Discus continues to deteriorate

[Mando]

This problem has been on going and I'm about to lose this fish. Brian was helping me via PM but nothing is working so i'm doing this thread to get more of your inputs.

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
Nothing unusual just getting very skinny. I'm starting to notice that he misses some of his food and gives up and goes for the next one, misses, and goes to the next, etc. eventually he will get a good bite in. This has been happening for a long time.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

deteriorating. still eats just misses a lot; this missing started recently. Good color feces, not hiding, very social and flirtatious with his partner. He is my confirmed pair male.

3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
I ran Al's de-worming Q/T process a few weeks ago. I ran Prazi first and then 3 treatments of levamisole 7 days apart.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

90g 11 adult discus 6"+


5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
50% every other day

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

BB tank, running for 2years+

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
24-48hr aging. No ph swing and pretty consistent. Nov 11: 6.93 @ 9am, 7.01 @ 2pm and 7.04 @ 8pm

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
Prime is added to the tank. I usually dose double the amount since I have ammonia in my tap

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp ___86__

- ph __7.04___

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading _0___

- nitrate reading __<10__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water _100%___

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
none

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

9am: beef heart (Frozen blood worms before)
12pm: tetra granules
3pm: tetra granules
6pm : tetra granules
9pm: 2x Al's FDBW

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

[Mando]

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[danotaylor]

Weird mate, sorry to hear. Do you think maybe it's physiological, like perhaps it's blind in 1 eye or something?? Could be the picture angle but the lense in the right eye looks opaque...

[Mando]

I'm not sure, Dan. I know that he is roughly 5 years old. Not sure what to do here. I was thinking of putting him with my growout since he has a better chance of eating there.

I also don't know why the photo's are upside down.

He is the only one in the tank that is skinny. Everyone else is nice and fat.

[danotaylor]

This is what im seeing...is the picture angle or is the right eye lense opaque?
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[Mando]

It's angled. I caught him while he was turning. He was in front of the outtake tube and I could not get a good pic. I was also running late for work. His eyes are crystal clear.

Also, his belly looks like it's sunken in. Like if I pinched it with my fingers. I tried to capture it in the photo but it was hard.

[Mando]

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This was him over a year ago.

[DiscusDish]

That’s extremely weird. He looks super healthy from the one year ago photo. Have you tried maybe feeding live food to spark his appetite? I had a discus who was lazy and wouldn’t go after food, but when I fed some live food he went crazy. Ever since has been eating fine. Maybe that’s my luck?

[Mando]

That’s extremely weird. He looks super healthy from the one year ago photo. Have you tried maybe feeding live food to spark his appetite? I had a discus who was lazy and wouldn’t go after food, but when I fed some live food he went crazy. Ever since has been eating fine. Maybe that’s my luck?

I've been sporadically feeding live black worms and that's how I noticed he misses his food. He also does not eat from the floor. He's a picky eater. Brian has been helping me for the last few months but this morning I saw him a bit skinnier so I figured I will eventually lose this fish.

My only solution right now is to put him with my growout.

[jeep]

Sorry he's not improving. Have you tried Prazi?

Without a microscope view of the feces it's hard to know exactly whats going on.

Hopefully someone else can see if we missed anything...

[Mando]

Sorry he's not improving. Have you tried Prazi?

Without a microscope view of the feces it's hard to know exactly whats going on.

Hopefully someone else can see if we missed anything...

Yes, did Prazi as the first does. I did not mean to put PP above. I have a microscope, I will do this tonight.

[jeep]

It may not be a bad idea to put it in the community tank as well. If it's somehow a behavioral issue, maybe the others can spark some interest...

[danotaylor]

Wowsers, the then and now shots don't even look like the same fish. Mando I'm sorry mate, but I have no clue how to direct you. I certainly do hope that he can be restored to his former glory somehow. All the best to you sir!

[Mando]

It may not be a bad idea to put it in the community tank as well. If it's somehow a behavioral issue, maybe the others can spark some interest...

He is in the community tank. I'm thinking of putting him with my growout. Any thoughts? I think it's a personality temperament issue now.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Armando, I do not have specific suggestions except perhaps this fish is just getting old. Also Danny may be onto something with the sight issues. I would suggest not adding this fish in with any fry in case it is carrying something which may be harmful to the fry.
Pat

[Mando]

Hi Armando, I do not have specific suggestions except perhaps this fish is just getting old. Also Danny may be onto something with the sight issues. I would suggest not adding this fish in with any fry in case it is carrying something which may be harmful to the fry.
Pat

I will take a pic of the eyes, they are clear. Just a bad angle. I was thinking the old age being "THE" factor. I can call Gabe @ JW to see exactly how old this fish is. I purchased him 3 years ago and he was already 2+yrs old. I remember him clearly saying that the female was just over 1 yr old but that he was an older guy already.

