Discus plague? in a 500L Tank

[nikkulodeon]

Hi mates,

Just wanted to share my experience and ask for advice.

I have a beautiful planted tank with 15 majestic discus fish in it and some few corys.

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But now, I am literally frustrated of how my discus tank has been since my birthday last June. I have bought 5 5" discus fish from my go to shop, he said it was a shipment from Indonesia. Brought it home, quarantined the said fishes for at least a week in a tub. They had a stressed like behavior but shop said it was normal since they just recently arrived. After quarantine period, they looked fine and so I decided to add them to my main tank. After 2-3 days, things started to get weird. The newbies had stringy white fungus on their skin, and their dorsal fins were folded to the back. Tail fin was like pinched, and they were breathing heavily. And the day after, they died one by one :(

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This doesn't end here. My discus fish which had been with me for at least a year got that weird behavior where their dorsal fins are folded to their back and tail fin is compressed. Some stopped eating and were breathing heavily. Their gills are like visible in their skin. 6 of them died the next few days. I didnt have the chance to take a picture of them as it was too sad. I am teary-eyed while typing this by the way. Boooo

I decided to "disinfect" the tank and have a bare bottom tank instead so it will be easier to take care of the surviving ones. Removed all substrate, plants, drift wood. Sterilized the filters. Brushed every corner thoroughly. Added aged water to the tank. Parameters are great. Nitrate and nitrate at 0. Temperature kept at 85. Ph kept at 6.

Half of them are now doing fine I think. They are eating now. The other half are always hiding in the corner. Skin is staying black most times of the day, and refusing to eat. I dont know what else to do. I have done every kind of medication that I know except for PP. I have done methylene blue, malachite green, pimafix, melafix, aquarium salt, raised temperatures etc before I added them back to the sterilized tank. But still some of them are having the same behavior but is surviving. I am afraid that the better ones will go back to the sickly behavior again.

[LizStreithorst]

I've had Discus plague and it does not present like that. If you want us to help you get to the bottom of this, start by filling out this questionnaire http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[bluelagoon]

Maybe you should have tried broad range antibiotic like furan 2. Sounds like Columnaris, kills quickly within days. Pimafix and melafix is snake oil, so to speak. Don't spend your money on it. It's just an extract from plants like tea trees. Not strong enough for most fish issues. You can also see some septicemia at the base of the fin in the last pic.

[Iminit]

Sorry to read this Nick. I don’t know what’s going on. My first guess is cross contamination. As in new fish had something that there’d adjusted too as did the old fish but when added together both contaminated each other. This does happen. Your quarantine was not long enough. At the least they need 4 weeks most due more. Than you need to add an old fish to the new group. See what happens within a week. Than go from there.
What is surprising me is how good the dead fish look. Could the waters have been dramatically different? If columnaris would the new fish have had signs in the qt tank?
As to the living fish I would raise the temp to 88 and see how that goes. Do you have a uv steralizer in the tank?

[coralbandit]

Do you adjust the pH with buffers or is it naturally 6 ?
I vote for cross contamination also .
Where were the original discus from .
Most do not mix Asian and German discus .
I have heard of using furan for 3 days on each fish from different sources before mixing them but have no experience .

[nikkulodeon]

I've had Discus plague and it does not present like that. If you want us to help you get to the bottom of this, start by filling out this questionnaire http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

Hi Liz,

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Mentioned in original post


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Turning dark, even the stress bars are barely seen
Not eating, more than half of them suddenly stopped eating anything
Clamped fins, occasionally clamped then move for bit then clamped for a long time
Some are darting while others hide throughout the day
They headstand when they are about to die
No rotting but stringy fungus is there


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Pimafix/Melafix 15ml each per day
Aquarium Salt 5 tablespoons per water change
50-75% water change every other day
Methylene Blue 100ml added every water change
Flagyl 10g everyday for 7 days

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
Mentioned in original post

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
50-75% every other day


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
3 months old tank. Initially planted, gravel and fine white sand only, 10 cm deep

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
Water is aged at least 24 hours, PH between 6 - 6.5

8. What type/brand water conditioner do you use? Do you add it to the tank or aging barrel? How much do you use?
JBL Biotopol or Aquasafe, add directly to tank after water change, 10ml per 100L

9. Parameters and water source;

Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.


- temp 29-30 celsius

- ph 6-6.5

- ammonia reading <0.02

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 0

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

- RO water 100%

10. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

Mentioned in original post
11. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.
Once a day, either one of bloodworm/brine shrimp/biogold pellet/tetraflakes


12. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.
Shown in original post. Below is another photo of their behavior most time of the day

https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApkfjLLtCYrzxi0Im9g_Khjf8q84?e=Vkmnzv

[nikkulodeon]

Maybe you should have tried broad range antibiotic like furan 2. Sounds like Columnaris, kills quickly within days. Pimafix and melafix is snake oil, so to speak. Don't spend your money on it. It's just an extract from plants like tea trees. Not strong enough for most fish issues. You can also see some septicemia at the base of the fin in the last pic.

I am actually looking for Furan 2 now. It's only available in Abu Dhabi so I'd have to drive there. Anything for my babies :(

[nikkulodeon]

Do you adjust the pH with buffers or is it naturally 6 ?
I vote for cross contamination also .
Where were the original discus from .
Most do not mix Asian and German discus .
I have heard of using furan for 3 days on each fish from different sources before mixing them but have no experience .

It comes naturally as 6. Large driftwood helps in maintaining this. I have no German discus. All from Asia. All I have prior is from Vietnam. Things got messy when I added the one from Indonesia.

[nikkulodeon]

Sorry to read this Nick. I don’t know what’s going on. My first guess is cross contamination. As in new fish had something that there’d adjusted too as did the old fish but when added together both contaminated each other. This does happen. Your quarantine was not long enough. At the least they need 4 weeks most due more. Than you need to add an old fish to the new group. See what happens within a week. Than go from there.
What is surprising me is how good the dead fish look. Could the waters have been dramatically different? If columnaris would the new fish have had signs in the qt tank?
As to the living fish I would raise the temp to 88 and see how that goes. Do you have a uv steralizer in the tank?

I'd keep that in mind to have discus be quarantined for at least a month. This hasnt happened to me before since I have only one supplier for the past 2 years and this was always my timeline in quarantine. It only started when I added that batch from Indonesia. And as you can see the dead fish looked really beautiful and thought that they were disgruntled from the trip. Supplier has also confirmed that same thing happened with other customers who bought the fish from him and had reimbursed me with in kind. But the hardest thing is that it also affected the discus that I had since I started in the hobby. Some of them are still alive today, but are looking sickly. I do not have a UV sterilizer in the tank, I had one before with my external filter. But i changed mine filter to JBL Bioflow.

[bluelagoon]

By the time you see septicemia(bacteria in blood stream), the fish have been infected for a while and in some cases some of the organs can get damaged. And in other cases the fish will live a long time with a blood born infection. The meds you used will not be any good for this treatment. Try Furan 2 or Furan 2 and Kanamycin together. I would leave out the salt.

[LizStreithorst]

The numbers say that your tank was not sufficiently cycled to take care of the new bio load when you added them fish from Indonesia. Also, as has been mentioned your QT procedure was wrong. You do 3 weeks of observation of the new fish in a QT tank. Then, if you see no problems, add your least quality existing fish to the group and wait another couple of weeks to see if any problems occur. What you have going on appears to be bacterial. Furan II is the drug of choice. Your pet store should have it.

[nikkulodeon]

Thank you Liz and Mervin for the response. I will definitely have them treated as per your advice. I'll post progress.

By the way, is there some sort of chat group like Whatsapp perhaps that we can instantly send queries to?

Love lots <3

[LizStreithorst]

I forgot...lower your temp to 82 F.

There was talk not long ago about having a time and place where we could get together and chat over the phone. Unfortunately, the guy who was going to set it up lost interest. I'd do it if I knew how, but I'm not smart with doing things like that.

[bluelagoon]

At least you have a 6 ph. This treatment will work better for you there. reason I said leave out the salt is due to the kidneys are dealing with enough right now.

[nikkulodeon]

I forgot...lower your temp to 82 F.

There was talk not long ago about having a time and place where we could get together and chat over the phone. Unfortunately, the guy who was going to set it up lost interest. I'd do it if I knew how, but I'm not smart with doing things like that.

This is noted Liz. I'll do that. By the way, as I will be treating them separate from the big tank, should I sterilize the big tank? If yes, how should I do it?

I'll try to set up a meet and greet later this year. I'd be happy to coordinate this with the community <3

[nikkulodeon]

At least you have a 6 ph. This treatment will work better for you there. reason I said leave out the salt is due to the kidneys are dealing with enough right now.

Hi Mervin, got it. No to salt at the moment :)

[pablos]

I am actually looking for Furan 2 now. It's only available in Abu Dhabi so I'd have to drive there. Anything for my babies :(
Abu Dhabi you said ... I might help if needed.

[nikkulodeon]

Abu Dhabi you said ... I might help if needed.

Will be driving there tomorrow. The only store in UAE that confirmed they have Furan 2 :D

[seanyuki]

IME you need to double dose Furan 2 for every 10 gallons to be effective.

API Furan 2 Active ingredient: 85 mg Nitrofurazone per packet.


Will be driving there tomorrow. The only store in UAE that confirmed they have Furan 2 :D

[LizStreithorst]

IME you need to double dose Furan 2 for every 10 gallons to be effective.

API Furan 2 Active ingredient: 85 mg Nitrofurazone per packet.

That has not been my experience, Francis. Perhaps others have an opinion.

[seanyuki]

Just sharing......

Percent Active Ingredient
Many antibiotics commonly used for ornamental fish are sold by different companies; therefore, the percent of active ingredient will vary from product to product. This means that you may not have 100% of pure antibiotic required for disease control. You need to ask your supplier to provide you with the actual percentage of antibiotic that is active in the product you have purchased and calculate your dosage accordingly. For example, if your product contains less than 100% of active ingredient, your dosage needs to be increased to bring the level up to the equivalent 100% active ingredient. (See Equation 1) If you are unsure how to do this calculation, call your local fish health specialist.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084


That has not been my experience, Francis. Perhaps others have an opinion.

[pablos]

Will be driving there tomorrow. The only store in UAE that confirmed they have Furan 2 :D
Which shop is it?

[bluelagoon]

Myself I would not double dose furan 2. I'd be too afraid to knock them down/poison them. If it comes in at 85% just dose an extra 15%. Lets hope it 100% Furan 2.

[LizStreithorst]

I agree with you Mervin. Furan is not like Metro. You can't hurt a fish with Metro but you can with most other antibiotics. I've always used it according to label directions with good results but I wouldn't object to going up another 15%. I'd be uncomfortable double dosing.

[seanyuki]

Just sharing.....Pure Nitrofurazone


Oral(food)DOSE…..1.12 grams/lb food per day for 10 days.


Bath Dose (water change recommended prior to each dosing)…..189-756 mg per 10 gallons for 1 hour, repeat daily for 10 days or 378 mg per 10 gallons for 6-12 hours, repeat daily for 10 days.


By Dr. P.E. P.E.Yanong (in fish health management and aquatic animal health @ University of Florida