Advice for planned discus tank

[jake37]

I'm currently in the planning for a new discus tank (2 year timeline till actual creation - i plan ahead).
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Background - i have a couple of tanks now - a 30 with guppies; another 30 with a pair of gbr (1m/1f); and a 120 community tank (loaches, angels, cardinals, ...).
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All my tanks have plants but none of them have co2 injection (not sure i would do that on a discus tank).
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The 30's have matten filters and the 120 4x2x25 have a pair of 2217 eheim filters.
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Now the details for the tank I am thinking of for discus:
Size could be one of the following: 8x2 (or 3)x22; or 6x6x22 or 4x4x22 (depends on it fits in the final design) - i limit the height to 22 so i can easily reach the bottom. The thought is I would use glass canopy with fluval lights but that is subject to change.
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Part that is much more iffy and need feedback: For filtration I am thinking of have a large sump under the stand (100ish gallon depending on tank dimension). It would have a series of matten burg filter with fine floss between each one (4 or 5); then bioballs after the final filter - followed by a section that could be used for frys (should i end up with frys) followed by a overflow exit to drain and return to tank (that passes through uv filter - or should that be on the drain to the sump??). For water change I was thinking (this might not work well - never really seen one of these) something where water flow into the sump at a set-able rate but probably 1gph - and fed into the tank - if necessary it would be ro+tap de-chlorined or just tap (my gh/kh in current tank run around 6.5 which might be ok for discus - depends on source and how they are raised - i think people say 4 is perfect so maybe mix in 1/3 ro water - the target is to minimize tank maintenance.
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For tank population a bit depends on size but I was thinking something along the following if tank ends up being 4x4x22 (do discus prefer fat or long tanks?):
4 or 6 discus
22-30 cardinal tetra
6 to 10 kubati loach (if i can find them)
10 to 20 kuhli loach
2 flash pleco
some type of cory - i think 84 is too warm for sterbi - not sure any cory really likes 84 - so maybe no cory
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plants - jungle or italia val; amazon swords; various anubia; dwarf chain sword or dwarf Sagittaria; dwarf lily (for some red) and a few aponogeton (uclves, cripus, ?); there was a good article that hard recommendations I might look through it again for something else.
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for substrate I'll probalby go with stony river black - i like white moonshine sand by carib but i don' tthink it would work well with the discus.
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I might add one mystery snail - though the kubtai might chase it - and maybe a couple of siam. algae eaters or whiptail cat.
That's my general thought so things might change a little over the next couple of years - will it work?

[Phil4Discus]

Sounds like you're planning and that's the good thing! You came to the right place to get an idea and tips to make your plan work out! Welcome to the forum!

For your sump questions, I have no recommendations since I haven't messed with them (yet!), but I'll be sure to follow along this thread to pick up some tips as well.

Tank size really depends on your overall goals. I'd suggest getting a little taller tank for your discus, but too tall and it'll be harder to get enough light to some plants (if you were to want a carpeted tank you'd need a stronger light or pair of lights to ensure there is enough to promote growth). I have Fluval 3.0s and they are freaking awesome but expensive.

As for water parameters go, in my honest opinion, consistency is more key than hitting a certain number. Both of my discus tanks (125 gallon domestic and 75 gallon wild) both survive and thrive on my tap water (treated or aged of course). My water is slightly hard but pH is around 7.4 to 7.8. Depending on the size of the discus you purchase, regular water changes are absolutely a must for optimal growth so I'm weary when new discus keepers plan to "minimize maintenance" because water quality is everything to discus keeping.

As for stocking, I haven't kept loaches with my discus, but I'm sure it can be done though I wouldn't add any snails as your loaches will just eat them in my experience with my other tanks (I have 11 operating and a few on stand by). I keep corydoras, the sterbias and the albino corydoras seem to fair better than other types in warmer water. SAEs are awesome to get rid of algae, I love them and they even swim in schools with my rummynose tetras which is awesome to watch.

Since you are planning on planting, make sure you are choosing plants that will be fine in your sand substrate, you may have to consider root fertilizer tabs and other liquid fertilizers to help them thrive. Also note, with dark substrate or backgrounds, your discus can lead to peppering if they are pigeons which is a turn off for some. I have a sand substrate and I have a dwarf sag carpet growing. With a carpet, you will have to syphon vac consistently because the carpet of dwarf sag gets thick and will trap in debris. Corydoras and wave makers can help, but they are not the answer like a good vac is. So skip the carpeting plants if you are not up for the challenge.

[JamesW]

For the sump I have a similar system with no fine floss inbetween. I have 3" pads of 10, 20 and 30 ppi poret foam and that is it. I never clean them (remove and squeeze) but I periodically remove the mulm that sheds off them. I don't think the fine floss is necessary you'll just be changing it out all the time. gh/kh of 6 is fine, your fish will be happy.

