New discus showing symptoms of sickness...any thoughts?

[dandyale]

Hello, everyone. I am a new member, but I have used this site for information for a while. You guys are awesome!

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish:

I bought 2 discus (tiger-striped and blue) about a week ago. Then bought 2 more (red-eye and white-eye) a couple of days later. They are in a 20g QT now, and they are being treated with Prazipro (1 tsp/20g). I will give a brief (approximate, according to my recollection) timeline below:
Day 1: Blue and Tiger-Stripe doing very well. Both eating and looking good.
Day 2: Same.
Day 3: Blue and Tiger-Stripe adapt well when I added Red-Eye and White-Eye. Red-Eye appears to be not eating and hiding below filter. Others (Tiger-Stripe and White-Eye) appear fine.
Day 4: Same.
Day 5: Blue appears very dark and is hiding with Red-Eye below filter, both not eating. Others appear fine.
Day 6: Same.
Day 7 (Today): Treated with Prazipro. Blue appears much more active, not spasming when I approach (enough to get some photos). Red-Eye continuing to hide, but coming out occasionally. Others appear fine.


2. Symptoms:

Blue: White slime/patches on skin, around pectoral fins. Cloudy eyes. Slight damage on pectoral fins. Not eating much. Some darting. Hiding. Green poop (just noticed that today; they are not in a planted tank).
Red-Eye: Had bloody spot on his face a few days ago. Fins appear ragged with white tips. Hiding, and some darting.
White-Eye: Nothing major, at least to my eyes.
Tiger-Stripe: Nothing major, at least to my eyes.


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

First tried API fungus cure (thought they white may have been fungus). Dosed 2 packets/20g QT every other day with daily 50% WC (used 1 pack on the off days to correct the WC).
Now using Prazipro. Dosed 1 tsp/20g QT today. Planning on doing a 50% WC every 2 days for 6 days total (using a 1/2 tsp to correct for the WC).


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish:

20g. 4x discus, all a week new to me, roughly 8 months old (maybe?). Each fish is roughly 3-4".


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often):

Started off doing 50%/day WC with API Stress Coat to dechlorinate.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it:

QT has been running for 3 weeks prior to fish being added. Bare bottom.


7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I do not age my water.


8. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 90

- ph 7.5 (that's the pH of my tap water)

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 0

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water 0%

- municipal water 100%

- RO water 0%

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Just these discus.


10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Cobalt discus flakes, blood worms (red box available at PetSmart, other retailers). Typically 3-4 small meals a day.


11. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Please see link below. Let me know if you cannot access please.

https://imgur.com/gallery/05OXiIV

I hope for some good help/advice! Thanks in advance.
Alex

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Alex, I can see the pictures. The one discus which is really dark is pretty bad and if it survivals the meds it will be one lucky fish. The gray stuff you see is it's slime coat. Unfortunately all the fish are thin and that has hurt their growth and health. Slowly reduce the heat to 84 or so. Dealing with the high heat is stealing valuable energy they all need to help recover. I think mostly these fish are dealing with a cross contamination and generally poor condition. Complete the Prazipro treatment and if the one bad fish is still around and losing it's slime coat I would suggest Furan 2 with salt. Adding salt now will help them and start with five tablespoon per 10 gallons. Add back five tablespoons with each 50% water change.

In the thread you linked ignore the advice to add junk to the tank.
Pat

[jeep]

You bought 2 discus then bought 2 more? Are they from the same source? Am I reading correctly that you've only had them for a week? Were they purchased from a breeder, hobbyist or LFS?

You stated that ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are all 0. Did you test or did you guess? In a cycled tank, nitrates are always present. The ragged fins suggest ammonia is or was present in the tank.

I would dump the stress coat and switch to Prime or Amquel. My experience with API was not a good one!

Your issue could be caused by not aging your water. This creates a high level of nitrogen, ph swings and stress. It could also be caused by cross contamination, or they could have been sick when you got them. They look pretty stunted and thin.

I agree with Pat... back the temp down to 82 and add the salt she recommends, and give us a little more history on these fish...

Brian

[dandyale]

Pat and Brian,

Thank you for the advice. I purchased them from my LFS a week ago. And yes, the LFS gets them from the same source (don’t know where to be honest), but the discus were in the same tank.

Also thanks for the advice about Prime/Amquel—I’ll check them out.

About aging the water...how should I do this if I’m doing WC daily/every other day?

I will continue the Prazipro treatment and begin adding salt today, and I’ll also start lowering the temp. Thanks for the advice, and I’ll keep you updated.

