Sand or Gravel

[Vinni Smith]

OK guys and gals.
I am tired of the BB tank in my house.
Not tired of the maintenance.
Just tired of looking at the poo all day until the next WC.
BEAUTIFUL right after the WC. Just gorgeous.
Especially in this acrylic tank with no bottom trim.
For about 1 hour.
Then.....

So, I am off to Aquatic Critter today for substrate.
I am going to use very little.

Should it be sand or gravel?

Thinking either a very coarse sand or a very fine gravel.
Am I thinking correctly?

Almost every tank I see in videos on youtube have sand.
But they are also planted tanks.
No plans here for live plants.
Been there, done that, bought the shirt.
But I think I may replace some of my plastic plants with branchy driftwood.

Also, a side note off this subject...
Pet Supermarket is right down the road from us.
They get their fish from Sun Pets in Florida.
I don't know if it is the fish stock to begin with or the way the girls in the store take care of the fish.
They are all the strongest, best fish I have ever bought from a LFS.
They even carry discus. Nothing to brag about. Only some Red Turqs and Blue Diamonds and they are all just under 3" for $30
Not the prettiest fish I have seen but boy are they strong and healthy!
Relocated a lot of our smaller discus into the new 112 in the shop office.
But not this little Red Turq that I got from Pet Supermarket a couple of months ago.
That little guy rules this big tank and the big discus.
What do you think?
Is it the stock they are getting in from Sun Pet or the way they take care of them?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Vinni, if this is a growout tank I suggest you keep it bare bottom. If you insist on a substrate I would suggest a fine white sand and just enough to cover the bottom. Maybe 1/4 inch thick. The courser the substrate the more likely it will trap junk.
Pat

[Vinni Smith]

Hi Vinni, if this is a growout tank I suggest you keep it bare bottom. If you insist on a substrate I would suggest a fine white sand and just enough to cover the bottom. Maybe 1/4 inch thick. The courser the substrate the more likely it will trap junk.
Pat

Not a grow out tank. Just my favorite big fish from Miranda are in that tank.
Other than the little Turq I mentioned earlier.

How does the fine sand do with the vacuum during WC?
That is my only concern with sand.
I can see how it would be much better otherwise.
Was just afraid it would all go out the tube when vacuuming.

[Second Hand Pat]

Be sure to not get the play sand Vinni. Get PFS (pool filter sand) and you want it to be inert so it does not affect ph.
Pat

[fljones3]

Not sure pool sand is going to solve your "seeing poop" everywhere. Gravel will bring into play possible long-term consequences. I have had both. Removed both. You could paint the bottom (on the underside) whatever color you desire. On my 75g, I put a cork underbottom which darkened the bottom while keeping the convenience of BB. You still see the poop but you will with any substrate (unless it falls between pebbles, but that's another issue).

The book of Proverbs says that where no oxen are, the crib is clean. As long as you have oxen (discus) you will see waste products.


Not a grow out tank. Just my favorite big fish from Miranda are in that tank.
Other than the little Turq I mentioned earlier.

How does the fine sand do with the vacuum during WC?
That is my only concern with sand.
I can see how it would be much better otherwise.
Was just afraid it would all go out the tube when vacuuming.

[peewee1]

With white or light color sand you will still see the poo. What I would work on if I were you is to develop a solutionthat would not harm the fish but would act to dissolve the poo. Name it "No Poo" and you will make a million dollars.

[Vinni Smith]

With white or light color sand you will still see the poo. What I would work on if I were you is to develop a solutionthat would not harm the fish but would act to dissolve the poo. Name it "No Poo" and you will make a million dollars.

Yep, ya know what that solution is really called?
Another Rob fantail goldfish!
Maybe a red cap Ryukin this time

The discus sure do love this one I have.
They sometimes go over and saddle up next to him.
Kind of like when I used to have saltwater and the angels would belly up to the cleaner wrasses.

The mating pair downstairs almost look like they are kissing the goldfish.
Especially the big red discus.

