Hard Water Question for Discus keeping

[Andy83]

Hi, first post here and hoping someone can help me sift through all the different info I have received.

I have kept tropical fish for a while and now am going into specifically discus keeping. I have some discus in mind and the breeder has kept them in GH 3 with a Ph of 6.5. My water is Gh 13 KH 8 and PH 8 (stable). Do you think I would be able to acclimatise the discus to my natural tap water or should I consider mixing in RO water to help soften it. I am only asking I have read my water readings would be ok to keep discus in as long as I am not intending to breed (which I am not). Does anyone have any info that might help me decide on what to do?

Thanks

[LizStreithorst]

What you have read here about keeping Discus in hard water is correct. When you receive your fish empty the water in the bag into a bucket and just drop and plop the fish in the tank. One large change in water parameters is not harmful. What is harmful is constant swings from WC being done with water that is not stable. It seems counter intuitive, but it's a fact.

[Sturiosoma]

Hi, first post here and hoping someone can help me sift through all the different info I have received.

I have kept tropical fish for a while and now am going into specifically discus keeping. I have some discus in mind and the breeder has kept them in GH 3 with a Ph of 6.5. My water is Gh 13 KH 8 and PH 8 (stable). Do you think I would be able to acclimatise the discus to my natural tap water or should I consider mixing in RO water to help soften it. I am only asking I have read my water readings would be ok to keep discus in as long as I am not intending to breed (which I am not). Does anyone have any info that might help me decide on what to do?

Thanks

The first thing I do when receiving fish is check parameters especially ph ,if you go from your suppliers ph of 6.5 to your ph of 8 and just plop them in your tank your tank your gonna kill your fish you're gonna what to do a slow acclimation

Jeanne

[Second Hand Pat]

I agree with Liz on the drop and plop. When fish are shipped overnight the ph in the bag water drops into the 6 range due to the ammonia in the water. The lower ph renders the 6 or lower ph harmless to the fish. When you receive the fish carefully cut open the bags without allowing air to enter the bag. If air enters the bag it allows the ph to raise and makes the ammonia harmful to the fish which could result to ammonia burns to the ends of the fins etc. Drain the bag water into a bucket and gently ease the fish into the QT.
Pat

[danotaylor]

The problem with slow acclimation from low pH to high pH is that the ammonia in the bag water becomes more and more toxic as the pH climbs. This toxic potential is amplified with fish that have been shipped and have been in a small amount of water for long periods of time. I copied this from a scholarly article online;
Ammonia is toxic to aquatic life and toxicity is affected by pH. Ammonia-nitrogen (NH3-N) has a more toxic form at high pH and a less toxic form at low pH, un-ionized ammonia (NH3) and ionized ammonia (NH4+), respectively. In addition, ammonia toxicity increases as temperature rises.
This is the reason Liz (and now Pat as well) suggests, as do many other very experienced discus keepers, to do the "drop and plop" method. A 1 time experience of potential pH shock is less harmful to the fish, especially the gills, than an ever increasing exposure to ammonia toxicity during a slow acclimation. Each to his own of course, but almost all of the peeps that have been around here for the long haul use the plop & drop method based in an educated assessment of the risks involved in acclimating new discus.

[Willie]

...I have kept tropical fish for a while and now am going into specifically discus keeping....

Discus will readily acclimate to your water conditions. What you really need to think through is how to get set up for large, frequent water changes. Discus is not like most tropical fish. Without water changes, that fish is not going to survive.

Willie

[danotaylor]

To add to Pat's response Jeanne, Liz specifically mentioned that a "1 time" large change in pH is much less harmful than pH swings, which is why she ages her water for changes. After the initial plop and drop she dials it in so as not to stress her discus with her usual wc routine.
You are hinting at hypocrisy, but are way off base.
The excerpt I posted is from a scholars article in the subject of ammonia toxicity and pH...it is scientific fact, common knowledge even to those who have looked into. Many article confirming it as truth. Also confirmed by peoples real life experiences.
You do what you do, no prob, even to share your thoughts and opinions is sweet as, that's what forum life is for, but when you question the motives of the people that make this site as great as it is because they agree with each other and not you, that's a bit out of line...

