Dark Rams

[Discluv]

Here is a video of my dark rams from coralbandit. They are doing really well, but no signs of breeding activity as of yet. I think they are still juveniles.
Sorry for all the bubbles and scratches on tank that lower visibility. Its an old tank--


https://vimeo.com/377404628

[danotaylor]

Very nice. Those guys are dark! They look big enough to breed. Are they def male & female? How long have you had them? Tank looks mint!

[Discluv]

Thank you!
I assumed they were a pair, but I might have assumed wrong when I bought them from coralbandit. Maybe he will chime in and tell me what he thinks as far as sex. They have very different builds when see in person, so I would bet are male/female.

I received these on 10/8, couple months ago. They are very strong and healthy-- surprisingly hearty compared to other rams Ive had in the past.

From ad when purchased they were described as Dark Rams ( F3). Offspring ( 3rd generation) from stock originating from breeders in Israel.

[coralbandit]

They look good !
These guys are tougher to sex then most rams .
I don't even see any behavior to help out ??
First in video looks female to me by guess.
I am sure when I sent them I was convinced they were male and female .
I just feel rams do better in pairs and unless asked different do my best to send out pairs .
They are offspring from my own rams that were raised in my fish room .Their grandparents were black rams from Danzinger discus farm in Israel ..
I really would have thought they would have breed by now ?

[Discluv]

No signs of breeding at all.
I guess I need to get a male to ensure breeding.

[coralbandit]

I can get you a male what ever color .
A gold from the blacks would be like 2 birds with one stone …
You should end up with 50% that look dark although I think from them only like 25% would have the DD..
Still learning but love helping ..
Hope I am ?

[Discluv]

I would like to get a golden male from the blacks=-- thanks Tom. Sounds like that would be the best way to go about getting some fry.

How much?? -- and Ill go to Paypal and pay invoice, which will also have my shipping address etc...


Or would it be better to get another dark male? I dont know- whichever will get me the most dark offspring is what I want.

[coralbandit]

I need email for PP.
You can private message me here maybe or tag me at coralbandit@aol.com
Tis the season and for the kids site I am doing my second Christmas giveaway ..
I dig hooking people up . I can because of people like you that support me through out the year. I've run business and even when good they can be no fun.. That breaks the first rule of fish keeping in my book ..Have fun . God Bless you Al.
This is my hobby, no my passion and anyone passionate knows they want to share the joy , pleasure and sense of achievement .. I said once ; we all like to be stroked ..It's a pride thing craftsman have . I am bold enough to say I got the rams , but only because so many have said it to me ..
The fish are on me [maybe even shipping ] but I do ask a quit pro quo !~
We'll talk soon I hope !

[jeep]

Those are pretty cool!

[Discluv]

email sent

[Discluv]

Thanks @Jeep :)
They are a beautiful fish.

[Discluv]

Tom sent me 3 more Dark rams and a golden.
The golden is just as beautiful in its own right.

I think I see a dark pair forming in this group by end of video. Tom says he thinks that the pair he sent me spawned the day before he sent them to me.

https://vimeo.com/378674347

[coralbandit]

They look good !
Glad they made it safe ..
I hope to see video of fry soon !

[Mando]

That was the quickest transaction in the world! I love when suppliers are speedy and waste no time!

One day I'll buy some from you, Tom :). I just need to keep self-motivating through Pat's, LIz', and Discluv's posts.

[coralbandit]

That was the quickest transaction in the world! I love when suppliers are speedy and waste no time!

One day I'll buy some from you, Tom :). I just need to keep self-motivating through Pat's, LIz', and Discluv's posts.
That is too kind . Discluv made it happen ! I know so many frown upon my shipping carrier ,but I don't like to waste peoples fish money ..
These are by no means easy fish to keep or breed ..I count myself eccentric and lucky as far as these dark go ..

[Discluv]

Tom is a top-notch vendor. I have a handful I put in that category in my many years of buying live-stock for the hobby. He is one of them.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Tom sent me 3 more Dark rams and a golden.
The golden is just as beautiful in its own right.

I remember years ago (20?) when I was keeping Golden Rams... it was hard to find good full bodied ones... they were always a bit longer and skinny... The shape has a come a long way as breeders have crossed back into wild stock to improve them. I kept some Goldens last year and they were spectacular (had to donate them prior to returning to Mexico last winter).

The genetics of the Black/Goldens are fascinating.... Kudos to you folks unraveling it! Thanks for sharing the video.

