I hate my aquarium’s Alkalinity, help me love it.

[DiscusDish]

Hi there,
I have a problem that I need to fix. My KH out of tap is about 240ppm. Pretty high... And because of the stupid KH my pH sits at 7.8.
I cannot currently invest in an RO unit and am looking for other ways to do it. Even if it is temporarily.
Here are some products that I have been eyeing and their prices:

Sera Super Peat $17
Indian Almond Leaves (Cattapa) $7
Davidson’s Organic South African Roobios Tea $16

Which one is the better option? I would like to use these until I get my RO unit.

[danotaylor]

I didn't vote becaise your poll presupposes you need to do something. 7.8 is totally fine, don't mess with it. Stability is the key. Many folks here successfully keep discus in the 8+ range

[CliffsDiscus]

I totally agree with Daniel, my Discus are raise and spawn at a ph around 8.7.

Cliff

[DiscusDish]

Ok, mine just refuse to spawn. My marlboros don’t want to. I have another pair and they don’t want to either. They are Turks.

[danotaylor]

Patience grasshopper. Maybe they're just not ready. Didn't you say in another post you had wigglers with a pair before?

[DiscusDish]

Yes, indeed. With that same Turk pair, but now they show no breeding action, haven’t for 4-5 months... any tips? Danny, thank you for all your help. You are one of the most helpful people on this forum. :)

[danotaylor]

I dunno about that Matt, but I'm glad I have been able to offer you some helpful guidance.
The fact that your Turk pair had wigglers in your water is the best evidence that you don't need to change anything. If you want to try to manipulate a spawn try adjusting your temp a few degrees, or mixing up your water change %'s a little.

[Sturiosoma]

Is there anything you have changed since they spawned, I would try feeding them up good, bloodworms, live blackworms, fdbw, veggies and see if they don't spawn.

Jeanne

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Matt, patience grasshopper, these fish will reward you with time. Your ph is fine. If you want to have a little fun lightly tint the water with a little rooibos tea. Liz and I love the stuff.
Pat

[DiscusDish]

Thanks Pat. Lol, I was confused for a second when it said glasshopper and was about to go search up what that was. I will order some roobios tea along with my lighting fixture. :)

[bluelagoon]

Roobios tea does not lower PH, but does stain the water well and is a great antioxidant. If you google it , it will say that it does not lower ph, but "may" increase the ph. But I don't think it increases it much. I couldn't tell if it increasesd when I used it. By the time it takes peat moss and leaves to lower ph, you probably going to change large volumes of water before it gets time to lower it. Moss and leaves do not lower ph quickly, it take time. Your better off trying to keep things stable.

[LizStreithorst]

The tea makes my Discus' egg shell soft enough to hatch out. Their is no logical explanation that we know that makes this happen but there must be one. What it does not do, is what you're looking for, Matt, which is to put the pair in the mood. Try cleaning them up with something for flukes (I use PP), levasol for worms, and metro for hex, whether or not they show symptoms. If that doesn't work for them you have no choice but to wait.

[DiscusDish]

Should I use all of those meds at once? How do I use PP? I heard it can be dangerous..? What does Rooibos tea do? Tell me what I should buy as I am doing a shop on Amazon today and want to order some extra stuff for free shipping. Thanks

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Pat. Lol, I was confused for a second when it said glasshopper and was about to go search up what that was. I will order some roobios tea along with my lighting fixture. :)

Hi Matt, the term grasshopper is a term from the TV series, Kung Fu. and the term grasshopper is used as a "person in training" lol.
Pat

[DiscusDish]

It seems that I can't order or get PP in my area. Are there some things I could do to put them in the "mood". I've heard about temp change, how do I do that? Also, I heard WC's can help, is that so? How much water? I feed once a day right now, should I start feeding more? I give them a 1x1" cube of bloodworms in the morning. I sort of think I should because my angelfish didn't spawn until I started feeding 3 times per day. Any other tips are appreciated. Thank you :)

[DiscusDish]

Hi Matt, the term grasshopper is a term from the Movie, Karate Kid and the term grasshopper is used as a "person in training" lol.
Pat

Ohhhh... thanks for telling me. :)))

[jeep]

I had a pair in a community tank spawning every 6 days for a year. Moved them into another tank and nothing for over a month. It will happen when they're ready...

