Nitrite in tap water

[Pudmuppy]

Hi everyone!

I am in the middle of doing my research to make sure I can care for Discus adequately before I dive in, and at the moment I am doing a ton of water checks. I am finding, annoyingly, a reading of .25ppm nitrite straight out of the tap, and after aging a barrel of water 24 hours (twice) I am still seeing .25ppm nitrite and no nitrate, but also .5ppm ammonia. I am using a new API freshwater master test kit.

I am thinking about adding a RO unit to my routine, however I will only maybe get 15/20 gallons a day. I would rather avoid adding an RO unit too.

I am wondering though, if I add an internal filter to my aging bucket (as I also get a swing from ph 8.4 to 6.4 in around 12 hours), and then the canister filter on the tank itself (size and make not yet decided) if that will break down the nitrite enough so as not to be a concern? I don't want to add any life to the aging bucket though as it will be in the dark (garage) so I am not sure if the bacteria could be supported on the tap nitrites alone.

I have also read that Prime can neutralize ammonia and nitrites? Is this to a noticeable degree?

Thoughts?

[bluelagoon]

Here's a bit of a read about Seachem Prime. https://www.reddit.com/r/Aquariums/comments/7ngexz/seachem_prime_does_not_detoxify_nitritenitrate/

[JamesW]

You should definitely be aging your water with that pH swing. I'd also get a KH and GH test kit or at least your local water report to see why it is settling so low. Given that information, a bag of coral in your filter might be useful.

If you use a simple sponge filter to aerate your water in an aging bucket you should, with time, develop suitable bacteria to consume nitrite. It should be able to take care of the nitrite in <24h. Using an air-driven sponge will also settle your pH. Obviously that nitrite will be converted to nitrate and you'll be adding that to your tank but it'll only be a couple ppm and with adequate WC it shouldn't be an issue.

Prime neutralizes ammonia, chloramine and chlorine. It might contain some sodium chloride or the sulfite also competes with nitrite so they can claim it detoxifies it, but I would not be relying on it. Aging your water with a biologically active sponge is how I would address your issue.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks James. I have never dealt with water like that so had no idea what would work. Good luck Ally.

[cooper666]

That's an interesting one.

API test kits are known to give false results, especially if they have been on the shelf for a while. I'd run your tap water for 10 min to clear the lines, then take a sample to the LFS and ask them to test it. See what results they get.

Does your water have chlorine? If so, chlorine is very good at oxidising NO2, producing NO3, so chlorinated sources should not show nitrites.

RO is an option, but very wasteful and water production is slow. This really sucks if you need to do large emergency exchanges.

Double checking those parameters at a good LFS is where I'd start.

[LizStreithorst]

Thanks for helping with a situation is over my head, Cooper.

[cooper666]

Happy to share. To be clear, I haven't kept discus for many years but I'm stetting up a tank now :D My background is aquaculture, mostly barramundi and prawn hatcheries, my water quality knowledge is pretty good (for what it's worth) I'm here to learn and help where I can.

Cheers

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks everyone! I am pretty baffled by this water. I used to work in a tropical fish shop in the UK and have never seen readings like this - but the area I live in now (Dallas) seems to be known for weird drinking water, there are often articles about it from the human being side (but won't someone please think of the fishies!) I like your idea of taking it to a local shop to be checked, I am actually going to be scoping out a new shop next weekend so I might try there. I also just bought a couple of different brand kits to compare. The fact that my current readings are so different from what my previous kit says, does make me wonder if I am part of the API issue I read about recently.

I had assumed my water had chlorine but that's an interesting point.

I would really rather avoid using RO as I hate water wastage, and my plants will be more than happy with the amount I would be draining from the tank every other day to justify adding the waste water :D

I will certainly be aging the water from now on, even just for my goldfish/newts - it might explain the seemingly random deaths that I and a few others have had with our goldies. I have started buffering their water with coral actually, as they are not fans of the low PH

Just trying to decide if I want to take the risk with Discus in this water or stick to something a little hardier! I don't mind a challenge, but I dislike a challenge that may be insanely time consuming, expensive, frustrating and result in the death of my fish. I can save that for when I retire/win the lottery....... ;)

[LizStreithorst]

Is the new shop you're going to using the same water company as you? While they test your water ask what they do with their water.

