Discus died after water change.

[Johnny95132]

After doing a routine weekly water change of 90%, I found three discus dead. This w/c was done straight from the tap, and treated with seachem safe. I had done straight from the tap before without much harm, except for discus being paralyzed. Before they died, the discus were either at the bottom immobilized or at the surface gasping for air. Could this be a case of chlorine poisoning or toxic air bubbles? Also, I set the temp on the replacement water a bit too high as it was 88 degrees. This was a difference of 8 degrees versus the original water. Feeling a bit frustrated right now to be honest so sorry for the hastily constructed post. I lost my favorite three fish out of my seven, one being a select grade Forrest Red Eagle. He was so round and deeply colored.

[jeep]

My guess is either ph shock or chloramines. If the temp went up too fast, this could have been an issue as well. This is why I age my water, and if I use straight tap I don't go over 50% in summer and 35% in winter...

[BrendanJ23]

90% is massive for straight tap. When do you add your searches safe? I bet it is a mix of temp/ph/chlorine that took them. I’d try doing more frequent wcs of a lesser amount and/or with aged water. Sorry for your loss.

[Johnny95132]

I see, it could be pH shock since chloramines should have been eliminated by the addition of safe. I always did large water changes since they were more efficient use of time, as I could do one single w/c rarely as opposed to multiple small water changes. From now on, I'll be sticking to w/c's of below 50% to be safe. And I also killed a batch of boesemani rainbows due to a large w/c too.

[danotaylor]

Dang mate, sorry to hear, that really sucks

[peewee1]

As you suspected, Johnny, this could be a mystery without knowing the water makeup. I myself use tap daily for past 2 years with Prime added at the time of changing. I have city water system and wonder if your system had by chance flushed or cleaned their systems. Brian is smart about these things and his reasoning seems logical. The only difference between he and I is the method of our daily water change. While sad if the remaining four are doing fine the good news might be that Kenny just got a new shipment of fish after months of none because of covids. Instead of grabbing for the nearest bottle of Jim Beam perhaps grab the phone and order? Kenny is the kind of guy on hearing your sad story might just pick out a few of his finest from his remaining stock and get you back in business.

[Megalodon]

Seachem Safe neutralizes 0.52 mg/L chloramine at the recommended dose. Compare this with 3.2 mg/L for Prime. Typical chloramine levels in the US are 2-2.5 mg/L...

[fljones3]

Johnny, I would suggest also that you reduce the WC from 90% weekly to perhaps, at minimal, 3x a week 30% WC. Keep a watch on your water parameters and add the appropriate amount of Prime/Safe with your WC. If there are water issues that would "shock" the fish much less. I am sorry for your lost.

[Megalodon]

A few years ago, Seachem inexplicably changed the dosage of Safe without changing the formula. The dose was reduced more than six-fold.

If you heated the replacement water to anywhere near tank temperature, it would be degassed so it wasn't gas emboli.

[14Discus]

Johny95132,

So sorry to hear of your loss. My Red Eagles (from Kenny) are my favorites too and losing them would be devastating to me as well. I’ve made mistakes in the past and currently do WCs in a specific way.
I never change more than abt 60% of the water. My replacement water is aged, aerated, and set to one degree F above the tank temp. IMHO, changing nearly all the water is risky as a whole unless I had several aged barrels of fresh water. Changing too much at once, and some will disagree, is working on a precipice as I see it. I don’t trust my finger gauge of temp, my water as a whole, and my adding chemicals to neutralize gases. Aged water can be tested, is nearly the same as what’s being replaced, and the way to go as I see it. I even test my aged water for KH, GH, and sometimes PH. I don’t like to take chances. Just my thoughts.

[peewee1]

All fish, be they fresh or salt, like in constant water change in some way, shape, or fashion. Unfortunate for aquarium fish who also benefit from constant water changing because of their confinement are not afforded that luxury. So we are obligated to provide it for them. Seems to me a large water change could shock their systems thereby causing them stress and then sickness or death. Pretty basic really. Keeping this in mind I change a little amount every day for a total change of 100% on average per week. You know this works because you have read other postings elsewhere about vacations and fish. Fish can live for days or even during a hobbyists entire vacation. One week or maybe two weeks. I have over the past 2 years religiously changed water daily in small amounts of tap water with Prime added. I siphon into a bucket about 15%. Empty the bucket into the garden. Refill the bucket with tap water using a shower head in order to infuse lots of oxygen into the water while at the same time busting up the micro bubbles. I use my finger to approximate the temperature of the water that went into the bucket, add Prime, and then poor the water from the bucket into the tank. The fish love this because right away they think that this also included a meal so I feed them. I try to change the water about dinner time. Sometime I will go to 30% change one day but maybe the next none at all. And that is for the community tank.