[DiscusDish]

Thanks, Brian. I will wait and see, maybe experiment a little.

[DiscusDish]

The pair in my avatar pic is the pair of Turks I am talking about. They are with eggs in a community tank there. Haven't seen any spawning behaviour from them for roughly 5-6 months. Thanks

[LizStreithorst]

Formalin works on flukes as well. I think you can do some of these all together but I always do one at a time. I start with flukes, go to worming next, and finally the metro treatment. Do as large a WC as possible when treating.

A couple of weeks after all treatments do another very large WC and using water about 4 degrees cooler. If all they need is that little push it might work for you.

What is you WC procedure now, how many fish, and what size tank. Is it planted or BB?

[DiscusDish]

I found Black Tea (Twinings of London) but it contains bergamot flavouring, a citrus fruit extract I believe. Is it aquarium safe or should I wait and order Rooibos tea? Thanks a bunch, guys :)

[DiscusDish]

Formalin works on flukes as well. I think you can do some of these all together, but I always do one at a time. I start with flukes, go to worming next, and finally the metro treatment. Do as large a WC as possible when treating.

A couple of weeks after all treatments do another very large WC and using water about 4 degrees cooler. If all they need is that little push, it might work for you.

What are your WC procedures now, how many fish, and what size tank? Is it planted or BB?

Which one?
I'll give you info on both.
27g Bare Bottom
30%-40% daily
Just a discus pair

33g BB
30-50% daily
Just a discus pair.

I will see about Formalin, but I do know that Rooibos tea has induced breeding in the past for others. I will try all of these and see what works and what doesn't. Thank you!

[LizStreithorst]

You're excellent with your WCs. I just wanted to check that first.

[Sturiosoma]

I would suggest you do as much research you can take what you read here and go to the library and get books from people that have been successful in raising them, I can tell you I have breed fish that nobody else has in the u.s and I did that through research, what waters do they come from what kind of food might they eat and so on and so forth.

Jeanne

[bluelagoon]

Should I use all of those meds at once? How do I use PP? I heard it can be dangerous..? What does Rooibos tea do? Tell me what I should buy as I am doing a shop on Amazon today and want to order some extra stuff for free shipping. Thanks

Red Bushtea/Rooibos has antioxidants, extra minerals for your fish such as calcium, magnesium, zinc just a few; all are alkaline which will increase PH. PH and KH work hand-in-hand. Very healthy brew for any many living things. Fish do seem to like it.

[danotaylor]

I have nothing at all against research but there is plenty of people here (not me, lol) that have been and continue to be successful in breeding and raising discus. I have nothing against books, but you usually cannot talk directly to the author. Here you have it all, experience and the opportunity to discuss. The only difference between some of our resident discus brainiacs and the authors of discus books is that the authors have written books. But having written a book doesn't make you an expert either. Just sayin...

[bluelagoon]

How far away from a food store/supermarket. I buy my rooibos tea at Sobey's or Superstore where I get all my food. It should be at any food store.

[DiscusDish]

Ok, thanks blue lagoon. I will call both Sobeys and Superstore and ask them if they have it. They are 5 minutes away from me so it would be great if I won't have to wait for shipping. Thanks to all of you guys. I will do as much research as possible. Any tips are greatly appreciated. I would like to start off with conditioning and work my way along. How do I condition properly? Thanks, you are always helpful. :)

[fljones3]

I had a pair in a community tank spawning every 6 days for a year. Moved them into another tank and nothing for over a month. It will happen when they're ready...

+1

[DiscusDish]

Thanks.
:)

[DiscusDish]

Okay, I called Sobeys and they said that they do have Rooibos tea but its from Tetley and they arent sure if its organic or not. Should I purchase it? Thank you?

[DiscusDish]

Actually, just called Superstore and found pure Roobios tea. Its the only ingredient. I assume this is the better option. Let me know, thanks.]