[Discluv]

This is day 5 of spawn by Dark female Ram and Golden male. The fry are definitely getting stronger, but not quite to free-swimming stage I would guess. The sound you hear in background is trickle of water from HOB into tank.

https://vimeo.com/385079939

[coralbandit]

They are free swimming and looking for food .
They are likely find some amongst the plants and such .
Looking good !

[Discluv]

They are free swimming and looking for food .
They are likely find some amongst the plants and such .
Looking good !

Thanks! I have been feeding them both the egg yolk and NEW Life Spectrum Fry Starter food. The brine shrimp will be here today.

[LizStreithorst]

I bet they'll take off once they get their tummies full of BBS. Congratulations! You got it done first. Best of luck with the group.

[gunnerschh2]

I got 12 eb rams from Tom a couple yrs. ago & they were great. I just got 6 super red plecos from him & they are great & red. Tom really knows his fish.

[LizStreithorst]

A lot of us here are fans of Tom. His willingness to share his knowledge is what makes him special. That and his great taste in fish.

[Discluv]

I bet they'll take off once they get their tummies full of BBS. Congratulations! You got it done first. Best of luck with the group.

I haven't got anything done yet. But, thank you. I still need to get them through the free-swimming stage. The BDBS wont be ready until tomorrow. But, they appear to be actively going after the food am giving them.

I think with feeding this egg yolk i will do another water change this evening to make sure tank doesn't get too polluted.

[Discluv]

Day 6
Fry feeding off top of waterline.
Hope to have baby brine shrimp this evening to feed.

https://vimeo.com/385177512

[LizStreithorst]

Cool. I hope that I'll get to see something similar one day.

[Discluv]

You will, your a much more accomplished breeder than me. This is the first time Ive raised any fry of any type. Haven't you raised discus fry several times?

[LizStreithorst]

Yeah, Discus, Angels, BN, red and blue shrimp. I even raised some rainbow fish fry once kinda accidentally. But these rams are a whole different thing.

[coralbandit]

They look great ! They are active and look like they are eating which is great .
Continued success.

[Discluv]

Thank you! The BBS is "stewing"--- almost ready for a first feeding.

[Discluv]

Oh brother! there is another dark pair guarding some eggs that they laid on the back glass. Do I try to suction them off and put into a breeder box?

[Discluv]

I just left the eggs- I cant handle another group right now.

The BBS is a hit! :)

https://vimeo.com/385389604

[danotaylor]

The link doesn't work mate

[Discluv]

The link doesn't work mate

Thanks, I reloaded the video. Can you see it now?

[LizStreithorst]

It works now.

[Discluv]

Day 7- As of today, distinct color differences in fry. The golden color is definitely dominate- but, I see some blacks. From what Ive heard/read, the black fry are weaker ( Tom would need to confirm that, however). I wonder if that means that the black are weaker at all stages of fry development or up to a certain period.

I will try to get a video to see if I can capture the color differences. Someone skilled or with a better camera/ video most likely could.

On another topic--Looked this morning at other tank, all eggs eaten from other spawn.

[LizStreithorst]

Sometimes it's a relief when eggs are eaten, isn't it?

[coralbandit]

Great video Amy !
The fry look great and noting the color difference is a good sign .
Funny to see it so early huh ? Can't tell how dark they will be but that just leaves some mystery to the raising still.
They do say the darks are weak and slow growing all the way around .
I thought I read they should be separated from the others !
Just Thurs, night I had a buddy over and we were looking at a half dark half gold fry swarm when I said to him they need to be sorted ..
We both just sort of stared at them like ???? With a turkey baster and my next free 6 hours ?? Maybe in a couple more weeks ?
I would think everyday counts but realistically they can't be sorted for a while still.I have not yet sorted the god and dark while young yet but maybe this time ?
You got a bunch of fry there ! NICE !~

[Discluv]

Here is the video showing what looks like color variation in the fry, but maybe its just me.
https://vimeo.com/385609866

[Discluv]

Great video Amy !
The fry look great and noting the color difference is a good sign .
Funny to see it so early huh ? Can't tell how dark they will be but that just leaves some mystery to the raising still.
They do say the darks are weak and slow growing all the way around .
I thought I read they should be separated from the others !
Just Thurs, night I had a buddy over and we were looking at a half dark half gold fry swarm when I said to him they need to be sorted ..
We both just sort of stared at them like ???? With a turkey baster and my next free 6 hours ?? Maybe in a couple more weeks ?
I would think everyday counts but realistically they can't be sorted for a while still.I have not yet sorted the god and dark while young yet but maybe this time ?
You got a bunch of fry there ! NICE !~

Thanks Tom! To better learn about breeding these fish, it would be great if the people that are in the process of doing so shared information in a central location. That is always better-- to distinguish patterns /processes used that have been determined as successful.