I know a lot of folks here just cringe when they think of goldfish with discus, but it really is working well for me.

[fljones3]

Increasing water movement along the bottom will collect the poo in an area but will also work on dissolving it in the water column. It can be a dramatic difference.
Then, it's removed by WC.


Yep, ya know what that solution is really called?
Another Rob fantail goldfish!

[Vinni Smith]

I just did a WC and ya know what most of that is on the bottom?
Algae.
Some poop but mostly just green and brown algae.
I think it shows up so well because there is no trim on the sides.
That clear acrylic transfers colors as well as light.

Maybe it would be good if I just left the green algae there and siphoned out the poop.
A nice thick carpet of green would look good to me.

[Vinni Smith]

Increasing water movement along the bottom will collect the poo in an area but will also work on dissolving it in the water column. It can be a dramatic difference.
Then, it's removed by WC.


That is what is happening at this time.
It collects right in the middle.
It would be better if a corner was chosen.

[Oxboy]

Buy a bag of pool filter sand, wash it thoroughly in a bucket and throw in a 1/2" layer. If you don't like it, syphon it all out. No harm to the fish or wallet.

[Vinni Smith]

Buy a bag of pool filter sand, wash it thoroughly in a bucket and throw in a 1/2" layer. If you don't like it, syphon it all out. No harm to the fish or wallet.

When you say siphon it all out, that is exactly what I am concerned about using sand. I don't want to fight it trying to get it to stay in the aquarium when I am cleaning it with the siphon.

[peewee1]

Yep, ya know what that solution is really called?
Another Rob fantail goldfish!
Maybe a red cap Ryukin this time

The discus sure do love this one I have.
They sometimes go over and saddle up next to him.
Kind of like when I used to have saltwater and the angels would belly up to the cleaner wrasses.

The mating pair downstairs almost look like they are kissing the goldfish.
Especially the big red discus.

I know a lot of folks here just cringe when they think of goldfish with discus, but it really is working well for me.

You could name the new goldfish "Nopoo" or even "Poocuum"

[Oxboy]

When you say siphon it all out, that is exactly what I am concerned about using sand. I don't want to fight it trying to get it to stay in the aquarium when I am cleaning it with the siphon.

You are stressing too much over this.

It all depends on the diameter and length of your siphon end. A 2" diameter siphon tool with a long neck like a standard WC Python will have little power to suck up sand and maybe even poo. A 1/2" diameter hose with no tool on the end will suck up a ton of sand if you accidentally create a vacuum instead of skimming over the substrate.

it takes a little practice.

[Vinni Smith]

You are stressing too much over this.

It all depends on the diameter and length of your siphon end. A 2" diameter siphon tool with a long neck like a standard WC Python will have little power to suck up sand and maybe even poo. A 1/2" diameter hose with no tool on the end will suck up a ton of sand if you accidentally create a vacuum instead of skimming over the substrate.

it takes a little practice.

That helps a lot

[danotaylor]

Vinnie this PFS is pretty coarse, is inert, and looks very natural. I love it in my tanks. I use a 24" long gravel vac but still have to be careful not to suck the sand out, as Oxboy said, it just takes a little practice :thumbsup:

128706

[igotgats]

Gravel will bring into play possible long-term consequences.

Can you elaborate on this? I'm in the planning stages for my tank, and keep going back and forth on the sand vs gravel situation as well.

What are these long term consequences for gravel?

[danotaylor]

Gravel tends to trap waste beneath the surface resulting in potential anaerobic build up and increased bacterial counts. These can lead to a rapid decline in water quality and potential disaster for your precious discus. Regular deep gravel vacuuming can mitigate these issues if you're diligent

[peewee1]

Gravel tends to trap waste beneath the surface resulting in potential anaerobic build up and increased bacterial counts. These can lead to a rapid decline in water quality and potential disaster for your precious discus. Regular deep gravel vacuuming can mitigate these issues if you're diligent

You would also notice the trapped waste as brown or green.

