Making Ro water for breeding tank. 2 problems

[slaven]

I have 2 tanks with breeding pairs.
First: One pair cover red and melon. Laying egges every 5 days but alwaays is a problem. Or eggs are white, or eggs are hatch but when have to swim dissapear. The pairs are good parents. Thinking about water. My tap water is very ard than I mix Ro water with tap (removing the Chlor). They are young pair but after 8 or nine tries no success. Think that could be the water. Water conditions: GH 3-4, nitrite 0. PH about 6,5.
I think that could be water quality, maybe to much changes with different paramenters.
Please help me to with your experience with remineralizing Ro. What is the best way and which additives you are putting in your breeding aquarium.

Second. I bought the confirmed pair of Golden checkers. They eat a lot but no laying eggs. Eating very well, seems very happy, they fight a little but no breeding. What can be the reason? I am changing the water every second day 20-30%, to induce the breeding.

Thank you in advance

[LizStreithorst]

My tap water has a very low TDS (79). All my other parameters say that I should be able to breed in straight tap, but I can't. I'm taking my TDS down to 20ish with RO. Now I'm having success. My best advice is to add more and more RO to the mix until the fish succeed. Buy a TDS meter. That will help you know when you reach the sweet spot. BTW, I'm very lucky. Once my eggs hatch into wigglers I can switch to pure RO waste to raise them until adulthood, so no waste! I get to use all my water. Now that is a blessing.

[Willie]

The two pairs have different issues.

1. Young pairs often eat their first few spawns, especially if the size of the spawn is small. If they spawn every 5 - 7 days as you described, then every spawn is small. Eating spawns then become habitual. You'll need to break them of this habit. Easiest way to do this is to put a partition between the two fish and let them go 30 days before reuniting them. The result will be a very large spawn. When they do spawn, you need to put a cage between them and the eggs. (Make the cage now, not when they spawn.) Usually by the time the fry goes free swimming, the parents have bonded and they will not eat the spawn. Ideally, you should let your pair spawn 30 - 40 days apart to get big, healthy spawns.

The second issue is R/O. Discus will spawn in hard water, but the eggs will harden almost immediately due to the presence of calcium ions. You don't need to add R/O water until they start to clean the cone prior to spawning. When that happens, I usually do a 100% water change in the breeding tank with R/O water. The fish then spawns into soft, and very clean, water. Once the male has fertilized the eggs, hard water is no longer a problem for development. You can maintain water changes with tap water. In summary, discus really only need soft water for 45 minutes of its existence, when it's an unfertilized egg. And no matter what some manufacturers claim, they do fine in R/O water. No one adds R/O Right in the Amazon, where the water is as soft as R/O.

2. Buying pairs is very risky. If I had a good pair of discus, one that can produce spawns every 30 - 60 days, that pair can easily generate $10,000 of young discus income annually. How much would I have to charge to make this a good deal for me? It's not $300 - $500. So good pairs are seldom available. I've kept great mated pairs that spawned 4 - 5 times a year for me, and I've had mated pairs that spawned exactly once. I sell the pairs that do not spawn regularly.

The exceptions to this generalization are only a handful of breeders who will produce more pairs than they can handle. If someone offers a mated pair of discus for sale, the key question is why are they doing this? Getting discus to mate is thrilling and potentially profitable. Buying pairs is much more risky.

