Thanks to you guys, I have fast growing babies!

[kev1310]

I’d just like to say a big thank you to you guys here on the forum. I’ve kept discus (on and off) for 30 years now and had dozens of spawnings that I’ve tried to raise but always had trouble with the 4 week syndrome. Anyway after setting up my new fish room last winter I bought myself some more discus, determined to finally crack it.

I had a brood from a pair of turqs in June and despite treating for flukes weekly through the 4 -10 week period, I still ended up culling the whole brood. Sadly after this first brood the female developed swim bladder disease and I lost her. This left me with just my favourite pair. They must have spawned a dozen times but the male appeared to be infertile as not a single egg was fertilized. They were however perfect parents, they got on brilliantly and never ate the eggs - I was having to remove the cone after 4-5 days and clean it because they refused to eat the now fungused eggs. After about a dozen spawnings they went off cycle.

In September they spawned again, and I was so overjoyed to see some fertile eggs I almost did a little jig! Only about 50 of the eggs were fertilized but I decided to let them raise them. This time though, I did an awful lot of reading on here, taking special note of Brian and Pat’s grow out challenge results. (thanks so much guys!!).

I prepared two 18x15x15 rearing tanks and placed them above my water storage tank. This was my main difference from the grow out challenge. Realising I needed to make much larger water and more frequent water changes I opted for smaller tanks to make maintenance easier.

At 3 weeks old I removed 17 of the babies to the first tank. At this point they were being fed heavily with BBS but they were already taking an interest in FDAB in the parents tank so this was introduced as well. The young hatched on 12th September, today, 29th October, 47 days later, the largest fish is now 52mm total length and I’ve never experienced growth like it! When I put the blackworm in I have to be careful not to squash a baby to the glass because they’re on it like a pack of piranhas! At the weekend I culled three and moved three weaker ones into the other grow out tank leaving the strongest 11 in the tank.


My typical routine with them is:

6.30am feed beefheart
7.15am 90% water change
7.30am feed FDAB

Go to work

5pm Feed beefheart
8pm Feed pellet
11pm wipe base followed by 90% water change
11.10pm Feed FDAB

They may get an additional feed here and there if I’m in the fish room too. They were also fed BBS 2-3 times a day up to 40 days old.

Twice a week before refilling the water I wipe the sides down

Once a week they are getting a PP bath in the tank, followed by 150% water change to remove any remaining PP.



What about the others?.....

In the breeding cube I was changing 30-50% of the water each day and wiping down every other day before water changes. My intention was to leave the remaining babies with the parents for as long as possible to compare the different methods, the food fed was similar to the separated ones though. A week after separating the first 17, it was clear that the separated ones were growing faster than the ones left with parents. Sadly, at around 4 weeks, after being such a brilliant pair, they started arguing big time. I left them together for another 3 days hoping they would resolve it, but no, so I removed both parents to my stock tank (causing chaos!!) and transferred the remaining young to the other grow out tank where they got the same food and water regime as the ones removed at three weeks. Today the largest of these fish is probably about 45mm.

Observations:

The babies removed to their own tank with massive water changes at 3 weeks, not only grew faster than the remainder, but also more evenly and have better shape. I estimate the remaining 11 are all between 47 and 52mm, all 11 are larger than the ones removed from their parents ten days later.

A couple of days ago I culled the brood down from 44 to 26 and I think I will have to cull another 2 or 3 weaker ones yet. Of all of the culls, four had deformaties, three were obviously just not growing and the rest just weren’t thriving so I slimmed the group down to just the strongest. Out of the 19 culls, only three came from the first 17 to be moved to the grow out tank and 2 of those were for deformaties.

There were far more growth issues with the ones taken from their parents later, even though they got fed the same and were still eating the parents slime through the day when I was at work.

I intend to leave them in the small tanks for as long as possible as it’s so much easier to maintain (I can do a 90% water change on both in a little over ten minutes), but at the current growth rate of over 1mm per day I think they’ll need to be moved by the time that they’re 8 weeks old.

Fingers crossed, this time I’ve got it licked!