[Sturiosoma]

i have nothing at all against research but there is plenty of people here (not me, lol) that have been and continue to be successful in breeding and raising discus. I have nothing against books, but you usually cannot talk directly to the author. Here you have it all, experience and the opportunity to discuss. The only difference between some of our resident discus brainiacs and the authors of discus books is that the authors have written books. But having written a book doesn't make you an expert either. Just sayin...

wow

[DiscusDish]

wow

??? ok....

[LizStreithorst]

Look on Amazon. It's cheap there. https://www.amazon.com/Davidsons-Tea-Organic-African-16-Ounce/dp/B000SATIE6/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia?keywords=rooibos+tea&pd_rd_i=B000SATIE6&pd_rd_r=1eedf7c3-f178-412c-8300-6143a4532bce&pd_rd_w=SLJxU&pd_rd_wg=1YG7H&pf_rd_p=1cb3f32a-ccfd-479b-8a13-b22f56c942c6&pf_rd_r=8EB6SQM1QWBY6X6YCDK2&psc=1&qid=1572892356

[DiscusDish]

Its $20 for me on Amazon.ca. The one at super store is $12. I might get the super store and then order Davidsons and compare them. Thanks Liz.

[CliffsDiscus]

These Discus go off their spawning cycle, it may take awhile to get back.

Cliff

[DiscusDish]

Thanks, I will wait and experiment.

[Mando]

Mine usually go through a period where they are not interested in spawning. Then, when they get in the mood, they spawn every two weeks or so.

[DiscusDish]

Thanks for all your help. You are unspeakably helpful.

[DiscusDish]

I changed things up a bit. I bought peat from Fluval instead of tea and I got some free Java moss. They are waayyyy more active and love the tannins. I guess I made the right choice? Lol

[DiscusDish]

Super Happy r now. The Marlboro pair are beginning to get into the mood. I saw the male shiver once quickly. Then the female swam up to him a few moments later and put her fins out fully erect and sort of straightened out. Then after a few minutes I saw her peck at the cone once or twice. Yay!

[DiscusDish]

Thanks to all again. :)

[DiscusDish]

How long does it usually take after the change to spawn? A week, two weeks? Thanks

[Tuterosso]

Only cheapest way is hydrochloric acid you can prepare sooooooooo mannnyyyyyyyyy waterrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :D

[LizStreithorst]

No way to know. They spawn when they get ready.

[DiscusDish]

Ok... I’ll keep my pH for now though. For now I am wondering how much to feed them and what signs to look for. Thanks though.

[DiscusDish]

No way to know. They spawn when they get ready.

Thanks Liz. I will start feeding a lot. :)

[DiscusDish]

And btw, they keep swimming around the tank, the male always will stop and stare at a surface. Her too sometimes. They are particularly interested in the heater :( and the cone. Hopefully they choose the cone. ;)

[danotaylor]

Suction your heater horizontal or lay it on the floor of the tank Matt. If it is vertical it is a potential spawning site.

[DiscusDish]

K, thx.

[DiscusDish]

Ok, hi again. I have seen them scratching up against objects every once in a while. I think it might be worms/parasites. What is the best deworming med that I can get in Canada. I can barely ship any pure meds. Mostly just Seachem. It sucks. I would like to also deworm them for spawning so hopefully this will help. :) Thanks

[danotaylor]

Scratching is almost certainly external Matt. Perhaps critters, but perhaps water issues. I wouldn't rush to treat an internal parasite cause of itching. Are you keeping up with your water changes? Are you using aged water? Have you tested for ammonia as it is an irritant...

[DiscusDish]

Yes, water changes quite often. Every other day 35%-50%. Non-aged water. I do have a 0.2-0.4 pH swing and I’m not sure how to or where I could age it. I’m not sure what my Ammonia is, I don’t have a test for them currently. Will have to order. I will do a 50% water change with a little extra Prime to detoxify the Ammonia. Could the Ammonia be from the peat? Thanks

[fljones3]

Ok, hi again. I have seen them scratching up against objects every once in a while. I think it might be worms/parasites. What is the best deworming med that I can get in Canada. I can barely ship any pure meds. Mostly just Seachem. It sucks. I would like to also deworm them for spawning so hopefully this will help. :) Thanks

They could just have an “itch” but I have found that when they do that my nitrates are too high. An additional WC is called for.

