2 gone - water treatment

[janivr]

Hi,
I had 7 discus.
2 of them got a disease last Friday and died.
5 of them are still alive. I've treated nox-ich for 3 days Sun-Tue. Did 50% WC on Wed.

Should I do anything to purify my water (antibiotics?) or should I continue as usual (WC 25% twice a week)?

Thanks
126187

[danotaylor]

That does not look anything like ich. Fill out the entire questionnaire in the emergency room section. We need more info, but that looks like a bacterial infection to me. While you wait for the more definitive answers you'll get after filling out the questionnaire, I would add salt at 7-10tbsp/10 gal.

[Second Hand Pat]

It is always best to flush meds out with large water changes. I remember this in the SimplyDiscus FB group. Are the rest of the fish doing ok? Filling out the questionnaire maybe a good idea.
Pat

[bluelagoon]

Look at this thread. The sores reminds me of this. See the angel fish pic. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?135565-New-member-looking-for-help-with-research-(long)&highlight=columnaris

[janivr]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?
The stains above started to appear in two of my 7 discus fish (who have been in stress due to pecking - 4 total). Died after few hours. this happened Friday, December 20th, AM.
Another one died during the night of December 28th. This one was a healty one, stroing, not hiding, not under stress at all. She was a female part of a spawning couple. I don't know what cause her death.
Now I have 4 discus. 2-3 strong and peccking. One is hiding, fast breating, not eatingn too much.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
Like in the pic


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
Nox-ich, half dose


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

220l/55gal (80X55X50 cm). two-three months old. 4 Discus left, 12 Cori, 6 Antsitrus, loaches, Shrimps, 2 apistogramas

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
30% twice a week

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

2-3 months, planted tank, substrate: pool sand and plant soil (different areas), 2-6cm depth

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
no agin, no ph swing

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?

Prime added to the tank after every WC

9. Parameters and water source;
Tap water

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp __29___

- ph ___4.7__

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading __0__

- nitrate reading __80__

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

Tap

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

- RO water ____


10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Yes, cori, shrimp, loach

11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

Nutridiet discus flakes, tubifex, granulas, Cobalt,

12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
done. see above

[Tuterosso]

and photo aquarium is where? ph is too low more WC and use salt

[JJOZ]

Hi janivr

If I'm reading this correctly I'm surprised you have any discus alive at all, 80ppm nitrates is extremely high and will greatly stress discus, you also say prime added to tank after every water change, water for water changes should be prepared in a container / barrel, prime should be added to water in this container first and allowed to mix for several minutes at least and then added to your tank for a water change.
PH of 4.7 is very low too but I would not try to change that just yet if that's what it's been for a while.
I would not be dosing any chemicals or medications but instead do large proper water changes to get those nitrates down to at least under 20ppm or lower, and don't feed your fish anything for a while until things turn around.
Make sure you also have good aeration in your tank via an air stone or power head directed at the surface.
I hope you have some luck with this but it sounds like things have been bad for a while and you may still lose some more fish yet.
There is other things wrong with your tank too but they can be worried about later, please try these suggestions first and keep us posted !

[bluelagoon]

When fish reach that point it's time to use a broad spectum antibiotic. The only sure way to determine the bacterium would be a microscope but to me they look like an aeromonas strain of bacteria. They are under stressful conditions in your set up.

[janivr]

Guys, I'm sorry. The PH is 7.4 not 4.7 - it was a typo bug.

2 out of 3 last comments (thank you!!!!) suggested me not to add antibiotics. Is there any chance that the bacteria is in the water and WC won't help?

How often should I do WC and how much? How oftne should I add salt and how much (in addition to DIscus I also have antsitrus, coris, loaches, and shrimps)
I'll change the way I do WC - I'll prepare a container and add the prime to the container. Should I also warm the water? temperature usually drops from 29-30 to 28.
I have plants and I dose Thrive+, maybe it affect the nitrate (someone told me so)?
I have two long air stones but I installed them vertically (one in tank one in my internal sump).


What other things are wrong?

Thanks again!

[bluelagoon]

A tank shot would help. I would say try 50% WC every two days to start. Then watch your nitrates and change accordingly. This should be aged aerated water. IMO, I would treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic and ditch the salt. You already have fish that died. You also have fish that don't tolerate salt well. All the fish should be treated, looks contagious and not all may even live though the treatment itself. 28 degrees is good enough for the treatment. Is your tank high tech? High lighting? Is this the reason for adding ferts?