My one off occurrence is not enough. I really dont know why it was successful --so far-- ( heavy emphasis on "so far"). Collaboration with others would really go far in establishing some recommendations for breeding.

[coralbandit]

I agree good info is hard to find in one place ..
I like your -- so far -- .
I usually say what do I know ? Everything I do is anecdotal ? It works for me and the fish I have ,maybe not for all ?
Now onto your fry !
You bet you see two colors ,nice job with the video again !
How dark is something I won't even guess but if the female was dark you should see a few darks ..The light colors are the golds ...Keep your eye on them so they don't steal the show .
Your fry are making you look like a pro !
Continued success !

[Discluv]

I agree good info is hard to find in one place ..
I like your -- so far -- .
I usually say what do I know ? Everything I do is anecdotal ? It works for me and the fish I have ,maybe not for all ?
Now onto your fry !
You bet you see two colors ,nice job with the video again !
How dark is something I won't even guess but if the female was dark you should see a few darks ..The light colors are the golds ...Keep your eye on them so they don't steal the show .
Your fry are making you look like a pro !
Continued success !

By "steal the show" you mean that the golds are stronger and can leave little food for the darks to grow and become stronger ( because they are weaker), correct?
Yes, I will separate the darks as soon as possible, so they can grow out together. When that will be, not sure; but, Ill wait and see...
Thanks for all your help, Tom.

[coralbandit]

By "steal the show" you mean that the golds are stronger and can leave little food for the darks to grow and become stronger ( because they are weaker), correct?
Yes, I will separate the darks as soon as possible, so they can grow out together. When that will be, not sure; but, Ill wait and see...
Thanks for all your help, Tom.

You got it going on and understand !
I have no clue when I will be able to separate and to date have not been able to until 2 months old .. I am comfortable with the fry in a 10g with wood and a few plants until then .
You have your fry in a very good sized tank to afford you time to wait till it is easier and you can see the benefit and not have to wonder if you are just messing things up .. KISS [ this is for me as well as you !].
You will get to try again ..Been over a week where is the gold male ?

[Discluv]

The gold male is back in the 30 gallon. He has been a good citizen for the most part. But, he has separated the pair that had formed. Im assuming it was a male/female, not sure if these eggs ever got fertilized. They were eaten quickly.
The gold has set up shop with a female. But, no eggs.

It is awesome to hear that I can keep these guys in the 10 gallon for 2 months. Excellent, in fact. I thought I would have to move them much quicker. This will give me time to get ready to set up another 10 to keep the blacks separated from the golds. So they are not out-competed by the golds and to segregate my own breeding stock ( hopefully). And the golds will continue to go back into the 30 for breeding and the excess Ill sell at my local aquatic society meetings/auction. You dont get much for fish there, but that is not the point of my efforts.

The previous is all "best case scenario", of course. But, Im pretty tenacious when I get directed- lol.

It appears that you do 50% water changes daily in your own 10 gallon grow-outs, correct?
Do you continue to feed them BBS throughout? I dont mind that, its pretty easy to do once you get set up. I am sure you said something about vinegar eels coming into the diet somewhere along the line. When can a high-quality crushed flake come into the diet as well?

[coralbandit]

Hard to say and justify but he is a good father ..Nothing came between him and his ..I like that .. We are soft ,nature is not it keeps it self fit and healthy .. We should learn ...
You need to pick his next female and set them up ..Then remove her after he eggs to go psycho with ! ..That could be the machine .
Gold and dark get 50/50 color wise . Now on the darks they say they are double dark like black angels then 25% of your fry are DD and they can only IME be dark .Mixing gold will always get you 50/50 .All my experience says gold to golds get 100% gold so we supposedly just need to get there with the darks ?
Nothing wrong with using the gold the creator did, but now when the fry grow you want to pair the darkest ,Have no fear of brother to sister breeding either ..If you have adults from the parnets of either when you think the fry are large enough to breed that is best [father to daughter or son to mother ] but very difficult or again down the road 6-8 months [strap in !] ..I say very difficult with rams with a chuckle ...That may actually be the whole stall in the process?? Breeding the sibling back to the parent ...

[Discluv]

This last post, it explained so much to me regarding genetics. Perfect for the layman.
Can I copy and paste it into my document thread so I have it in one place for myself and anyone in the future that may decide to challenge themselves-- lol!

I see now that learning to get a successful spawn, grow-out, and situate pairs are a preliminary set of hurtles. There are even more advanced hurtles beyond that.
Strap in is right.

[Discluv]

Here is a video of the fry. They are growing great.

https://vimeo.com/389147723

[danotaylor]

They look super healthy and in great condition mate! I love how prominent the first few dorsal rays are already. You're doing a fabulous job with this spawn!!

[coralbandit]

You are doing great with them ..They are very well developed .
They are big enough to handle the fen IMO .
You want to knock out that hydra .

[Discluv]

They look super healthy and in great condition mate! I love how prominent the first few dorsal rays are already. You're doing a fabulous job with this spawn!!

Thank you! :)

[Discluv]

I have some fenbendazole but it is over 10 years old!! I ordered some more --will be here tomorrow. Ill be nervous dosing the tank, but will do it anyways because the Hydra is really getting out of control.
Im also going to reduce the feeding to 3 x daily because Im obviously overfeeding.

[Discluv]

After 2 weeks finally got a spawn from a female dark/male dark.
Very excited!
Noticed the spawn this morning- and there were a few eggs that had already fungused. So must have spawned in the night or evening before. I left the female in for a few hours just in case weren't done fertilizing/laying and then put her back in the 30 with the other rams.

After losing a dark female with the last spawn, dont want to take chances with my stock until build onto the numbers of what I have.

https://i.imgur.com/Gsorwr0.jpg

[LizStreithorst]

They can be so sneaky when it comes to spawning. I didn't see the entire process until just yesterday when my blue's spawned again. Hope you catch them next time.

[coralbandit]

Sneaky fish ..YES !
Congrats Amy on this batch ..

[Discluv]

They can be so sneaky when it comes to spawning. I didn't see the entire process until just yesterday when my blue's spawned again. Hope you catch them next time.

Very sneaky- lol! Hopefully next time. :)

[Discluv]

Sneaky fish ..YES !
Congrats Amy on this batch ..

Thanks Tom. :)

[coralbandit]

He looks awesome in that picture and the tray is nicely filled with eggs .:D
Fins crossed ! I did not choose rams , they chose me ..

[Discluv]

He looks awesome in that picture and the tray is nicely filled with eggs .:D
Fins crossed ! I did not choose rams , they chose me ..

There are already wigglers in this group! They must have laid these eggs a couple days ago and I just didnt notice them. Which is understandable, I was busy over the weekend.

I know what you say about the rams choosing you--- I really have nothing to od with their success beyond changing water and feeding them-- they make it work :)

[LizStreithorst]

You're lucky. I have to put tea in my water to get a hatch everything I breed. If a sneaky pair does it and I don't notice, that spawn is toast.

[Second Hand Pat]

Congrats on the spawn :D I have noticed before a spawn the female drops her breeding tube.
Pat

[Discluv]

You're lucky. I have to put tea in my water to get a hatch everything I breed. If a sneaky pair does it and I don't notice, that spawn is toast.

There is a lot of fungus on these eggs, much more so than last spawn. I think this is because I noticed the eggs too late and wasnt able to put metheleyne blue in in the hours after spawning.

[Discluv]

Thanks Pat.
I will look for that next time. :)
I was very preoccupied with company this weekend so just kinda dropped food in the tank and didnt really "look".
Sneaky fish took this opportunity to drop some eggs :)

[coralbandit]

There is a lot of fungus on these eggs, much more so than last spawn. I think this is because I noticed the eggs too late and wasnt able to put metheleyne blue in in the hours after spawning.

Wait them out ..My best blacks have a huge pile of fungus eggs on the tray and still had a pretty large hatch..I don't MB unless I pull the eggs . If the parents are doing it no MB for me ever so don't worry yet .
Never any harm in waiting ..If they are gone the rams know ..They lead the way so I just do my part and try to keep track ..
Nobody ever told me they were sneaky !

[Discluv]

Wait them out ..My best blacks have a huge pile of fungus eggs on the tray and still had a pretty large hatch..I don't MB unless I pull the eggs . If the parents are doing it no MB for me ever so don't worry yet .
Never any harm in waiting ..If they are gone the rams know ..They lead the way so I just do my part and try to keep track ..
Nobody ever told me they were sneaky !