EDIT: I do have some Seachem ParaGuard that I was planning to use after the Prazipro was complete. Should I use one over the other (as opposed to the Furan-2)? I know they are both treatments for bacterial infections, but I’m not sure if the active ingredients are the same. Thanks.

Alex

[jeep]

Hi Alex,

Please hold off on any further meds until we have time to seek a different possible solution.

Aging water- When I first started out in this hobby, I was unprepared and didn't have the equipment to do regular water changes. I bought a 50 gallon trash can and filled it with water, placed an air stone in it and left it alone overnight. I then used 1 gallon jugs and hauled them to the aquarium. Very labor intensive! It didn't take me long before I made things easier and bought a submersible pump and some hose, attached a shut off valve and did my water changes this way. Aged water is a requirement and not an option for discus if you perform large water changes. You may be able to get by with smaller water changes without aging, but you will find yourself performing more of them.

As for the fish, I hate to give bad news, but they were in poor shape long before you got them. Very few LFS's know how to care for discus, or even try to. All they do is mark the price up 500% and toss them into a community tank and wait to collect their profits. In many cases, a LFS uses a central filtration system and can actually add antibiotics to the water to mask or prevent a pathogen. Then you get it home and the water has no antibiotics and the pathogen takes advantage.

Were you told to keep discus at 90 degrees, or did you turn it up because of this issue? The regular ideal temp for discus is 82-84.

For right now, I would get the temp down because you may be dealing with a bacterial issue and bacteria loves high temps. If this is bacterial, water changes are needed but I would perform smaller ones, say 25%, two or three per day until you can start aging your water. This will reduce any micro bubbles, ph swings and pathogen count. And like I said, dump the API and get some Prime. The only time I used API, all my discus became sick and I lost one. I can't prove it was the API, but things returned to normal immediately after I started using prime again.

I would also pick up some Furan 2 and follow the instructions, as well as immediately adding 5-7 Tablespoons of salt for every 10 gallons for 10 days, and replace the salt removed during water changes.

Please keep us updated so we can make changes if needed...

Brian

[dandyale]

Brian,

Thanks for the response.

A minor update: Blue appears to be more active, and is doing his best to eat (Tiger-Stripe is relatively aggressive during feeding; he might be the healthiest out of the bunch). Blue is going for food, but about 50% of the time he misses (didn't know if that was due to the cloudy eyes...). I added salt per Pat's advice this morning.

I got a 20g plastic tote and filled it up this morning to begin aging water, plan on doing a 25% tomorrow with aged water. Then after 2 days (after PraziPro treatment finishes), I'll plan on doing a ~50-75% WC with aged water, and begin Furan-2 treatment on the same WC schedule. A couple of questions about the aged water:

1) What should I add to the water? From the research I've done this morning, it appears I should dechlorinate the water as it's aging with Prime (I'm going to get some later today). I've seen people additionally use Kosher salt and Epsom salt--are these necessary?

2) I've also seen that people use Seachem Discus Buffer in their aging water. My pH is 7.5 from tap, but if I am going to be aging the water, obviously it will be significantly easier to keep the pH lower using this method, but I am somewhat worried about changing the pH (though I know ~6.0 is best for discus).
I am wondering if I begin (very slowly) lowering the pH over time (maybe getting it down to ~6.0-6.5 over the course of a month) and using the aging water process to keep it lower permanently. Thoughts? If it's not a good idea, I would like to know--I'm really trying to figure out a process that is best for the fish.

As far as fish from the LFS...I know their water conditions are not the greatest, sadly. I try to communicate with the manager and typically like to get my fish (I have a non-discus SA cichlid tank as well) very quickly after they arrive so as to not let them sit in the tanks too long at the store. But I definitely know what you're talking about. My LFS recently switched managers, and the new one has no clue how to keep discus but said she wants to keep getting them...so I know not to buy from there again. Probably going to get any future discus from a reputable breeder.

As far as temp goes, the temp was initially 84 degrees, but I bumped it up after reading several posts which advocated raising the temperature. However, I have since lowered. The temp is now 84 in the QT; going to lower to 82 tomorrow.

Again, much thanks for the advice. I'll continue to keep you updated.

Alex

[LizStreithorst]

You don't need Epsom salt in this situation. It's for fish that can't poop. It's a different type of salt. It's a laxative. Kosher salt is a waste of money in this case. Salt is salt is salt. You can buy plain salt cheap in bulk but table salt is the same thing just more expensive.

