead remove the ammonia before it can encourage any bacterial growth.

is this a known thing with discus or am i taking shots in the dark here?


schrodingers image upload. no way to know if it will upload or not, until after i post...
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[Second Hand Pat]

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[lpsouth1978]

I started discus a short time ago in a bit larger tank than yours. I also have terrible water and use RO for all my water. I purchased a 400gpd RO system for just this purpose. I use a 44g brute can as a storage container. This gets filled everyday, while I am at work (I have a float valve that shuts the water off once the can is fill. Each night, I attach a hose from this can to the tank and plug the pump into my ATO. I then start a siphon, using 1/4" tubing into another Brute can. As the water slowly drains, my ATO pumps clean water back into the tank.

This allows me to change ~35g/day without any issues. Without the LARGE RO system, I would be unable to keep Discus. It was a worthy purchase, after all, what is $500 when we are talking a big Discus tank? :)

[eugenefish]

What size tank are you setting up?

You will definitely need to change more than 20 gal per week. I would figure out a way to up the R.O. production and get a storage tank of some sort so you always have plenty of water on hand.

I’m just getting back into discus myself and am remembering how dirty the tank can get in just 24 hrs. I have a 75 gal tank with 6 sub adult discus. I use water aging barrel that holds 60 gallons. I would say I do 70 -80% water change every other day. Most of the time I just change water everyday. Their waste adds up fast and I don’t like seeing it on the sand bottom.

Totally agree with you Jon about the WC :) People say fancy goldfish are pooping machine ;) ;) I can tell you my discus and my fancy goldfish are both pooping machine. Who is the winner, my discus :)

[thomas h]

lyle, what are you adding to you r/o water before pumping it into the tank?

[lpsouth1978]

lyle, what are you adding to you r/o water before pumping it into the tank?

I use Kent Marine RO Right. It is inexpensive and a little goes a long way. I use 1.5-2 tsp for every 30 gallon water change.

[thomas h]

are you using anything to modify the kH or anything to act as a buffer?

[thomas h]

124212

I found a chart that I think illustrates ,numerically, something that struck me intuitively.
There is a serious diminishing return scenario at play for water changes which is visible here in the lower left corner of this chart. The author of the chart has made the lower left corner red to mark an environment that is too clean for a typical tank to have a healthy amount of bacteria. Now, this chart isn't made with discus in mind, (the author says for he considers value between 15 and and 45 are ideal for him) so lets say for discus we want a 5 to 10 range. Well, we can do 30% every 3 days and we are down to a 10. But, for all the people who claim to do 70-80 percent daily, which has been claimed in this thread, you are wasting a ton of water (if your goal is removing nitrates). A 25% water change daily schedule results in a 4 while 70% results in a 1. Even 50% daily comes out at 2.

This chart also leaves out another consideration. When you are doing water changes at short intervals, you should also start to consider that you aren't just removing nitrates. You are also removing nitrites and ammonia, which, once removed, will not be turned into nitrate. Take a little time to vacuum your tank and now you are removing the waste which usurps the cycle entirely. (this doesn't affect longer intervals because the bacteria starts transforming waste as its produced, which sets naturally small cap for what can be removed)

Where this chart fails is in the compounding factor of the waste that is left behind. This will mostly affect the smaller percentages, but that can be fixed by doing a larger water change once every (x) number over changes. However, if anyone here is seriously doing anything more than 50% every two days, then you are pretty much providing your fish with a forever un-cycled tank.

I have been keeping fish for over a decade now, but I have never kept discus specifically, so, I have no experience to go off of here. I have only my research and this thread. From this thread, I get the feeling that doing a 30% every 3-4 days is a shameful bare minimum even for a fairly under-stocked tank... Are discus seriously this sensitive?

[Sturiosoma]

Absolutely correct a forever uncycled tank which eventually results in illness as you can see reported by the big water changers.

Jeanne

[LizStreithorst]

You said the answer yourself. This chart is not made with Discus in mind. And BTW, what you said about an continually uncycled filter is not true. My filters are totally cycled and I have even done flopping on the bottom WC daily in a 30 gallon QT tank with 5 adult Discus until the filter caught up and I was able to cut down to 50 percent daily.

This forum is dedicated to Discus only. We have found though experience what works and what does not work to keep the fish healthy. We give people our knowledge freely because we want folks to have a good experience with Discus.

Also, Discus are not sensitive. Their needs are just different from most tropical fish. Give them what makes them feel good and they will be healthy and happy and you will be happy to. Or try it your own way and find out if it works for you over the long haul. We're always open to new ways of doing things.