[Sturiosoma]

Armado in looking through your report I believe your fish are malnourished, a lot of people here are sticklers in different areas, I am a stickler when it comes to food, about 10yr. When I was more active in breeding of fish for what ever reason I read the ingredients label on some of my fish food and I thought what fish is going to access to this stuff, well that led me to do extensive research on fish food, and if I come across a bit harsh, brash whatever, but here's what I would do, get rid of the raw beefheart I will not use this in my tanks because of the issues with beef I can't help but think that if it's harming humans will it not harm your fish I instead use freeze dried beefheart, I also will not feed frozen food, and i would also get rid of the tetra the quality is just not there my regimen is to feed all tanks in the morning with nls optimum flakes ,live blackworms once a week and then a freeze dried meat different everyday, bloodworms, fdbw, and so on, I also feed omega one veggie flakes twice a week and Nori seaweed once a week, if you vary their diet I believe your fish will improve, and with all this I guess it's more than my 2cents, but anything is worth a try.

Jeanne

[bluelagoon]

Seemed like worms and the treatment was done. I agree with Pat, it coud be a sign of aging. There seems to be a bit of eye/brain damage "maybe". Did you ever hear of a disease called wasting disease/mutant protein called prion. Fish can be affected by this.

[Mando]

Armado in looking through your report I believe your fish are malnourished, a lot of people here are sticklers in different areas, I am a stickler when it comes to food, about 10yr. When I was more active in breeding of fish for what ever reason I read the ingredients label on some of my fish food and I thought what fish is going to access to this stuff, well that led me to do extensive research on fish food, and if I come across a bit harsh, brash whatever, but here's what I would do, get rid of the raw beefheart I will not use this in my tanks because of the issues with beef I can't help but think that if it's harming humans will it not harm your fish I instead use freeze dried beefheart, I also will not feed frozen food, and i would also get rid of the tetra the quality is just not there my regimen is to feed all tanks in the morning with nls optimum flakes ,live blackworms once a week and then a freeze dried meat different everyday, bloodworms, fdbw, and so on, I also feed omega one veggie flakes twice a week and Nori seaweed once a week, if you vary their diet I believe your fish will improve, and with all this I guess it's more than my 2cents, but anything is worth a try.

Jeanne

I also feed freeze dried black worms @ 2 cubes a day. I think I do offer a varied diet. I just started offering the beef heart about four weeks ago which replaced the blood worms. It's just one fish that is skinny, the others are perfect. I feed the same things to my growout and they are doing wonderfully and growing well. The beef heart has a ton of ingredients in it and its Brian's special recipe. The tetra color bits have worked in this industry for years and at one point it was the goto food. I can always offer discus d50 granules as I have a huge tub at home. I've been feeding live black worms about twice a week for 2 months as a treat. This problem has been on going for about 6 months if not longer. It's just him, not my other fish. At first he was eating just losing weight so I figured worms, but I did full treatment and never seen any worms being expelled. I truly believe it's old age. but I'm open to suggestions. I can feed more live black worms or move him to grow out tank that eats about 8-10 times a day.

This feeding routine is different on weekends. When i'm home, they get more granules and more FDBW.

My blue diamonds are so fat they look like damn bull dogs. They are very thick.

Thank you for your suggestions on the foods though. I will look into them.

[Mando]

Seemed like worms and the treatment was done. I agree with Pat, it coud be a sign of aging. There seems to be a bit of eye/brain damage "maybe". Did you ever hear of a disease called wasting disease/mutant protein called prion. Fish can be affected by this.

Never heard of it in fish. Is there a way to combat this?

[fljones3]

Since we are all guessing. I would go with the aging that Pat suggested. On another thought, for adult discus I only feed 2-3x a day. Usually, Wild grans in the morning. They are always waiting for Al's cubes at noon. 1 cube per 2-3 adult discus. Then the late afternoon I might throw one cube in my tanks or a very light feeding of grans. Perhaps if there were less feedings, the this particular fish might perk up. BTW, this is not to say you are doing something wrongly.

Just another wild suggestion.

[bluelagoon]

Never heard of it in fish. Is there a way to combat this?

