Sick eruption, head standing, pop eye, heavy breathing

[BrendanJ23]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Pop eye, heavy breathing with gills opening really wide, head standing (from Flubendazole I suspect), not eating. I noticed pop eye and breathing approx 2 weeks ago, moved into hospital tank one week ago. I do not suspect anything unusual, as the rest of the tank is fine. He was quite dark in the main tank and looked bad, stress lines were out etc. Within 3-4 hours of moving him into the hospital tank, he brightened up and lost all the stress stripes.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

White/ clear stringy poo, pop eye, head standing, did have a white cut on its side but it has healed up completely. No bigger than a head of a match stick.
3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Initially just lots of clean water in hospital tank , salt at 2 TBSP/38 L, flubendazole 3 days ago for 24 hours, just head standed after so I stopped. I have tried epsom salt and continued rock salt, with daily 90% water changes, some times more.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
2 fish in the hospital tank, approx 4-5 inches, tank approx 60 L


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
90% or more daily

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Hospital, with cycled media from main tank

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I do, but only for the purpose of de-gassing and using the sun to heat my water . No PH swing

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Prime, on the day of the water change. Recommened dose

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp _28 C____

- ph __7.6___

- ammonia reading _0___

- nitrite reading _0___

- nitrate reading _0-5___

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water _X___

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No
11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

FDBW, Ocean nutrition pellets, tropical flake 2x daily (not all of this at once)

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.


Additional notes: Basically I am not sure what to do next. I have metroplex on hand, flubendazole and Formalin. I don't want to go medicating blindly, and it feels right to at least have a "break" between medications to avoid stressing the fish too much. I have 6 discus in total all about 4-5 inches. 4 in the main tank are doing fine and eating like pigs, the red map that is in with the sick one I'm asking about, seems ok other than white/clear stringy poo and not eating.
Look forward to any help!


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[Mando]

Hey, Brendan.

Why are you treating Flubendazole? Clear white stringy poop is usually hex and not worms.

Since tailstanding started after dosing, check out the thread below.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?30488-Flubendazole-side-effect&highlight=flubendazole

I would just do clean water for now and try not to feed to keep pristine water conditions. Hopefully the professionals chime in

[BrendanJ23]

HI Mando,

Flubendazole is all I had on hand at the time, and after a couple weeks with just clean water and salt I thought it was worth a go as I might have seen improvement.

Thanks for the link, I have already read through it and posted my experience with it :)

[Maddie]

My discus was doing the opposite. Tail down, head up. I increased the water temp to 86 and did a 80 percent water change. He's swimming normal now. I tried to look for white poop. No white poop. Little black poop. He looks normal now.

You can try that and see how it goes.

[BrendanJ23]

Anyone else?

[jeep]

I've been watching this but really didn't know what to suggest. I've never used flubendazole and after reading the side effect thread, I never will. I've seen some people say their discus eventually came out of it with very clean water, others weren't so lucky.

As for the popeye condition, I would have suggested kanamycin. All I can think of is that as long as it's not pointing straight up and down, there may be hope.

Sorry I can't provide a better idea...

[Mando]

I would just do clean water for now. Still feed if he is eating but don’t over feed. Just observe for any other side effects other than the tail standing. Any White feces?

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks guys. Yeah both have white/clear thin stringy faeces. The head stander can occasionally correct himself too. It might just be a matter of time to heal. I have upped the temps to 31.5C, additional rock salt and started metroplex

[Mando]

Thanks guys. Yeah both have white/clear thin stringy faeces. The head stander can occasionally correct himself too. It might just be a matter of time to heal. I have upped the temps to 31.5C, additional rock salt and started metroplex

Run the treatment for 10 days. 31.5c is good temp.

[danotaylor]

Brendan I don't think metroplex is 100% pure. You can buy pure metro from JehmCo.com, or if you live in Cincinnati area I can give you some as I have 1kg of 100% pure. Lemme know mate

[brewmaster15]

Hi Brendan,
I just saw this thread. Unfortunately you did use the wrong med for the problem here but I dont know if the flubendazole caused the head standing. Im guessing not. This sounded alot like protozoans when I initially read it.. Something like hexamita with the stringy clear feces so I can understand the suggestions to raise the heat and use metro. I dont want to confuse the issue but some of the symptoms you posted has me wondering if this is bacterial.. Thats my gut intuition.

White/ clear stringy poo, pop eye, head standing, did have a white cut on its side but it has healed up completely. No bigger than a head of a match stick. These arent hex symptoms... just the feces is.

The metro is a safe bet as it may help with this if its bacterial.. metro works on some anaerobic bacterias.

My suggestion is to use metro.. pure metro as Danny suggests .. you want 500-750 mgs per 10 gals for a good solid 10 days... and pick up some Kanamycin as Brian suggested incase the metro does not work.. You should see improvement with the metro after 5 days or so.. if not add the kanamycin and keep using the metro... the two.meds work well together.

I wish I had better news but I think you may lose that beautiful fish and would have even if you hadnt tried the flub... It really sounds like theres an infection internally.

I hope I am wrong.. please keep us posted..