These little guys are roaming all around the saucer and dad is busy chasing them down and spitting them back into saucer. Lol! He seems a bit frustrated.
Thanks for the direction with the mb, I had it in yesterday, but not today. Did a large water change and didn't put back in.
Its been very interesting watching the male interact with wigglers, will keep him in for a couple weeks unless he starts to make me nervous.
Ill try not to stress too much about that fungus.



Edit: I started a vinegar eel culture a few weeks ago- do you think that I should start feeding these tomorrow to the wigglers or wait until free-swimming? Or, should I not feed the vinegar eels at all and just use the baby brine shrimp?

[coralbandit]

You can use the vinegar eels .
The wigglers don't eat while they are absorbing their yolk sac .
I subscribe to adding food I plan to feed fry to the parents and wigglers very lightly so the parents know food is present .

[Discluv]

Another spawn 4 days ago. Left the male and female in tank despite every day fighting against pulling out because of fear they would eat the eggs. Turned on the light this morning to see this:



https://vimeo.com/400344621

[coralbandit]

NICE !
Looks like 50/50 black /gold ..
The parents look like they are getting along well..
Now you get to see the other side of hit and miss !

[Discluv]

Tom--Do you mean "hit and miss" as in the parents eating the fry?
i am so tempted in pulling them out right now. Its making me so anxious.

[coralbandit]

No you have good parents now .
The hit and miss is you never know which pair will kill each other or live in perfect harmony ..
I would leave the parents they seem to be working together from what I saw ..
Is that the same male that killed the other female ?

[Discluv]

No you have good parents now .
The hit and miss is you never know which pair will kill each other or live in perfect harmony ..
I would leave the parents they seem to be working together from what I saw ..
Is that the same male that killed the other female ?

Oh no- that was the gold male.

[Discluv]

Tom,

The parents have both been in with fry for 8 days. The fry are growing and eating robustly. When should I think about taking them out? I dont want to push my luck and have them eat them.
Here is a video from a couple days ago

https://vimeo.com/400809533

[danotaylor]

Awesome mate, so cool watching the parents communicate by flicking their pelvic fins. Nice cloud of fry. All the best raising them!

[Discluv]

Awesome mate, so cool watching the parents communicate by flicking their pelvic fins. Nice cloud of fry. All the best raising them!

Thank you :)
I think they are flicking their tails and fins at me to back off with that camera- lol!

[coralbandit]

They look good .
If the fry are finding food on their own and eating you can remove the parents ,but I really don't think you have too.
After 14 days free swimming they are past the next major hurdle and then it is all good to move the parents .
I have left parent with fry for much longer without issue though .

[Discluv]

Okay, Ill wait until 14 days- thanks Tom.

Are you selling any discus?

[coralbandit]

Are you selling any discus?

I have my 7 almost 8 week old Santarems for $15 each plus shipping .

[Discluv]

I have my 7 almost 8 week old Santarems for $15 each plus shipping .

I just might.

You know what is so ironic. I have been waiting ages for my discus to spawn and I just got my first spawn in over 3 years with this pair. Not a very big spawn-- but now I know this Heckel is, indeed, a female.

https://i.imgur.com/GqxX3zQ.jpg

[coralbandit]

That's great !
They might spawn better if you offered them a cone .
It would give them a more defined target ..

[danotaylor]

Nice wild types mate...will be a nice cross and have an interesting variety of patterns. Hope they get it right and give you fry to raise!

[Discluv]

@danotaylor

The male is actually an F1 Alenquer. Would this be considered "wild-type".
The female is a Heckel cross. This makes it "wild- type" doesn't it?
All these different specifications make it so confusing.

[danotaylor]

I am no expert mate, but I believe both fish are wild types :thumbsup:
Are you able to post a pic of each fish side on! They look really nice!

[Discluv]

This is the female.
https://i.imgur.com/W6MzFc9.jpg

This is the male. He was sold to me as an F1 Alenquer.

https://i.imgur.com/c9M7hxy.jpg

[danotaylor]

Holy cow, that heckel cross has a red, blue, red triple halo and a blue face, she is amazing!! The alenquer is a pretty boy as well. Nice pairing!

[Discluv]

Been a couple months so I thought Id update this:

Finally got the dark Ram juveniles separated so could take a good look at them. I also took out a handful of the golds ( not all of them!) to look at them more closely.