I have had this wasting in one discus; it was about a 5 year old wild. Thought it was worms and treated for such. And many times this is the most likely for weight loss in fish. But nothing seemed to bring back it's weight, even tho it was eating like the rest of the discus. They is no cure. I'm not sure what went wrong but they are so many things that can go wrong with a fish or any living thing. They have endocrine systems like us and the disease sometimes is not what we think it is. We age and sometimes things go down hill too. Thyroid problems can also lead to blindness too as does weight loss. I think out side the box.

[Mando]

I have had this wasting in one discus; it was about a 5 year old wild. Thought it was worms and treated for such. And many times this is the most likely for weight loss in fish. But nothing seemed to bring back it's weight, even tho it was eating like the rest of the discus. They is no cure. I'm not sure what went wrong but they are so many things that can go wrong with a fish or any living thing. They have endocrine systems like us and the disease sometimes is not what we think it is. We age and sometimes things go down hill too. Thyroid problems can also lead to blindness too as does weight loss. I think out side the box.

Sounds like the issue my fish is going through. He eats but no gains in weight. Now, at its worst, he misses the food as if he has trouble finding it.


Since we are all guessing. I would go with the aging that Pat suggested. On another thought, for adult discus I only feed 2-3x a day. Usually, Wild grans in the morning. They are always waiting for Al's cubes at noon. 1 cube per 2-3 adult discus. Then the late afternoon I might throw one cube in my tanks or a very light feeding of grans. Perhaps if there were less feedings, the this particular fish might perk up. BTW, this is not to say you are doing something wrongly.

Just another wild suggestion.

Originally, this tank was only getting foods in the mornings and in the afternoons. Because of this one guy, I started feeding everyone more often and I added the auto feeder. But, nothing is working. I always fed and ran off to work, never sat there to watch them eat. I started to monitor him to make sure he ate and I can confirm that he did eat, but no gains. And they are always begging for more including him. I go to the opposite end, and they rush to me. I run the other way, and they rush to me. I can be laying in bed and raise my hand and they all come to the corner thinking they are going to get fed.

If we are ruling this down to just wasting away to old age, do you see any harm in adding him to my growout? He has a better chance of eating there.

[fljones3]

If we are ruling this down to just wasting away to old age, do you see any harm in adding him to my growout? He has a better chance of eating there.

Personally, I would not take the chance. Your growouts are beautiful.
If it is old age, then at some point you will have to make a decision.

[danotaylor]

+1 with Frank on that mate. Because it is still not absolutely certain I would not take the risk if it was me.

[Mando]

Personally, I would not take the chance. Your growouts are beautiful.
If it is old age, then at some point you will have to make a decision.

Thank you, Frank. Ok. I agree. Poor guy, I’ve grown so attached to him. Here you can see the right eye and it’s super clear.

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[snxtif]

If you can clear internal/parasite, behavioral/bullying then it might be old age.
I just lost one few month ago with exactly the same progression.

[Mando]

If you can clear internal/parasite, behavioral/bullying then it might be old age.
I just lost one few month ago with exactly the same progression.

Both are definitely cleared. My poor old guy :(. He actually bullies the others when he is around his partner. I'm waiting to collect feces but I have yet to see him defecate in front of me.

[snxtif]

Both are definitely cleared. My poor old guy :(. He actually bullies the others when he is around his partner. I'm waiting to collect feces but I have yet to see him defecate in front of me.

I can feel the love when someone is eagerly waiting the other to sh!t on their face..., that's dedication.
You did well. It happens. Hope you embrace the memory and journey.

My condolence...

[Mando]

I’m not sure if this is a sign of relief or not, knowing that my discus has a fighting chance. Are these worms? If so, I’m not sure how they lived through the deworming cycle. Should I run the same deworming cycle including dose or extended by one more treatment for a total of 5 and/or increase dose?

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[danotaylor]

They look like tape worms to me Mando but I am no expert. Did you use pure prazi or prazipro? The later is not as potent...

[Second Hand Pat]

They look like tapes to me also. Would suggest using pure prazi also Armando.
Pat

[jeep]

I agree!!