Hope this helps, Willie

[slaven]

Thank you very much. People you are great with your advices.
The breeding pair preceeds from the retailer who does not breed, but sells adult discus. And when some of them make a pairs he separates them and check for breeding capacity.He does not breed, but he was garanting me that the had the babies.
Any advice what to do? To separate them and unify again? there are precious pair.
Thank you

[peewee1]

Thank you very much. People you are great with your advices.
The breeding pair preceeds from the retailer who does not breed, but sells adult discus. And when some of them make a pairs he separates them and check for breeding capacity.He does not breed, but he was garanting me that the had the babies.
Any advice what to do? To separate them and unify again? there are precious pair.
Thank you

A beautiful thing is the advices that you are getting here. But for the fish they first have to think about it and then decide what to do and then how to do it. Conditions have to be good for them. You seem to be going about this in a correct way so maybe now you have to include the patience. Maybe one week, maybe one year. The fish will decide when if you give them the best opportunities. I used to be able to breed the Discus without much thinking about it. I put fish into 20 gallon tank with peat moss in filter. Give them special blend of beef heart and pretty soon I have lots of babies. But I did not think too much about it either. I just put the fish and they made it happen. Now I try the same and all I can get is lots of shaking and much pecking on everything in tank. And no babies. I, and maybe you too, are missing one simple step?

[Willie]

Thank you very much. People you are great with your advices.
The breeding pair preceeds from the retailer who does not breed, but sells adult discus. And when some of them make a pairs he separates them and check for breeding capacity.He does not breed, but he was garanting me that the had the babies.
Any advice what to do? To separate them and unify again? there are precious pair.
Thank you

When adult discus that have paired move from a fish store into your fish room, conditions likely change greatly. It'll take a while before the fish adapts. I suggest you check with the seller on his/her choice of food. Also, you may consider cutting back on the water changes since fish stores likely have much less upkeep.

Good luck, Willie

[slaven]

My tap water has a very low TDS (79). All my other parameters say that I should be able to breed in straight tap, but I can't. I'm taking my TDS down to 20ish with RO. Now I'm having success. My best advice is to add more and more RO to the mix until the fish succeed. Buy a TDS meter. That will help you know when you reach the sweet spot. BTW, I'm very lucky. Once my eggs hatch into wigglers I can switch to pure RO waste to raise them until adulthood, so no waste! I get to use all my water. Now that is a blessing.

Please, do you maintain the discus in 20 TDS? That low TDS, is not harmful for discus paiirs? Do you add something also as supplement?
Thank you

[LizStreithorst]

I add tap to bring the low TDS from the RO up to 20. I only use that water for breeders or if I want to nudge some others into the family mood. Once I see wigglers I start changing to straight tap and they do fine. But to be honest, I raised Discus for many years in 100% unconstituted RO and they did fine.

[Willie]

Please, do you maintain the discus in 20 TDS? That low TDS, is not harmful for discus paiirs? Do you add something also as supplement?
Thank you

Hardness in the Amazon ranges from 8 - 60 microsiemens (uS/cm). For comparison, 60 uS/cm = 0.33 TDS. So low TDS is not at all harmful to discus. Since your #1 pair successfully produced wrigglers, I doubt that your tap water needs further softening at all.

Like Liz, I've successfully maintained discus for many years in straight R/O. The so-called "R/O supplements" is marketing hype. If you taste these, you'll find they're mostly plain table salt.

Willie

[slaven]

Hardness in the Amazon ranges from 8 - 60 microsiemens (uS/cm). For comparison, 60 uS/cm = 0.33 TDS. So low TDS is not at all harmful to discus. Since your #1 pair successfully produced wrigglers, I doubt that your tap water needs further softening at all.

Like Liz, I've successfully maintained discus for many years in straight R/O. The so-called "R/O supplements" is marketing hype. If you taste these, you'll find they're mostly plain table salt.

Willie

Yes the first pair is working but still have a problems with fries. When they swim some of them find the parents but most suddenly die, scattering through tank. How I can resolve this problem. They do not eat them I am sure, just in the morninf I do not find tem.
Any advise?
Thanks

[LizStreithorst]

Try turning off the lights or lowering their intensity and also lowering the water level to just above the parent's dorsal fins.

[Willie]

Agree with Liz. I would also stop the filter, because parents shake to attract the fry to attach. With filtration, fry cannot sense the shaking. So still water is what you need.

