Discus with white circle on tail and on body... help please

[Sandnukka15]

Cant tell if salt and clean water will clear this up .... if its fungal/bacterial?

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

This started 2 days ago. I got my fish about a week ago. Maybe stress from establishing pecking order and aggression?


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

White circle on tail fin and pectoral fins beat up as well as a white patch on body


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Have been trying aquarium salt 1.5 tablespoons per 10 gallons



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

75 gallon BB 10 discus ranging from 3.5-4 ish inches


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
I was changing about 70% every other day bit since I have noticed this injury I've been doing 70% daily


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

Cycled with ammonium chloride for a month waited for all perams to be in check and added discus with big water change to get rid of nitrates. Tank is in fact cycled

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I dont age water ph swing is about.3

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Prime I add before adding new tap water during wc


9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __84___

- ph ___7.4__

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading ___5ish_

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water _x___

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
No


11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Hikari frozen discus cubes, frozen brine shrimp, frozen bloodworms.

Omega one color up flakes, veggie flakes rarely, mini color pellets

I feed 3 times a day as much as they can eat in 15 mins


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them

Just wanted to get this typed up will post pic as soon as I get home

[Sandnukka15]

124382124383124384124385

[jeep]

Probably establishing a pecking order and haven't fully acclimated yet. That discus look a little stunted and clamped. Since they are fairly new, I would bump the temp to 88 and increase the salt to 5-6 TBS per 10g until they are settled. During the QT/acclimation period, I would treat with Prazi to eliminate any flukes or tapes.

I recently received a similar discus and after 5 days of heat it finally snapped out of it...

Let us know if there are any changes going on. If the white patch gets worse, we may lower the heat and increase the salt.

Brian

[LizStreithorst]

Thank you, Brian. I didn't have a clue what was going on. He is doing everything right. I agree that the Discus looks stunted.

[Sandnukka15]

Probably establishing a pecking order and haven't fully acclimated yet. That discus look a little stunted and clamped. Since they are fairly new, I would bump the temp to 88 and increase the salt to 5-6 TBS per 10g until they are settled. During the QT/acclimation period, I would treat with Prazi to eliminate any flukes or tapes.

I recently received a similar discus and after 5 days of heat it finally snapped out of it...

Let us know if there are any changes going on. If the white patch gets worse, we may lower the heat and increase the salt.

Brian

I've heard higher temps can increase bacterial infections? Is this true? Especially with 88 degrees?... also with the higher temps should I keep the feeding schedule the same?.. I dont want to increase more food since I'm trying to keep water as clean as possible.


Also how long do you think the discus could handle the 5 tbsp of salt per 10 gallons?

[Sandnukka15]

Thank you, Brian. I didn't have a clue what was going on. He is doing everything right. I agree that the Discus looks stunted.

A few of them do but not all. I dont think they are that badly stunted. Hoping to get them back on track. I had recieved them like this from discus madness. I had ordered the discus assortment of 10 knowing they wouldn't be perfect due to the low cost. Wasnt in my budget to spend a lot. I know these fish are frustrating to keep. And for the reason of this post I knew I didnt want to spend much. I've kept and bred a lot of fragile fish but I'm already regretting getting these discus.

[Sandnukka15]

How can I do prazipro if I'm doing water changes daily?

[danotaylor]

I would not do prazipro at this time. It looks almost like a heater burn on the body...
Do as Brian suggested with the salt and water changes. I dosed both my discus tanks with 1tbsp/1gal (5 cups for 75gal) for 3 days, did a 90% wc, then added back 2 cups salt for 3 days, then another 90% wc with 5 cups for 3 days then 90% wc 3 days in a row. My discus were cured of a serious unknown ailment using this treatment. I fed only once daily during the treatment to keep better water quality. All of my fish are now healthy and back on track.