[DiscusDish]

Ok, thanks. :) should I still clean them out before breeding? With what if so?

[danotaylor]

This is Al's quarantine process and advice. A lot of info but priceless!
Posted by brewmaster15
Hi all,
Just saw this and thought I would update. I do much of what I always have done.. though I do tailor it a bit different depending on the condition the fish come in...

For those interested..I had done several Discus Disease and Health Presentations over the years... The following are from a few pages of that presentation. HTH, al

Suggested Quarantine Procedures...
Receive fish: Place into a clean tank with aged (well aerated/pH stable warm water (85-87F). Use a well cycled bio filter.
Week One: Many Frequent water changes, observe fish behavior, and treat for anything specifically noted******. Be sure all fish are eating well and passing normal feces.
Week Two: Prophylactic deworming with Praziquantel for tape worms, several days latter deworm with general dewormer (levamisole) added to water as 24 hour bath
Week Three: Repeat Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Four: Let rest, nothing but water changes.
Week Five: Re-dose with Levamisole as 24 hour bath
Week Six: Quarantine is over if the fish are looking healthy and eating well and are not to be mixed with existing stock. If these are to be mixed with existing stock..add least favorite of existing stock (aka Test fish) to new fishes stock.
Week Six-Week Eight: Observe new stock and test fish. If all is well, most likely safe to mix all fish.
**** important note

Quarantine Common Sense:
Maintain complete separation of new stock from existing livestock.
Use separate nets, hoses, buckets, and siphons for each quarantine tank.
Separate rooms are much safer than in room quarantines.
Perform all maintenance on new stock’s quarantine tank after you are done with all existing tanks.
Wash hands and arms thoroughly after working in tanks.
Maintain optimum water quality, less stress means healthier fish
Tank should have a fully cycled bio-filter. Quarantining a group of fish is not the time to be cycling a tank!!!
Be vigilant… catching and treating a problem early on is better than latter when it may be harder or impossible to treat.

Brews Top 11 Discus Health Issues
1. Chemical Poisoning: Chlorine, Chloramine, ammonia, nitrite, heavy metals (ex. copper and iron), Medications. Suggested treatment…clean water and lots of it!
2. Dissolved gases: Low dissolved oxygen or high dissolved C02/nitrogen etc. Suggested treatment ...age and aerate water.
3. Improper Shipping and Handling Techniques: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying only from reputable ones.
4. Improper care of Discus at Vendor’s Shop: Suggested treatment…prophylactic screening of suppliers and buying from reputable ones.
5. Well meaning but inappropriate or inaccurate advice. Suggested course of action…Check references…information abounds in the internet and pet shops, both good and bad info.
Improper care of Discus on the part of the hobbyist. To keep any fish, a basic knowledge of species requirements and needs exists…Discus require a bit more than basic knowledge. Suggested treatment…Learn as much as you can!!
7. Poor Tank Hygiene Syndrome: Suggested treatment….Be less stingy with the water changes and maintenance.
8. “Charlie Brown Christmas Tree Syndrome” A fish that is sickly or poor quality when you buy it isn’t going to miraculously turn into a beautiful specimen. Suggestion..start with obviously healthy stock, not obviously sickly or low grade stock.
9. Hobbyist Mediated Pandemic: Occurs when a hobbyist recklessly acquires many specimens in a short period of time from multiple sources…mixing these together with existing stock then leads to Immune Overload..aka..sick fish. Suggested treatment….Learn patience and adhere to a sound Quarantine plan!!
10. Nutritional deficiencies…Largely unknown how this affects Discus specifically.. But what we do know is that every animal needs an adequate diet.. Suggestion…feed a varied diet to your discus of quality foods.

And finally…… Number 11!!!!