[above design]

Hey Vinni,

I totally get your frustration with the bare bottom vs sand/gravel bottom look. I've literally had a bag of pool filter sand in my trunk since March but I just cant do it. Does it look better with a sand/gravel bottom? YES!! The real question is it worth it? More work, more chance of disease, more stress..... or hopefully it's all good.

[fljones3]

+1
Even if you are diligent in cleaning over time, it still builds up. When I took out my gravel (even though cleaning 4-5x a week with my regular WC routine) there was still a lot of debris. I cannot remember how long before I removed the gravel, but I am thinking it was about 9 months.


Gravel tends to trap waste beneath the surface resulting in potential anaerobic build up and increased bacterial counts. These can lead to a rapid decline in water quality and potential disaster for your precious discus. Regular deep gravel vacuuming can mitigate these issues if you're diligent

[Vinni Smith]

Hey Vinni,

I totally get your frustration with the bare bottom vs sand/gravel bottom look. I've literally had a bag of pool filter sand in my trunk since March but I just cant do it. Does it look better with a sand/gravel bottom? YES!! The real question is it worth it? More work, more chance of disease, more stress..... or hopefully it's all good.

Yep. Things are going quite well in the tank and I really don't want to rock the boat on all of that.
I did not go out and buy any substrate yesterday.
I did a big WC and vacuumed the bottom, but i did not do a wipe-down on the bottom.
It is all nice and green right now.
A carpet of green algae, I think would be a nice touch.
Just like what is on the driftwood center piece.

I am just going to think about it more for a few days before making any moves.

[peewee1]

Yep. Things are going quite well in the tank and I really don't want to rock the boat on all of that.
I did not go out and buy any substrate yesterday.
I did a big WC and vacuumed the bottom, but i did not do a wipe-down on the bottom.
It is all nice and green right now.
A carpet of green algae, I think would be a nice touch.
Just like what is on the driftwood center piece.

I am just going to think about it more for a few days before making any moves.

What works with my kids when its time for a break from a few hours of mayhem and destruction is to have them sit down on their hands and not to move for whatever the the allotted time is. They can move for restroom and water but that's it!!

[above design]

Yep. Things are going quite well in the tank and I really don't want to rock the boat on all of that.
I did not go out and buy any substrate yesterday.
I did a big WC and vacuumed the bottom, but i did not do a wipe-down on the bottom.
It is all nice and green right now.
A carpet of green algae, I think would be a nice touch.
Just like what is on the driftwood center piece.

I am just going to think about it more for a few days before making any moves.

Do you have any bushy nose plecos in there? They should be able to clean it up. I've got several in my 90 and there's never any algae build up on the bottom.

Mark

[Vinni Smith]

Do you have any bushy nose plecos in there? They should be able to clean it up. I've got several in my 90 and there's never any algae build up on the bottom.

Mark
I do not but I have been wanting to get some.
DO you have a good source?
Albino, long fin, BN

[above design]

I do not but I have been wanting to get some.
DO you have a good source?
Albino, long fin, BN

Absolutely! Contact Brian (Jeep) here. I was very happy with my order from him. They are healthy and very reasonably priced.

Mark

[Losago1980]

Here's another alternative to sand or gravel that I recently saw in someone's Discus tank that looked surprisingly beautiful: Tile.... that's right floor tile! Like the ones you buy at Home Depot. They cut it to fit and size the bottom of the tank, and they picked the coolest designs. I'm sure there was a whole process of sterializing and cleaning/soaking the tile before they put in the tank (sorry, I didn't ask them), but it looked amazing, it was still super easy to clean and hide all the "stuff"..... I thought it was very creative and practical. It's been in their tanks for years and fish looked healthy.

Has anyone ever done/seem this?

[Losago1980]

Vinnie this PFS is pretty coarse, is inert, and looks very natural. I love it in my tanks. I use a 24" long gravel vac but still have to be careful not to suck the sand out, as Oxboy said, it just takes a little practice :thumbsup:

128706

Daniel,

This is more of a beige color right? not like pure white, correct?.... Do you have a pic how it looks in your tank? I'm debating that as well. Thank you!