Male

125395

3rd October

125396

20th October

125397

28th October

125394

[kev1310]

Sorry about the orientation of the pics, they look fine on my pc, doh!

[LizStreithorst]

Very nice brood. Big congrats! The extra work is worth the results, isn't it?

Try reducing your pics more. They should post straight then.

[jeep]

Congratulations! You've done your homework and it's paying off!

I see you've been here since 2010... Nice to see you posting ;)

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi kev1310 and so glad the growout threads were helpful to you. The fry look great. :D I would suggest going light on the PP. It can hurt the gills of young fish.
Pat

[kev1310]

Thanks guys, yep, I did A LOT of reading including all of the posts from the 2018 grow out challenge, if I can grow these half as well as you guys I'll be more than happy.

My current grow out tank set up is much quicker and easier to maintain than my last brood which was the other side of the fish room and water had to be drained to buckets and refilled from buckets, here it is simply drained to the sink and refilled by pump from my storage tank. Lesson learned, the easier it is the more likely you are to do it!

Their growth this time has astounded me, I swear every time I look in the tank they are bigger than the last time!

After treating the previous brood from different parents for flukes I became more and more convinced that it was bacterial issues I was suffering with and not flukes, hence why I decided to use PP this time, helped by this article from Wattley https://wattleydiscus.com/raising-discus-babies-preventing-the-30-day-syndrome-with-potassium-permanganate/ I've left them in for 30 minutes with no obvious stress from the babies but I'll probably cut this down to 15 minutes for the next one.

Yep, I've been around for a while, on and off. But it was only moving house last year and the construction of the new fish room that really gave me the space to focus my efforts a lot more this year. Seeing how good you guys are and the trouble I was having raising young kind of put me off posting lol. I only have room to raise maybe 30-40 at a time so I'm pretty small scale. I'm currently running 12 tanks although I have room for a few more yet, 5 of those are currently stocked with Corys though.

One thing I really learned with this fish room is that you should finish it BEFORE stocking - once you have fish to look after time is much more at a premium to work on the fish room itself!

Thanks again guys!

[Second Hand Pat]

The problem with Gabe's approach is you have no idea on how much pp to actually use. If you insist on using PP with fry use Kenny's approach and you can do this by eye. First wipe down all tank surfaces and do a large water change. This is to remove as many of the organics in the water as possible. Add a little bit of PP of a small cup with water. Pour a small amount in the tank. You are looking for a very light pink color so add small amounts until you get the light pink color. You want to maintain the light pink color for six hours so add small amounts of the PP/water mix as needed. At the six hour mark do another large water change. Done.
Pat

[peewee1]

The problem with Gabe's approach is you have no idea on how much pp to actually use. If you insist on using PP with fry use Kenny's approach and you can do this by eye. Finish wipe down all tank surfaces and do a large water change. This is to remove as many of the organics in the water as possible. Add a little bit of PP of a small cup with water. Pour a small amount in the tank. You are looking for a very light pink color so add small amounts until you get the light pink color. You want to maintain the light pink color for six hours so add small amounts of the PP/water mix as needed. At the six hour mark do another large water change. Done.
Pat

What is "pp"? Thanks.

[Second Hand Pat]

What is "pp"? Thanks.

Potassium Permanganate

[LizStreithorst]

I disagree with the pp advice as well.

Never be too shy to post. You found out your self that we are kind hearted here. And a big please, post when you see someone needing help. You know a lot now. You can help others.

[kev1310]

Thanks Pat / Liz, I'll try a lighter dose for longer at the weekend like you suggest :)

[Tshethar]

Congrats! Love seeing people continuing to document and share their experiences. I pretty much crashed and burned in that grow out challenge but it was a good learning experience, and I found it very helpful to pay attention to what other people were doing.

Also, by sharing your regimen you prompted Pat to mention something about her approach to PP use, which is a helpful complement to some old threads I've searched up.

Anyway, keep it going--looks like you're going to be rewarded with a nice batch!

[kev1310]

Thanks Bill, hopefully it will go ok, we'll see how it goes but this is definitely the best start I've had so far.

