PH on a decline

[Mando]

Merry Christmas to All!

I noticed a few days ago (12/20) that my PH is steadily dropping. So I did a water change to bring it back up. However, next day it dropped again so I did another water change, and again it drops.

It feels like I'm having a ph crash? nothing has changed in the tank and the drop happens over 24 hours. For example. 12/26/19, 6.0 PH at 6:20am. 5.55 at 11:00pm, and this morning 5.44ph. It will continue on the decline until I water change. What could be going on? nothing has changed in the tank.

12/20/19
7:00am - 6.45 ph
6:00pm - 6.34 ph
11:00pm - 6.29 ph

12/21/19
7:00am - 6.16ph
6:00pm - 5.98
11:00pm - 5.82ph

12/22/19
7:00am - 5.65
1:00pm - 5.42

12/22/19, this is when I noticed the ph drop and I performed a water change. WC brought me back up to 6.46 but by 9pm I was at 5.81 again. My water is aged for 24 hours before going into the tank.

[jeep]

Is this your tap water?

[Mando]

Is this your tap water?

Tap into my 55g drum. Been running this setup for 2 years.

[danotaylor]

Mando it seems like somehow the carbonates in your system are being depleted. Your pH is already acidic and the nitrogen cycle is an acidifying process. Try adding some egg shells or coral sand or aragonite to replete your carbonates. This should stabilize you pH.

[Mando]

Mando it seems like somehow the carbonates in your system are being depleted. Your pH is already acidic and the nitrogen cycle is an acidifying process. Try adding some egg shells or coral sand or aragonite to replete your carbonates. This should stabilize you pH.

It started out of the blue. What could have triggered this?

[Mando]

Would 100% water change replete? I can do a 20% water change every hour until I can stabilize it.

[dspeers]

My process approaching this would be:
1. Is my ph probe accurate
2. Did something change in my source water.....would set aside a 5 gallon bucket and track ph beyond 24 hours and see if it is dropping and test Kh both in source and aquarium.
3. Is filtration system overwhelmed, what are the nitrates
4. Any new changes, i.e. different food source, plant fert, different filter material or anything else that might have changed

If none of the above is going on, not sure what could trigger this.

[danotaylor]

Hard to say really mate, possibly a change in your municipal treatment process. Did you ever check the kH of your source water previously? If so, check it now and see if it is less than before.

[danotaylor]

Just saw Don's post, lol, what he said, haha

[dspeers]

It's always fun when you are typing away and then hit post to see someone else has already responded ;) Has happened to me several times, probably ought to learn to type faster. Also, according to my daughter I am good at looking silly anyway.....

[jeep]

Winter can play havoc with municipal water supplies. You never know what adjustments are being made at the source. Your ph seems to be dropping quite rapidly so it's definitely worth monitoring. You can also use little sodium bicarbonate to raise and buffer your ph until you figure things out. A little goes a long way...

[Mando]

My process approaching this would be:
1. Is my ph probe accurate
2. Did something change in my source water.....would set aside a 5 gallon bucket and track ph beyond 24 hours and see if it is dropping and test Kh both in source and aquarium.
3. Is filtration system overwhelmed, what are the nitrates
4. Any new changes, i.e. different food source, plant fert, different filter material or anything else that might have changed

If none of the above is going on, not sure what could trigger this.

1. I thought the same thing, but even if it's not accurate, the decline should alert that there is a problem whether it is reading 7ph as 6ph. I'll re-calibrate the probe. I hope I still have solution.
2. Could be a possibility. I will test the PH after 24 hours. The weird thing is that when I add water from my aged tank, the PH rises. So I'm thinking the problem is in my tank. I will test KH on aged drum, tank, and 5g bucket (test bucket)
3. I threw in extra sponges two weeks ago to seed them, other than that, filtration should be fine. I have a sump and a canister with lava rocks only. I'll check nitrates shortly. I've been feeding once a day since I've been overwhelmed with the holidays.
4. I added Pothos to my sump on the 23rd, no ferts, no co2, nothing else.

