Hello from sunny South Africa. I need all the help i can get

[fuz940510]

Hi everyone

My name's Kean, and i am currently residing in South Africa. I've been keeping fish in planted tanks for almost a year now, to mostly positive results.

I currently have 3 small tanks, being:
55 litre/15 gallon planted aquarium with a betta, corydoras, sparkling gourami, nerite snails and amano shrimp.
30 litre/8 gallon planted tank with endlers, which i'm going to gift to my girlfriends dad for his birthday later this year.
30 litre/8 gallon planted tank with sweet nothing but plants. Going to become a shrimp colony (hopefully).

I started to become curious about keeping discus after meeting a local enthusiast who had about 5 tanks with various breeding pairs/grow out tanks. I was quite stricken by the personality and beauty of these fish.

I'll try and summarise what i'm aiming for, and how i plan on doing it. Please let me know if i have anything wrong/what to change.

My goal isn't to raise show-worthy discus, but merely to raise them to be as large and healthy as possible. If i can wrangle another tank in past my girlfriend i might be able to setup a breeding tank, but i have my doubts. I have watched the video Joey Mullen posted of Al Sabettas talk with great interest.

Tank: Custom made, either by a company or myself, 150cm (60 inches) x 60cm (24 inches) x 60cm (24 inches) with lids. Volume should be close to 500 litres (130 gallons), as i won't fill it to the brim. I'm also tempted to try and insulate the sides with something just to minimise the energy cost, but i've heard mixed reviews on the success of this. I can't really heat the room, as i need to keep it open and ventilated to stop mold from spreading all over.

Filter: 1 x Dophin C1000 (already have) and 1 x Dophin C1600. These are the locally available equivalents of the Penn Plax Cascade filters. Output using spraybars along back top of tank for surface agitation, with intakes at back bottom corners covered with intake sponges or filter floss which will get rinsed out in old tank water each water change. Total tank turnover should be just over 4 times per hour with these 2 filters. I know most people use sponges, but the tank will be in a spare bedroom and i haven't found an air pump quiet enough to sleep next to.

I'm also tempted to get some riparium planters or some pothos and use plants to act as a nitrate scrubber. I'll use aquasoil to plant everything, which should help to buffer the pH and TDS a bit.

Heaters: 2 x 300w heaters located next to filter intakes, set to 30 celsius(86 fahrenheit).

Lighting: 1 x 150cm(5 foot) LED tube running from 8am till 4pm. The tank will be in a room with morning light and open curtains, so no sudden jump in light level. I might not get an aquarium-specific light and just rely on room lighting and natural light, or close it up completely and only rely on the aquarium light.

Substrate: None, as i'll be cleaning any wasted food after feeding and any poop at least once per day.

Hardscape: Also none, just to make cleaning easier. It will be a total bare-bottom tank, maybe with some kind of tiles just for appearances sake. Not convinced on this.

Water change: The advice I've read/heard is to do 50% per day, or 50% every second day. From what i understand raising juvenile discus needs water to be as clean as possible, hence the regular, large water changes. I might try set up a system to make this easier by either building or buying large containers for new and old water, getting a dedicated water change pump and set up a float switch to stop at the right level. New water would be dechlorinated, aged for the interval between changes and brought up to the correct temperature by another 300w heater. Old water will be used to water my garden. I'm not sure if my tap water has chloramines and heavy metals or not, so just aging might not be good enough.

Number of fish: Probably about 6-8, starting at about 5cm/2 inches across.

Food: No clue on this one. The enthusiast i met fed them some local concoction that he claimed did wonders for their colour, which i'm tempted to try. What i read/heard is that a highly mixed diet should help to provide everything needed rather than sticking to just 1 food, and to feed 4-5 times per day. I'll take all the help i can get on this front, as my knowledge on fish food is pretty limited.

My hope is to get the discus to grow quickly and healthily, and then transition the tank into a large, heavily planted low-tech planted tank once they have reached full adult size and lower the water changes to 50% once or twice per week. Tank mates will probably be amano shrimp (if they survive), nerite snails and a bristlenose pleco. I've heard that Sterbai Corydoras can tolerate the high temperature, but i'll need to read some more on that.

I'm not going to jump right into this, as I love learning as much about something as i can before trying anything. It might also take a while to get all the right equipment together.

I'm looking forward to a great learning journey with these beautiful fish, and hopefully i can have some great success :D

Thanks,
Kean

[jeep]

Hello Kean and Welcome to Simply!!! I'm not sure you need much help because you've done a lot of research and have already set yourself up for success!!

As far as food goes, if you do a search the forum for beef heart recipes you will find some great ideas and many people use BH as one of the main foods for discus. I'm not sure of the availability in S. Africa, but freeze dried black worms are an excellent source of nutrition as well. If you plan to feed live foods, do some research on the source and make sure it comes from a clean and disease/parasite free environment, and NEVER feed tubifex worms. I also feed mine Tetra Color Granules as a dry staple, but other dry foods are available as well. I feed them granules as opposed to flakes because discus like to peck for food along the bottom of the tank.
Again, I'm not sure of the availability in S. Africa, but as a beginner I would suggest you keep metronidazole, praziquantel and possibly levamisole on hand. If these aren't available over the counter you may check with a veterinarian.

If you ever add to your collection, make sure you have quarantine tanks to condition your new ones.

Good luck, ask questions and give us update on your project!!!

Brian

[fuz940510]

Hi Brian

Thanks for the welcome :)

I'll probably need to try and dig up freeze dried foods, as they don't seem to be readily available. Beef heart should be pretty easy, as there are quite a few great butchers close by. I'll definitely look up some recipes for it. There is a lot of variety of dry foods, as some suppliers supply Tetra, Hikari, Sera etc. In terms of the meds, there also seems to be a bit of short supply, but i'll check with vets and the LFS.

Content from me might be a bit slow just to get everything together, but I'll be doing plenty of reading

Thanks,
Kean

[FishFanMan]

Welcome also. I would highly encourage you to buy adult discus for your big show tank. It's not easy to grow out 2 inch juvies to 6 to 7 inches. Some will make it but others won't and you won't know how they will turn out, as in color and shape. If you buy 6 inch discus, you pretty much know the quality you're getting. Believe me, they cost much more but you'll spend more growing out set or more of the juvies. Time/effort is money too. If you get all six at one time you can skip the QT, assuming they are the first fish to go into your tank.

Beef heart mix is messy and in a planted tank it's very hard to remove uneaten raw meat. I like flakes. Trick is to find a brand they like. It's good buy food they are used to when you buy the fish. Then try to transition them to your food. The process can take weeks. As for lighting, I try to minimize the intensity and duration to keep algae from growing on my glass. You might consider led lights that you can control the blue and red colors. Depending on what discus you get, you can adjust the lights to enhance the color of the discus. Good luck!

[FishFanMan]

Forgot to mention that you should paint, a light color, the bottom of the tank from the outside. Their reflection can cause a bit of stress to them since they might think another discus is there.

[fuz940510]

Hi Koji

Thanks for the advice :) I have a 15 gallon tank that is going to be my "show tank" (with other nano fish) in the main area of my house. The big tank is going to be hidden away in a guest bedroom for my enjoyment only :D

I'm still not entirely sure how exactly i'm going to be planting the tank. I might still have a bare bottom, but have a couple of pieces of spiderwood covered in various epiphyte plants like java fern, anubias, bolbitis, some small bucephalandra etc. I might also hide some potted plants behind this in case i want something different.

For food, i'll definitely find out what the breeder has been using and start with that. He's a bit of a fanatic, so i don't doubt that the food is good quality. I've been feeding my other fish Tetra Prima Granules, which claim to be good for discus but i'll do some research on that one first.

Thanks for the tip with regards to the paint colour - I was thinking of covering the sides and back with a black film, but didn't think about the base.

For lighting, i'm thinking maybe the Zetlight Lancia 2 Freshwater version, which has RGBW leds, sunrise/sunset function etc.

Alternatively, i might go for a DIY build. I have 3 spare heatsinks from my DIY audiovisual days lying around which should be good to dissipate 150W each, so maybe the mother of all pendant light setups could be put together, with a Raspberry Pi to control everything.

Buying full grown discus might be easier...maybe i should try just keeping healthy adults before jumping in to juvenile raising. My thought was that, by going for a tank that is much larger than required for 6 discus, it might buffer my inexperience. While cost and time are certainly factors, i think the satisfaction of getting them big and healthy would outweigh that. Plus, if i am successful, maybe i can start breeding.

I'm definitely going to keep reading around this forum before making any stocking decisions though :thumbsup:

Thanks,
Kean

[bluelagoon]

Hi and welcome. You mentioned chlorine and chloramine. You really should get in touch with your water supplier to find out what they're using. They are a few ways you can find this out yourself. One is to use test stripes or a liquid test kit. You also mentioned that if your just using chlorine that you are going to aerate and age the water to remove just chlorine. That is how I do it too; no dechlo is needed. I would consider using something other than raw meet if you're not going to do large daily WC's; it fouls the water much more than most processed food. To buy show quality discus your going to be digging a lot more deeply in your pockets. To raise show quality, not many discus make it to that point out of the hole spawn and sometimes non out of a spawn. Just focus on raising young healthy discus and forgo looking for them being show quality. you'll enjoy them just as much.

[FishFanMan]

"I was thinking of covering the sides and back with a black film". This might not the best color. I believe discus try to camouflage themselves so with dark back and sides, they will turn very dark. I tried a black substrate once and all my discus turned very dark almost instantaneously. If it's heavily planted they might not turn dark, but I've had a planted tank with discus.

[fuz940510]

Hi Mervin

The trouble is that water treatment here in SA is a bit erratic. When i was at school we had a tour of 1 of the nearby water treatment plants. Giant spinning pools to flocculate particle matter, massive sedimentation machines, carbonation to lower pH etc. Which, when not working due to the semi-regular power failures we had at one point, was replaced by pool chlorine. Literally hundreds of bags of HTH, which is a local pool chlorine manufacturer. I checked out the water supplier website, and they do claim to use chloramine. Their website is here: http://www.randwater.co.za/CorporateResponsibility/WWE/Pages/tapwater.aspx
I'll want to test what my tapwater is like after i've aged it, as the high pH mentioned on the page is slightly worrying.

With regards to the discus themselves - I'm not aiming for show-worthy, just large, healthy and robust. I'd even say healthy and robust are more important than size, in my case.

For WC's, i'm hoping to do about 50% per day, if not then 50% every other day with a larger change done over weekends. Probably along the lines of 50% twice a day

For food, there doesn't seem to be any blackworm available in South Africa, and other freeze dried foods are just ridiculously expensive. Something like R150 for 1 day of food, which is about $8. For perspective, a can of coke costs the equivalent of less than $1 here. My plan is to setup an autofeeder for processed flake/granule food for the first 2 meals each day (which will be when i'm at work) and then use meat-based foods for the other meals. The last meal will be followed with cleaning the intake sponge, base and sides of the tank and a WC. My LFS sells daphnia sometimes, and i like the idea of a brine shrimp hatchery, will just need to do the research (again).

Thanks,
Kean

[fuz940510]

"I was thinking of covering the sides and back with a black film". This might not the best color. I believe discus try to camouflage themselves so with dark back and sides, they will turn very dark. I tried a black substrate once and all my discus turned very dark almost instantaneously. If it's heavily planted they might not turn dark, but I've had a planted tank with discus.
Something like a white or frosted film then? I'd forgotten that discus can "change" their colour to a certain degree

[FishFanMan]

Depending on which discus you get and how dark you like them, you should try a few different shades. After everything is setup in your tank. But you can start with white or light blue.

[bluelagoon]

Beef heart is a cheap alternative. What is your ph after 24 aeration? You can do this in a bucket. You will need more than just a chlorinator. Something like Prime or Safe.

[fuz940510]

Beef heart is a cheap alternative. What is your ph after 24 aeration? You can do this in a bucket. You will need more than just a chlorinator. Something like Prime or Safe.
I haven't tested my tap water as yet, got a bit caught up in researching stuff and sourcing medication. I've been using a local dechlorinator called Scape Dechlorination, but that only mentions removing chlorines and chloramines, no mention of what it does to heavy metals or ammonia or nitrites. I'll probably pick up a tub of Safe, as it seems more concentrated, and the spoon measurement will probably be easier than the caps.


Depending on which discus you get and how dark you like them, you should try a few different shades. After everything is setup in your tank. But you can start with white or light blue.
Great, I'll see what i can find. Thanks

[RogueDiscus]

Hi Kean,
I just skimmed this thread and wanted to add my hello and a few thoughts, and agree with others.
As mentioned above, Id go with the largest fish you can afford to start and get comfortable with their needs before trying to raise young ones. I know that's not always affordable, but that's the recommendation.
Many here, myself included, use Al, the forum owner's freeze dried blackworms, which he brings in from Australia. It's a shame if that kind of food is not available. Yes, check with your discus supplier, but otherwise find a good flake or pellet to use regularly.
Some folks paint their tanks. I just put a white layer of paper on the underside myself. You mentioned insulation. We have 4x8 foot sheets of various thickness white styrofoam insulating material available at area hardware stores. Some folks wrap their tank in that. It get's used in homemade shipping boxes alot too.
Just a couple thoughts. Good luck.
Steve

[fuz940510]

Hi Steve

White paper/cardboard will probably be easiest, really simple to swap out. Thanks.

There is a local tropical fish keeping forum that i'll ask about getting blackworm, as none of the online stores seem to stock it.

There are a few big hardware stores around, i think i've seen some styrofoam sheets there. Does it actually work? From what i understand a majority of the heat loss is through the top, so tight fitting lids make the most sense there, but then you have to worry about getting enough gas exchange.

[RogueDiscus]

The heat energy will exchange through any surface where there is a differential. It's not dependent on gravity. But since the water will move, yes, more probably goes out the top. But we're moving the water already anyway. I haven't done it, so just saying, insulating some surfaces should help.