[Sandnukka15]

I would not do prazipro at this time. It looks almost like a heater burn on the body...
Do as Brian suggested with the salt and water changes. I dosed both my discus tanks with 1tbsp/1gal (5 cups for 75gal) for 3 days, did a 90% wc, then added back 2 cups salt for 3 days, then another 90% wc with 5 cups for 3 days then 90% wc 3 days in a row. My discus were cured of a serious unknown ailment using this treatment. I fed only once daily during the treatment to keep better water quality. All of my fish are now healthy and back on track.

I know salt baths are used frequently but do the discus go thru any stress with salt that high of 5 cups per 75 gallons?

It does look like a heater burn but that's not possible since I have fluval E heaters with protective guards.

[Sandnukka15]

I started bumping the temps up. I'll add more salt tommorow after my wc

[jeep]

5 TBS salt sounds intimidating but it's actually very mild as you can tell by Danny's post. However, the amount he used was to target a specific issue and it's not recommended or necessary during the acclimation period, but the amount we are talking about does help them settle in and adapt and reduce any minor issues. I always raise the temp in new arrivals. If they are healthy it helps them acclimate. If they are sick, it will bring out the illness early on and make things easier to treat early. I would do this for a total of 10 days. As long as you do your water changes, you shouldn't have any heat related bacterial issues that don't already exist. If they do exist you will know it right away and we can adjust your acclimation process. If you use Prazipro, it's actually a diluted form of pure Prazi, Just redose after water changes for whatever time period they recommend. It should only have to be used for one treatment, or maybe again in a week or so. I prefer pure Prazi from Jehmco or another reputable supplier.

I think with salt and your water change routine your discus will be just fine!

[jeep]

A few of them do but not all. I dont think they are that badly stunted. Hoping to get them back on track. I had recieved them like this from discus madness. I had ordered the discus assortment of 10 knowing they wouldn't be perfect due to the low cost. Wasnt in my budget to spend a lot. I know these fish are frustrating to keep. And for the reason of this post I knew I didnt want to spend much. I've kept and bred a lot of fragile fish but I'm already regretting getting these discus.

I know you now know, but always be leery of anyone selling an "assortment" or offering free shipping. An assortment usually means "leftovers" and "free shipping" means you paid too much in the first place!!!

[jeep]

Sorry, and yes, feed them as much as they will eat, 5 or 6 times per day. Increased heat = increased metabolism, and with stunted discus this young, it's possible to turn them around and into decent fish, especially with the care you are providing!

I recommend these things because at this point we are doing an acclimation period rather than a sickness. If they do crash then we can proceed with a different approach...

[Sandnukka15]

Thank you... I'll do the recommended amount of aquarium salt at 88 degrees for 10 days with daily 70% wc and 5 times a day feeding.

[jeep]

Forgot to say, replace the salt being removed during water changes ;)

[Sandnukka15]

Forgot to say, replace the salt being removed during water changes ;)

Yes of course... appreciate the advice.

This next question has nothing to do with this topic but how many frozen cubes of hikari frozen foods would you recommend for all 10 discus per feeding?..... its hard to tell when I feed them bc at this size I aim for 2 cubes per each feeding per day.... which was 3 feedings total.... I've heard of others feeding more but they are so slow at eating and picking off the bottom that I cant tell.

I was thinking

2 cubes morning
3 feedings in between with 1 cube each
2 cubes late night.

These are hikari frozen food cube sizes for refrence

[Sandnukka15]

5 cups for 75 gallons with daily 70% water changes daily can be pricey with api aquarium salt prices at around $6 per 65oz for me on amazon. Is there a cheaper salt solution you would recommend?

[Second Hand Pat]

5 cups for 75 gallons with daily 70% water changes daily can be pricey with api aquarium salt prices at around $6 per 65oz for me on amazon. Is there a cheaper salt solution you would recommend?

Regular table salt :) http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?116800-Salt-A-basic-FAQ.
Pat

[jeep]

I'm not sure about feeding blood worms, I've never really fed my fish this. I feed a beef heart mixture, black worms and color bits, but i would ignore the instructions and just feed as much as they can eat within 5 minutes or so. In the few times I have fed them blood worms, whatever floats to the top stays there, never gets eaten and spoils.