For PB-based pairs, I would remove the sponge filter. PB-based discus cannot darken to attract the fry, which then congregate around the sponge filter. Some people will wrap a white tower around the tank to lighten everything and highlight the parents. Other people have suggested going to white sponges, but I think white filters would just darken with time. Usually just removing the sponge filter is enough for me.

Stopping the filtration is completely doable, because attachment has to occur within 24 hours. After that, the fry would have starved. So stop/remove filtration. At worst, the water may get cloudy. But the fry can handle this for the first 24 hours. Once they attach, a big water change is in order. I've done 90% water changes with parents and fry with no problems.

Good luck, Willie

[slaven]

Agree with Liz. I would also stop the filter, because parents shake to attract the fry to attach. With filtration, fry cannot sense the shaking. So still water is what you need.

For PB-based pairs, I would remove the sponge filter. PB-based discus cannot darken to attract the fry, which then congregate around the sponge filter. Some people will wrap a white tower around the tank to lighten everything and highlight the parents. Other people have suggested going to white sponges, but I think white filters would just darken with time. Usually just removing the sponge filter is enough for me.

Stopping the filtration is completely doable, because attachment has to occur within 24 hours. After that, the fry would have starved. So stop/remove filtration. At worst, the water may get cloudy. But the fry can handle this for the first 24 hours. Once they attach, a big water change is in order. I've done 90% water changes with parents and fry with no problems.

Good luck, Willie

Thank you All. I appreciate your help. Lizz the light is already very low. Is small led lamp. I will try to do as you told me. Mostly male which is red cover is turning brown to attract the babies. Just 2 or 3 attach, others swim arround. Tomorrow I do not find any. I will try to stop and remove the sponge filter. The heater cover is black, and the pad between bottom and the table is black. Maybe I have to remove it when there is no egges and when changing all water, because I need to move the tank.
Thanks a lot.
S

[slaven]

Agree with Liz. I would also stop the filter, because parents shake to attract the fry to attach. With filtration, fry cannot sense the shaking. So still water is what you need.

For PB-based pairs, I would remove the sponge filter. PB-based discus cannot darken to attract the fry, which then congregate around the sponge filter. Some people will wrap a white tower around the tank to lighten everything and highlight the parents. Other people have suggested going to white sponges, but I think white filters would just darken with time. Usually just removing the sponge filter is enough for me.

Stopping the filtration is completely doable, because attachment has to occur within 24 hours. After that, the fry would have starved. So stop/remove filtration. At worst, the water may get cloudy. But the fry can handle this for the first 24 hours. Once they attach, a big water change is in order. I've done 90% water changes with parents and fry with no problems.

Good luck, Willie

Thank you Willie and Liz,
I did as you have told me. The last spawn was a big load of eggs. And the critical moment was that babies attach. And now everything works fine. Finally they invaded the father. There is a lot of babies. And survived after 24h.
Perfect.
When do you start to give them live artemia (hatched eggs)?
Thanks a lot

[LizStreithorst]

Between 3 and 5 days free swimming. It can take them a little time for them to figure out that it's food so try squirting the BBS right over the parent's back.

[Willie]

...When do you start to give them live artemia (hatched eggs)? Thanks a lot

Congratulations! My advise for hobbyists with their first spawn is to start a live artemia hatch right away, just to practice. You can always freeze them for future use. I agree with Liz to feed early. For me, I usually make the first feeding on Day 4 free swimming.

While bbs feeding is satisfying, you should think about how to wean fry to solid food sometime between Day 15 - 20 free swimming. I prefer using finely shredded beefheart. The growth rate on solid food vs bbs is incomparable.

One problem with young pairs is that they may spawn again - often when the fry are still young. If that happens, you need to remove the spawn or the parents will eat them.

Willie

[fljones3]

Start out with BBS and don't overfeed. Start with a little and add as you see them eating. I would also turn off the filters during feeding.

[slaven]

Between 3 and 5 days free swimming. It can take them a little time for them to figure out that it's food so try squirting the BBS right over the parent's back.