[coralbandit]

Since you used prazi already I'll just say I read it is safe to overdose like in the hundreds of times dose !
Not sure a stronger dose would help ..If that is new it may be a prolapse coming on/out ? Not saying they are not tape worms just staying open minded still.
Wasting disease was mentioned and think too little is known or done about it myself .Lots of fish lost to it IMO .
Fenbedazole when fish is eating ,flubendazole when fish is not ..
I would do the flube and maybe prazi ??
This from Charles Harrison [inkmaker]
Fenbendazole. I do have Fenbendazole 10%. It works for a number of things but it is not absorbed through their skin or gills.
It must be eaten to be effective. Pricing is the same as Flubendazole below.
Flubendazole 10 % powder
Postage is to increase in 2020 soon.
Best for eliminating Hydra. Treats protozoa wasting disease, serious treatment for Velvet, enternal and external parasites, 1/4 teaspoon of 10 % powder
treats about 20 gallons of water for most parasitic Protozoa. Eliminate Carbon filtration during treatment. Change most of the water after 10 days.
Will not harm plants, Prolonged use will kill most all snails. ........
Taken from his page ;
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html
Good luck and I would not move fish with others not exposed .You can move him to a tank alone but I don't think that is best unless the fish is bullied ..

[Mando]

This is the Prazi I used. https://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Meds-Prazi-50-grams/dp/B00T8NY69Q/ref=sr_1_8?keywords=prazi&qid=1575304127&sr=8-8

I would not mind using fenbendazole or flubendazole but it would have to be for this fish alone in a separate tank. The side effects of those meds are scary. I'm surprised that Prazi did not kill the worms the first time. I will dose Prazi again. Should I follow with Levamisole? I can try to get a sample of the worms if I see them again. unfortunately, I had to run out that afternoon when I took the pic.

This fish in particular is not bullied. Despite how skinny he is, he is still dominant. So I know he has fight in him still but I need to move fast as he is even skinnier than ever.

[jeep]

I'm not familiar with that brand of Prazi but they state 100% pure. How did you administer it? All pure prazi I've used needs to be dissolved in vodka before adding to the tank and I don't see instructions in the description. The photo looks like tapes so I would run another course or 2 of Prazi before using the other meds.

[Mando]

I'm not familiar with that brand of Prazi but they state 100% pure. How did you administer it? All pure prazi I've used needs to be dissolved in vodka before adding to the tank and I don't see instructions in the description. The photo looks like tapes so I would run another course or 2 of Prazi before using the other meds.

I dissolved in in Vodka as well. I will do another 2 doses. How much time in between each dose?

[jeep]

I would redose in about 2 weeks to hopefully catch the tapeworm cycle. Prazi doesn't kill eggs...

[Mando]

I would redose in about 2 weeks to hopefully catch the tapeworm cycle. Prazi doesn't kill eggs...

Perfect! will keep you guys updated.

[Mando]

I did not see any worms being expelled. I dosed 1g/109g of water. Was that enough?

Today will make 48 hours and then I will do a 80% water change.

[Mando]

I did not see any worms being expelled. I dosed 1g/109g of water. Was that enough?

Today will make 48 hours and then I will do a 80% water change.

any thoughts? if not worms, what in the world was it?

[bluelagoon]

They look white like tapeworms in the pic. Or are they reddish and roundworms,; if so prazi would not work on Capillaria (round worm). Levamisole will kill all types.

[Mando]

They were white.

I will do the full deworming cycle again. Includes levamisole. Seems like Prazi did not do anything. At least, I did not see any being expelled.

how safe is it to use a higher does of prazi?

[coralbandit]

I'll start by saying I thought I once read it could be dosed up to 500 times the recommended level !
Can't find that source but want to agree rarely have I noted a good change after the recommended dose of Prazi .
So for my fish [they're mine] I have tripled and quadrupled doses over a week .I don't want to drown or flood them but I think they deserve a strong dose .
Only my discus have got anything in the last 2-3 years knock wood ..
Now I know nothing so ;

There are no known side effects of Praziquatel, but there have been studies to show it can become toxic in high volumes, which are somewhere around 40x to 50x greater than recommended dosing.
Taken from ;
https://www.aquarium-medications.com/2013/06/praziquantel-as-aquarium-fish-treatment.html
Take it for what it worth ..
Know anything about Potassium Permanganate ?

[Mando]

Know anything about Potassium Permanganate ?

Unfortunately, I don't but I can research it. I also have not had anything wrong with my fish for 2 years until I noticed this one deteriorating.