Whatever you do, don't use a Discus buffer. They do more harm than good. You will get stable pH by changing water with water that has been aged. Aging water requires heating and airating long enough for the CO2 to air off and the water to reach the same temp as the water in the tank. If you use aged water you can change as much water as you like without harming the fish.

High temps are good when you are trying to treat Hex, a common parasite of Discus. You may need to do this after you get the other, more important stuff cured. We'll let you know.

Think about how much time and worry you have spent on these poor sick fish and compare it to how happy and carefree you would be if you had purchased from a sponsor here.

[dandyale]

Liz,

Thanks for the reply. I’ve been using Morton non-iodized salt, so I will continue with that.

As far as the sponsors go...I tried to find the post about that, but the link I found has sellers that do not operate anymore (or their links don’t work). Would you (or anyone) be able to post a link to the page with sponsors? Thanks so much! Planning on waiting a long while before purchasing...until mine are healthy enough to go into a permanent tank.

Also, all 4 discus are eating now. Blue looks a little better—less cloudiness in the eyes, and his fins are up. ’ll take more photos tomorrow for you all to see. Thanks for the help.

Alex

[LizStreithorst]

I have purchased fish from Kenny, Chicago Discus, Al and Discus Hans who used to be a sponsor but it just on facebook now. I've been happy with the quality and health of all their fish.

[jeep]

Hey Alex,

It's good they seem a little better, but we're not over this. It may seem that I advocate salt quite a bit (some say too much, lol...), but I learned from the best in the hobby, and I do recommend for certain ailments, but it's not a cure-all. Just as swishing a sore tooth can be cured with salt water, it can also cure a minor discus ailment. But swishing an abscessed tooth will only make things comfortable for a short time, just like salt can make a very sick discus appear to be recovering when it's not fully cured. Only time will tell, but salt is especially effective when dealing with bacterial, ammonia or nitrate issues...

It's impressive that you are taking the advise and aging your water at all this soon after being given the advise. Many people resist this! But like I said, it is requirement and not an option when doing large water changes... especially with discus that young and already compromised!!!

Regarding ph... Don't mess with it. Discus don't need a low ph, they require a stable ph. It doesn't matter if it's 6.0 or 8.0, consistency it the goal (my ph is 8.5), including before and after water changes. Adding chemicals or additives to manipulate ph is a recipe for issues in the long run. If you age your water and your filter is cycled, you and your fish are good to go as far as ph is concerned!! This applies to TDS as well... At this time, only add the Prime to your water to deal with chlorine and chloramines, as well as the salt...

Give us an update tomorrow and give us some photos and we can proceed from there. I'm not a fan of treating with meds if it's not necessary! But at this time, I think the Furan 2 is the next course of action...

As for the forum sponsors, just click on the sponsor header and you will see them all. All of our sponsors are vetted and held to high standards as they represent this forum. Some are more active than others, but the current most active are:

Kao Saelee of Champion Discus http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?380-Champion-Discus-(Kao-Saelee)-Merced-CA

Josie Christopher of Chicago Discus http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?380-Champion-Discus-(Kao-Saelee)-Merced-CA

Dennis Velkov of Dennis' Discus Fish http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?408-Dennis-Discus-Fish-(Dennis-Velkov)-Bowling-Green-Ohio

Kenny Cheung of Kenny's Discus http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?119-Kenny-s-Discus-(Kenny-Cheung)-Daly-City-California

[danotaylor]

Depending where you live in Indi you may be able to drive to Chicago or BG OH to hand pick what you like. I had a fabulous experience with Dennis in BG last Sept. He sent multiple pics & vids to help me choose 8 adult discus, then when I drove up from Cinci to pick them up I liked 2 others he had better than the ones I had chosen, and he simply switched them up and gave me exactly what I wanted.

[dandyale]

All,

Thanks for the links and suggestions. I've seen most of the websites everyone suggested (with some new ones), and they all look great. I definitely will plan on getting a couple more once these recover and are placed in permanent tank.

Okay, I will not mess with the pH. It is really stable at 7.5.

I was feeding them just a bit ago and they were all really active and eating again. I decided to take a couple photos tonight, and may take some more tomorrow if I see any more significant changes in behavior/appearance. Below are the links:

1: https://imgur.com/gallery/wGMpfIz
2: https://imgur.com/gallery/nGZwy7R

I really appreciate all the help/suggestions. I welcome the advice; it only makes us better fishkeepers.