I've reared young from 2.5" up successfully before and these guys are almost at that point now. I'll try and keep documenting how they go, they have visibly grown from the pic above and that was only taken 3 days ago! What is definitely clear is that the young removed at 3 weeks are much stronger (and greedier!) than the ones removed at 4.5 weeks.

[kev1310]

Just a quick update.

The pic below shows the young at 8 weeks old. These are the 11 (from the initial 17) that I removed from the parents at 3 weeks and they’re just going from strength to strength. I moved them to a 36x15x18 at the weekend from their smaller rearing tank and can already see growth since then. When I moved them at the weekend they ranged from 55mm to 65mm. There is still zero aggression shown between this group even when feeding, all they do is swim up and down. I drain the tank they’re still swimming end to end, I refill it, they’re still swimming end to end, nothing phases them at all, they only stop to feed!

Despite being raised in exactly the same conditions, the ones removed from their parents at four and a half weeks have been an almost complete failure in comparison.

Out of the first group of 17, 3 were culled and 3 were moved into the second group as they weren’t keeping up with the other 11, I still have the remaining 11.

Out of the remaining 27 that were removed from their parents ten days later (plus 3 from the first group) they were initially culled down to 19. This group has always been very different to the first though. The first group have always been very bold, this group has always been very timid. They always hide for an hour or two after water changes whereas the first group were back out looking for food within 30 seconds of the tank being refilled. One died last week, it was fine one evening, looked off colour when I left for work in the morning, black when I got back and dead 3-4 hours later. The next day another 4 went dark and started hiding so they were removed and culled to prevent further spread. I am now down to 9 in this group and it still includes the three from the first group (they’re still bigger) and to be honest, I could easily cull these down to 3 or 4 but I’m trying to keep the numbers up. They’re looking ok, things have stabilized but they’re never going to make good fish like the first group.

The tank set ups were side by side, same size, same temperature, same type of filter, water from the same storage tank, fed the same, treated the same, the only real difference is when they were separated from their parents.

125634

[Mando]

Good observation and the fry look great!

so, the group pulled @ 3 weeks are doing better than the group pulled @ 4 weeks? Maybe too much time with mom and dad create a dependent personality where as the others are more independent, more adventurous, and have a bigger appetite?

I saw you culled based on growth rate too, sometimes discus that show some delayed growth rate come around. I believe Brain's growout had a runt that became the biggest fish in the tank. Could you have waited to cull the slower growers at a later time or was it an extreme delayed growth rate?

[hironobu]

So cool to see all your hard labor paying off. I'm excited to keep following you and see how the babies turn out. Discus genetics have always fascinated me.

[kev1310]

Yep, the group pulled at 3 weeks are doing great, I’ve no idea why the others haven’t considering once they were pulled they were placed in identical set ups, the only difference I can see is the age at which they were pulled so maybe they are more independent because they were separated sooner.

Yes, there were some that were showing an extreme delay in growth so these were culled. The biggest fish in the second group is almost as big as the smallest in the first group although there a lot more variance in size and there’s definitely a bully. They aren’t as well shaped and one should definitely be culled as it has a short gill plate, however I intend to keep growing these out and see what happens, as you say they may put on a growth spurt at some point.

Yep, can’t wait to see these guys colour up, I’m hoping I get at least a couple like the male but it will be interesting to how they compare to both parents.

[Willie]

Congratulations. Getting discus to spawn is the most exciting part of the hobby. And you'll have much more success going forward since a pair can spawn monthly.

So many threads here focus on trivialities, lighting type, filtration systems, esoteric foods... At the end of the day, it's so simple. Change water, clean the tank and feed with high protein foods like beefheart. Your fish will grow big and grow round.

Raising discus is just another example of KISS.

Willie

[kev1310]

Ok, time for a quick update!

