sponge or no sponge

[4eye gold fish]

My pigeon pair spawned in my 55g and wrigglers last night (11th spawn, 3rd time wrigglers). Should I remove the sponge filter?
On last two spawns (20g) the fry was attracted to the sponge and not attaching.

I also have an Eheim 2217 which I rigged three spray bars into one long bar across the back length of the tank. I enlarged the holes on the end bar, there is very subtle water movement in the tank, surface water is very calm.
The 2217 have a pre-filter, will the pre-filter keep fry from being sucked into filter?

I read some people take out the sponge and some don’t, same with lowering the water level.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Willie]

I'd recommend you remove the sponge once the fry goes free swimming. The critical period of attachment is < 24 hours. Once they attach, my experience is that you can resume sponge filtration.

Good luck, Willie

[Mando]

you can always put white or beige stockings over the sponge.

[4eye gold fish]

thanks for the advice. I will see if i can find beige or white stockings, if not I will remove sponge. Once they attached do they tend to stay attached and able to find and reattach?
How long after attachment before I resume with sponge filter?

What about lowering the water level?

[Willie]

1. Before the eggs hatch is, in my experience, a great opportunity to make big water changes and get the tank pristine. Eggs are very tough and can be exposed to air during a water change with no problems.
2. Not all pigeon blood types have problem with attachment. Unless you know that to happen, I would just shut off the aeration when the fry goes free swimming and see what happens.
3. If the fry swim away from the parents, then I'd remove the sponge and drop the water level as much as possible.
4. Once the fry start to feed from the parents, in my experience, they do not leave. At that point, you can refill the tank and add the sponge back.

Good luck, Willie

[4eye gold fish]

Hi all, thanks for all the wonderful advice. I have three tanks walls covered with white corrugated plastic sheets. I have tried lowering the water level, used foam divider to shrink tank to 1/3, taken black sponge filter out, covered my filter intake with fine white cloth. Fry just don't find the parents, they either starved to death around day four or they just disappears.

The pair is on their 16th spawn, this time I removed the fry after they hatched and going to try artificial rearing with Big Tucks contraption setup I read here (with slight modification). Wish me luck :)

[Mando]

Hi all, thanks for all the wonderful advice. I have three tanks walls covered with white corrugated plastic sheets. I have tried lowering the water level, used foam divider to shrink tank to 1/3, taken black sponge filter out, covered my filter intake with fine white cloth. Fry just don't find the parents, they either starved to death around day four or they just disappears.

The pair is on their 16th spawn, this time I removed the fry after they hatched and going to try artificial rearing with Big Tucks contraption setup I read here (with slight modification). Wish me luck :)

Have you tried blue light? Are the PB's white? Maybe the white walls is not ideal in this situation.

I would try the following, again.

1. lower water
2. put a divider to cut the tank in half like you did before (keep filter on the other half)
3. New step - Turn on blue light.

[4eye gold fish]

Have you tried blue light? Are the PB's white? Maybe the white walls is not ideal in this situation.

I would try the following, again.

1. lower water
2. put a divider to cut the tank in half like you did before (keep filter on the other half)
3. New step - Turn on blue light.

I have used blue led light and even placed a white corrugated plastic sheet to further diffuse the light. I also have tried with a low watt incandescent.
I will try all of the mentioned advice again with next spawn.

female is a Red Eagle, male is an Orange/Red pigeon they both have lots of white markings. Should I change white walls to something blue?

thanks,

[coralbandit]

I am trying the blue light now with my pair and their fry . 7th or 8th spawn ...

I refined how I raise my rams using Big Tucks methods !
I wish you luck .

[4eye gold fish]

I am trying the blue light now with my pair and their fry . 7th or 8th spawn ...

I refined how I raise my rams using Big Tucks methods !
I wish you luck .

Thanks Coralbandit,
The fry are fully free swimming, very small batch @20. I have started feeding them egg yoke powder mix with raw egg yoke. Not sure if I got the mix right but will see tonight when I get home. Also have bbs hatching for tomorrow's feeding. btw the two love birds(fish) spawn last night again before I got around to putting and trying to breed them in a 20g.

