Fry dying after BBS feed

[Artur]

Have you ever experinced small (7-10) days old fry dying soon after BBS feed? Not all of them of coures 1 or two at the time, losing about 2-5 fry fis a day.
Soon after feeding some of them start speeding and spinning, then stay on the bottom motionlessly.
I can't think of any other explanation. It happens to me for some time now, regardless fry being with parents or separated, as soon as I start giving them larger amounts of BBS.

[jeep]

Try cutting back on the BBS. They will literally eat themselves to death.

[LizStreithorst]

Have you checked your water parameters?

[CliffsDiscus]

Oodinium in the bbs cyst. Usually one or two will die
daily but after a week you end up losing
the whole spawn.
Usually treatment is with 37% formiln.

Cliff

[LizStreithorst]

Shoot Cliff, You know stuff that I knew once and have since forgotten. Is this generally due to BBS hatcheries that are not properly cleaned before their next use? Back maybe 15 years ago that was what I was doing wrong.

[Sturiosoma]

Try feeding daphnia, freeze dried or live it's a much better food than bbs.

Jeanne

[Artur]

Oodinium in the bbs cyst. Usually one or two will die
daily but after a week you end up losing
the whole spawn.
Usually treatment is with 37% formiln.

Cliff


The water is ok. Part of massive system with sump where other pairs are breeding and eggs hatching.

With Oodinum would be that quick?, i.e. soon after feed some of the fry show symptoms of stress, spinning etc. They might die 1-2 hours later.
Is there any way avoiding this using the same cysts?

[brewmaster15]

Three suggestions..

1)Feed the fry more often with the BBS and smaller amounts at a time. You can kill fry as Brian says by over feeding them especially if you are feeding them infrequently or if the parents aren't making enough slime..The fry are starving then eat too much.

2) be very sure you are not feeding shells it only takes 1 brine shrimp cyst shell or unhatched cyst to kill a fry.

3) Water changes and adequate filtration ... when you start feeding BBS alot it correlates with the fry getting bigger and growing faster.. This leads to ammonia and nitrite spikes...ammonia burns the gills and opens them up to infection. Additionally, even a small temporary nitrite spike can be lethal to fry. Its absorbed and causes brown blood disease... They start dying off at this point. Keep in mind when fish feed they excrete ammonia from their gills... imagine a tank full of fry doing that. Good filtration where the fry are is important.

hth,
al

[Artur]

Thanks for advice but I have been breeding discus for 9 years and never had this problem before. I am not talking about very small fry, fish are 7-8 days free swimming when I start to feed BBS.
Water quality is spot on and I am not overfeeding them, and you probably can't really do that with discus:
see this video from 20:27 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uc5hSas272g
It must be something in BBS as fry die soon after feeding, speeding and spinning which is often a symptom of poisoning.
I might try BBS from different source but before that I will feed next batch with microworms. We will see how it goes.

[LizStreithorst]

Where did you buy your BBS cysts. I get mine from Brine Shrimp Direct. The only time I had a problem was when I didn't clean the hatchery which was my fault.

[brewmaster15]

Arthur,
Maybe it might help if you gave us more information. Looking back at your back posts you posted a year ago..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?133459-Older-fry-dying-after-BS-feeding

Hi Guys,

Have rather unusual problem. I experience fry loses within about 2 hrs from BBS feeding.
This does apply to fry about 3-4 weeks old.
In other tank with younger fry no loses. Water is good quality, and we are talking about fry from the same pair.

Some time after feeding fry start panic and whirling the few of them die sitting on the bottom. I really narrowed it down to the fact of feeding. BBS is fresh, well strained (no unhatched eggs) and rinsed.

Have you ever experienced something similar?

Thanks

unfortunately you weren't answered then.:( But is sounds like this has been a problem you were dealing with a long time now. In the last year did you raise any batches of fry that you did not have this issue?

al

[Artur]

Yes I raised some discus but always with some loses.
After a post from last year I had a longer break from breeding not having new pairs and older pairs becoming too old.
Still using the same batch of Syberian BBS cysts though, and I used the same type in the past without any problems (different batch) as well as I used some from Brineshrimp Direct without problems. Also I raised quite a large batch of BD fry and soon after that the same pair and the same conditions resulted in big loses

I have another pair with babies on their backs at the moment and there is no way I will feed them BBS this time. Microworms culture is on the way to me and will try only this now. Many years ago when I was starting with discus I raised my first batch of discus successfully only on microworms and then beef heart mix so that should be a good test to answer some questions.

[LizStreithorst]

Please let us know how it goes with the micro-worms.

[Artur]

Please let us know how it goes with the micro-worms.

Will do. In your cases was it about just cleaning properly hatching jars?

[Artur]

Seems like the problem is gill flukes, found them on 7 day free swimming fry.

[brewmaster15]

Seems like the problem is gill flukes, found them on 7 day free swimming fry.

Ahh, now that definitely would explain alot Artur, Glad you figured it out.

al

[Artur]

Ahh, now that definitely would explain alot Artur, Glad you figured it out.

al

I would like to understand why fry are dying more after BBS feeding.

Anyway, I didn't know that fry can be attacked by flukes so early.

[brewmaster15]

I would like to understand why fry are dying more after BBS feeding.

Anyway, I didn't know that fry can be attacked by flukes so early.

I can only guess on this so please understand I am not claiming this is what happens. When fish eat they excrete ammonia from the gills as well as take up oxygen.. If there are flukes feeding on the tissue, the gills get damaged, and inflammed, open to infection. They don't work as they should.. They fish gets starved of oxygen and gets poisonesd by ammonia . When fry eat, they get excited,, swim about actively, and this makes matters worse...for some its probably too much stress and they die.

al

[Mugwump]

...time to clean and sanitize your bbs hatchery...,,,it'll bite ya every time....

[Artur]

I have been treating for flukes for over a month with PP and moving fish to new tanks. So far no signs of flukes. Time will show...