Newbie Discus Tank

[Leigh Ann]

Hello! My name is Leigh Ann and I am starting a tank journal here as a total discus newbie. I live in Brazil so acquiring some great specimens shouldn't be a problem. I have been a hobbyist on and off since I was a kid. I've kept everything from reef tanks to nano betta tanks. I've kept planted aquariums of various sizes.

Since I have no previous experience with discus, I've been reading this forum extensively. The introductory video posted in the beginner forum was awesome! I've also been watching videos from the Jack Wattley and Joey DIY Youtube channels.

The tank is NOT set up yet...it's on it's way. Sorry I have no pictures but they'll come. I wanted to start seeking feedback and advice as early as possible. Failure to prepare means preparing for failure! But I do have the dimensions...I work in metric, hope that's okay. I live in a small apartment so space is at a premium..I also have a husband who thinks this tank size is insane. Poor dear, he has no idea!

200 Liter Aquarium (52ish gallons)
1 meter x 40 cm x 50cm

Decor is going to be biotope-ISH. Basically driftwood, a few botanicals and the thinnest coverage on the bottom of gravel...as close to bare bottom without being bare bottom. It's going to be pretty sparsely decorated with a tint to the water. Some palms in background and a small scatter of leaves in the front. The botanicals are a "maybe". I'm going to run the tank with some cardinal tetras first to see how I can manage the water chemistry with all that going on. If I can maintain stability after a few water changes and feel confident, I will go ahead and add the discus. If not...botanicals are out and it'll just be driftwood, gravel and rooibos tea for tint. I like the idea of some pothos roots dangling in the tank and/or some frogbit floating on the top.

I tested my tap water and the Ph is 7.2 and the hardness is 8Gh. I don't think I will need an RO system with that. I plan on aging my water with an aeration stone prior to each water change. I also plan on running a heater in the aging container too. I plan on a 50 percent water change each week...I hear a range of thoughts on this so I'm not sure if this is enough. I'm prepared to do more....totally get the WNDAWC mentality!

I'm going with a 10 gallon/40 litre sump for filtration. Mechanical will be a sponge (specifics to be determined), biological will be some ceramic bricks and rings. Flirting with the idea of a small refugium with some plants (and live food?) and an aeration stone. I have a pump that advertises 4000 litres per hour (1000 gallons) but I know that's not reality...I am halving the number in my head.

Stock plans are 5 discus. I plan on getting adults, I don't plan on growing anything out. I am not sure on sourcing. I am going to contact Santarem to see who their Brazilian distributor is. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll supply direct to me. I love the look of wild discus and would love that! But I know I could get the same look in captive bred fish. If I can get wilds that are eating granules/flakes, I'll consider it. Also, I'll want to know what water parameters they are being housed in at the dealer. Being in Brazil, I am optimistic I will have a variety of options for stocking.

Dither fish.....it depends. With the tank size, would a small school of cardinals or hatchet fish be too much..like a dozen? I would also like a few cories and a bristlenose pleco if it's not pushing the bioload boundaries. I'd be happy to do more water changes if that means I can get a few tank mates. I'd choose tank mates that are good with higher temperatures and true to a blackwater biotope. Planning to keep the water temp in the late 20's celsius (83-84F)

I want to feed the highest variety of food I can get my hands on. Not sure how to get live blackworms in Sao Paulo yet but I'm looking. Freeze dried, frozen, flakes, granules. I will not be feeding them bloodworms or beefheart. I don't plan on making any food....pre-made and alive only. I plan on feeding twice a day, morning and evening.

My goals are a decent looking, approximate biotope with happy, healthy fish. I have no desire to breed discus. I want to try something new (discus, biotope) for someone who has been in aquarium hobby (off and on) for a while. This tank setup will be VERY slow. The tank arrives next week....I'm giving it weeks to cycle before I add the cardinals. Then it will be another few weeks of tweaking, testing water and refining my maintenance routine before I even think about adding the discus. I'll document the process here but it'll be like watching grass grow.