Alex

[bluelagoon]

Hi, in post #6 (1) you mentioned 'aginig with Prime". Do not put Prime in your aging water and let it sit. Only put the Prime in just before putting it in your tank or just put the Prime in your tank prior to a WC. This is because Prime only bonds to the chloramine or chlorine for 24-48 hours. Your filters BB will break down the ammonia part of chloramine, (but with just chlorine if your age nothing is needed cause chlorine will gas off in 24 hours with aeration). The discus in the pic looks very stunted and was in decline for weeks. I would think there is no return to good health for that one from what I've seen over the years.

[bluelagoon]

Maybe the questionnaire should have a question. What and how are you using for a dechlor if any?

[Second Hand Pat]

Maybe the questionnaire should have a question. What and how are you using for a dechlor if any?

That's a great idea Mervin :D
Pat

[peewee1]

I agree that local fish store stocks may be a crap shoot, especially for expensive fish. I have an offshoot question. "Aged water", is one or more days? I use API Aquarium Salt. Maybe change that? A side note. I just learned something about my discus. About 6 inches now.The salt was next to the aquarium. As I reached for the salt it spooked the fish. One jumped and flipped the cover open. He landed on the floor. A mad scrabble ensued as I tried to capture the flopping critter with one hand while trying to move the lid with the other so that I could get him back into the aquarium. Now I wonder if any acids secreted by my fingers will affect the skin of the fish? My grand dad had told me that when we catch fish while fishing to only hold the fish with wet hands. Any thoughts? About the salt and now picking up the escapee? I am now looking for a brick to placed on the top of the aquarium cover.

[dandyale]

Mervin,

Thanks for the advice. I suppose I misinterpreted some of the suggestions/information I saw on some videoos--glad to know that I can add Prime directly into the tank. So clarifying: for aging water, I will just need to let sit for 24+ hours at the same temperature and with an air stone?

And I can tell now (could not tell before--I wish I took photos of them when I first got them because Blue was looking probably the best out of the bunch initially) that Blue's eyes are way to big for his body, and his shape is slightly off. Hopefully I can get him to recover.

Thanks all.

Alex

[dandyale]

All,

So, time for an update. Today is day 3 of PraziPro treatment, so I did a minor (20%) WC with aged water, and put in 2 tbsp of salt along with appropriate amount of Prime to dechlorinate.

These photos are pre-WC:

https://imgur.com/gallery/RRjU1Bx

You can see that Blue's color is (slightly) returning, and his dorsal fin is up, and his pelvic/ventral fins are not clamped anymore (they have been clamped for 3 days at least). EDIT: Also, all fish were more active than usual; Blue was even swimming around the tank normally while I was doing the WC--very unusual behavior for him compared to his behavior the past few days.

The course of action that I will follow (based on everyone's advice) is to do a large WC (50-75%) in 2 days and continue salt treatment with Furan-2 (following the directions on the box).

I will continue to post updates/photos when I notice significant changes.

Thanks again everybody.

Alex

[bluelagoon]

I agree that local fish store stocks may be a crap shoot, especially for expensive fish. I have an offshoot question. "Aged water", is one or more days? I use API Aquarium Salt. Maybe change that? A side note. I just learned something about my discus. About 6 inches now.The salt was next to the aquarium. As I reached for the salt it spooked the fish. One jumped and flipped the cover open. He landed on the floor. A mad scrabble ensued as I tried to capture the flopping critter with one hand while trying to move the lid with the other so that I could get him back into the aquarium. Now I wonder if any acids secreted by my fingers will affect the skin of the fish? My grand dad had told me that when we catch fish while fishing to only hold the fish with wet hands. Any thoughts? About the salt and now picking up the escapee? I am now looking for a brick to placed on the top of the aquarium cover.

Hi, if salt is something your using on a regular basis for South American fish, you should stop. It is not good for and/or intended for long term use. It should only be used for antidotes and treatments.

[bluelagoon]

Aged water usually is about 24 hours or more, but in a pinch a few hours is better than none.

[jeep]

Hi, if salt is something your using on a regular basis for South American fish, you should stop. It is not good for and/or intended for long term use. It should only be used for antidotes and treatments.

Thank you!!! Sometimes I think I give the appearance of recommending its use too often, but your comment is exactly my intent!!!

[dandyale]

Update: Blue has regained more of his color. His behavior has drastically changed and is probably the most active in the tank, especially during eating.

I do have a question: Should I re-treat with PraziPro? I’ve heard that some parasites will lay eggs and the eggs will lie dormant throughout treatmeant and will hatch until the Prazipro has left the tank.