[Andy83]

I agree with Liz on the drop and plop. When fish are shipped overnight the ph in the bag water drops into the 6 range due to the ammonia in the water. The lower ph renders the 6 or lower ph harmless to the fish. When you receive the fish carefully cut open the bags without allowing air to enter the bag. If air enters the bag it allows the ph to raise and makes the ammonia harmful to the fish which could result to ammonia burns to the ends of the fins etc. Drain the bag water into a bucket and gently ease the fish into the QT.
Pat

Hi Pat,

Thanks for your reply, hope my question hasn’t caused any friction here as that was not in any way my intention, I genuinely want to do things right and appreciate any advice. So what I seem to here is that in general my water parameters will be ok for discus with a ph of 8 and gh of 13, but obviously the initial change from the lower 6.5 to my ph of 8 is the trickier point. Although again from what I have learned from this discussion is going from a lower to higher is less of a problem that going high to low. So taking your advice placing them directly into my water with the ‘plop and drop’ method is better than a slower acclimatisation. Then once acclimatised my water parameters will be ok going forward.

That sound about right?

Thanks
Andy

[Andy83]

Discus will readily acclimate to your water conditions. What you really need to think through is how to get set up for large, frequent water changes. Discus is not like most tropical fish. Without water changes, that fish is not going to survive.

Willie

Hi Willie, thanks for your response. I have done quite a bit of research before making the decision to keep discus and yes frequent water changes are a must, a must I am happy to do as the reward will be great for keeping the discus in tip top condition. Could I ask what water change routine you have? All advice is appreciated.

Thanks
Andy

[peewee1]

Hi, first post here and hoping someone can help me sift through all the different info I have received.

I have kept tropical fish for a while and now am going into specifically discus keeping. I have some discus in mind and the breeder has kept them in GH 3 with a Ph of 6.5. My water is Gh 13 KH 8 and PH 8 (stable). Do you think I would be able to acclimatise the discus to my natural tap water or should I consider mixing in RO water to help soften it. I am only asking I have read my water readings would be ok to keep discus in as long as I am not intending to breed (which I am not). Does anyone have any info that might help me decide on what to do?

Thanks

As you now see there are a lot of opinions about how to raise Discus. Here is logic. What no one knows is what the water conditions are at the breeder level. Said breeder sends to the seller fish in breeder water, which could be hard water. On arrival the seller immediately transfers to their holding tanks and to the water conditions of those tanks. There is a good chance that the breeder and the seller do not have exactly the same water but somehow the fish survive the sudden change. Next you buy a fish which is sent to you packaged in the seller's water which in turn does not march your water. Knowing this what I do is open the bag, pour the fish into a pan, net the fish, and then put it into the tank that it will call home. It works. I have done this 3 times. Most recent was yesterday. Hard water is okay for Discus just be sure about ammonia level.

[danotaylor]

You got it Andy! There is numerous successful keepers of discus in the SD community that keep there fish in hard water, some even with pH >8!
Breeding in hard water is different cause the hardness causes egg casing to be difficult for the sperm to penetrate/fertilize. People in hard water areas typically use RO or an RO mix to create the correct water for breeding.
Are you planning to raise juvenile discus or buy adults? Some folks do 75%+ daily regardless of size, . Larger fish are more tolerant of higher nitrates, but the goal should be to keep your nitrates a max 10 before each water change. Understanding your bioload is a critical factor; stock density and feeding regime have a direct correlation to waste and increased bacterial loads...water changes should be routine to keep both in check for happy healthy discus!
All the best to you sir. Keep us informed of your progress please :thumbsup:

[Andy83]

You got it Andy! There is numerous successful keepers of discus in the SD community that keep there fish in hard water, some even with pH >8!
Breeding in hard water is different cause the hardness causes egg casing to be difficult for the sperm to penetrate/fertilize. People in hard water areas typically use RO or an RO mix to create the correct water for breeding.
Are you planning to raise juvenile discus or buy adults? Some folks do 75%+ daily regardless of size, . Larger fish are more tolerant of higher nitrates, but the goal should be to keep your nitrates a max 10 before each water change. Understanding your bioload is a critical factor; stock density and feeding regime have a direct correlation to waste and increased bacterial loads...water changes should be routine to keep both in check for happy healthy discus!
All the best to you sir. Keep us informed of your progress please :thumbsup:

Hi, thanks for you comments. The discus the breeder has currently are about 4” so about 10cm. I am used to keeping track of my ammonia, nitrite, nitrate levels etc and will keep keeping a very close eye on them, especially at the beginning while I am settling them in. As for feeding regimes, I am continuing to read all about that as don’t want to over feed and cause spikes. Quite a lot to take in but I am finding it very interesting and really looking forward to keeping these beautiful fish.