[Mando]

ok, so my tank has no KH. First drop turns yellow using the API kit. It's supposed to turn blue. Also, nitrates are between 5-10. Nitrite is o.

I measured my tap and I have a KH of 3. Aged drum has a KH of 2.

[dspeers]

1. I agree that the probe cannot be the entire source of the problem since it consistently shows a falling Ph until water change, but was hoping it was possibly exaggerating the problem
2. Was more interested in the trend in the aged water, as in is the ph also falling and if so how far even after 24 hours. Given that you are using chloramines, you are adding small amounts of NH3 as well as off gassing CO2. Both would raise Ph, so if it is going down, which is implied by the falling Kh, one wonders why. To date I have not found a good explanation for why some tap water Ph goes down (other than biological contamination) with aging. The bucket was in case something got into your barrel, but if that were the case I would expect the pH to be much lower from the barrel.
3. Sure, it is the sponges fault....although I would take them out out of respect for Murphy's law. 4. Feed that Pothos lots of light.......though your NO3 is not your primary source of Ph change, just not high enough.
4. gotta get your Kh up, how depends on how high your Gh is, low add Ca carbonate, at or above target Na carbonate. Also if we believe the data I wonder why your Kh is falling at all in your aging barrel
5. Final question though with low NO3 almost impossible for this to be the cause, any way one of your fish is in the sump or canister? Small fish in my canister crashed my african tank decades ago, resulted from GF trying to do me a favor. She did not tell me that she had tried to clean the gravel and knocked off the strainer from the intake.

[Mando]

1. I agree that the probe cannot be the entire source of the problem since it consistently shows a falling Ph until water change, but was hoping it was possibly exaggerating the problem
2. Was more interested in the trend in the aged water, as in is the ph also falling and if so how far even after 24 hours. Given that you are using chloramines, you are adding small amounts of NH3 as well as off gassing CO2. Both would raise Ph, so if it is going down, which is implied by the falling Kh, one wonders why. To date I have not found a good explanation for why some tap water Ph goes down (other than biological contamination) with aging. The bucket was in case something got into your barrel, but if that were the case I would expect the pH to be much lower from the barrel.
3. Sure, it is the sponges fault....although I would take them out out of respect for Murphy's law. 4. Feed that Pothos lots of light.......though your NO3 is not your primary source of Ph change, just not high enough.
4. gotta get your Kh up, how depends on how high your Gh is, low add Ca carbonate, at or above target Na carbonate. Also if we believe the data I wonder why your Kh is falling at all in your aging barrel
5. Final question though with low NO3 almost impossible for this to be the cause, any way one of your fish is in the sump or canister? Small fish in my canister crashed my african tank decades ago, resulted from GF trying to do me a favor. She did not tell me that she had tried to clean the gravel and knocked off the strainer from the intake.

My aged barrel had water well after 24 hours since I skipped last night water change and the PH was at about 7.00ph. I did a water change and now my tanks PH went up to 6.7ph. I looked at my apex and it dropped .02 then raised .04. Not sure if it will drop overnight. I may add crushed coral and do a WC in the morning, afternoon, and evening so I can get it back to normal.

I will measure GH shortly.

[Cove Beach]

The story you are telling sounds much like what I went through about 2 months ago. Here is what I found in my case. Like you I thought probe first, checked it against API and found it was not broke. I also checked the other parameters of both the source water and the tank and only found the nitrates to be slightly elevated. I added crushed coral to my sump in a high flow area as suggested on the forum to buffer and slow the ph drop. I didn’t see any real improvement. Next I did a deep clean on the sump every day until I wasn’t seeing anything hardly to vacume up anymore. And lastly, and this seems to have put an end to the ph issue, I replaced and increased the Purigen in my reactor. The media was maybe a little over a year old and had been regenerated at least 10 times. My ph sank into the 5.50 range,it had me pretty freaked out. After doing that the ph steadily went back up to normal and has stabilized. I hope this helps.