Al

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I am in Australia so I can’t access the same drugs quite as easily but I’ll see if my local vet might be able to help me out. If I can get pure metro and the other drug mentioned then I will.

Until then I will continue on the above treatment. His eyes seem to be slightly better and not quite as popped out.

Thanks also Al for the insight. For arguments sake and learning opportunity, would an internal infection be to some issue in my husbandry? Or potentially had something underlying when I purchased him? In my main tank I do 50% daily water changes(water is aged, heated etc, no ph swing), feed a mix of FDBW and ocean nutrition pellets, BB tank, wipe down glass etc.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Brendan,


Thanks also Al for the insight. For arguments sake and learning opportunity, would an internal infection be to some issue in my husbandry? Or potentially had something underlying when I purchased him? In my main tank I do 50% daily water changes(water is aged, heated etc, no ph swing), feed a mix of FDBW and ocean nutrition pellets, BB tank, wipe down glass etc.

You sound like you are doing great and I read your backposts and saw how you switched over to barebottom.. Sometimes, these things just happen. It could start with a blockage from over eating, it could be from a natural event like tumor, or it could be that the fish carried a small amount of pathogenic bacteria...all living things can and it just got over whelmed.

Theres a disease issue, some are experiencing here... I wonder if your fish experienced this and survived the initial infection ( possibly marked by that white spot on the head..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?135565-New-member-looking-for-help-with-research-(long)

It really hard to say, but I don't believe it was your husbandry.

al

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks Al. I am unable to obtain the above meds without a vet diagnosing this first. I can get a vet to come to the house to save transporting an already sick and stressed fish.

Until then I will stay on the current treatment plan. I have a brand new 6x2x2 being delivered in the next week or so, so the discus will be going into that (not the current QT’d ones). Hopefully that will help eliminate any bacteria etc that perhaps large WC and maintenance was not addressing. There is a background in my current tank and I am concerned it may be harbouring nasties.
It’s an in wall display tank project so keep an eye out in the other section, I’m pretty excited.

Back on topic though, I have noticed since upping the heat combined with metroplex they both seem to be excreting more clear stringy poo. I am only guessing this could be them clearing out their system? Time will tell I guess.
Thanks again for your time on this one, I’ll keep everyone posted whether it’s a good or bad outcome. Fingers crossed.

[Tuterosso]

if you like your fish buy microscope :D

[BrendanJ23]

Just an update. I have finished the 12 day metro treatment. He has been darker in colour but also frequently passing yellow faeces. The other is still passing white stringy poo, but otherwise fine. I will continue the raised temps for another 7 days as recommended, with just clean water and big daily water changes.

If there is anything else I might be able to treat with, please advise. I can’t get and don’t have kanamycin, but have prazi and formalin on hand now, as well as a multi cure antibiotic.

[bluelagoon]

May I ask? Is the discus swollen in the belly? Or just along the swim bladder line? I know the eyes are popped. I'm thinking kidney disease of some sort. But just throughing that out there. The kidneys are atop of the swim bladder.

[Sturiosoma]

A tip I was given if you suspect bacteria is to treat the entire tank with 2 ppm of 3% Hydrogen peroxide per 10 gal of water and then do a water change, hydrogen peroxide is generally available everywhere

Jeanne

[jeep]

Brendan, I may have missed where you're located, but do you have access to penicillin or amoxicillin? EM? Quite possibly most meds that end with "mycin" could also be an alternative for internal issues. Do a search for "alternatives to kanamycin for fish" and something may pop up in your area. The pure forms are desired, but a packaged med may be your only option.

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks for your prompt replies guys.

There doesn’t appear to be swelling of or near the swim bladder, and never has been .

Jeep, I’m located in Australia. I don’t have access to these readily without being sick myself. I’ll see what I’ve got in the medicine box.

Sorry I should have uploaded a photo. I’ll do that today and see what you think. Thanks again for your help.

[BrendanJ23]

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[LouDogge]

Brenden, I recently had a fish just like this. Looked the same and did head standing at times. Nothing I did seemed to do anything. I euthanized the fish as I couldn’t see a recovery happening. Not sure what the heck happened as I have a tank of others doing quite well. Best of luck.

[bluelagoon]

That discus don't look like it will pull through. Too much damage to the tissues caused by the edema.

[Mando]

Poor guy and I'm sorry this happened to you. He looks worse than before and I agree with bluelagoon. You might have to put him down.

[BrendanJ23]

Hi Everyone, just an update again.

So yesterday I started reading into euthanasia etc. It's not something I took lightly, but I wanted to try one more thing. I had tetracycline on hand and thought it was worth a shot to dose that and see how he went ( note: the red map was removed from the tank and added to the main tank again as he was eating and pooing as normal again). Well in less than a 24 hour bath, I woke up this morning to a brightly coloured non headstanding fish. I performed a 50% water change and then watched him for 30mins or so. He actually swam around normally, but still kind of running into the glass at times. I am putting this down to the cloudy/pop eye that is still present. The swelling of the eyes even seems to be going down. While he is not out of the woods yet, I was quite surprised to see such a change in a short amount of time. I will upload some more photos when I get a chance and keep you posted. Fingers crossed

[Mando]

Wow! What a turn around?