[coralbandit]

I made a thread about it on the kids forum .Lots of responses from people who have learned how to use it .Mostly discus and ram keepers and breeders .
I hope my links transfer ;

#1




There is lots of info on using potassium permanganate out there and I encourage all interested in trying this product to do as much research as possible.
I usually refer to 4 different links to describe what it is , how ,why and what I use it for .
The link for mixing is no longer available was originally found on BIDKA[ British International Discus Keeper Association ] if you all want to look for it ?
So first link is definition of PP
Next is a link from Skeptical Aquarist https://web.archive.org/web/20160313202506/http://skepticalaquarist.com/potassium-permanganate
And this link is from the SA link https://web.archive.org/web/20160315215925/http://www.jackmcneary.com/html/potassium_permanganate_.htm
So it is simple and if you choose there may be other methods to make the solution you will use.One link I listed has a mix but if possible stick with mine .
You can math this out how you want but to get your stock solution you mix 75 grams of the powder with 1,000 ml water. If you have purified water [RO] use it . As I said you can math down however you want 1,000 ml is more then a pond keeper will need. So 7.5 grams to 100ml is fine also .
Once you have that mix ratio made you need 2 drops of the solution per gallon of aquarium to acheive the 2ppm treatment level. 1 drop per gallon equals 1ppm .EASY MATH .
It is important you read all the links .
All the info for safe and practical treatment is provided.
THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE ! It is not a short cut and there are real risk using this product.
Each link has warnings in them that should be heeded.
I am more then happy to answer questions for anyone who wants ,but lets try to make them ones that are not answered in the links ! YOU GOT TO READ THEM ALL IF YOU WANT TO PLAY !
This stuff is to serious to not read all the info.
So if you make it past that scare tactics I use and the ones that start a couple of the links and read all and learn about this product things that most struggle with disease wise will be made much easier for you. This is not so much for those with one small tank as much as multiple tanks or fish rooms ..
The applications for this product are so diverse that I use it when my tanks are healthy not just to cure issues ! Unlike many other 'medicines' this product will not treat one single thing .
It kills what you dose it strong enough to . A pathogen/parasite ,snail ,your fish . It kills .The beauty is you can measure proper application amount and with careful experiments/experience you can learn to confidently use it just like dechlorinator .

[Mando]

Thank you! I’ve been reading! Got a little more to read today.

I went by Jack Wattley today to pick up some meds and he told me that it’s capillaria. He also told me that 1g in a 109 is nothing. He looked into his book for meds and when we did the math, the book said to dose prazi @ 2.96g for 109g tank.

[coralbandit]

I like hearing my common sense 3-4X dose seems to fit !
Still crazy I know but you have to interpret or judge what you intake ..My trusted list is short but sweet ..
Lucky you near JW..He is missed I am glad the family and all carry on his history ..We all owe him something ,you know like a smile and thanks Jack !
What book ??

[Second Hand Pat]

Thank you! I’ve been reading! Got a little more to read today.

I went by Jack Wattley today to pick up some meds and he told me that it’s capillaria. He also told me that 1g in a 109 is nothing. He looked into his book for meds and when we did the math, the book said to dose prazi @ 2.96g for 109g tank.

Hi Armando, so Gabe recommended prazi for capillaria worms? Capillaria worms are small red worms and are not tape worms which is what prazi is used for. Best to use levamisole for capillaria.
Pat

[jeep]

I agree with Pat. The only treatment for capillaria I know of is levamisole or fenbendazole. People also tend to rave about Ksuri, although I've never had any experience with it.

Have you had a chance to examine the feces under a microscope or is it not eating? I would examine any feces because if one is affected, they all may but just not showing signs.

https://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Worms-in-tropical-fish.aspx?pageid=367

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/capillaria

[Mando]

With as much as I am on this forum, I’m shocked I missed your response Patty. He might have miss named the worm. However, he also wanted me to do a levamisole dip on the fish. He said the fish will want to jump out of the bucket but it’s effective. I’m just scared I’ll fail.

[Mando]

I agree with Pat. The only treatment for capillaria I know of is levamisole or fenbendazole. Fenben can be adminstered in food and Panacure can be administered in water. People also tend to rave about Ksuri, although I've never had any experience with it.

Have you had a chance to examine the feces under a microscope or is it not eating? I would examine any feces because if one is affected, they all may but just not showing signs.

https://www.vetark.co.uk/pages/Worms-in-tropical-fish.aspx?pageid=367

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/biochemistry-genetics-and-molecular-biology/capillaria

He had solid orange feces today because of the pellets. I have not had the time to collect a sample. Or rather, I’ve had the time, however, when I do, he doesn’t release any. We are on a “tag, your it” basis.

[Mando]

His tail is starting to look pretty bad. Not sure what’s going on with this fish. Might cut my losses and put him down. I don’t want him to suffer anymore.

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[Second Hand Pat]

Sorry to hear this Armando but sometimes this is the best option. :(
Pat