Dear All,
as I have told you 2-3 days the parents were literally covered with babies. Attached well, eating from mucus. This morning was the same. I was so happy. This afternoon only 20-30 left.
Any experience what could happened?
Can they eat the babies? I doubt.
I am desparate.
S

[Willie]

I've not seen parents eat fry that are attached, unless they've spawned again. Watch your fish carefully because something else may be going on.

[fljones3]

If there are no other fish and there are no dead fry seen, if there is no canister intake filter, then you have only one conclusion left.
Any aggression between the pair? Are you feeding the pair a little?


Dear All,
as I have told you 2-3 days the parents were literally covered with babies. Attached well, eating from mucus. This morning was the same. I was so happy. This afternoon only 20-30 left.
Any experience what could happened?
Can they eat the babies? I doubt.
I am desparate.
S

[slaven]

If there are no other fish and there are no dead fry seen, if there is no canister intake filter, then you have only one conclusion left.
Any aggression between the pair? Are you feeding the pair a little?

The procedure was like this. When they started to swim I removed the sponge filter and hanging filter. I have reduced the water level to 1/3 just above the dorsal fin. And as I have told you the babies (maybe it was 200) were attached perfectly. After that I add a new water until the top. 2 days I did not change the water and no sponge filter.
I was feeding the parents 3 times a day with small portion of beefheart. I suspect only or dirty water or parents were hungry. The parents are very peacefull and in calm place in garagge.
Today only 3-4 left:cry:
Maybe lack of mucus?Could this happen?
I have to arm myself with a lot of patience.

[LizStreithorst]

You should have added the filter back after attachment. 2 days without a water change and no filter may be what did them in.

[fljones3]

As Liz mentioned, once attachment was made the sponge filter should have been placed back in the tank or the area of the tank where the spawn occurred. With fry, WC are critical - at least daily if not twice a day (see the 2019 grow out challenges). I put only a few pellets with my pair a day. Later, I added FDBW. I also would have kept the water level reduced for awhile. Hopefully, they will spawn again.


The procedure was like this. When they started to swim I removed the sponge filter and hanging filter. I have reduced the water level to 1/3 just above the dorsal fin. And as I have told you the babies (maybe it was 200) were attached perfectly. After that I add a new water until the top. 2 days I did not change the water and no sponge filter.
I was feeding the parents 3 times a day with small portion of beefheart. I suspect only or dirty water or parents were hungry. The parents are very peacefull and in calm place in garagge.
Today only 3-4 left:cry:
Maybe lack of mucus?Could this happen?
I have to arm myself with a lot of patience.

[Willie]

The sponge filter should be returned and operational 24 hours after attachment. Perhaps the ammonia built up and killed off the fry. Lots of different things can also be happening. It's difficult to understand how much urea a swarm of fry puts out. Their metabolism is super high and ammonia spikes are possible without a nitrogen cycle.

New pairs will almost always spawn again and you'll be ready this time!

Good luck, Willie

[CliffsDiscus]

The procedure was like this. When they started to swim I removed the sponge filter and hanging filter. I have reduced the water level to 1/3 just above the dorsal fin. And as I have told you the babies (maybe it was 200) were attached perfectly. After that I add a new water until the top. 2 days I did not change the water and no sponge filter.
I was feeding the parents 3 times a day with small portion of beefheart. I suspect only or dirty water or parents were hungry. The parents are very peacefull and in calm place in garagge.
Today only 3-4 left:cry:
Maybe lack of mucus?Could this happen?
I have to arm myself with a lot of patience.

Pairs can kill or eat the fry in a split second.
Need to do more waterchanges. As far as
lack of mucus yes, some commerical breeders add prolactin this will make
the breeding pair to produce mucus.

Cliff

[slaven]

After this situation I did complete WC and the pair started to be aggressive to each other. Never noticed this before. I hope that they will recover from this stress.
S