[bluelagoon]

Mando it seems like somehow the carbonates in your system are being depleted. Your pH is already acidic and the nitrogen cycle is an acidifying process. Try adding some egg shells or coral sand or aragonite to replete your carbonates. This should stabilize you pH.

This is what's going on. It happens in my tanks. I have to add baking soda along with the food daily to keep the PH around 6.7. Like mentioned they are things similar to crushed coral that can be added to the filter.

[fljones3]

Purigen does seem to affect PH at some point. At least that's my experience also.

[Mando]

Should I put crushed coral in my canister filter? Where can I get crushed coral from?

[Cove Beach]

Most LFS that sell saltwater stuff will have it. You will find it under the name arragonite. Also if they have calcium reactor media, that’s another option. I would put it where it will see the most flow, if you are using a canister I would put it in the stage right before it exits back to the tank so it’s not collecting crud.

[Filip]

Your tap water KH is too low to start with Mando.
You can start ading baking soda straight in your aging barell and aim for at least 5 dg. KH on regular basis with every WC . Couple of tries and errors and you'll learn the exact dose of baking soda that gets you to +5KH .

[Cove Beach]

If you can’t find it locally, you can order it from BRS.

[Mando]

If you can’t find it locally, you can order it from BRS.

I will definitely give this a go! thank you for your help.


Your tap water KH is too low to start with Mando.
You can start ading baking soda straight in your aging barell and aim for at least 5 dg. KH on regular basis with every WC . Couple of tries and errors and you'll learn the exact dose of baking soda that gets you to +5KH .

I agree that it is very low even straight from tap. I wonder if I should go back to well water. What are your thoughts? When I came into the discus industry, I struggled with my first batch and I blamed it on my well water. However, I think it was mostly on my husbandry and a bunch of other mistakes I made. I'm sure my well water has the right amount of KH. I can test it after work.

Regardless, What would you suggest as a first dose of baking soda on a 55g drum?

[Filip]

I will definitely give this a go! thank you for your help.



I agree that it is very low even straight from tap. I wonder if I should go back to well water. What are your thoughts? When I came into the discus industry, I struggled with my first batch and I blamed it on my well water. However, I think it was mostly on my husbandry and a bunch of other mistakes I made. I'm sure my well water has the right amount of KH. I can test it after work.

Regardless, What would you suggest as a first dose of baking soda on a 55g drum?

I would stick with the current tap source and start adding baking soda to increase the KH .
I've never had to do this because my tap is rock hard and I can't tell the exact amount and water /soda ratio but I wouldn't hesitate to experiment in an aging barrel. Try with a teaspoon today and measure it tommorow again prior WC too se where it gets you . In a couple of tries you'll know the exact amount your tap and barrel needs to get above 5 Dgkh.

[dspeers]

Just curious, wouldn't it be worthwhile to determine what the Gh is before opting to correct with baking soda rather that partly or completely correcting with Ca carbonate. Not sure about fish but in humans with otherwise Ca poor diets, Ca in the water supply is an important source and lack of Ca causes a variety of adverse health outcomes. Although the target Gh should be in the medium soft-medium range (60-100) ppm, if the Gh like the Kh is also extremely low wouldn't you address?

[Mando]

Just curious, wouldn't it be worthwhile to determine what the Gh is before opting to correct with baking soda rather that partly or completely correcting with Ca carbonate. Not sure about fish but in humans with otherwise Ca poor diets, Ca in the water supply is an important source and lack of Ca causes a variety of adverse health outcomes. Although the target Gh should be in the medium soft-medium range (60-100) ppm, if the Gh like the Kh is also extremely low wouldn't you address?

I agree with you, Don. In the past, when I measured GH, it was extremely low as well. I completely forgot to check it again yesterday but I will get to it today.

[Second Hand Pat]

Accurately kH is what you want to measure since it is what buffers pH.
Pat

[RogueDiscus]

Agreeing with Pat and Don, I think, and checking my limited chemistry knowledge. I think calcium carbonate, magnesium sulfate, sodium chloride, potassium whatever, are all simple ionic compounds or "salts." The carbonate is what reacts with the ammonia on the way to creating nitrates, but the calcium, magnesium, potassium, and sodium are all necessary electrolyte (electrical carriers) chemicals in fish as well as humans.