[fuz940510]

That was my thought - I know one of the advantages of plywood tanks is that they are much better at keeping heat than acrylic or glass, but getting something like pondarmor in SA makes plywood builds fairly pointless from a cost perspective.

On the food front, one of our SA guys was importing blackworm at one point, but hasn't been active on the forum since 2017, so it's difficult to get in contact with him. Checking out blackworms.au, where he got them from, has been pretty informative. On average, how many grams per day of blackworm would be about right for 6 juveniles? And is there any benefit to the plus spinach variant?

[bluelagoon]

If you can't get freeze dried black worms, can you get freeze dried blood worms. Protein in both are about the same if they're freeze dried. I've been using them for a few years now. They are also great to get fish prepped for spawning mood. A few folks may be allergic to the protein in the blood worms. Sort'a like protein in peanuts. Feed what ever the fish will consume with no left overs. How much can vary a bit with each feeding. Always good to feed different types of food.

[bluelagoon]

oops double post

[jeep]

If you're wanting to insulate, check out this thread. It's pretty old so I imagine many of the photo's are long gone. Reflectix is very thin and easy to work with... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38372-Tank-insulation-a-money-saver!&highlight=reflectix

[fuz940510]

Not sure about freeze dried, but we can get the Ocean Nutrition Frozen Blood Worm packs, as well as the Tetra FreshDelica Blood Worm packs, which seem to be a sort of blood worm mix bound with gelatine.

I'm still in the process of trawling local forums for the food of choice for discus fanatics down here. Apparently beef heart isn't as popular here in SA due to our cattle being fed steroids, which affect discus health and fertility. It might be possible to get some game heart rather than beef heart, but will need to confirm on that.

I had a look at Danziger Discus in Israel, and they claim to only feed their fish Tetra Discus, which seems counter to what is being advised here. I understand the advise on this forum better than sticking to 1 food, so i'll go with all the types of food i can get

[fuz940510]

If you're wanting to insulate, check out this thread. It's pretty old so I imagine many of the photo's are long gone. Reflectix is very thin and easy to work with... http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38372-Tank-insulation-a-money-saver!&highlight=reflectix

I came across that thread a few months ago when the idea last popped in to my mind :D

Not sure about reflectix or local version availability, but i'm happy to go stomping around the nearby mega hardware stores (i have 3 different big brand shops within about 5 miles of my house, so i'm a bit spoilt for choice)

[LizStreithorst]

I'm terribly late to this thread. Please forgive. "I need all the help I can get" kind of spooked me. I don't know why. Sorry.

You have gotten excellent advice from everyone so far. Please go BB, at least at first. I consider plants like Anubis glued to a piece of driftwood to be the same as BB because you can clean around it. After that, plants in pots is the next step, and after you've kept the fish healthy take it from there. Even a show tank with adult Discus, and I strongly recommend adults, is a work in progress.

You remind me of another newish member here. She's also starting from scratch and like you is digging deep here to find the best way to solve her problems. Her user name is Mudpuppy. People like you are what make my job here a joy.

[fuz940510]

Hi Liz

Apologies for the extreme title, but it accurately reflected my knowledge at the time. Not that it is much improved yet...

The tank is going to be completely bare while i get into routines and habits of looking after discus, whether i go with juveniles or adults. Doing a slow transition from BB to epiphyte plants to pots to full planted does make a lot of sense, and will allow me to get everything dialed in gradually

I managed to get in contact with the breeder around food, and his advice is as follows:
"As far as food goes, we make our own mixes but also feed comercial foods like benkers frozen mix, a good flake and a good pellet, no tetra anything as it can cause bloat. The mix consists of ostrich fillet, brine shrimp flake, spirolina flake, rasp berries for vit C as well as acai for colour. I also put EPA powder in my mix."

Also, realised that i was being a bit silly for not considering sump filtration. If i set it up with a beananimal overflow and design the stand carefully, i should be able to comfortably fit another 260 litres/70 gallons of water volume, have an area in the sump for some fast growing plants to act as nitrate scrubbers and get all the extraneous tech out the tank, which will also be great. No discus getting caught between heaters and tank wall etc. Having an overflow will help with surface skimming and gas exchange too, and i can set up the output to spray across the bottom of the tank and get all the muck into suspension so the overflow can take care of it.

[Cove Beach]

Welcome to the forum! I’ve been running sumps in all my setups for years, and like you said it gets the equipment out of sight and provides for larger water volume= stability.
Another option for covering the bottom or sides for that matter is privacy film that you should find at your mega hardware store. It is used for bathroom windows or to provide shade. I have used it on the sides and bottom of breeder and hospital tanks with great success, and it can be removed later if desired.