[LizStreithorst]

We don't usually fight here Andy. Sometimes it happens but rarely. It sounds like you're on your way to successful Discus keeping.

[Oxboy]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for your reply, hope my question hasn’t caused any friction here as that was not in any way my intention, I genuinely want to do things right and appreciate any advice. So what I seem to here is that in general my water parameters will be ok for discus with a ph of 8 and gh of 13, but obviously the initial change from the lower 6.5 to my ph of 8 is the trickier point. Although again from what I have learned from this discussion is going from a lower to higher is less of a problem that going high to low. So taking your advice placing them directly into my water with the ‘plop and drop’ method is better than a slower acclimatisation. Then once acclimatised my water parameters will be ok going forward.

That sound about right?

Thanks
Andy

Look on the bright side of super hard water, Andy -- you don't have to worry about breeding aggression. ;)

[Willie]

Hi Willie, thanks for your response. I have done quite a bit of research before making the decision to keep discus and yes frequent water changes are a must, a must I am happy to do as the reward will be great for keeping the discus in tip top condition. Could I ask what water change routine you have? All advice is appreciated.

Thanks
Andy

Hi Andy;

I make 100% W/C daily with conditioned water. I do this because my objective is to produce show quality discus for competition. This is the only method I know to get 7", sometimes 7"+, fish. My water must be conditioned because we have very long winters here (Minnesota) and tap water is supersaturated with gas in the winter. After 24 hours of conditioning (aeration), I've never had discus react badly to large water changes. I consider this approach absolutely critical with 3" - 4" fish to prevent stunting.

Willie

[Oxboy]

Hi Andy;

I make 100% W/C daily with conditioned water. I do this because my objective is to produce show quality discus for competition. This is the only method I know to get 7", sometimes 7"+, fish. My water must be conditioned because we have very long winters here (Minnesota) and tap water is supersaturated with gas in the winter. After 24 hours of conditioning (aeration), I've never had discus react badly to large water changes. I consider this approach absolutely critical with 3" - 4" fish to prevent stunting.

Willie

So the takeaway is anything short of 100% WC daily will result in stunted fish? That's a tough mandate.

[LizStreithorst]

No. Willie raises some beautiful fish but he's rather obsessive when it comes to WC. I only do that with little babies that I'm loading up with food. Depend on age and stocking level I generally do 40% to 50% daily. And if I'm exhausted from working out in the sun or my back gets to hurting badly I have upon occasion skipped a day.

[bluelagoon]

Hi Andy;

I make 100% W/C daily with conditioned water. I do this because my objective is to produce show quality discus for competition. This is the only method I know to get 7", sometimes 7"+, fish. My water must be conditioned because we have very long winters here (Minnesota) and tap water is supersaturated with gas in the winter. After 24 hours of conditioning (aeration), I've never had discus react badly to large water changes. I consider this approach absolutely critical with 3" - 4" fish to prevent stunting.

Willie

Willie, you do raise beautiful healthy looking discus; your husbandry and large WC's really pays off well.

[Disgirl]

Hi Andy, I am just reading this thread for the first time. I will be able to add my 2 cents here. Have not read each post above though. I am a very long time Discus keeper. 30+ yrs. I have always had high ph (over 9), and always had "liquid rock" water. I don't even do water tests. I change 50% of water each day, that is all.
When I get new fish I definitely do plop and drop. I float the unopened bag to equalize temps for about 15 min. Then I open the bag, reach into the water very carefully and gently cup my hand around the fish, and plop right into the tank. I go from 6.something ph right into my 9+ ph water. I have never ever had a problem. I just want the new fish out of the old dirty water and right into my healthy, warm water.
I don't breed my discus, if they lay eggs, they are gone soon as food for the others. I want to repeat my often given advice. Clean warm water, excellent foods, are the basics. I use only large sponge filters on a powerful air pump. And 2 good quality heaters.
Barb

[Disgirl]

Hi Andy;

I make 100% W/C daily with conditioned water. I do this because my objective is to produce show quality discus for competition. This is the only method I know to get 7", sometimes 7"+, fish. My water must be conditioned because we have very long winters here (Minnesota) and tap water is supersaturated with gas in the winter. After 24 hours of conditioning (aeration), I've never had discus react badly to large water changes. I consider this approach absolutely critical with 3" - 4" fish to prevent stunting.