For the breeding tank I change more percent about 20% every other day. I do that because sometimes a combination of water and temperature change will trigger a spawning activity. I do believe that only one time I ran into a problem and that was when I first set up the breeder. I filled the tank, let it sit for two days while it was getting to the temperature that I wanted it at. I put in the fish and pretty soon they began scratching. I thought because the water was too new for them so I added medication and salt About a week later they stopped scratching and began cleaning the heater for spawning. Apparently everyone has their own way and it all seems to work which means that the discus are more forgiving with this than we give them credit for.

[Oxboy]

What causes micro bubbles?

[Megalodon]

What causes micro bubbles?

Dissolved gases coming out of solution. In aquariums, it's usually due to heating cold water. The bubbles you see aren't dangerous. It's bubbles that formed concurrently in the bloodstream of the fish that are dangerous.

[peewee1]

What causes micro bubbles?

If the water in your water system is delivered with high pressure, when you let that water out by tap it's at a lower pressure. Resulting in the release of dissolved gas which turns into tiny bubbles.

[Iminit]

My input here is that since you’ve been doing this regularly and this is your first problem. The town more than likely cleaned the pipes. They added something to clean out the piping system. They do this routinely and most times you’d never know. I never change 90% unless I’m moving the tank. I also use tap water. I don’t use any additives I filter through an under counter filter first than into the tank. Sorry for your loss.

[Willie]

I use conditioned water all the time and make 100% water changes daily. This applies to adult discus tanks and juvenile discus tanks (and the angelfish tanks as well.) In the winter in Minneapolis, water comes into the house at 35F so it has very high levels of saturated gases. Even going through the heater does not release enough gases and produces the 'bends' when I change water. So everything goes through 24-hours of aeration before use. This is not necessary in the summer, but I do it anyway because the system is already set up and requires no further work.

Making large water changes is not the problem. Not conditioning your water is.

[Megalodon]

If the water in your water system is delivered with high pressure, when you let that water out by tap it's at a lower pressure. Resulting in the release of dissolved gas which turns into tiny bubbles.

Why don't I see bubbles forming instantly in a glass of water?

[Megalodon]

My input here is that since you’ve been doing this regularly and this is your first problem. The town more than likely cleaned the pipes. They added something to clean out the piping system. They do this routinely and most times you’d never know. I never change 90% unless I’m moving the tank. I also use tap water. I don’t use any additives I filter through an under counter filter first than into the tank. Sorry for your loss.

OP said they'd been paralyzed in the past.

[jeep]

This is so true!!!


So everything goes through 24-hours of aeration before use. This is not necessary in the summer, but I do it anyway because the system is already set up and requires no further work...... Making large water changes is not the problem. Not conditioning your water is.

[Oxboy]

If the water in your water system is delivered with high pressure, when you let that water out by tap it's at a lower pressure. Resulting in the release of dissolved gas which turns into tiny bubbles.

What is the best way to avoid microbubbles if you fill straight from the tap?

[peewee1]

What is the best way to avoid microbubbles if you fill straight from the tap?

That would be the purpose of Prime. Two drops per gallon.

[captainandy]

Hypoxemia. When you use straight tap with prime you must make sure that the tank has well circulated and oxygenated water.

[peewee1]

Why don't I see bubbles forming instantly in a glass of water?

I had read once that the dirtier the glass the more bubbles will form. The understanding was that the bubble forms on the impurity inside of the glass. So a sterile glass may not develop bubbles, is what I surmised.

[Johnny95132]

OP said they'd been paralyzed in the past.

Yeah, I've made the mistake of changing too much water at once too many times. Believe me, this isn't the first tank full of discus I've killed, as crazy as that sounds. Before I lost even more fish (around 14) due to my rash decision to change the whole tank water. That loss was even greater than this one in terms of money. I lost around 15 discus at the grand sum of $800 versus $300 in this one. Both losses could be attributed to the same problem- too much water changed at once. I'm kicking myself in the foot for not having learned from my past mistakes. Isn't there a saying along the lines of "repeating the same thing while expecting different results is the definition of insanity"?
I've should've known that such drastic w/c's would've hurt the discus being the sensitive creatures they are. Next time, I'll go with smaller w/c's spread out through the week vs the one huge water change.

[Johnny95132]

Johny95132,

So sorry to hear of your loss. My Red Eagles (from Kenny) are my favorites too and losing them would be devastating to me as well. I’ve made mistakes in the past and currently do WCs in a specific way.
I never change more than abt 60% of the water. My replacement water is aged, aerated, and set to one degree F above the tank temp. IMHO, changing nearly all the water is risky as a whole unless I had several aged barrels of fresh water. Changing too much at once, and some will disagree, is working on a precipice as I see it. I don’t trust my finger gauge of temp, my water as a whole, and my adding chemicals to neutralize gases. Aged water can be tested, is nearly the same as what’s being replaced, and the way to go as I see it. I even test my aged water for KH, GH, and sometimes PH. I don’t like to take chances. Just my thoughts.

Thanks for the condolences. It does really sting to lose the Red Eagle as it sure has nice coloration. The deep scarlet red made all the other color discus pale in comparison. Man, I was hoping to enter it in the NADA 2021 Las Vegas show.

I would use a water barrel in the future for water changes. But I'd don't think I would be that diligent to test the water every time I change water. I can't fathom using the API master kit every time I add water. Do you use the test strips instead?

[Johnny95132]

As you suspected, Johnny, this could be a mystery without knowing the water makeup. I myself use tap daily for past 2 years with Prime added at the time of changing. I have city water system and wonder if your system had by chance flushed or cleaned their systems. Brian is smart about these things and his reasoning seems logical. The only difference between he and I is the method of our daily water change. While sad if the remaining four are doing fine the good news might be that Kenny just got a new shipment of fish after months of none because of covids. Instead of grabbing for the nearest bottle of Jim Beam perhaps grab the phone and order? Kenny is the kind of guy on hearing your sad story might just pick out a few of his finest from his remaining stock and get you back in business.

Yeah, I thought about the possibility of the city "cleaning out their pipes" in the past. I've done large w/c's in the past usually w/o problems, but twice the fish have been completely knocked out afterwards like this case. I wonder if they do add massive doses of chlorine to clean out the water especially with the surge in coronavirus cases here. Btw, I live in San Jose, which has had pretty large number of virus cases. I've been tempted to call the water company to check what's up with the water treatment. But I'm not that diligent to keep track of precise water readings.

I'll definitely contact Kenny when his next shipment's posted; I'm already longing for my discus. But part of me is concerned that I can't keep these fish alive for long. Maybe I should stick to something more hardier such as goldfish.

[Johnny95132]

A few years ago, Seachem inexplicably changed the dosage of Safe without changing the formula. The dose was reduced more than six-fold.

If you heated the replacement water to anywhere near tank temperature, it would be degassed so it wasn't gas emboli.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'd never knew that Safe was that less effective in neutralizing chloramines versus prime. I'd previously thought that too much Safe would be toxic, therefore I would purposely underdose. This probably led to incomplete neutralization of chlorine then. The funny thing is I had all my "sudden deaths" after switching from prime to safe. All just to save a few bucks- which cost me major $$ in the end. I learned an invaluable lesson from this though, that spending more for quality is better- whether it's spending more for Prime or buying from quality suppliers.

[peewee1]

Yeah, I thought about the possibility of the city "cleaning out their pipes" in the past. I've done large w/c's in the past usually w/o problems, but twice the fish have been completely knocked out afterwards like this case. I wonder if they do add massive doses of chlorine to clean out the water especially with the surge in coronavirus cases here. Btw, I live in San Jose, which has had pretty large number of virus cases. I've been tempted to call the water company to check what's up with the water treatment. But I'm not that diligent to keep track of precise water readings.

I'll definitely contact Kenny when his next shipment's posted; I'm already longing for my discus. But part of me is concerned that I can't keep these fish alive for long. Maybe I should stick to something more hardier such as goldfish.

If you buy healthy fish, find your comfort level with water changing, tap with Prime and you would be okay. Maybe you are trying to hard? Discus are hardy fish if one gives them a change.

[Oxboy]

Hypoxemia. When you use straight tap with prime you must make sure that the tank has well circulated and oxygenated water.

I add the Prime into the tank then python the tap right into the tank. No good?

[Megalodon]

I had read once that the dirtier the glass the more bubbles will form. The understanding was that the bubble forms on the impurity inside of the glass. So a sterile glass may not develop bubbles, is what I surmised.

I've seen it happen in hotels but never at home. And only with hot water, IIRC. It comes out cloudy and takes a few seconds to clear.

It's also not concentrated on the surface of the glass.

[Megalodon]

Hypoxemia. When you use straight tap with prime you must make sure that the tank has well circulated and oxygenated water.

Dare I ask why?

[Shan_Evolved]

Johnny, I wouldn't kick yourself in the foot and 100% blame the large water change or yourself. Take all the advice and recommendations from us with moderation. There is always a chance everything you hear here might not be the case for you at all. I've been through hell doing everything single thing I could to my best advice and and months later there is still no proof of what exactly went wrong. There are theories and strong pieces of evidence to suggest multiple faults, but the fact of the matter is you will never know.

The best bet you have is to take the wisdom from the wonderful people here and apply it moderately to the best of your ability. And trust your instincts.

While I myself used to do 90% pwc daily, the next time I get discus I plan to do a maximum of 50% and that's every other day. The truth of the matter I've learned is that a stable PH will come a long way. That's the one thing I've learned that all my advice I've been given has connected to.

In my case I consider the low KH to have affected my PH, and overtime the stress became too much without me realizing it. Reading through your posts, I would highly recommend an aging barrel and reducing your water changes to 50% or less. For the first couple days to a few weeks, I would check your PH, KH, perhaps even chlorine levels of your tap everyday. Trust your instincts. If you feel chlorine is an issue, test for it. If you feel PH is an issue like I did, test for it. Be relentless in your testing for a minute. You can let off once you've gotten it down so don't get intimidated by the tediousness of testing a lot. It's just until you get everything down to a science.

And remember, don't 100% bet on a specific thing you hear here, always keep your mind open and trust your instincts to a fault.

[BrendanJ23]

That would be the purpose of Prime. Two drops per gallon.

Prime has no bearing on micro bubbles. The water needs to be aerated to gas off the co2, thus avoiding micro bubbles.

[bluelagoon]

Water coming in under pressure is full of carbon dioxide and very little oxygen. The discus were gasping at the surface. The large water change without being conditioned suffocated them. There was no O2 in that large WC. It needs to be aged and aerated if you doing large WC's not just for a PH swing.

[kev1310]

As others have said, 90% is too big a change if you're using water straight from the tap even if it's temperature matched. I doubt that a Ph swing, chlorine or chloramines were the issue, fish are pretty resistant to them unless present in high doses and seeing as you dosed that makes it even more unlikely. As captainandy pointed out, it's more likely hypoxia, the fresh water was high in CO2 and low in O2, that's why you need to aerate for 24 hours before use. During this time the Ph usually rises, this is the effect of the CO2 being driven off. If you're making changes straight from the tap you're better limiting it to 20-25% to avoid the issue.

[bluelagoon]

Plus..to add..The water will hold less CO2 if the ph is greater than 8.5 from the tap. So some folks might get away with large WC's from the tap. This doesn't happen often because most folks don't use a high ph water for discus.

[jeep]

Plus..to add..The water will hold less CO2 if the ph is greater than 8.5 from the tap. So some folks might get away with large WC's from the tap. This doesn't happen often because most folks don't use a high ph water for discus.

This is why it gets me when someone says they do things a certain way, therefor everyone can. The truth is, everyone's water is different!

[Megalodon]

As others have said, 90% is too big a change if you're using water straight from the tap even if it's temperature matched. I doubt that a Ph swing, chlorine or chloramines were the issue, fish are pretty resistant to them unless present in high doses and seeing as you dosed that makes it even more unlikely. As captainandy pointed out, it's more likely hypoxia, the fresh water was high in CO2 and low in O2, that's why you need to aerate for 24 hours before use. During this time the Ph usually rises, this is the effect of the CO2 being driven off. If you're making changes straight from the tap you're better limiting it to 20-25% to avoid the issue.

How does this explain why OP's problems began after a switch from Prime to Safe?

This is almost certainly due to Safe's dosage being too low to do a 90% water change.

My chloramine levels are well below the national average at ~1 mg/L. Safe at the recommended dose removes about half of that and if I did my typical 95% water change I would have around 0.5 mg/l chloramine. That's well above the levels known to cause acute toxicity.


Water coming in under pressure is full of carbon dioxide and very little oxygen. The discus were gasping at the surface. The large water change without being conditioned suffocated them. There was no O2 in that large WC. It needs to be aged and aerated if you doing large WC's not just for a PH swing.