[danotaylor]

"aquarium salt is a rip-off. I bought a 40# bag of Morton Pure Natural salt at home Depot for $8. Works perfectly!

[Sandnukka15]

It looks like it has gotten worse today and I see the same type of patch starting to form on the other side of his body

[jeep]

Can you give us another photo?

[Sandnukka15]

Now another one is getting a white spot behind its pectoral fin and 2 of them arent eating124399

[Sandnukka15]

It wont let me upload certain pics...

[jeep]

The photos may be too large. They must be <2mb.

I just noticed you don't age your water. A ph swing is not the only concern with aging. I would pick up an aging barrel or reduce the water changes to 30% x 2 or 3 times per day with several hours in between. If this is progressing you may want to pick up some Furan 2 and lower the temp to 82 if it looks bacterial or fungal , but lets wait another day with a different water change routine to see any changes. It looks like they may have come to you with a bug.

[Sandnukka15]

The photos may be too large. They must be <2mb.

I just noticed you don't age your water. A ph swing is not the only concern with aging. I would pick up an aging barrel or reduce the water changes to 30% x 2 or 3 times per day with several hours in between. If this is progressing you may want to pick up some Furan 2 and lower the temp to 82 if it looks bacterial or fungal , but lets wait another day with a different water change routine to see any changes. It looks like they may have come to you with a bug.

How would I go about using furan 2 if I'm doing daily water changes? Is it a med that is dosed everyday?

[Sandnukka15]

The original white patch looks like it's gotten deeper as if it's a sore. Middle of the patch looks to be red

[Sandnukka15]

Noticed one have long white poop. So guessing maybe a parasite?

Would api general cure help?... I have 3 boxes of this on hand

[Sturiosoma]

I would treat your tank with sera which contains iodine.

Jeanne

[Sandnukka15]

Anyone else know what this might be... getting frustrated and worried

[jeep]

When using Furan 2, follow the instructions on the box and redose after a water change. The discus is stressed and the white feces can be hex, which is opportunistic when a fish is stressed.

General Cure won't really help with the external issue.

Have you aged your water or reduced the percentage? If these things along with salt don't work then I would use the Furan 2.

[Sandnukka15]

When using Furan 2, follow the instructions on the box and redose after a water change. The discus is stressed and the white feces can be hex, which is opportunistic when a fish is stressed.

General Cure won't really help with the external issue.

Have you aged your water or reduced the percentage? If these things along with salt don't work then I would use the Furan 2.

I'm going to get a brute 55 gallon trash can to age the water in and start doing aged water changes tommorow. I also ordered furan 2 which will be here tuesday.

Would it hurt to use furan 2 if there is still salt in the aquarium? Also does furan 2 effect the biofilter?

[jeep]

Excellent idea on the Brute! During the summer, my water ages without the aid of a heater or air stone. During the winter when the water is colder, I use both.

I'm not sure where you live, but most LFS carry Furan 2, although it's much more expensive than online. Also, you can use the salt and they say it won't hurt your bio.

[Sandnukka15]

Excellent idea on the Brute! During the summer, my water ages without the aid of a heater or air stone. During the winter when the water is colder, I use both.

I'm not sure where you live, but most LFS carry Furan 2, although it's much more expensive than online. Also, you can use the salt and they say it won't hurt your bio.

Thanks. Wouldnt be able to get rid of all the salt in the tank without multiple water changes. I ordered 3 boxes on prime and should be here tuesday. It will give me 2 days to slowly adjust the temp from 88 back down to 82.

The circle on the back fin has dissapeared with salt but the main 2 white circles on his body look like they are turning red in the center

[Sandnukka15]

Also 2 of the discus continue not to eat. The guy in the pics with the 2 white spots still has a full appetite tho

[jeep]

I wish there was more to say, but I think you were unfortunate to receive sick fish from a bad supplier. Have you called Discus Madness about this? They may have some additional ideas... I seller who cares about their reputation will also be there after the sale. I'm seeing very mixed reviews about them...