Echoing Phil's comments I don't think loaches and snails will play nice.

1gph isn't that much particularly if you are looking at a 8x2x2 fish tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jake, one opening question, have you kept discus before?
Pat

[jake37]

Yea - i noted the loach would probably go after the snail. The 1gph was just an idea - it could just as easily be 2 gph (which works out 336 gallons a week). The real question is if this would eliminate or significantly reduce the need to vacuum the tank. I suppose i could also reduce the bio load a bit and that would help.

[jake37]

I have not previously kept discus hence the original question.


Hi Jake, one opening question, have you kept discus before?
Pat

[Second Hand Pat]

I have not previously kept discus hence the original question.

Sorry Jake, I did not see where you have not kept discus before. While you plan your tank I would suggest researching discus care. It is best to have experience in both planted tank and discus (separately) prior to mixing them together. Since this is long term project prehaps consider keeping discus in a BB tank has part of the learning curve.
Pat

[jake37]

Realisitically the only way I could do that is to start the tank bare bottom and then add gravel and plants later. I just won't have a tank large enough for the discus with the support avaiable (support being sump et all). I might have a spare 120 in the basement (4x2x2) with a cansiter filter but because it would be in the basement i wouldn't be able to give them much dedicated care.


Sorry Jake, I did not see where you have not kept discus before. While you plan your tank I would suggest researching discus care. It is best to have experience in both planted tank and discus (separately) prior to mixing them together. Since this is long term project prehaps consider keeping discus in a BB tank has part of the learning curve.
Pat

[bluelagoon]

Keep in mind the level of stocking also depends on the foot print of the tank. The bigger the foot print the more stock you will be able to keep, due to surface area and gas exchange caused by barometric pressure. Wider and longer is better than higher for over stocked tanks. From what you said about plants, substrate and community fish; looks like you'll be buying discus alredy grown out.

[bluelagoon]

oops! Ok, I see post # 8. Bare bottom would be best.

[Second Hand Pat]

Realisitically the only way I could do that is to start the tank bare bottom and then add gravel and plants later. I just won't have a tank large enough for the discus with the support avaiable (support being sump et all). I might have a spare 120 in the basement (4x2x2) with a cansiter filter but because it would be in the basement i wouldn't be able to give them much dedicated care.

Hi Jake, so no plans for a hospital tank?
Pat

[jake37]

There are no explicit plans but I will likely have a spare 29 (here are pictures of my current 29) or I could put a sick fish in the basement and visit it once or twice a day while it is healing. There is a bit of difference in having a temporary fish in the basement and a full-time tank.
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As to an earlier question I would probably start with young (but not tiny) discus - I was thinking 3ish inches but need to research this aspect. As a general rule I like to start with young fishes in most cases (my current angels were between nickel and quarter size when I purchased them; clowns were about 1.5 inches and so forth). I like to see how the behavior change over-time.
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Can you explain why it is more important to start with bare bottom tank? Are discus that much more problematic than angels and rams?
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My hope was to end up with something like the white tank but with a more open middle section for free swimming.

[Second Hand Pat]

Growing out discus is different then rams and angels. First discus grow into large and beefy fish and they require lots of food and clean water as juvies to grow them out well. With all the food they generate lots of poop etc. All that poop/food etc become trapped in the plants and substrate and fouls the water making the effort to grow out the fish well 100 times harder. This is why it is recommended to growout discus in a bare bottom tank as it is way easy to clean the tank and maintain good water quality.
Pat

[jake37]

So if the fishes are purchased as adults it is less important to have a bare bottom tank ?

[JamesW]

So if the fishes are purchased as adults it is less important to have a bare bottom tank ?

Typically yes.

You can grow out 3" discus in 12-18 months so if this is long term you can go with BB and add substrate later. Adding stony river sand (Estes'?) won't cause a problem if you have discus already in the tank.

One nice thing about the sump is you can have a small sponge filter running in there and if/when you need to use a hospital tank you can just take it out of the main tank and put it the hospital tank and you now have a fully functioning filter.

The reason for bb is easy vacuuming up the leftover food and poop while you are growing the fish out. That doesn't prevent you from having driftwood and plants attached to that while you do the grow out.

[jake37]

If the tank is seriously understock is poop a bad thing with regards to water quality control. Also if the fishes are a little larger (4 or 5 inches) will that alleviate some of the waste issue.
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Not all eager to have a bare bottom tank in the living room as a show piece for 2 years.
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Also that raises another issue are the discus finicky eaters or will they accept (do well) on (high quality) pellets with an occasional frozen bloodworm or flakes.
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Not sure I want to get into live foods - again the issue being providing a place to grow such - though i suppose a culture could be setup in the basement but not sure i want to go that far - the gbr i have are finicky eaters and don't really like flakes but they've been happy with pellets.