I welcome any dialogue and can take critical and blunt feedback. Thank you for the great information I have found on this forum so far!

[Willie]

Welcome to the forum and get ready for an adventure. We look forward to those pictures.

The only major concern I have with your description is the use of live black worms. I would urge you to never feed these. Dried or frozen food has the advantage of reduced levels of pathogens and parasites. Your discus will thrive with big water changes and high protein foods. Live food presents a significant danger to discus health.

Good luck, Willie

[peewee1]

You are 100% ready to go and with your plan you will be successful. At your knowlege level you could offer advise to some of the forum newbie. You must have a good source for your fish. Baying all 5 at the same time and if there are no other fish already in the tank there would not be a need to quarantine those 5 fish because the tank is empty at the beginning. The bigger question is you and your husband, Brazil, and coronavirus. Perhaps your time involved in setting up the aquarium and then enjoyment of the discus will keep the both of you inside and safe.

[fljones3]

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to your enjoyment of these amazing fish.
Continue reading through the Discus Basics for Beginners forum section, especially the sticky threads!

[Leigh Ann]

Good tip on the black worms! Thank you. It is also easier for me (-:

[Leigh Ann]

You are 100% ready to go and with your plan you will be successful. At your knowlege level you could offer advise to some of the forum newbie. You must have a good source for your fish. Baying all 5 at the same time and if there are no other fish already in the tank there would not be a need to quarantine those 5 fish because the tank is empty at the beginning. The bigger question is you and your husband, Brazil, and coronavirus. Perhaps your time involved in setting up the aquarium and then enjoyment of the discus will keep the both of you inside and safe.

That is kind of how it all started! I am safe, keeping isolated and taking all precautions. Staring at the same empty wall in my apartment for weeks is how the whole "maybe it's time for an aquarium" thoughts started to brew. Being in Brazil...it was a natural leap to consider a biotope set up with discus! I am a teacher and school is recently out....so I had time to dive into a DEEP hole of research and reading about the topic. The aquarium purchase and specs were all done via text message and exchanging photos. I would have prefered talking to the aquarium shop owners in person but strange times call for creative measures for setting up the tank! I imagine the same will happen for stocking too. I've never purchased fish online before so that will be a new thing for me!

[Leigh Ann]

You are 100% ready to go and with your plan you will be successful. At your knowlege level you could offer advise to some of the forum newbie. You must have a good source for your fish. Baying all 5 at the same time and if there are no other fish already in the tank there would not be a need to quarantine those 5 fish because the tank is empty at the beginning. The bigger question is you and your husband, Brazil, and coronavirus. Perhaps your time involved in setting up the aquarium and then enjoyment of the discus will keep the both of you inside and safe.

Thank you so much! I've learned so much from this forum! A question...If I have a school of "test cardinals" in the tank already, would I need to quarantine the discus before adding them to the tank? My first guess is no because the quarantine is meant to protect the fish already in the tank. This may be harsh but I'm okay to risk the cardinal stock when introducing the discus. I know if I add any companion fish after the discus, I would need to quarantine them. But it's easier to quarantine a few cories or a dwarf pleco instead of 5 discus.

[peewee1]

Thank you so much! I've learned so much from this forum! A question...If I have a school of "test cardinals" in the tank already, would I need to quarantine the discus before adding them to the tank? My first guess is no because the quarantine is meant to protect the fish already in the tank. This may be harsh but I'm okay to risk the cardinal stock when introducing the discus. I know if I add any companion fish after the discus, I would need to quarantine them. But it's easier to quarantine a few cories or a dwarf pleco instead of 5 discus.

I was thinking the same. If the cardinals are not that important why not skip the quarantine. I also thought that because the varieties of wild discus that would be easier for you to obtain from the Amazon than for any of us why not have a few of your native fish? The cost would be lower for you because of the access and lower transportation cost why not have at least a few true wild fish which may of us living elsewhere would give a lot of money to have. Me included.

[Leigh Ann]

I don't get why I can't upload pics so I've included Google Drive links. Trying to figure out this forum as well as the tank (-;. I've attached a photo my current stock of botanicals. I won't be putting ALL of these in the tank, this is just a stockpile. I've been looking at Tannin Aquatics for what is safe. I would love to order from them but I can't from Brazil (import restrictions). Luckily, I am swimming in botanicals when I walk the dog. These are getting a final dry out. I'll boil anything I add to the tank beforehand and will only put in a little bit. I have banane leaves and stems, palm leaves and stems along with a nice little cache of guava leaves. I've also attached a photo of the view from my Sao Paulo balcony....I'm trying to create a bit of the Amazon in a concrete jungle.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vlTxt_myzFfEDQ6rvmAel9NacWGh3Zf8/view?usp=sharing.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SLcvyMnrX9wzP1ZNLqQy1Dp2PTwvEwMF/view?usp=sharing

[dspeers]

Have you read this yet?
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?135809-Al-s-Quarantine-Procedure

The purpose of quarantine is to:
1. Ensure your new fish are not presymptomatic with some disease, thus observation x 1 week
2. Ensure that your new fish are not carrying anything (with no symptoms) that might harm your old fish
3. Ensure that your old fish are not carrying anything (with no symptoms) that might harm your new fish.

4. Al recommends also treating new stock for both worms and flukes, not everyone follows this advice, especially with discus breeders who are very trusted. Also, Al originally recommended treating for Hex but probably removed that recommendation due to the high probability that the medication suppresses the infection to the point that the fish's immune system can control but total cure is not often achieved.

I get that you want your discus in your display tank, but you have no guarantee that the cardinals are not carrying something (even though they appear healthy) that might affect the discus.

If you really want your discus in your display tank DT, then you need to move your cardinals to a hospital tank HT, sterilize your DT, then re cycle it, then add the discus absent any other fish. Whether you choose to prophylactically medicate is up to you.
As for the HT with the cardinals, again prophylactic treatment up to you, then add your least favorite discus to the HT and see if the hero fish develops symptoms or the cardinals do.
If you value both sets of fish the same then you would actually need a 3rd tank and add one hero fish from both groups and observe......

[Leigh Ann]

Oooooo....you bring up many good points. Thank you for that link...there is SO MUCH fabulous information on this forum so I appreciate being pointed in the right direction. I have a lot of thinking to do. I like the idea of moving the cardinals out. I plan on having a 10 gallon HT anyway. That way, I can "practice" maintaining life with the botanicals (I REALLY want to try out the botanicals!) and some cardinals aren't that hard to house in a HT when the time comes. I am REALLY excited about this project but I know that patience and taking it slow will give best results in the long run. I definitely need to do more reading/thinking/asking about preventative treatment of stock. That's something I can decide later...but deferring to successful, longtime discus keepers like Al seems like the best course of action.

[dspeers]

Remember your HT is also your IT (isolation tank) for new purchases. If you follow standard quarantine that will be 8 weeks with medications or at least 4 weeks without. A 10 gallon tank is very limiting in how much new stock you can purchase. Consider larger.

[peewee1]

Leigh Ann, are you going to collect discus from your Amazon River?

[unicast]

I also have a husband who thinks this tank size is insane. Poor dear, he has no idea!

Maybe he is right. This tank is too small... :)



200 Liter Aquarium (52ish gallons)
1 meter x 40 cm x 50cm

I plan on a 50 percent water change each week...I hear a range of thoughts on this so I'm not sure if this is enough.


With this size and with the amount of fish you want to get, it is definitely not enough.


I tested my tap water and the Ph is 7.2 and the hardness is 8Gh.

Do you know your tap water nitrates level? If not, go and buy any liquid test (Sera, Tetra, JBL etc., not paper stripes) for nitrates and also for nitrites. Then you can decide if you need RO or not.


I plan on getting adults.

From my experience, 7 cm (~ 2 inches) is the right size to buy. Bigger fish is more stressed, refuse to eat for longer time etc.

[Leigh Ann]

Thanks everyone! I will do more water changes (would 50% twice a week be better?) and get a larger HT/IT (20 gallon?). I have already ordered some testing kits online and waiting for them. The only ones I could find at a store that was open were a Ph and GH test along with those testing strips. The strips gave me a nitrate reading but I do not trust those testing stips either...the other tests will come soon! I'll share those readings when I get them. I have an RO in my online shopping cart as we speak.

Regarding sourcing stock, I would like to get wild stock..all at once. But I am fine with captive bred if it is a wiser choice for a beginner. To be honest, I haven't thought much about stock yet. The tank itself arrives on Tuesday and it will be at least a month before the tank will be set up, cycled and tweaked. After that, I want to practice and refine my water change routine etc. (aging, maintaining stability) without the discus to make sure I have good maintenance systems in place. Basically...I want to rehearse for a few weeks! But I did find out that Santarem Discus does not require a minimum order and ships to individual hobbyists. I have heard good things about this supplier so they will be my first call when I am ready.

I agree! 50 gallons is too small...I would love bigger! Funny thing, it turns out my husband has no concept of water volume. When I showed him a photo of my new tank...he was like OMG WHAT THE HELL IS THAT?? IT IS MASSIVE! IT NEEDS IT'S OWN CABINET.... ***??!!!I said "Dude! I told you 50 gallons and you were fine with it when we discussed it!" And he was like "I THOUGHT IT WOULD FIT ON OUR DESK LIKE YOU LAST ONE WITH BOB!!!!" Bob was betta fish. We were talking about 50 gallons and the whole time he was imagining a 10 gallon betta tank.:D Sorry honey. He has since gotten over the shock and is thinking about how to rearrange the furniture so we have a better view. He sucks at visualising liquid measurements but he's a good human.

[peewee1]

I would like to buy wild fish direct from the river but my fear would be that I would know know how old they were and if they were sick or not. I would like first generation wild fish from a breeder. Then I would know the age of the fish and I would know they were as close to wild fish as possible.

[Leigh Ann]

That makes sense. I'm in love with the look of wild discus much more than the idea that they are wild.

My non-negotiables with stock are:

#1 Can be healthy on 2-3 feedings per day. I originally planned for two but I could do a "before bed" feeding.
#2 Be able to purchase all at once....I don't want to separately quarantine any discus at this point.
#3 Eating flakes/granules at the breeder (I'd just buy whatever the breeder is feeding them).
#4 Brazil sourced...only because it means no importing/customs issues (which is a Brazil thing!). The fact the fish could be native to the Amazon is more of a cool convenience.

My preferences are:

#1 A matched set of fish with similar looks
#2 Heckels or similar

Beyond that...all bets are off! My hope is that I am prioritising the right things when the time comes to look for stock.

[peewee1]

That makes sense. I'm in love with the look of wild discus much more than the idea that they are wild.

My non-negotiables with stock are:

#1 Can be healthy on 2-3 feedings per day. I originally planned for two but I could do a "before bed" feeding.
#2 Be able to purchase all at once....I don't want to separately quarantine any discus at this point.
#3 Eating flakes/granules at the breeder (I'd just buy whatever the breeder is feeding them).
#4 Brazil sourced...only because it means no importing/customs issues (which is a Brazil thing!). The fact the fish could be native to the Amazon is more of a cool convenience.

My preferences are:

#1 A matched set of fish with similar looks
#2 Heckels or similar

Beyond that...all bets are off! My hope is that I am prioritising the right things when the time comes to look for stock.

I am 100% with you in your approach. I have mixed wild types for variety. At this time these consist of Red Alenquer, Alenquer (its blueish so I think Blue Alenquer), Red Heckel, and Ica Red. The Ica Reds must have Heckel blend because they have the Heckel bars.

With regard to the Ica Red. I have read that there is not a true wild Ica Red because the Ica region is so remote that collectors do not go there and in the Rio Ica there are Green Discus, not red discus. The Heckel bar can appear in any location where there are discus. The genes are in all of them. A red discus from any location can have a Heckel bar. By the way, any red discus was called “Alenquer” by the Germans. If they had a Heckel bar they were called “Ica”. It did not matter to them where the fish came from. The German red discus came from the Madeira and Purus and elsewhere and they were sold as “Alenquer”. My pseudo wild fish come form Malaysia. No telling what their true base parentage are. Which is way I think that you are fortunate to be able to access true wild discus.

[Leigh Ann]

128195
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Aquarium has arrived! Sorry, could not rotate the photo. It has been moved to it's spot (not in the spot pictured). The sump is a 15 gallon, thought it was 10 so I was pleasantly surprised. The gravel is spread very thin...it is bare in some spots. I need to get some hoses tomorrow to connect the sump. Filter media is on it's way. Playing with aquascaping...this is the maximum decoration I will add. Everything here will be removed weekly (it's easy) for the water changes and a rinse.

The sump is a 15 gallon, thought it was 10 so I was pleasantly surprised. I could not upload a photo of the sump tank in the thread...hopefully this link works.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QKuWzMGmNi5KUD6Mj-xcfAhiL_ilo0pE/view?usp=sharing

The goal is to start cycling the tank by the weekend! :o

[two utes]

Sweet set up. Good luck with your new project. Personally l like the look of all the same strain, but that's just me. l cant wait to see how it all turns out for you.

[peewee1]

The tank is great but I am more impressed with what I can see of your interior decorating skills.

[Leigh Ann]

LOL! Quarantine/Lockdown has led to some changes! The big glass table is on the way out. We rent the apartment and the furniture is not ours...in the process of swapping stuff out to make room for some furniture more suited for discus viewing! Tank is now situated against the wall of mirrors.

[Leigh Ann]

Just did a kH test......I have VERY low alkalinity. Somewhere between 0-1. This is out of the tap. Was hoping for a higher number so I would have more of a pH buffer. Water is now being aged. There is no fish in the tank yet so I know I don't need to age now. I am just getting the water change logistics sorted out. Sigh.

[Leigh Ann]

Still can't upload photos consistently. I am cycling the tank now. White film on the driftwood is a good sign I think! I'm surprised that my pH has only lowered one point. With such low kH and the addition of the catappa leaves, I thought I'd get a bigger swing.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OAmtKRC_m0Px66s6GmKcg1EzVCiptDxQ/view?usp=sharing

[peewee1]

Very nice. Would the ph not be low because of the amount of wood and leaves present in the tank? I do like that you have found a way to entertain your fish with the inclusion of the flat screen. If you should play YouTube videos of fish living in the Amazon you might trick them into thinking they really are living back home with their kin folk.

[Leigh Ann]

Very nice. Would the ph not be low because of the amount of wood and leaves present in the tank? I do like that you have found a way to entertain your fish with the inclusion of the flat screen. If you should play YouTube videos of fish living in the Amazon you might trick them into thinking they really are living back home with their kin folk.

You kill me. :) LOL. I may put on some fish TV for them when I'm at work. My dog will watch my cat...my cat will watch the fish...the fish will watch the TV. Everyone is entertained! I was surprised too about the pH. It's been holding steady for over a week. It actually fell two points compared to my aged water, i recalibrated my pH meter to be sure. Aged water reads a 7.8....aquarium water with leaves/wood reads at 7.6. I may take my water in to a LFS to confirm the kH because if it reads as low as I thought, I should be seeing a bigger swing with all those tannins and humic substances. I tossed a few leaves into my age water bins to see if could knock a few points of the pH as it ages. I don't want to chase a certain pH reading so I'm hoping the difference stays minimal. Just looking for stability between water changes.

[Iminit]

Ph really doesn’t matter as long as it’s constant. Changing ph is much worse. It’s best to keep your discus as close to tap as possible. Makes it easier for water changes.
Nice looking tank! Good luck with it. Where will you be getting your discus from?

[peewee1]

Ph really doesn’t matter as long as it’s constant. Changing ph is much worse. It’s best to keep your discus as close to tap as possible. Makes it easier for water changes.
Nice looking tank! Good luck with it. Where will you be getting your discus from?

I asked the same, Tom. My idea was for her to obtain a dipping net, rent a jeep, and head for the mother of all rivers...the mighty Amazon.

[Leigh Ann]

I asked the same, Tom. My idea was for her to obtain a dipping net, rent a jeep, and head for the mother of all rivers...the mighty Amazon.

I just might! There are opportunities to tag along on fish expeditions here! For now, I have a few local dealers I may contact here in Brazil. Santarem Discus (where Jack Wattley gets their wilds) does not distribute to Brazil...weird! But there are a few discus dealers in Sao Paulo so I will be contacting them to see what I can get. Wilds would be nice but I am open to pretty much anything. Regarding pH...I plan on doing a 50% water change this week just to see how much it swings. I'm not too worried about a 0.2 swing but that's the very edge of my comfort zone. Hopefully a 50% change doesn't cause that big of a swing...alternatively, I could do more frequent, smaller changes. The plan is to do 50% twice a week....but that plan may change after I stock the tank. I'll be constantly testing water initially and let the tank tell me what to do and when.

[Leigh Ann]

Hi all. Some sad-ish news. I've had a change of circumstances (a promotion!) which I anticipate will mean more work...a.k.a. less time. I also anticipate more travel. To that end, I don't think it's wise to get into Discus at this time. I'm going to continue building a blackwater tank but it will be a community tank that can be maintained with a weekly water change. Since I know discus will likely need more than that, I don't think it's wise to go full steam ahead. Once I get a better handle on what life will be like post-covid with the new job, I'll have a chance to reassess. I want to thank everyone for the support and encouragement! This is a great community. FYI....it is RIDICULOUS how hard it is to get my hands on wild discus here in Brazil. Many companies fish them out of the Amazon and send them worldwide....but if you ask if they ship within Brazil, it's a no or a minimum order of 20 fish! I was surprised. It is possible to get wilds, just not as easy as you would think living right by the source! That being said, I probably need to do more research. Best wishes everyone!

[LizStreithorst]

I've heard that the best ones go to Japan where they get big money for them, but it sucks that you who live there can't get your hands on just a few. Go to the Amazon and try to find people who know their stuff that you like and like you back. Surely you will find someone who can help you.

See you after Covid (whenever that happens) and best of luck with the new job involving travel. Take your masks. Poor Brazil is in a mess as far as the virus goes.

[two utes]

Hi all. Some sad-ish news. I've had a change of circumstances (a promotion!) which I anticipate will mean more work...a.k.a. less time. I also anticipate more travel. To that end, I don't think it's wise to get into Discus at this time. I'm going to continue building a blackwater tank but it will be a community tank that can be maintained with a weekly water change. Since I know discus will likely need more than that, I don't think it's wise to go full steam ahead. Once I get a better handle on what life will be like post-covid with the new job, I'll have a chance to reassess. I want to thank everyone for the support and encouragement! This is a great community. FYI....it is RIDICULOUS how hard it is to get my hands on wild discus here in Brazil. Many companies fish them out of the Amazon and send them worldwide....but if you ask if they ship within Brazil, it's a no or a minimum order of 20 fish! I was surprised. It is possible to get wilds, just not as easy as you would think living right by the source! That being said, I probably need to do more research. Best wishes everyone!

Congratulations on your promotion, and smart move on holding off with getting discus for awhile. Good luck with everything.