[Sandnukka15]

I wish there was more to say, but I think you were unfortunate to receive sick fish from a bad supplier. Have you called Discus Madness about this? They may have some additional ideas... I seller who cares about their reputation will also be there after the sale. I'm seeing very mixed reviews about them...

I'll try calling them tommorow but I'm afraid they wont be much of help. When I first got the fish close to 2 weeks ago there were no signs of any illness until a few days ago. They might deny all of it and be of no help

[jeep]

I wouldn't approach them as challenging them, just call and ask for advise. This will make it easier to communicate with them and they may actually agree with our discussion here.

To be honest, this could be something as simple as aging your water or other subtle changes. I'm just a little stumped and it's easy to make an assumption when viewing a photo of a fish that is obviously a little stunted. I've never had to deal with issues like this so I can only make recommendations based on what I've seen others do and hope my memory serves me well. :o

[Sandnukka15]

I wouldn't approach them as challenging them, just call and ask for advise. This will make it easier to communicate with them and they may actually agree with our discussion here.

To be honest, this could be something as simple as aging your water or other subtle changes. I'm just a little stumped and it's easy to make an assumption when viewing a photo of a fish that is obviously a little stunted. I've never had to deal with issues like this so I can only make recommendations based on what I've seen others do and hope my memory serves me well. :o

I'll get ahold of them to see what happens. I cant see why not aging water could cause something like this. That doesnt make sense to me but I know aging can help

[jeep]

Dissolved gasses are always present in pressurized water systems whether ph changes or not. As these gasses expand and evaporate there are chemical reactions to the water and this can cause stress to discus. Adding stress to a less than perfectly healthy discus can cause their system to become more susceptible to things that would not not normally be an issue. For the most part, most people can do 25%-30% WC from tap with no side effects. More can be stressful. During the summer time, I can do 50% straight from tap - during winter only 25%...

[Sandnukka15]

Dissolved gasses are always present in pressurized water systems whether ph changes or not. As these gasses expand and evaporate there are chemical reactions to the water and this can cause stress to discus. Adding stress to a less than perfectly healthy discus can cause their system to become more susceptible to things that would not not normally be an issue. For the most part, most people can do 25%-30% WC from tap with no side effects. More can be stressful. During the summer time, I can do 50% straight from tap - during winter only 25%...

So how long would I have to age the water?... is 24hrs sufficient since I do daily water changes?. Can the lid be on the brute trash can the whole time?

[jeep]

Yes and yes!!

[Sandnukka15]

Yes and yes!!

Thanks just wanted to make sure bc it would be a pain to heat the brute can with the lid off. Hopefully everything clears up with the aged water and furan 2.

[danotaylor]

Furan will kill off gram positive and gram negative bacteria which means your biofilter will take a hit as well. You will have to be diligent with you water change schedule post treatment so you don't get ammonia & nitrite spikes

[Sandnukka15]

Furan will kill off gram positive and gram negative bacteria which means your biofilter will take a hit as well. You will have to be diligent with you water change schedule post treatment so you don't get ammonia & nitrite spikes

That's what I initially thought....I'll have to make sure the ammonia doesnt keep up after treatment and continue with large aged water changes.

My luck just keeps getting better lol

[jeep]

I always thought this as well, but when helping someone else a few weeks ago I looked into this and API stated that Furan 2 does not hurt the bio. While re-reading just now, they say it will, lol...

Sorry for the confusion.

[Sandnukka15]

I always thought this as well, but when helping someone else a few weeks ago I looked into this and API stated that Furan 2 does not hurt the bio. While re-reading just now, they say it will, lol...

Sorry for the confusion.

No problem I've been searching the net the last 5 days and I saw both as well so I was confused.