I don't believe that in all the years I've been on Simply I have ever seen the water readings straight from the tap that you have. I know how much you would like a tank of happy healthy Discus. I hope you can find an easy answer so that you can have what you want.

[Willie]

I believe your nitrite reading is a false positive. Nitrite occurs very fleetingly during nitrogen cycling. It would not occur in your tap water. In any case, you should plan to aerate your water for 24 hours for the pH to adjust.

Good luck, Willie

[Pudmuppy]

I believe your nitrite reading is a false positive. Nitrite occurs very fleetingly during nitrogen cycling. It would not occur in your tap water. In any case, you should plan to aerate your water for 24 hours for the pH to adjust.

Good luck, Willie

ooookay, I am very confused as to what is going on now and I think I agree with you Willie, it seems like there is something showing up that shouldn't be.

I decided to test my newt/goldfish tank which has been established for over a year, and contains two very messy fancies. I hold my hand up that I haven't tested this tank in a couple of weeks, and only tested with the old kit, which showed the tank and my tap water as being ph 6.4/6, no ammonia, no nitrites, nitrates occasionally 5ppm...

New API kit - PH 6.4, Ammonia 0.5ppm, Nitrites 0 and Nitrates 0

That can't be right??? Tank is very well established, lightly planted, busy, hungry, spoilt and probably overfed goldfish that are happy and healthy - although I do around 30% water changes every two-three days, and I did do a 50% yesterday morning. Still, surely there should be some nitrates showing up?

I have bought a Seachem Ammonia test, and I think I will buy a Nitrite/Nitrate one too now, as I need to see a different brand's results to see if it is just the tapwater/me or if there is actually something wrong with this kit.... also going to take water sample to local fish shop next saturday - I believe they are on the same water as me, but will check....

[LizStreithorst]

Dang Ally, you're a Pit Bull when it comes to getting to the bottom of something, aren't you. I don't have enough of that. I admire it in you.

[cooper666]

Yep, I'd piss off the API kits and get something more reputable. See what results you get from the LFS.

API is attractive. They are cheap and have minimal reagents which makes them easy to use. Shame they don't work reliably (especially the nitrite).

[LizStreithorst]

Mine have always been reliable, but you never know. Quality control should have taken care of it, but if a lot of people had a problem with it perhaps they didn't. What is the expiration date on your API test kit?

[cooper666]

I killed about 100 000 barramudii at the work place because the API nitrite test measured 0.5 when it was actully 40ppm. I't was extremely hard to find the true problem as the test's said everything was fine.

Sad few weeks there.

[Willie]

So the nitrification reaction proceeds from NH3 (ammonia) -> NO2 (nitrite) -> NO3 (nitrate). The kinetics of this process is that NH3 -> NO2 proceeds comparatively slow, while the reaction of NO2 -> NO3 proceeds rapidly. So in effect, NO2 does not accumulate in the water during nitrification. Fundamental biochemistry, cannot be changed.

When the tank is cycling (NH3 -> NO2), there's a brief phase (very brief) when nitrite levels shoot up. Then just as quickly, it drops down because the NO2 -> NO3 reaction occurs so fast. When the tank is fully cycled, there is no accumulation of NO2 for that reason.

So, in brief, NO2 can only be measured in a system that's going through cycling. I cannot imagine a situation in which the source of your tap water is going through cycling.

Hope that helps, Willie

[JamesW]

Nitrite can also be
formed chemically in distribution pipes by Nitrosomonas bacteria during stagnation of
nitrate-containing and oxygen-poor drinking-water in galvanized steel pipes or if
chloramination is used to provide a residual disinfectant and the process is not
sufficiently well controlled.


Chloramination may give rise to the formation of nitrite within the distribution
system, and the concentration of nitrite may increase as the water moves towards the
extremities of the system. Nitrification in distribution systems can increase nitrite
levels, usually by 0.2–1.5 mg of nitrite per litre, but potentially by more than 3 mg of
nitrite per litre (AWWARF, 1995).

Excerpts from: Nitrate and nitrite in drinking-water
Background document for development of
WHO Guidelines for Drinking-water Quality

I'd get a new/different kit or try and find your local water report. I found the Dallas report and it does list nitrite and nitrate at measurable levels, but focuses on contaminants and doesn't list other parameters like hardness or pH etc.