These guys hit 12 weeks old at the weekend, I now have ten in each group, the first group is still growing much better than the second. The biggest couple are just nudging 90mm already :D

I do however have one that is pretty consistently black in the first group. It seems behavioural as it's not hiding, doesn't have clamped fins or anything I would like to say it's first to the food but it's first with nine others as they're like a pack of piranhas! After watching this tank for hours, there is no bullying or aggression whatsoever, however the dark one does appear submissive occasionally towards the others even though they're just swimming up and down minding their own business and not bother by it at all. It's not a runt either, he's the 3rd or 4th largest. Equally, 3 seconds later he can be the same colour as the others, so weird.

At the minute they're still getting a 90% water change every day and that seems to be doing the trick, they're looking like they could grow pretty big!

126042

126043

The first picture is the latest, the one in the hand was 11 weeks old.

[Mando]

Looks great! they are getting nice and round. I have one of 7 that is usually dark because he stays by the filter. As soon as food comes in, he's back to his normal color and destroying the food. His feces is clean so I'm not worried. In my case, I did notice what looks like a pair forming so I think each discus is picking their "chill out" corner while the pair does its thing.

I plan to break up the pair though.

Don't put too much thought into your dark guy unless you start seeing white feces.

both groups produced runts or do you feel the first group (taken away from parents early on) are more consistent in size?

[kev1310]

Hi Mando,

yep, I'm really pleased with the shape of all of them in the 1st group. Both groups have produced runts, but out of the original 17, ten are still in the first group, four were relegated to the second group and three were culled. I would like to point out that when I took the first group it was just a net swipe, they weren't specifically chosen at all. While there is a little variation in size (about 75mm to 90mm) they all have great shape.

Not sure what went wrong with the 2nd group, but right from the day of separation they were never as happy as the first group. They seem perfectly happy now, but none of them are as big or round as the ones in the first group and there are deformaties in some of the remaining ones but I'm trying to keep the numbers up. The issue appears to have been early on though seeing as out of the second ten, four were originally in group 1. The rest were all culled for various reasons and I had one death.

As for the black one, I've no idea what its issue is. Like yours, it eats like a pig, poops nice dark poop and mine is swimming up and down with the rest too.

[pantherlax]

Fascinating thread, thanks for providing all the details. I'm taking notes!

[danotaylor]

Great job and great thread Kev!!

[Tshethar]

Great job and great thread Kev!!

+1 Congrats and thanks for sharing your progress!

[kev1310]

The thanks really need to go to all of the the grow out challenge guys and gals, I learned a lot from reading all of their posts and seeing how quickly and well their fish developed and it seemed only fair to give something back by documenting my attempt as well. It was the grow out challenge that really gave me the motivation to make major changes to what I'd been doing. I just need my pairs to cooperate a bit more now so I can see if I can repeat my success :whip:

[kev1310]

Well the speed at which these guys are still growing is still astounding me, they won't be 4 months old until 12th Jan and the largest is around 105mm already :D I think I'm going to have some big fish! They're a little pointy nosed but then the parents are too but I love them.

I've moved one out into the second group which is also coming on well now although are maybe only 85mm. Colour is just starting to show, although interestingly the second group are colouring up before these guys are for some reason.

10th November

126216


1st December

126217


3rd Jan

126218

[seanyuki]

PP for babies not a good idea......it may burn their gill plates.I rather use Praziquantel for gill flukes for babies....you confirmed they have gill flukes?

[kev1310]

Hi Fancis, sorry I missed this before.

I've not had them confirmed no, I don't even know how I would go about that here. I have previously used wormer plus and prazi pro multiple times though and still lost entire broods. The PP treatment made a noticeable improvement even just a few hours later. I know some people don't like it, but for me it's the only thing that has made a difference.

[kev1310]

Time for a quick update I think, now 8 1/2 months old and colouring up nicely :)

127758

127759

[bluelagoon]

Very nice and interesting.

[Willie]

Nice job. Who says discus in a barebottom tank are ugly? :devil:

Willie

[kev1310]

Thanks Willie! As the first babies of my own that I've raised I'm absolutely loving them and have vowed not to sell any of them!

This group are all between 5 - 5.5" at the minute. They've been raised in a 36x15x18 since they were 2.5 months old, water changes have dropped off to about 75% daily now, mainly because I don't like pancaking them lol.