[coralbandit]

Thanks Coralbandit,
The fry are fully free swimming, very small batch @20. I have started feeding them egg yoke powder mix with raw egg yoke. Not sure if I got the mix right but will see tonight when I get home. Also have bbs hatching for tomorrow's feeding. btw the two love birds(fish) spawn last night again before I got around to putting and trying to breed them in a 20g.

That rocks !
Ironically my fry never attached so I stole them [what bandits do ]and have added them in with my youngest rams [just free swimming themselves ].
I know nothing but I swear they are eating ?? I added them yesterday ..How long can last if they are not eating ??
I figured the rams were right there with them chronologically and have a learned a thing or two about 'tough/finicky' fish ..
Without much effort at all I am using the scientifically proven 'Monkey see monkey do 'philosophy !
The rams keep them going as I know they are all good and should by all rights the disc should be able to eat what I feed the same ..
I am feeding BBS [day one] Golden pearls 100 micron and freeze dried copepods .
I swear I saw them go to surface when I added the copepods !
Keep me up on how this goes for you I am learning on the fly myself ..
The blue light didn't work for me but I have not even painted my tank white so I can't complain ..
Me and the round fish are going to work this out and learn to work together as time passes I hope .

[LizStreithorst]

very interesting, Tom.

[danotaylor]

If I remember correctly sanjay21 started a great thread in artificially raising discus fry, and had great success with the method that emerged from his thread. I will do a search and try to paste the link back here...

[danotaylor]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?131167-Artificial-Raising-fry-project-(my-first-time)&highlight=Artificially+raising+fry

[4eye gold fish]

Thank you Daniel for the link. My attempt at artificial raising is a failure, all the fry died when I got home from work tonight. Don't think I got the egg yolk mixture consistency right. The new spawn of eggs were eaten tonight as well, it seem the pair tends to eat them right around hatch day...sigh. This is very discouraging, think I will give this breeding aspect of the hobby a rest for now and just enjoy their majestic and serene beauty.

[4eye gold fish]

I gave artificial rearing another try (22nd spawn), I pulled the fry after free swimming into a 3 gal tank with heater and sponge filter. I fed fry golden pearl 5-50 micron and egg yoke power along with BBS. The golden pearl and egg yoke powder tend to foul the water quickly. Not sure if they ate any of the food. On day 2 they all mostly stay on the bottom with a few swimming about. Around day 3-4 they start dying off. I did a 30% water change with same temp once per day when I get home from work.

Is the 5-50 micron GP too tiny for the fry? I have 100-200 micron ordered. Thinking of giving vinegar eels a try at least they won't foul the water. What am I doing wrong? Any comments/suggestions is greatly appreciated. I very much like to see how the off springs of the pair will look.

[seanyuki]

Perhaps feeding them
Decapsulated brine shrimp eggs...... https://www.brineshrimpdirect.com/brine-shrimp-eggs/decapsulated-non-hatching-brine-shrimp-eggs/

HTH

[Sturiosoma]

All cichlids being egg layers have the ability to know if their eggs are viable and if they're not they will destroy them, if they allow the eggs to hatch they may also destroy the fry if they believe they are not viable, it's natures way of ensuring that only the strong survive, so rather try and artficially raise them I would consider several things, are the breeders stressed, what kind of tank setup do you have going, and it could also be conditioning, what do you feed, and also golden pearls and egg yolk are not good choices for fry food

Jeanne

[seanyuki]

All cichlids being egg layers have the ability to know if their eggs are viable and if they're not they will destroy them, if they allow the eggs to hatch they may also destroy the fry if they believe they are not viable, it's natures way of ensuring that only the strong survive, so rather try and artficially raise them I would consider several things, are the breeders stressed, what kind of tank setup do you have going, and it could also be conditioning, what do you feed, and also golden pearls and egg yolk are not good choices for fry food

Jeanne

It's not actual egg yolk but baker egg yoke......Artificial raising Discus can be done with a bowl with added egg yoke paste.
The type of egg yoke best use when first starting would be the baker egg yoke. Paste a small amount of yoke on the side of the bowl and raise the
water level up to the yoke level. Change the water every hour on your first
try, on the 3rd day try feeding BBS, if only a small percentage takes the
BBS keep feeding the yoke for 5 days. At the end of the 5th day you can
feed the BBS .Cliff Young speaks on the subject of artificially raising fry.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?44872-Artificial-raising-of-young-Discus&highlight=yoke+powder

[Sturiosoma]

It's not actual egg yolk but baker egg yoke......Artificial raising Discus can be done with a bowl with added egg yoke paste.
The type of egg yoke best use when first starting would be the baker egg yoke. Paste a small amount of yoke on the side of the bowl and raise the
water level up to the yoke level. Change the water every hour on your first
try, on the 3rd day try feeding BBS, if only a small percentage takes the
BBS keep feeding the yoke for 5 days. At the end of the 5th day you can
feed the BBS .Cliff Young speaks on the subject of artificially raising fry.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?44872-Artificial-raising-of-young-Discus&highlight=yoke+powder

Ok I'm not familiar with Cliff and did he ever post pics of what he artificially raised

Jeanne

[seanyuki]

Ok I'm not familiar with Cliff and did he ever post pics of what he artificially raised

Jeanne

The link already provided photos....... Cliff Young/CliffsDiscus and he is highly regarded in this forum.

[Sturiosoma]

The link already provided photos....... Cliff Young/CliffsDiscus and he is highly regarded in this forum.

I only see photos of a bowl of fry what became of them and where are the pics

Jeanne

[Willie]

I've seen Cliff's setup in San Francisco where he raised fry artificially. He knows what he's talking about.

Willie

[danotaylor]

I cut this off that old thread. Cliff is not only experienced and knowledgeable having run his own hatchery, but charitable as well offering his knowledge free of charge!! Way to go Cliff!!

"I have also given lectures monthly for 5 years at the California Academy of Science under the
direction of San Francisco Aquarium Society, on all topics concerning raising
and breeding Discus. Annually Discus hatchery visits trip to local breeders were organized, yearly open house to my hatchery were available for
members where they can physically see how the artifically tech is done.
Once a year members interested in raising artifically can sign up for a one
to one lab training and even a annual Christmast dinner. All of this for a $15 membership that went to the San Franciscos Aquarium Society, I received
nothing as a volunteer."

[4eye gold fish]

I have not tried the bowl method. I just don't have the time to feed and change water every hour or so, wish I do. I have tried Big Tuck's coffee filter method but failed at it.
As long as the pair spawns which is like every other week or so, I will keep at it and hopefully fish and I get it right.

I will try the bowl method next, have a new spawn last night (24th). Do I need to feed and change water every hour? What would be the minimal feeding? I might have to plan this out as my vacation project. Should I pull the eggs on cone or wait until free swimming?

Thanks Seanyuki for the link, I will read up. Thanks all.

[4eye gold fish]

I cut this off that old thread. Cliff is not only experienced and knowledgeable having run his own hatchery, but charitable as well offering his knowledge free of charge!! Way to go Cliff!!

"I have also given lectures monthly for 5 years at the California Academy of Science under the
direction of San Francisco Aquarium Society, on all topics concerning raising
and breeding Discus. Annually Discus hatchery visits trip to local breeders were organized, yearly open house to my hatchery were available for
members where they can physically see how the artifically tech is done.
Once a year members interested in raising artifically can sign up for a one
to one lab training and even a annual Christmast dinner. All of this for a $15 membership that went to the San Franciscos Aquarium Society, I received
nothing as a volunteer."

Very nice, is Cliff still lecturing? Where do I sign up for membership? I am in San Francisco !!!!! :)

[danotaylor]

Not sure mate, that thread is well over 10 years old. Cliff is still active in the site so maybe shoot him a PM and ask...
CliffsDiscus is his site name