[danotaylor]

+1 with Merv. This tank needs a broad spectrum antibiotic or the rest are almost certainly doomed. This is end stage disease...

[janivr]

Thanks, What type of antibiotics?
How do I make sure Nitrate is not arising again?

thanks

[JJOZ]

Guys, I'm sorry. The PH is 7.4 not 4.7 - it was a typo bug.

2 out of 3 last comments (thank you!!!!) suggested me not to add antibiotics. Is there any chance that the bacteria is in the water and WC won't help?

How often should I do WC and how much? How oftne should I add salt and how much (in addition to DIscus I also have antsitrus, coris, loaches, and shrimps)
I'll change the way I do WC - I'll prepare a container and add the prime to the container. Should I also warm the water? temperature usually drops from 29-30 to 28.
I have plants and I dose Thrive+, maybe it affect the nitrate (someone told me so)?
I have two long air stones but I installed them vertically (one in tank one in my internal sump).


What other things are wrong?

Thanks again!

Hi again janivr

That's good news that your PH is 7.4 and not 4.7
Have you done some large water changes so far to reduce nitrates ?
The larger the better at the moment, do them one after another if you have to until those nitrates are at a safer level, 20ppm or lower, preferably lower like 5ppm
Yes it's a very good idea to warm your water to the same temp as your tank for water changes, sudden changes in temperature are not good for any fish.
Once you've got your water as it should be you could treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic as others have suggested and you should be able to get that at your local aquarium shop or pet store.
I personally never use any medications and find good clean water at the correct parameters is the best medication but as long as you follow the directions of any medications correctly it certainly won't hurt to use them.
Yes I would also stop dosing the "Thrive" for the moment at least, the fact that you have nitrates of 80 ppm when you've been doing water changes of 30% twice a week makes me think something isn't right and I'm curious about your plant soil also, is it a proper soil designed specifically for aquarium use or have you done a "Dirted" tank using potting mix ?
Many potting mix's have large amount of organic material in them that break down rapidly once submerged in water and will cause havoc with water chemistry for a long time before things settle down.
If you have used potting mix then you may have trouble keeping nitrates down and would probably be best to get your fish out of there and into something with safe or no substrate.
Your substrate is also pretty deep at 6cm in parts and over time may develop anaerobic bacteria which if disturbed during tank cleaning can cause water quality issues as well but it's nothing to worry about at the moment if your tank set up is only a few months old.

Keep testing your water while doing water changes and try to keep those nitrates down under 20ppm or lower.

How are the fish doing ?

[janivr]

Thanks
I made some tests to my tap water plus some reading. In my area the tap water nitrate is 20-40ppm. It will be hard to maintain 20ppm. Is there anything that I can do to reduce nitrate?


I use plant soil substrate from JBL. A well known plant substrate.

I will take a break with the thrive+.

3 fish are OK (2 are super). 1 is still hiding and not eating.

BTW, I have an internal sump within my tank including wool and 3 bags of matrix. What is the recommended way to maintain it?

BTW 2, I plan to add a UV light sterilization in couple of months (waiting for the shipment).

Thanks again

[Sturiosoma]

You could try a product called Allgone or Api nitrate zorb

Jeanne

[JJOZ]

Yikes, 20 to 40 nitrates straight out of the tap is not good and most likely the root cause of your problems, there are products like the ones jeanne suggests but their effectiveness is debatable and it would be a very costly way to keep discus long term.
Fast growing plants can take up nitrates very well but require high lighting and CO2 to really be efficient.
I think an RO unit would be your best bet, these strip everything out and give you the cleanest water possible, so clean that you will probably need to add some things back in to raise the PH back up a bit and restore some minerals that fish require.
An RO unit is easy to set up, I use one for my reef tank but I don't know about what you need to add to RO water to make it OK for Discus, people usually just add some tap water back in but in your case that would mean adding nitrates back in which defeats the purpose.
I'll see what I can find out for you and let you know, but for now I'm afraid you're in a tight spot and I can only recommend to keep testing your water and do water changes how ever often you need to to keep your nitrates as low as possible.
Stuff as many fast growing plants in your tank as you can too.
Try to keep feedings to a minimum and keep your substrate clean.
It sounds like your internal filter is working fine if you have zero ammonia and nitrites but try to replace the filter wool as soon as it starts to look dirty.