[bluelagoon]

One can really see the difference in well raised discus. They look great. Lots of fresh water and care is a must to get discus this far and look like that.

[coralbandit]

Nicely done !
I have never read that young fish should not be exposed to PP done properly .
I will go as far as to say a good part of your exceptional growth can be attributed to the use of PP !
This from one of my favorite PP articles ;
Positives observed with regular potassium permanganate treatments
2. The PP reacts away the stuff the fish give off in high population densities, which stunts growth. Chris Neaves has posted the information several times on the message board at www.koivet.com about the effect and its cause, but left off the PP cure for the problem, I wrote him privately asking him why doesn’t he list the proper cure with the problem.
3. The buildup of manganese stimulates fish growth, the technical literature states that the highest growth rate occurs at 100 PPM manganese levels, and decreases growth at levels of 600 PPM and above.
Taken from DR Roddy M. Conrad [ PHD in chemistry and rocket science !~ ]; https://web.archive.org/web/20160312194131/http://www.jackmcneary.com/html/potassium_permanganate_.htm

You have great growth with both the PP and water changes . Well done ,very nice fish !:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[LizStreithorst]

Lovely fish. Sounds like you will be starting a line of your own. You should. Breeding your own line is very satisfying. Tom knows that from his rams.

[kev1310]

Thanks guys!

Yes, without a doubt the PP treatments made a huge difference when they were young Tom. I've always had issues with the 4 week syndrome even though I've treated for flukes with several different products over the years I've never managed to raise broods only odd fish. Either my issue wasn't flukes or I had drug resistant flukes but PP nailed it for me. On all but one occasion the fish didn't even sulk, I treated the tank, drained, wiped down, filled with fresh water and they were looking for food again almost straight away.

Hi Liz, yes, I have thought about following this line. I particularly liked the yellow throat area on the dad, not many of the young have it (as yet) but it's definitely something I would like to develop if possible, I can't wait for these guys to start breeding!

I do still have ten fish in the second group as well although three or four of those should have been culls but I kept them to keep the group size up. While not as nice as the first group some of them are turning into quite nice fish too. The ones I moved from the first group to the second have remained the bigger than the rest of that group. Also the first group are much more even in size, they're all between 5 and 5.5", whereas the second group are more variable. Happily all are like piranhas with food and all will quite happily let you touch them, my homebreds are far tamer than any others I have :)

[Gillmann]

Well done Kevin! your babies look great!
I am in the same boat you were - with limited success in past attempts. With a move, and a new fish room (not to mention more time in retirement) I hope to break through the glass ceiling as you have. thanks for the encouragement!

[danotaylor]

Kevin I just re-skimmed through this entire thread but I couldn't find the strain type of the parents...what are they and do you have a pic of the pair you could post with this awesome thread? I saw the male in thread #1...
Cheers mate and very well done!!

[kev1310]

Thanks Gerald / Daniel,

The pair weren't any particular strain, the female looks green based. I picked them up as a cheap breeding pair about 18 months ago as I was starting my new fish room. They have aged an awful lot in the last year though, no doubt why they were cheap! I had a lot of fertility issues with them, this batch is literally the only fertile batch they've had. They hardly spawn any more now though, no doubt due to age :( The young are growing quickly though so it will only be a few months before they start thinking about it. Most of the young have better shape than the parents.

Pic of female :

128043

[Willie]

You might want to consider pairing the male with a younger female. In my experience, male discus do not lose fertility with age. However, females have progressively smaller spawns.

Have fun with raising the spawn!

[kev1310]

Sadly it's the male who is looking especially old these days, he's lost a lot of his colour. although I live in hope of another brood. I have thought about pairing another male with the female in the hope of getting some young, but I'm a bit limited. I have a good pigeon male and a good turq male but my other two males are both terrible egg eaters and eat them as they are being laid :mad: All of my other fish are still a bit young to be interested unfortunately.

[danotaylor]

It's nice that you have options Kev. Of the available options, your Turk male would be better as the PB male will produce peppered fry from your non PB female.
You're doing a great job with your fry, keep at it mate :thumbsup: