Pool Filter Sand (PFS) types

[janivr]

Hi,
I'm interested in using PFS in my Discuss planted tank. I will have plant soil substrate at the back of the tank for plants. The front will include sand only.
There are so many PFS types. How do I know which type to choose? How do you choose? BTW - live in Israel...

Thanks

[Filip]

Israel use metric system i presume , just like in Europe .Ask for 0.3 to 0.8 mm grain size of PFS sand .
Finer would dust and can be easily siphoned out , and coarser will let debris collect in it so this size is a sweet spot that we ussualy use for discus .
Ask for Quartz , Silica based (Sio2 ) sand because they are chemically inert .

[janivr]

Thanks,
Which one of them will be good?

http://www.s-w.co.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/silicasand00.pdf

http://www.s-w.co.il/_Uploads/dbsAttachedFiles/silicasand0.pdf

Thanks again

[Filip]

The first one falls in that 0.3-0.8 mm range . Second one is close but still a little coarser.
P.S. It would be a real challenge to separate the subsrate in the back not to mix with your front sand. Stone and wood structures should help you achieving this .

[14Discus]

I use coarse sand/fine gravel. The fine PFS stuff is too easily sucked up when doing vacuuming while this stuff stays put. Also, there is no way any of the coarse sand will get mistakingly taken in by filters ruining the impellers. By vacuuming each WC, any super fine gunk settling in the substrate is quickly removed. Larger debris remains on the top of the coarse sand.

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[Doogy262]

If your looking for truly white sand this is what I use...https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mystic-White-II-Swimming-Pool-Filter-Sand-50lb-Bag/44578380

[danotaylor]

I like this stuff, it's tan and very natural looking and coarse enough not to get suck up or pack down.
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[bluelagoon]

I'm in Canada and use #2 silica from Home Depot or Shaw Brick. 50 lb. bag about $10. Looks like the above in colour.

[Sturiosoma]

I use coarse sand/fine gravel. The fine PFS stuff is too easily sucked up when doing vacuuming while this stuff stays put. Also, there is no way any of the coarse sand will get mistakingly taken in by filters ruining the impellers. By vacuuming each WC, any super fine gunk settling in the substrate is quickly removed. Larger debris remains on the top of the coarse sand.

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Can you get in this with a phython and clean with out suckling it up

[Sturiosoma]

I like this stuff, it's tan and very natural looking and coarse enough not to get suck up or pack down.
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Can you clean this with a phython

Jeanne

[gators111]

You want the sand like kosher salt, not table salt. Then a python vacuum won't suck it all the way up the tube. Some fine particles will, but most will go a third to half way up the tube and then fall back down. The problem with the carib sea and other brands is that it is either too fine or its expensive, which defeats the purpose of using pool filter sand. Sorry, but I'm not familiar with any big box home improvement stores in Israel. In the US, I'd direct you to Home Depot.

[janivr]

Thanks,
How do I know if the vacuum will sick the sand or not? Can I tell by the parameters I put up here earlier?
Thanks

[danotaylor]

Yes Jeanne. This stuff is graded, so almost every grain in the same size. Some of the very small grains that pass through the grading process will get sucked out, but 98% will stay behind when gravel vac'ing

[LizStreithorst]

But isn't the point of using PFS the fact that the poo and crud stays on the top so you can just skim over the substrate when you clean your substrate with the python. I'm new to this kind of thing and trying to figure out which is the best.

[Sturiosoma]

I to Liz am new to sand and I cannot have a tank whether I'm keeping guppies or discus, I have to be able to get on the bottom and clean the substrate and what has kept me away from sand is the ability to clean without sucking it up I want a sand that is fine but not so fine that you

remove when you clean

Jeanne

[janivr]

Exactly, me too.
The question is, how do you know it before you use it.

[LizStreithorst]

usually, someone here has the definitive answer. It hasn't happened yet. So far I'm leaning toward PFS.

[Disgirl]

I will try Liz. I used to use PFS, from a local pool supply store. $12 for about 50 lb bag. The idea with the sand is that fish poo and uneaten food will just sit on top of the sand so you can easily see and remove it. If you use a Python, just hover the tube over what you want to pick up. The suction will draw it up the tube with the heavier sand falling back down. Just don't put that tube into the sand. Every few days you can stir up the sand with a hand, spoon, anything. It will help keep pockets of gas and bacteria from building up. But you certainly don't need top do this too often. Depends on how deep you have the sand. I would recommend only 1-2" of sand. Deeper could make stirring it up once in awhile too hard. More questions? Just ask.
Barb

[farebox]

Hey guys, after reading thru this thread, you all got me to go out to Leslie Pool supply and purchases an 50lb. bag of PFS for my 125G Discus tank. Just laid downed a thin layer of sand, less than 3/4". Many yrs. of BB tank, liked the new look. Will run an hose siphon over the top of sand to remove the dirt. Also have potted plants in the tank, used plant substrate in clay plant pots from Home Depot.