Or should I go ahead and use Furan?

Oh, and some photos:

https://imgur.com/gallery/77VFT4P

Alex

[slicksta]

Thank you!!! Sometimes I think I give the appearance of recommending its use too often, but your comment is exactly my intent!!!

I was starting to think that you had stock in Morton... lol.... :-D

[jeep]

Update: Blue has regained more of his color. His behavior has drastically changed and is probably the most active in the tank, especially during eating.

I do have a question: Should I re-treat with PraziPro? I’ve heard that some parasites will lay eggs and the eggs will lie dormant throughout treatmeant and will hatch until the Prazipro has left the tank.

Or should I go ahead and use Furan?

Oh, and some photos:

https://imgur.com/gallery/77VFT4P

Alex

I would hold off on the prazi at this time. It's most only good for tapeworms and flukes and I'm not sure yours have either unless you see signs of flukes. The blue one is looking a little better but to be honest will never reach its potential after being sick so early on. This condition began before you acquired them so don't feel bad.

I've never had to use Furan 2 so all I can do is recommend based upon others experiences. I would go ahead and run the Furan 2 unless anyone disagrees.

[dandyale]

Brian,

Thank you. I’ll start Furan today.

A couple of photos for an update:

https://imgur.com/gallery/bqxV5qB

Alex

[jeep]

Just be prepared to watch the water closely. Furan will damage the bio filter and I would hate to see an ammonia spike after all they've been through!

[dandyale]

Okay, thanks—that’s great to know. I’ll pay extra-close attention to water parameters.

[LizStreithorst]

That's quite an improvement. Shows you got good advice and followed it well. Have fun watching him continue to improve.

[dandyale]

All,

Here is an update on Blue:

https://imgur.com/gallery/Z2jr6WA

I now have another problem.
Tiger-Stripe is now showing symptoms of the following nature:

Erratic swimming, including (seemingly) loss of control. Doing “backflips,” hitting the sides. Not eating either. Eyes appear a bit cloudy.

He has a couple of scrapes on him now from running into things.

Any clue about this?
Shouldn’t be chlorine because I’ve treated with prime. Ammonia, N’s are 0 or very near.

Alex

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Alex, how did you dose the furan 2?
Pat

[dandyale]

Pat,
I used 2 packets (1 pack/10 gal). Then I did another treatment 24 hrs later per the box. I’ve been checking to see if water parameters changed but they have not yet.
Alex

[Second Hand Pat]

Did you do a water change before redosing Alex?
Pat

[dandyale]

Pat,

No I did not. Usually I would have but I decided to follow to the point. Do you think it overdosed him? The others are doing quite well.

Alex

[Second Hand Pat]

That is my concern Alex. It sounds like an overdose. I would suggest doing a 50% water change and redose for the volume of water in the tank.
Pat

[jeep]

That is my concern Alex. It sounds like an overdose. I would suggest doing a 50% water change and redose for the volume of water in the tank.
Pat

I agree! But, since you may have over dosed them by not doing a water change to begin with, I would only treat for the water being replaced.

[dandyale]

All,

Thanks for the help. Unfortunately Tiger continues his erratic swimming and ultimately hit the tank sides hard and passed. I went ahead and did the WC and redosed the Furan to match the tank size.

I’m still somewhat confused though as to the dosing as the box says to redose without a WC after 24 hours—maybe a mistake on the box? Or maybe something else going on...

All the others are doing/looking well and eating.

I’ll continue to update if things change.

Thanks everyone; I’m glad that I at least got Blue back on the road to recovery.

Alex

[jeep]

Alex, I'm sorry this happened. I've never heard anyone reporting an issue like this when using Furan 2, but by your description it does sound like an OD. Your little blue one seems to be the most sick, so I'm surprised it didn't have a reaction instead of the other one.

I've looked at several other posts from around the internet and it seems you are dosing correctly according to API's instructions, but if you notice similar behavior I would probably discontinue the med.

I would also recommend doing 50% water changes between treatments regardless of what the instructions say...

And to correct my earlier statement, they say Furan 2 will not hurt biofiltration...

[dandyale]

Brian,

Yeah after this experience I will definitely do WC between treatments regardless of instructions. I was expecting to lose one, but he was the least likely out of the bunch to go I thought...

Furan’s treatment cycle is complete now, so I will let them rest from meds and continue daily 50% WC. Hopefully the remaining fish will continue their current activity levels and will continue to recover (and hopefully grow).

Alex