[thomas h]

..... I was able to cut down to 50 percent daily. ... ....We have found though experience what works and what does not work to keep the fish healthy.... .... Discus are not sensitive.


I cant help but see mixed messages here. at 50% w/c daily with nitrate free change water i would be absolutely stunned if your tank even registers any nitrate on a test. if you take the amount of food you feed your fish in a day and consider that you are cleaning up excess food, and cleaning up any fish waste, removing half the ammonia, half the nitrite , and half the nitrate *every day*..... is the even going to be any nitrate? and if you stopped cleaning the tank for a couple days, would there really be a bed of bacteria to handle the temporary build up of ammonia and nitrites?

if your experience has guided you to see it necessary to change this much water, how can you say discus aren't sensitive? it would seem to me that the only thing they aren't sensitive to is claustrophobia when god comes along remove 98% of their living quarters every day.

[LizStreithorst]

Thomas, I'm not here to argue with you. Get the Discus and do what you think is right for them. We'll still be here if you run into problems.

BTW, my tanks have a pH of 7.2, my ammonia is 0, my nitrite is 0 and my nitrate is 5.

[thomas h]

well, to shift gears then, i am making progress on the hardware front. i realized that rather than buying a 100+ dollar tank and then have to rig up a float system, i could just use a water softener tank, which i currently have 5 of laying around waiting for junk day. we install a lot of water softeners. the softener tank comes with its own float shut-off and even uses the same tubing as my R/O system. it should hold just under 30 gallons. a little dirty on the outside, but the inside is spotless. so now its just waiting for the R/O system to drain and connecting it in. ill probably check the LFS tomorrow and see if the have a suitable pump i can drop into the storage tank to pump the water into the aquarium, then my last hurdle to this system will be finishing the drain... and i am dreading that. my crawlspace is about 1 foot tall underneath where my aquarium is and its wet under the from all the rains this year. which reminds me, i need to fix my gutters....

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[eugenefish]

I cant help but see mixed messages here. at 50% w/c daily with nitrate free change water i would be absolutely stunned if your tank even registers any nitrate on a test. if you take the amount of food you feed your fish in a day and consider that you are cleaning up excess food, and cleaning up any fish waste, removing half the ammonia, half the nitrite , and half the nitrate *every day*..... is the even going to be any nitrate? and if you stopped cleaning the tank for a couple days, would there really be a bed of bacteria to handle the temporary build up of ammonia and nitrites?

if your experience has guided you to see it necessary to change this much water, how can you say discus aren't sensitive? it would seem to me that the only thing they aren't sensitive to is claustrophobia when god comes along remove 98% of their living quarters every day.

The daily water change is not only for remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrate from the water. Do yourself a favor and use a paper towel to wipe down a quarter side of the tank. You will see what I mean. There are lot of slimy stuff build up everywhere in the tank. I believe those slimy stuff are from the discus slime coat, protein from the food we feed the fish and bacteria. They will continuous to accumulate until we wipe down the sides of the tank during WC.

[eugenefish]

You said the answer yourself. This chart is not made with Discus in mind. And BTW, what you said about an continually uncycled filter is not true. My filters are totally cycled and I have even done flopping on the bottom WC daily in a 30 gallon QT tank with 5 adult Discus until the filter caught up and I was able to cut down to 50 percent daily.

This forum is dedicated to Discus only. We have found though experience what works and what does not work to keep the fish healthy. We give people our knowledge freely because we want folks to have a good experience with Discus.

Also, Discus are not sensitive. Their needs are just different from most tropical fish. Give them what makes them feel good and they will be healthy and happy and you will be happy to. Or try it your own way and find out if it works for you over the long haul. We're always open to new ways of doing things.

Liz, I totally agree with you. Discus are not sensitive all all. Actually they are very easy to keep as long as you follow the basic rules. Constant the PH, temperature and large daily water change (70-80%). The discus will eat like a pig and grow to big dinner plate in no time :)

[bluelagoon]

The daily water change is not only for remove ammonia, nitrite and nitrate from the water. Do yourself a favor and use a paper towel to wipe down a quarter side of the tank. You will see what I mean. There are lot of slimy stuff build up everywhere in the tank. I believe those slimy stuff are from the discus slime coat, protein from the food we feed the fish and bacteria. They will continuous to accumulate until we wipe down the sides of the tank during WC.

yes, it's more than nitrate. TDS and DOC indeed. It's a fish tank, not a river.