Finally some good news today. The salt has been working. It wasnt enough when I was using 1 tbsp per 10 gallons but after u guys recommended 5 cups for the 75 gallons and temps up to 88 I'm starting to see a difference. I'll continue with salt and heat with aged water changes for the next few days. Furan 2 will be here tomorrow so I'll have that on hand just in case anything happens.

2 of the discus still arent eatting tho

[jeep]

Get rid of the external issue first and they might start eating. If not, then crank up the heat after giving them a few days rest.

[Sandnukka15]

Get rid of the external issue first and they might start eating. If not, then crank up the heat after giving them a few days rest.


Thanks... sounds good we'll see how they do this next few days.

[slicksta]

No problem I've been searching the net the last 5 days and I saw both as well so I was confused.

Finally some good news today. The salt has been working. It wasnt enough when I was using 1 tbsp per 10 gallons but after u guys recommended 5 cups for the 75 gallons and temps up to 88 I'm starting to see a difference. I'll continue with salt and heat with aged water changes for the next few days. Furan 2 will be here tomorrow so I'll have that on hand just in case anything happens.

2 of the discus still arent eatting tho

Furan 2 will affect your biofilter and it is stated on the box.
I wouldn't use it in my main tank and would only use in a separate hospital tank.
Having your biofilter crash will open you up to a whole mess of new problems... jmho.

[Sandnukka15]

Furan 2 will affect your biofilter and it is stated on the box.
I wouldn't use it in my main tank and would only use in a separate hospital tank.
Having your biofilter crash will open you up to a whole mess of new problems... jmho.

Well I'd like to treat all of the discus so I guess I'm screwed lol... this salt better work than haha

[Sandnukka15]

Get rid of the external issue first and they might start eating. If not, then crank up the heat after giving them a few days rest.

I'm still adding enough salt to equal 5 cups per 75 gallons.... I want to start decreasing this as I think its stressing them out by darkening them, making them hide and a couple not eatting... how much should I decrease the salt by daily to bring it down to 1 tbsp per 5 gallons.

Should I leave the temps at 88 as I drop the salt content for another 5 days or so?

[jeep]

I would do a 50% water change and leave the temp as is. This will reduce the salt by 50% and you should be fine with that. Leave the temp at 88 for a few more days.

[Sandnukka15]

I would do a 50% water change and leave the temp as is. This will reduce the salt by 50% and you should be fine with that. Leave the temp at 88 for a few more days.

Awesome thanks... the salt looks like it's been working so I dont think I'm going to use the furan 2 right away. I'll be on vacation for 4 days and wont be able to tend the tank starting august 7th. Should I beef them up as much as possible... drop the temp to 82 the day before i leave with a big aged water change and let them be for the 4 days with no feedings? Or should i have someone feed them once or twice at least. Dont want to spoil the water

[danotaylor]

I left for Australia for 18 days and had 1 sparing feed every 3 days. I wouldn't worry about feeding them. Mine regained their condition quickly once I return to my normal regime.

[jeep]

Do exactly what you wrote and as long as they are looking good you should be fine. Someone to feed them won't hurt either but for only 4 days I wouldn't worry about it. In fact, I would not feed them the day before you leave.

[Sandnukka15]

Thanks guys!

[Sandnukka15]

Do exactly what you wrote and as long as they are looking good you should be fine. Someone to feed them won't hurt either but for only 4 days I wouldn't worry about it. In fact, I would not feed them the day before you leave.

Everything seems to be going ok except one of the green diamond discus still isnt eating

[jeep]

Nice!! Don't rush it, but in a day or so you may turn the heat up to around 88-89 and see if this sparks in interest in food.

[Sandnukka15]

Nice!! Don't rush it, but in a day or so you may turn the heat up to around 88-89 and see if this sparks in interest in food.

Temp has been at 88-89 for the past week

[Sandnukka15]

Nice!! Don't rush it, but in a day or so you may turn the heat up to around 88-89 and see if this sparks in interest in food.


Came back from vaca and everything looks good!. Bumped the temp up to 86 over 2 days with 80% water changes first 2 days back.

Thanks for the help thru all of this. I really appreciate it