[Vinni Smith]

Here's another alternative to sand or gravel that I recently saw in someone's Discus tank that looked surprisingly beautiful: Tile.... that's right floor tile! Like the ones you buy at Home Depot. They cut it to fit and size the bottom of the tank, and they picked the coolest designs. I'm sure there was a whole process of sterializing and cleaning/soaking the tile before they put in the tank (sorry, I didn't ask them), but it looked amazing, it was still super easy to clean and hide all the "stuff"..... I thought it was very creative and practical. It's been in their tanks for years and fish looked healthy.

Has anyone ever done/seem this?

I have seen that in videos.
But one question...
What do you do about the detritus and mulm that gets between and under the tile.
You know some will get down there.

Yes, I have seen it and it can look very good.

[Losago1980]

I have seen that in videos.
But one question...
What do you do about the detritus and mulm that gets between and under the tile.
You know some will get down there.

Yes, I have seen it and it can look very good.

Oh yeah.... I think at the end of the day, no matter what kind of substrate or bottom you choose for your tank, there will be maintenance needed. I don't have tiles myself, so I am the wrong person to ask, but I imagine that you could either seal the tiles in (more of a permanent fix) and put something in between the tiles to glue them together so there's no gaps (glue/silicone?). I'm not sure. I just thought that was a great idea to have a "barebottom tank" that's not completely "bare" or boring.

[danotaylor]

Vinnie I hope you don't mind me answering Luiz here?? Yes, it has an overall beige appearance, but it is very clean looking quartz, not dull like play sand. I don't have a clear picture of the sand but this one at least shows kinda what it looks like...there is a lot of tannin in the water from the wood.

128727

[Vinni Smith]

Vinnie I hope you don't mind me answering Luiz here?? Yes, it has an overall beige appearance, but it is very clean looking quartz, not dull like play sand. I don't have a clear picture of the sand but this one at least shows kinda what it looks like...there is a lot of tannin in the water from the wood.

128727

That right there is what I would go with.
I like that coarse sand.
Just seems it would be much easier to deal with.

[Bud Smith]

I have had sand and gravel. I like the look of sand but it gets in everything. If I were to set up a display tank I would use Carib Sea super naturals peace river. Small gravel and easy to vac. If you go to Carib Sea.com they will show you their variety of sand and gravel including size. My experience between the two substrates.

[Vinni Smith]

So, for now, I have been just chilling, doing my WCs and vacuuming the bottom.
I decided to let the algae grow on the BB.
I like the looks. The fish seem to like picking around in it.
We will see how this goes.
Just wanted to try it before I add anything else that I may end up regretting.

128738128739

[peewee1]

So, for now, I have been just chilling, doing my WCs and vacuuming the bottom.
I decided to let the algae grow on the BB.
I like the looks. The fish seem to like picking around in it.
We will see how this goes.
Just wanted to try it before I add anything else that I may end up regretting.

128738128739

Lookat the size of the turd, Vinni! I now understand and feel your pain with regard to daily cleanup.

[pastry]

I'm going to be an npopular minority on this but I say "local" sand. I've used sand from Folly beach and sand from two different lakes... it's a RISK (could be unwanted critters) but there are tons of "good critters" in it.

I'm more comfortable using local sand than "store bought" of any kind. But I'm also the ding dong who uses local driftwood but a few times have used wood types that were no bueno.

Either way, definitely sand over gravel if wanting sediment. Gravel is SOOOO bad for trapping crap which leads to other bad things. Don't do powder sand but just standard sand (IMO)

[danotaylor]

I'm a local wood guy as well Elliot...love finding my own cool pieces and using them...

[Losago1980]

Vinnie I hope you don't mind me answering Luiz here?? Yes, it has an overall beige appearance, but it is very clean looking quartz, not dull like play sand. I don't have a clear picture of the sand but this one at least shows kinda what it looks like...there is a lot of tannin in the water from the wood.