[Mando]

So how would I address low GH and KH? They are both extremely low.

[RogueDiscus]

Sorry, I don't mean to muddy up this thread. You need carbonates, whatever the cause is, but if your GH is low, too, I think Don's got you on the right track with calcium carbonate forms.

Maybe I could start packaging my well water!

[kev1310]

I've got a very similar problem, I've just upped my pairs tanks from two to four and the problem only affects one of the existing tanks. The fish were looking a little off so I checked the PH and it was 4.5 :eek: A quick 50% water change and it was up to 6.2, 3 hours later they spawned.

This morning when I went in they'd eaten the eggs, I should have twigged then that there was something wrong as this pair NEVER eat the eggs even when they're infertile. Tonight they were going dark so I checked the PH again and it was 4.7 :shocked2: I did a 70% change and it came up to 6.3. The only things in the bloody tank are the fish, a breeding cone, a heater, a sponge filter and the water!!!

The other three set ups, using the same aged water all hold steady at about 6.5 - 6.7 simply by syphoning off the waste daily and refilling, maybe a 15% change. My aged water is 6.7 at 60ppm hardness (don't know the KH).

I swapped the filter out tonight from one of those free standing, base weighted ones to a hang on dual sponge from another tank to see if that makes a difference. Other than this I'm at a total loss as to why only one tank out of the four has the problem.

[dspeers]

So how would I address low GH and KH? They are both extremely low.

What I would do is add Ca Carbonate until I met target GH target, then add additional baking soda till I met KH target. KH will drop over time at a rate dependent on the amount of acid being produced, i.e. nitrate in water is nitric acid and phosphate in water is phosphoric acid. KH drops as carbonate plus 1 Hydrogen ion from an acid makes bicarb and bicarb plus 1 H ion makes water and CO2 which exits the system. The elimination of the H+ is the buffering effect.

If you find yourself having to continue to add bicarb to maintain KH you still have a source of excessive acid production, if you are not sure you can track with a TDS meter, which does not actually measure TDS but all ionically active dissolved molecules and then estimates TDS. The obvious next question is how much is too much. Given how soft your water is I assume you are starting low, and stability is more important than absolute number. I would check your TDS AFTER your have fixed GH and KH and then if you are having to add additional NA bicarb (your GH should not go down) then check your TDS and probably opt for new water over more bicarb at 2x starting TDS value, but I have no good data to support that opinion. Curious about other folks thoughts. Hopefully this last is pure speculation and fixing KH fixes problem.

[dspeers]

Kev, you have successfully defined a seemingly impossible situation, 4 identical tanks, 3 with one good outcome, one with an unstable bad outcome. Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." —Sherlock Holmes.

You already changed the filter, next move the cone, then move the heater, then the fish. If the problem remains in the tank regardless of all of the changes, close it down, clean it thoroughly, sterilize it. (I like H2O2). Retry the tank, if the Ph drops again, either kill the tank or give it to someone you really don't like.;) If the Ph follows the fish and they are otherwise healthy, good luck, nothing constructive to contribute if that is the outcome.

[kev1310]

Hi Don, I know, very weird situation, however after swapping out the filter and replacing it with a mature dual sponge hang on type one the PH hasn't budged from 6.6 (at 60ppm hardness) over the last two days, so it was definitely the sponge filter causing the problem. I've moved the offending filter to a grow out tank where the water is 350ppm so it won't cause any more issues.

I've no idea why it should suddenly have caused an issue but all good now :)

[dspeers]

Glad things worked out and you IDed the problem, though why that particular filter is an acid pump is beyond me.

[Mando]

My fish are fully on well water now. I did what Brian and Pat suggested and removed the membrane from my ro system and running the water through 2x5micron and 1x carbon filter.

Ph is super stable already. Sorry I went the easy route and I did not fix the originally problem so this post will be useless for future searches.

[Second Hand Pat]

Good to hear things are working out for you Armando :)
Pat