The last time I checked, my tap water was at 120% oxygen saturation.


This is why it gets me when someone says they do things a certain way, therefor everyone can. The truth is, everyone's water is different!

Dissolved gases shouldn't be too different since drinking water spends a lot of time in open basins during the treatment process at atmospheric pressure. Same atmosphere, same dissolved gases.


The most bizarre case was one I read on Facebook where someone switched from Prime to Safe and a whole bunch of fish died quickly. He contacted Seachem and his water treatment plant and somehow reached the conclusion that it was because radon in his water decayed into lead which poisoned his fish because Prime "binds" heavy metals and Safe doesn't. I did the math and the the amount of radon was like 3.5 trillion times too low to decay into a toxic level of lead. The simplest explanation was that the inadequate recommended dose of Safe killed again.

[kev1310]

Just found this:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-do-bubbles-form-if-a/

What you don't want is this dissolved gas coming out in the blood stream of the fish which is what happens when divers get the bends or decompression sickness. It's quite possible that Safe needs a stronger dose than Prime for treating chlorine and chloramine, but large scale water changes without ageing water first will always be a risk regardless of which is used.

[bluelagoon]

How does this explain why OP's problems began after a switch from Prime to Safe?

This is almost certainly due to Safe's dosage being too low to do a 90% water change.

My chloramine levels are well below the national average at ~1 mg/L. Safe at the recommended dose removes about half of that and if I did my typical 95% water change I would have around 0.5 mg/l chloramine. That's well above the levels known to cause acute toxicity.



The last time I checked, my tap water was at 120% oxygen saturation.



Dissolved gases shouldn't be too different since drinking water spends a lot of time in open basins during the treatment process at atmospheric pressure. Same atmosphere, same dissolved gases.


The most bizarre case was one I read on Facebook where someone switched from Prime to Safe and a whole bunch of fish died quickly. He contacted Seachem and his water treatment plant and somehow reached the conclusion that it was because radon in his water decayed into lead which poisoned his fish because Prime "binds" heavy metals and Safe doesn't. I did the math and the the amount of radon was like 3.5 trillion times too low to decay into a toxic level of lead. The simplest explanation was that the inadequate recommended dose of Safe killed again.
https://www.chewy.com/app/product-question/1233465?productId=131189&answerSort=MOST_HELPFUL&pageNumber=1#:~:text=Seachem%20Prime%20is%20a%20li quid,removed%20by%20th...more

[Megalodon]

https://www.chewy.com/app/product-question/1233465?productId=131189&answerSort=MOST_HELPFUL&pageNumber=1#:~:text=Seachem%20Prime%20is%20a%20li quid,removed%20by%20th...more

I don't see anything relevant at that URL.

[bluelagoon]

I don't see anything relevant at that URL.

Same chemicals are used in both, one dry one liquid from Seachem. Don't see how I posted that one. Must of had too many windows open and hit the wrong key.

[Willie]

...The last time I checked, my tap water was at 120% oxygen saturation...

I recall that maximum dissolved levels of oxygen in water at tank temperatures was 8 - 9 ppm. If your reading is 120% oxygen saturation, you would still max out at 8 - 9 ppm. The additional 20% reflects supersaturation, a phenomenon where oxygen would bubble out and causes harm to fish, divers, etc. Fish kills occur at < 4 ppm, which is why I keep a wave maker going in larger tanks where dead spots may occur. In comparison, land animals breath 20% oxygen or 20,000 ppm.

[Megalodon]

I recall that maximum dissolved levels of oxygen in water at tank temperatures was 8 - 9 ppm. If your reading is 120% oxygen saturation, you would still max out at 8 - 9 ppm. The additional 20% reflects supersaturation, a phenomenon where oxygen would bubble out and causes harm to fish, divers, etc. Fish kills occur at < 4 ppm, which is why I keep a wave maker going in larger tanks where dead spots may occur. In comparison, land animals breath 20% oxygen or 20,000 ppm.

I looked and can't find the data log for that session. Maybe I didn't have it recording.

Anyway, the meter reads in mg/L and converts to %SAT based on temperature and barometric pressure. If 100% saturation was 8-9 mg/L then it would have been above 8-9 mg/L to be 120%. I've seen readings over 20 mg/L and 300% saturation.

IIRC, it took about 24 hours for oxygen levels to decline to 100% despite heating and mixing.