Willie

I forgot to add in my post above:
I add tap water right into my tank, from a water safe hose, right out of the tap, with the temp. made to match the tank water. I add Safe powder right into the tank as the water goes in. 50-75% every day. This way has grown out my Stendker Flachen Discus from Hans, from 2" babies to the 5-7" fish I now have. I don't show them, they are my pets, so 5" or more is fine with me. Health and beauty are my requirements. Good luck with yours! And listen to all Willie says, he knows Discus for sure!
Barb

[Willie]

So the takeaway is anything short of 100% WC daily will result in stunted fish? That's a tough mandate.

Not what I said. Anything less with SMALL fish can prevent stunting. Stunting is defined as not reaching its genetic potential. All animals, fish, mammal, people, are most sensitive to stunting when young. We've demonstrated that right here a year ago when Brew organized the grow out competition. Those people who did the largest, most frequent water changes in larger tanks produced fry bigger than everyone else within a 4-week period. The impact drops as fish increase, but it's still there. Other than runts, any adult discus < 6" is stunted.

Willie

[brewmaster15]

Hello all,

I have cleaned up this thread abit. I am a very big supporter of people hashing out their various opinions on how we keep these fish best in polite and mutually respectful ways. Dialogue is important when ever differences of opinion occur. However, I have zero tolerance for situations where members disrespect this forum's management team. The Forum is here today because of their help. If someone has an issue with something it can always be discussed privately by Pm. Its been awhile since I have had to post a reminder like this but unfortunately its needed here.

My apologies Andy for your thread taking a few wrong turns.

Thanks,
Al

[Andy83]

Thanks for your reply, I focused on the information provided from various members and it has been very helpful. I look forward to keeping active on this forum as I can see it will be a very good place for knowledge about all things discus. I already know the importance of water changes but since reading through a few more posts I have bought various pieces of equipment to get me ready to do many watered changes in an efficient way. Have had lots of parcels arrive lately :). Anyway will keep everyone posted on how it goes when my discus arrive next week.

[Oxboy]

I forgot to add in my post above:
I add tap water right into my tank, from a water safe hose, right out of the tap, with the temp. made to match the tank water. I add Safe powder right into the tank as the water goes in. 50-75% every day. This way has grown out my Stendker Flachen Discus from Hans, from 2" babies to the 5-7" fish I now have. I don't show them, they are my pets, so 5" or more is fine with me. Health and beauty are my requirements. Good luck with yours! And listen to all Willie says, he knows Discus for sure!
Barb

I am new to discus but I follow this M.O. too....except for the WC schedule (I am at 50% 3x/wk).

People in the fish trade often wrongly associate high pH lockstep with rock hard water. Although they often correlate, you can have "soft" water with high pH and "hard" water with low pH. The better easily-measurable indicators IMO for hard water are kH, TDS and your water supplier's report. Here in Las Vegas, kH and TDS are sky high and my pH is pushing 8.0. For me, like Barb, the tap can go right in the tank because aging won't reduce the pH and there's nothing to gas off. In fact, I could pour a jug of vinegar in my tank and the pH wouldn't move .00001%. :) I joke a bit but you get the point. I only kept africans for the longest time because I thought Discus couldn't live/thrive in my water. Now I have my 2-inchers growing like hotcakes (pun intended) in my QT and my 4-5 inchers in the main tank doing fine.

[Andy83]

Hi, thought I would give an update. Have had my discus for about 3 weeks now and they are doing great! I did exactly what people advised with the plop and drop method and they were great. Took a few day for them to get settled into their new tank but I kept the lights off and then gradually brought light into the mix. I do a 50% water change daily and use safe which is working out great too. I bought a pump for the water changes and really only takes 30mins a day for the whole process. I do nothing to the PH of my water but I do age it for 24hours with a heater in my water storage so the water temp stays the same while doing water changes.

So all good and loving them!

Thanks all for your help.

[Willie]

...Willie raises some beautiful fish but he's rather obsessive when it comes to WC...

Correction, I used to be obsessive. Back then, I had 75 minutes to spend in my fishroom before heading out to work every morning. Now I'm retired and totally out of control!!!

I need a better adjective. :o

[LizStreithorst]

Obsessed.

[Willie]

;)