Looks like I have 15 total dark Rams from this group. I am going to keep 5 for my breeding and sell the rest. It looks (to my yet untrained eye) to be 4 females and 6 males. Tom could correct me on that im sure :)

Here is a video of dark ram fry (4 mo.old) from gold male and dark female:

https://vimeo.com/421323900

Mom and dad. This was before the spawn was transferred to a breeding tank. The next morning when woke up the Gold male had killed the female. He is now banished to my 180 to live out his life in fish joy.

https://vimeo.com/421329943

Here are the gold Ram fry from this same Gold male and dark female:

https://vimeo.com/421329084

Here is the dark male/female pair that have fry that are about 1.5 months old. There are appx. 45 darks in this group.

https://vimeo.com/421329943

[coralbandit]

It is all about the anal fins Amy .
The males will have longer anal fins that reach into their tail while the females will end at the beginning of the tail .
Glad to see you did good raising fry .
The last video is the Pitch Black pair again [ same as second video ] .

[LizStreithorst]

I took my Black and Gold rams to the LFS today. Don't tell me I should have sold the Blacks on AB. You know how much fear I have of shipping. Next time I'll save some for future breeders. I'll save some of my Dutch Blue's, too. Of course when they get old enough to look at well I'll send you some for free if you want some in your fish room. I really do prefer them to the German Blue's.

[coralbandit]

I would like some of the Dutch !
Tristan doesn't even list them anymore on AB..

[peewee1]

@danotaylor

The male is actually an F1 Alenquer. Would this be considered "wild-type".
The female is a Heckel cross. This makes it "wild- type" doesn't it?
All these different specifications make it so confusing.

Wild things! They make your heart sing! Heckel cross and possible Red Alenquer with halo.

[peewee1]

I took my Black and Gold rams to the LFS today. Don't tell me I should have sold the Blacks on AB. You know how much fear I have of shipping. Next time I'll save some for future breeders. I'll save some of my Dutch Blue's, too. Of course when they get old enough to look at well I'll send you some for free if you want some in your fish room. I really do prefer them to the German Blue's.

If you would like to practice shipping, Liz, you could try sending a bag full of something to me. See how it works out for you.

[LizStreithorst]

I've sent blue shrimp out a couple of times. Once to a friend for free and once for money. They arrived in perfect condition, but fish like Discus and Rams, even BN scare me. The Discus and Rams are too valuable to loose if I do a bad job bagging and packing and I'm afraid that the BN will puncture the bag. It's a great relief to have the LFS that buys my fish. They give me 50% of what they sell them for and that's good enough for me. I have a spawn of Bosemani Rainbows that I can't wait to get large enough to take them. They'll be delighted. They know how much safer it is to buy from a local breeder than to have to depend on Asian imports through a wholesaler.

[peewee1]

I've sent blue shrimp out a couple of times. Once to a friend for free and once for money. They arrived in perfect condition, but fish like Discus and Rams, even BN scare me. The Discus and Rams are too valuable to loose if I do a bad job bagging and packing and I'm afraid that the BN will puncture the bag. It's a great relief to have the LFS that buys my fish. They give me 50% of what they sell them for and that's good enough for me. I have a spawn of Bosemani Rainbows that I can't wait to get large enough to take them. They'll be delighted. They know how much safer it is to buy from a local breeder than to have to depend on Asian imports through a wholesaler.

You are fortunate to have an excellent set up that need not change. When Kenny was a small boy just getting started in the Discus selling business he had those same fears as you but thankfully he over came those fears and went on to become one of the greatest sellers of Discus known to man, and woman, kind. Honestly, your method of selling or giving to the LFS inspired me to approach a LFS near me. I asked them if they would be interested in taking my spare Discus. They were delighted. Now I only need to get a handful of those spare Discus.

[LizStreithorst]

I sell mine my lesser quality Discus and ones that are very good but won't work in my breeding program, but they only want them when they are medium (3"). Nobody buys them when they're small and they are too hard to keep unlil they get a little size on them.

Discusluv, please forgive me for taking your thread and turning it into stuff about me. I didn't do it on purpose.

[Discluv]

It is all about the anal fins Amy .
The males will have longer anal fins that reach into their tail while the females will end at the beginning of the tail .
Glad to see you did good raising fry .
The last video is the Pitch Black pair again [ same as second video ] .

The tail fins- okay, thanks.

[coralbandit]

The tail fins- okay, thanks.

No not tail fin the anal fin [under fish before tail ] is the best way to judge these fish IMO ..

[Discluv]

No not tail fin the anal fin [under fish before tail ] is the best way to judge these fish IMO ..
I typed tail but meant anal fin. Sometimes words dont cooperate with the brain. :)