11. Gill flukes, external and internal protozoans, nematodes, bacterial infections, viruses, “plagues”etc…..

Why is this one listed last in a talk about Discus Diseases and health you may ask?…

Because! If you pay attention to the first 10 conditions mentioned you may not even need to worry about number 11! A healthy fish that has all its needs taken care of and is not stressed has an innate advantage when dealing with diseases and illness..

[DiscusDish]

Thx. Will see if I can do this.

[bluelagoon]

Yes, water changes quite often. Every other day 35%-50%. Non-aged water. I do have a 0.2-0.4 pH swing and I’m not sure how to or where I could age it. I’m not sure what my Ammonia is, I don’t have a test for them currently. Will have to order. I will do a 50% water change with a little extra Prime to detoxify the Ammonia. Could the Ammonia be from the peat? Thanks

Amonnia is one of the most toxic ingredients of the nitrogen cycle. It is most toxic when PH is above 7.0 and gets even more toxic as ph goes higher. It is not toxic under 7 ph. It starts the nitrogen cycle in your aquarium. Bacteria come along and turn it into another very toxic substance called nitrite. Then another bacteria will change nitrite to nitrate; a less harmless substance that can be gotten rid of with WC's. All fish and decaying matter produce amonnia; from gills that work with the kidneys to poop. It generally takes 4 to 6 weeks to cycle a tank that is safe for fish. This is done in the filter from the bacteria that has become established. And also on all the objects and substrate in the tank. The itching "could " be from the WC's themselves caused by micro bubbles. Do you see any pearling of air bubbles on the glass or objects after a WC? If so I would age the water. There are other ways and words to explain this but I tried to keep it in lay-mans terms.

[bluelagoon]

Sorry now that I've read, the post again you were not asking that. only that you have no test kit.. Sorry for the miss understanding.

[DiscusDish]

No problem. I am well aware of the nitrogen cycle. :) I do not have micro bubbles after water changes. Thanks

[DiscusDish]

Oh my god guys. The marlboro pair are cleaning the cone vigorously. :) :) :) :) :0

YAY!!!
Now i have to get them on a cycle lol.

[DiscusDish]

Definitely real cleaning , not pecking. They showed no breeding signs yesterday. Today is their happy day I guess. I will post a YT vid and link it here. So that you guys can confirm. :)

[DiscusDish]

When I was trying to take the video they got spooked and now they just stare at the cone. Hopefully they lay. :)

[DiscusDish]

I sat still for a bit and for the first time ever for this pair, I saw the bow of grace. (Is that what it’s called?) They stared at each other and then did it. I’m happy to say that they are cleaning slowly again. Yay. Hopefully some eggs in the next week or two. :)

Thanks for all your help guys!

[Second Hand Pat]

Yay Matt :D If you want to observe without spooking them sit on something at puts your head level of the tank bottom. Also do not hit them with a flash. Good luck with this. :D
Pat

[DiscusDish]

Thanks Pat! Will do. :)

[DiscusDish]

So I watched them for a bit. No surface cleaning. What i did see were a tiny bit of (what I think was) shimmering. I also saw the bow of grace. (Is that what it's called?) Is the bow spawning behaviour? I've never seen it from this pair before yesterday. Thanks

Matt

[DiscusDish]

They have calmed down on their mood a bit. No cleaning. An occasional bow of grace. Is the bow breeding behaviour? I know one of my older pairs did this before breeding.



Now, I need your opinions. I was thinking of buying some bottled water jugs. Would these lower my TDS? Should I do this?

Thanks

Matt :P

[DiscusDish]

Bump :)

[DiscusDish]

Bump. I need to know by tomorrow if bottled water is a good option. Thanks :)

[danotaylor]

It's an expensive option Matt. But why are you wanting to mess around with the TDS when your pair has successfully had wigglers in the same water?

[LizStreithorst]

That's what I was thinking....