The reason for bb is easy vacuuming up the leftover food and poop while you are growing the fish out. That doesn't prevent you from having driftwood and plants attached to that while you do the grow out.

[cooper666]

Hi Jake, I am pretty new with Discus, have only had mine for three weeks (got small ones) but they are growing very fast. I credit the growth to seemingly ridiculous amounts of water exchange and unbelievable amounts of feed consumption. I'll share what I know.

Growing little ones needs heaps of feed and incredible amounts of fresh, warm water. Gravel beds harbour a universe of bugs, discus don't like them. Also, like any filter gravel beds need cleaning which is labour intensive (not for me) Bare bottom tanks can look good (IMO) you can still have plants, just don't paint the underside of the tank blue (like I did), I suggest black. Use google for ideas.

For your sump, look at the first section for good, easy cleaning mechanical filtration, followed by lots of biological filtration. I can recommend MBBR filters with K1 media. They do not build up filth like other biofilters and its worth checking out.

You can have a look at my journal if you want, but It's work in progress and is pretty far from my idea of magnificence :) Also - Im pretty fresh with discus, so take my advice with grain of salt, except the MBBR filter, that stuff is gold.

[jake37]

Bit confused - is MBBR superior to the sump (basically matten-berg filter ?
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I think part of the issue here is that the placement of the tank is problematic to discus. With the 120 i currently have - i do water changes twice a week but it always results in a bit of a mess (few drips here and there; dragging out pumps and pails; running hoses to a sink and such). The hope was to keep this as a very clean setup in the living room (hence the continuous flowing water et all). However it is starting to sound like discus are just not compatible with this sort of setup and perhaps rams or angels would be a better choice ?
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This video goes over a bit of mbbr and some of the pro/con - still not totally clear to me (trade offs) but it explains why it is self cleaning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9ovPRxMWk8




For your sump, look at the first section for good, easy cleaning mechanical filtration, followed by lots of biological filtration. I can recommend MBBR filters with K1 media. They do not build up filth like other biofilters and its worth checking out.

[cooper666]

MBBR - moving bed bio reactor. Basically you fill a container (part of your sump) with K1 media and aerate it. The constant movement of the bio media discourages baddies and detritus from building up, which they will in any static bio-filter, bio-balls or other. Its a zero maintenance bio-filter, state of the art for commercial aquaculture and aquariums alike, also its easy to set up but does require heavy aeration. The only downside is that it is noisy, but that can be dealt with by adding $ LOL. The video has a massive external MBBR, Think smaller and in the sump.

Also, IMO LOL get the 8x2 and make it 2 foot tall aswell, more is more - get the biggest glass box that you can, again, its only $

My tank is continuous flow. I don't siphon water at all, but its bare bottom and stays clean. If there is substrate, it needs cleaning.

Anyway, I hate the look of an inch of substrate against the front pane of glass, BB forever LOL

They say adult discus are fine in planted, substrate tanks. They cost big $ but they are pretty tough. IMHO I would not even try. You are right! If you like angels and plants more than discus than its a better option and there's no shame in that. Its just sensible.

[jake37]

Ok I have to think about it. Do you use mechanical filtration (floss) after the mbr to collect debris that comes off the k1?

Fyi: I'd have closer to 3 1/2 to 4 inch of substrate to support large plants - at least in the back. I've found that 2 1/2 inch in the 120 doesn't work well - so i put 3+ in my 29 as experiments.

[cooper666]

I believe it can be done - discus and planted tanks. But more experience sorrow instead of joy when trying. 3 inches of substrate = massive detritus trap and breeding ground for billions of protozoans and other stuff, but again apparently it can be done :)

I filter the water before it enters the MBBR, I have a sock full of floss and clean it daily. Any crud that make it through the MBBR cycles back through the display No reason why you couldn't filter the outlet but one filter to clean is plenty for me.

[JamesW]

It can be done. I wouldn't give up.

Take a look at my tank journal: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?127804-3-x-2-x-2-planted-discus-tank I haven't updated it for quite some time but the basic setup is what you are considering.

Planted display tank with juvenile discus. I love the fish I have and wouldn't swap them for the world but here is what I would've done differently:

Sacrificed ~12 months with large frequent WC and a BB tank to get the best growth out my discus. Discus live for a long time (>5 years easy) so the tradeoff is short term.

Bought a larger number of fewer strains and sold/traded in those that were clearly not up to quality. eg. bought 10 each of flachen and blue turqs with the aim to end up with 10 total.

If you go with continuous exchange or large WC you need to find a way to make them easy. My journal has a few pictures of how I do it. My WC requires me to turn a couple valves and that is it. No running hoses or temporary couplings.