128727

Thanks Daniel for showing me, looks really good mate!

[danotaylor]

You're welcome Luiz!!

[Vinni Smith]

Lookat the size of the turd, Vinni! I now understand and feel your pain with regard to daily cleanup.


Yep, that's a biggin'

[Vinni Smith]

I got on the phone while doing a WC yesterday.
Forgot all about it.
Then I remembered. OH NO!!!
The fish were still swimming but sideways.
It was a WC via Willie.
Got it filled back up.
Whew.

[danotaylor]

Discus pancakes! A Willie special :thumbsup:

[fljones3]

A Water Willie :)


Discus pancakes! A Willie special :thumbsup:

[danotaylor]

:p:D:grin:

[igotgats]

Vinnie I hope you don't mind me answering Luiz here?? Yes, it has an overall beige appearance, but it is very clean looking quartz, not dull like play sand. I don't have a clear picture of the sand but this one at least shows kinda what it looks like...there is a lot of tannin in the water from the wood.

128727

Can you grow plants in this sand?

[danotaylor]

I don't see why not though you may need to use root fert tabs

[Dam777]

I got tired of the PFS, doesn't hide the poop anyway. Theres some websites that offer the peel and stick backgrounds in many colors and patterns. I measured the bottom of my tank and they cut it to fit perfect, its a drift wood looking bottom and hides poop very well. Down side is flipping tank upside down to apply. Something to think about.

[pablos]

I silently following this thread, as I want to prepare a substrate for my new 150 gallon tank. What I see pool filtration sand might be best choice (price, doesn't trap stuff etc.). I found locally quartz silica sand with ranule size = 0.5 - 1 m. Do you think it would be good for discus (I know, I know BB is better) and for corydoras. 128919

[pastry]

Yes, sand grows plants. No need for root tabs but doesn't hurt (I don't). I've never dealt with PFS... just scoop up local sand on intercoastal water way or beach.

[pablos]

There are quite a lot of sand around my location
128944
and I could choose between few different colors depends on dunes: whiter, grey, yellowish or red one. But still I would worry about a paradise or any unwanted bacterias which I might bring with it.

[Vinni Smith]

There are quite a lot of sand around my location
128944
and I could choose between few different colors depends on dunes: whiter, grey, yellowish or red one. But still I would worry about a paradise or any unwanted bacterias which I might bring with it.

I think that would do the trick! LOL
Why don't you try selling sand online?
But I think you need some driftwood in that pic.

[pastry]

I think that would do the trick! LOL
Why don't you try selling sand online?
But I think you need some driftwood in that pic.

LMAO... I would sell local sand but found out it's illegal to steal sand from the beach :shocked2: 5 gallon bucket partially loaded... no prob... but I was there with a 96 quart cooler :sorry:

I wouldn't buy driftwood from me any time soon... the past year I've gotten unlucky a few times.

As for parasites and bad bacteria: I've only noticed GREAT bacteria and elements.

[pablos]

Why don't you try selling sand online?
But I think you need some driftwood in that pic.

I don't really think there is a big demand for a sand on the local market ;-) "how would you sell a fridge to an eskimo?" but having a driftwood might be challenging : no single lake, nor river. I found mangrove's driftwood on a beach, but it would not work.

[Vinni Smith]

OK, so I have an answer for the problem of BB vs gravel/sand
Here it is.......

128977

I actually meant this as a joke, but the guys in the shop like it.
I poured a bunch of water in and this was the result.
Think I will keep it like this for a while.
It's growing on me too.

[danotaylor]

Lol, looks like a pond in a gravel pit with 2 trees growing by the edge :p

[Vinni Smith]

Lol, looks like a pond in a gravel pit with 2 trees growing by the edge :p

I think so too. Pretty cool.

[pablos]

Maybe it would be better to put some plate with a beef heart ... just need to learn discus a little bit of savoir-vivre ;)