[BrendanJ23]

So this morning the tank water was pretty gross, and had changed from yellow to red. My assumption is that this is when the medication is “done”. I’m probably wrong but if someone knows, please correct me. Aside from that, I performed 100% water change and the fish showed the same behaviours: swimming around normally, brighter and just generally looking better. The eyes seem to be going down as well. The only thing I’m not sure about is the orange looking poo that can be seen in one of the photos below. Either way I think I’ll stick on this path as it seems to be working, with maybe a small rest between treatments (6-8hours? Less) and just have clean water.

Anyway thanks for reading and look forward to your comments .



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[bluelagoon]

Did this discus recover?

[jeep]

Sorry, I missed the updates. I'm curious as well. If this was a ruptured swim bladder there would have been no improvement.

Just make sure you run the full course of tetracycline.

[BrendanJ23]

He seems to have plateau’d. I’ve done 4-5 days of tetracycline with daily WCs. He sometimes head stands for a bit then swims around normally usually just before/after a waterchange. I really don’t know. He doesn’t seem to be getting worse or better. I think I’ll do a few more days of tetracycline. I have dropped temps back to 28-29C since starting the tetracycline. Any ideas?

[sayid]

Hi Brendan;
I just saw your thread,eruptions are notorious for swim bladder problems ,i probably have lost 12 eruptions with this, in 2 of the cases i used minocycline on the advice of AL and it worked ,but swim bladder problem will take time in my case some time month or more . Minocycline is a close family of tetracycline ,my advice would be to do the full course of tetracycline and just clean water after that,you can reduce the height of the water in your hospital tank to reduce the pressure on the swim bladder . i am in Melbourne and i can help you with the medication if you ever need any .goodluck

[jeep]

He's been this way for awhile so it'll take some time to get better. The fact that he's come this far is proves he's a fighter. Tetracycline is I think a 4-6 day treatment depending on the brand and strength. I'm not sure about re-dosing but I'll look in to it

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks for the insight guys. I’m quietly confident but I figured it would take weeks possibly longer to get back to full health, if he does at all. I’ll keep this thread posted

[jeep]

I can't really see anything specifically about redosing, but I would wait at least 5-6 days if you do. Here's some general articles about tetracycline and other antibiotics you may find helpful.

http://shellfish.ifas.ufl.edu/wp-content/uploads/Handout-1_EDIS-Circ.-84_Use-of-antibiotics-in-ornamental-fish-aquaculture.pdf

https://www.thesprucepets.com/tetracycline-1379928

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks Brian, appreciated. I did come across the spruce pets article the other day. It has some surprisingly good content that seems accurate.

At the moment he is just in clean water, but has reverted back to head standing the majority of the time. I've dosed some Epsom salts this morning just in case there in a blockage somewhere. I'll do a WC in a few hours from now back to clean water and continue from there. I really don't know what else to do at this point.

[BrendanJ23]

Update: So this morning I made the decision to euthanise the fish. I was out of options and had just about tried everything. He had been sick for a number of weeks/months and it was a real rollercoaster for me, he would seem like he was getting better and then would get worse again. This fluctuated quite a bit and I couldn't get any real consistency. I spoke with my partner about it and decided he had been in pain for long enough and we had done everything within our power to try to make him better again.
I've learnt a lot along this journey and I think probably the most valuable thing I have learnt is to try and pick up on sickness as soon as possible, and treat as soon as possible. Thanks to everyone for all their input and advice.

I did have one remaining question that I haven't been able to find an answer to yet - are there certain types or strains of discus that are more delicate or predisposed to illness as opposed to others? The reason I ask is that someone commented saying that they have lost 12 Penang Eruptions as seperate times to illness and believed that to be true. Yes it is hard because there are so many variables and thats only one persons experience.

[jeep]

Well, you certainly did everything you could. I went through the same battles years ago with head standing and had the same results. A little improvement here and there followed by complete relapse. The one think I did conclude is that swim bladder issues usually begin long before they become evident, and by then it's too late.

To answer your question, unfortunately I've heard Eruptions are one of the more delicate strains. When I was working with them some time ago, I think I was lucky enough to acquire some genetically strong LSS's with excellent spotting and never had any issues with them or their offspring. More recently, I haven't been so lucky and have had them drop like flies. Depending on the breeder, many Eruptions are fed hormones very early on in order to bring out the red spotting and separate the higher "quality" for a higher price, but this can also cause organ damage down the road. Al has told me several times that he avoids LSS's for these reasons.

[danotaylor]

You fought the good fight mate. Sorry for your lost. Bugger :(

[BrendanJ23]

Thanks Brian, interesting about the eruptions/LSS. I’ve been just about pulling my hair out as my other eruption has just gone into hospital. Not headstanding or anything major yet, but I feel I’ve got onto treatment early. Yet in the same tank, two red maps and a mongrel yellow PB eat like pigs and strut around the tank like they own the place. I guess I might end up with a tank of just red maps lol. While we’re at it, any other delicate strains I should know of?

[jeep]

Not that I'm aware of, but I only returned to the hobby less than 2 years ago. A lot of things have changed.