[Pudmuppy]

Thanks everyone, some very interesting information here. I have never delved that deep into water parameters, mostly because I never considered they could be so mad!

So I got my seachem ammonia test and tested (with the longer, more accurate version) my currently active goldfish/newt tank and got a reading of 0 free and .01 total, I then tested from my 24 hour aged tub and got 0 free and then I think over 5ppm total as the spot turned purple and the guide strip only went to blue! I'm going to do a straight from the tap test tonight....

I'm guessing that as there is no free ammonia, this is a good sign, however how much less toxic is the rest? I have read that as long as there is no free, then high readings are ok, others say that any ammonia is bad ammonia. I can also imagine this is going to create a higher concentration of nitrates in the end, so more water changes for me!

I have just bought the Seachem nitrite/nitrate test, may as well keep going with the research (Liz, I am far too tenacious sometimes, it's exhausting, but only happens when I really, really want something, which isn't often!:P) I am also going to the local fish store on Saturday to get my tap water tested and discuss with them, and also to have a look at some awesome display tanks, in case I need any help making decisions... I am at a rock and a hard place right now, trying to decide if I have the time and willpower to deal with Discus if my water is going to be so difficult, I don't mind a challenge but I don't want to stress myself or my fish if I am banging my head against a wall and forcing them to live in unpleasant surroundings, however I have no idea at this stage whether my water readings are a Really Bad Thing, or just a Thing, and aging my water and having a good filter and water change regime will fix it all! (Or if I should have different fish in the meantime, learn to deal with the water/get a big volume RO system and then make it a goal for a year or so's time)

However, all my testing has already helped my goldfish, i'm in the middle of naturally buffering their water to raise the PH for them, as at least that result is consistent at 6.4 after aging!

[LizStreithorst]

If James doesn't see your question about the ammonia I'll shoot him a PM. He knows more about water than anyone I know.

[cooper666]

The ratio of NH4 : NH3 is governed by temp and pH. High temp and high pH increases the NH3. NH3 (free ammonia) is much more toxic than ionised NH4. I'm pretty sure that those ammonia blocking products just shift all of the NH3 to NH4 "detoxifying" it. Having said that >5ppm is high, too high for sensitive fish IMO.

[JamesW]

Conversion of Ammonia (toxic) to ammonium ('non-toxic') is a pH phenomenon, temperature matters but the range we are talking about 20 - 30C we can essentially ignore it.
At pH 9.2 it is 1:1, at 8.2 it is 10:1 Ammonium/Ammonia, 7.2 100:1 and 6.2 1000:1.


Your goldfish tank has no ammonia and has a cycled filter (probably), hopefully your nitrite is also 0 and you have measurable nitrate.

What is the pH of the 24h aged tub? If it is 6.4 then it makes sense that your free is low and total is high.

My guess is that your source water has chloramines, this would explain the transient nitrite measurement and the high total ammonia measurement after aging.

If you have a spare sponge filter run it in the goldfish tank for a week or so then put it in a bucket with fresh tap water. After a day the pH should've dropped, the total AND free ammonia should be low/zero, nitrite maybe measurable and nitrates measurable 10-20ppm.

All of this points to needing to age your water with a cycled sponge filter to aerate and detoxify the nitrogen species.

[Pudmuppy]

Thank you everyone so much! Some really awesome information in here. I have actually set up a 5 gallon tank and seeded it with some media from my goldfish tank - will be keeping a note of what happens in my "main" thread if anyone else is interested - http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?135231-Hello-and-a-couple-of-questions/page3

[dspeers]

I am confused, if the dechlorinator in essence liberates ammonia (a base) why then does the Ph drop by two points with aging? I thought the Ph usually went up with aging, and it was more due to off gassing Co2 regardless of whether chlorine or chloramine was used.

[LizStreithorst]

I'm not positive but think that the pH goes up of your tap water is from surface water. It's because surface water can be over oxygenated and after aging it gasses off the excess O2. James would know for sure. He's the real water guy here. Hope he see's your question or you could always shoot him a PM of he doesn't.

[Tuterosso]

ph depends on how many gh and kh you have in water, kh is buffor ph