[danotaylor]

I would say the answer to your question is yes Liz, a light skim. The #20 quartz sand is still coarse enough for fine particles to settle into the top 1/2" or so but it is heavy enough that you can vac it without losing much. The finer sand can breed anaerobic bacteria and produce gas pockets that can be harmful if/when they're disturbed, so I routinely use the gravel vac to prevent that, even with the #20, just out of habit :)

[LizStreithorst]

I will try Liz. I used to use PFS, from a local pool supply store. $12 for about 50 lb bag. The idea with the sand is that fish poo and uneaten food will just sit on top of the sand so you can easily see and remove it. If you use a Python, just hover the tube over what you want to pick up. The suction will draw it up the tube with the heavier sand falling back down. Just don't put that tube into the sand. Every few days you can stir up the sand with a hand, spoon, anything. It will help keep pockets of gas and bacteria from building up. But you certainly don't need top do this too often. Depends on how deep you have the sand. I would recommend only 1-2" of sand. Deeper could make stirring it up once in awhile too hard. More questions? Just ask.
Barb

That's exactly what I needed to know. Thanks Barb!

[Filip]

But isn't the point of using PFS the fact that the poo and crud stays on the top so you can just skim over the substrate when you clean your substrate with the python. I'm new to this kind of thing and trying to figure out which is the best.

I totally agree Liz.
Going with coarse , almost gravel size PFS , defeats the purpose of using PFS sand and that's not letting the debris and gunk accumulate with in . Gravel size for easier siphoning recommended here , seems counterproductive to me .
Even if you suck some PFS up during multiple siphonings you can always refresh it with new sand , because it's dirt cheap. When I want to go deep and thorough with my siphoning I just use a bucket at the end of my siphon so that sucked up sand stays there instead of going in the drain with the water flow .

[janivr]

So you vac the entire sand to prevent the anaerobic bacteria and gas pockets, or what?
Thanks.

[Filip]

So you vac the entire sand to prevent the anaerobic bacteria and gas pockets, or what?
Thanks.

Nope , just the surface and occasionally stir a maximum of 1 -2 Cm depth with your fingers during the siphoning .
Deep sand bed holds toxic gasses and anaerobic bacteria that aren't supposed to be disturbed .
When I go 1-2 CM in depth stiring I use the bucket at the end to prevent the sand going down the drain , and I get the sand back in the tank ,once I'm finished siphoning.

[janivr]

And how much cloudy it gets?

[bluelagoon]

When I kept discus in a planted tanks, I siphoned around the roots and did deep cleaning quite often. A lot of waste from plant decay and fish waste. Now, I never used sand when I had planted tanks. I found that plants grew better in a coarser substrate like pea stone. The plants didn't seem to like sand and the compaction. A looser substrate seemed to give the roots the air they needed just like terrestrial plants need. I know this don't make a lot of since cause in nature plants grow in mud, but we're in a glass box and we're talking about discus. When I started not doing the substrate around the plants, weeks later they started the white poop thing and were treated. I have sand in two tanks now, it gets dirty and it still needs deep cleaning with a python.

[danotaylor]

I agree with Mervin, and still deep clean my sand, though the #20 quartz doesn't compact it's large enough for small particles to settle below the surface requiring a good clean every week.
If you wash it thoroughly before adding it to your tank it shouldn't cloud the water when you clean it

[gators111]

Has anyone actually had fish die from a sand bed producing a gas pocket that released and killed their fish? Actual, first-hand knowledge, not heard from a friend, who heard from a friend, who read it on the interwebs somewhere. Because I've had sand substrates for years, had gas pockets form and release while cleaning the substrate, and nothing has ever happened to any of my fish.

[danotaylor]

No, not me mate. I clean it regularly enough so the anaerobic build up & gas pockets don't happen. I described a "potentially harmful" situation, not lethal. We all know the key to keeping healthy discus is clean water and to minimize stress. For me, that's what keeping the sand bed well cleaned is all about.

[janivr]

https://youtu.be/trlFfLyVJOc

This is how you do it?

[bluelagoon]

I too cleaned the substrate regulaly even in non planted tanks for discus. Not for gas bubbles more so for anaerobic pathogens like Hex parasite build up. For some reason I find discus to be susceptible to Hex if you don't keep the substrate clean. Now, this has been my experience with discus both wild and domestic. The wilds seemed to do better in planted tanks becuase of the lower ph and smaller regular WC's. That is one thing planted tanks have to offer and that is a lower ph that discus thrive in. My planted tanks had PH of 5.5-6.7 which also keeps some pathogens at bay. I had planted tanks that didn't need that much substrate cleaning but weren't discus tanks. These days I wouldn't take chances with planted domestic bred discus and not keep the substrate clean because we can't buy antibiotics any more in Canada.

[FishFanMan]

Just wanted to say PFS is great but be careful as it can scratch the glass easily. I stopped using it when I bought my new tank. When I was using it I sucked out all of it monthly and replaced it with new sand. I found it holds a lot of gunk and it was just easier to replace it than trying to keep it clean.