[DiscusDish]

It's an expensive option Matt. But why are you wanting to mess around with the TDS when your pair has successfully had wigglers in the same water?
Every time my other pair got wigglers (in this water) they would always get fungus and the fry would never attach. Despite me adding methylene blue. :(
I want to change my TDS, or pH. To induce breeding. I might try a little bit of of bottled and see how it goes. I’m also doing a science fair experiment with these guys on what factors induce soawning and one of them is this so why not see? Thanks Liz and Danny. :)

[fljones3]

Every time my other pair got wigglers (in this water) they would always get fungus and the fry would never attach. Despite me adding methylene blue. :(
I want to change my TDS, or pH. To induce breeding. I might try a little bit of of bottled and see how it goes. I’m also doing a science fair experiment with these guys on what factors induce soawning and one of them is this so why not see? Thanks Liz and Danny. :)

Stability is most important. You might set their progress backwards. I would just have patience ... Go RO would be cheaper in the long run if necessary.

[DiscusDish]

Ok, thanks! :)

[DiscusDish]

Update: The pair is not showing any spawning activity but all the female does is stare at the cone all day. Is that normal? I am still thinking of trying bottled water. What do you think? She just literally sits there and stares at the cone. :) or :(?

Thanks

Matt

[DiscusDish]

Bump. :)

[LizStreithorst]

Matt, you keep trying to make them spawn. I keep telling you that you can't make them. They will do it when there darned good and ready. Take your eyes off them for a few days (except for WC) and I bet you'll come back to see eggs on the cone. A watched pot never boils.

[DiscusDish]

Matt, you keep trying to make them spawn. I keep telling you that you can't make them. They will do it when there darned good and ready. Take your eyes off them for a few days (except for WC) and I bet you'll come back to see eggs on the cone. A watched pot never boils.

Ok, will do. :)

[DiscusDish]

Hello, quick update. They are doing fine. The female will stare at he cone for multiple hours a day. No eggs or anything she just stairs. With an occasional nip at it. Rarely ever though. Do you know when I could expect them to lay. He female stays by the cone like 24/7 except for eating. Is this spawning behaviour? I’m not trying to rush this I just would like to know what to look for. Also, I was reading an old thread and something came up on older pairs being unable to breed.

[LizStreithorst]

It is spawning behavior. There's no way to tell when they will do the deed. I've been waiting a long while for mine to get it on as well. When is simply up to the fish.

[DiscusDish]

Thanks Liz. I heard about your tricky group. That must really suck. You mentioned that all they ever do is stare at the cone. Have any paired off? Good luck with your group. :)

[LizStreithorst]

No for sure pairs. Just staring. It will happen eventually.

[DiscusDish]

Good luck. ;)

[LizStreithorst]

Same to you.

[DiscusDish]

Thanks. :)

[DiscusDish]

Hello, so far nothing. The female just stares at the cone all day. :( Oh well, I guess I just gotta wait. I want to take out the peat and driftwood, moss and plant as well, I want my nitrates low. Is this a good idea? Thanks

[DiscusDish]

I took out the driftwood, plant, moss, and rock. Two breeding cones left.

[DiscusDish]

Everytime I look, she is just staring at the cone. Is this okay?

[DiscusDish]

Is she sick or something. She comes up to it really close and stares at it. And then she flares out her fins with the male when they make eye contact.

[Tshethar]

Hey Matt, I'm no expert but one thing I haven't heard you try doing has to do with changing your maintenance routine a little and simulating the "rainy season." You might try feeding them their favorite foods quite liberally for a couple of days and skipping their water changes. Then do one of your usual WCs, maybe on the larger side but with water in the mid-70s instead of the usual. (Go ahead and let the tank's heater slowly bring it back up to normal.) I did something like this accidentally when I had a heater fail in my aging barrel, and I think it helped. There may be more advice on this approach if you search old threads.

[DiscusDish]

Ok, thanks Tsethar. That sounds like a great idea! I will try that. :)

[DiscusDish]

I did something like what you recommended. I did an 80% WC with about 75F water. They seem way more active and happy after it. I also noticed that sometimes she will stare/make eye contact with him and then she will twitch her head. Not exactly shimmering or shivering, more like sharp wiggles. I don’t know if this is love behaviour or I’m just seeing things. I guess I’ll have to find out. :)
I’m actually doing my science fair project on these guys. I’m trying different things to induce breeding. :)