German and Asian

[pablos]

Official statement from Stendker is that their discus can not be hosted together Asian fish:
"Our STENDKER Discus Fish should therefore not be kept together with Asian offspring, even if the BU is compatible. Otherwise, either the advantages of our fish (easy to keep in almost any water as long as the pH value is below 8, low maintenance, water change of 30 percent once a week, also suitable for aquarium beginners) would be lost under Asian keeping conditions, or Asian discus fish, under European keeping conditions, could lose a lot of their life expectancy."

I want to know your opinion. Is it really true?

[danotaylor]

Dude that image is completely inappropriate for this site. Not cool :thumbsdown:

[pablos]

Dude that image is completely inappropriate for this site. Not cool :thumbsdown:
Sorry.. removed

[peewee1]

Stendker breeders are experts and as such their opinions and recommendations should be seriously considered. Two different fish evolved by years of breeding heading into a different direction. A polar bear looks like a bear but it is not a grizzly bear, which also looks like a bear. Yet both survive in much different environments. It's not unreasonable to believe the same with regard to a discus. Asian vs European. If we could would we breed a polar with a grizzly with a brown bear? Where would such a bear live? Would the off spring be more or lest successful at survival? Stendker were carefully bred for advantage. The beginner's discus. Some thought went into their development. Leaving Asian discus breed for mass production without regard for much else. According to Stendker. What they are suggesting seems reasonable to me. The two are not the same discus.

[coralbandit]

Most do not mix Asian and German as there seems to be different pathogens each fish is raised around and neither have built resistance to the what the other may carry.
One of my buddies say it is the same with Kio but if both fish are treated with formalin for 3 days before integrating the chance of issue is reduced ?

[Second Hand Pat]

If you can not mix German with Asian then we should not mix wilds and domestics for the same reasons. Fact is people have mixed German, Asian and wilds many times. Can you have CC issues, yes. Best to start with good healthy stock and observe proper QT with a hero fish as part of the mixing process. BTW, great marketing statement by Stendker! ;)
Pat

[Bud Smith]

I raise german discus theses days. I will not mix them with Asian. Why poke the bear? risk of disease, medications. Discus like stable consistent conditions. Just my opinion.

[Willie]

I've kept Stendkers with Asian discus for decades without knowing about this statement. I'm not aware what are "Asian keeping conditions", compared to "European keeping conditions". Besides, Stendker got all his traits, like spotted, fineline snakeskin, pigeon bloods, from Asia inthe first place.

[Vinni Smith]

I have only been raising discus for about 1 year now. So I am no expert as some here on this site.
Both German and Asian fish.
I am with Pat on this one. Good sales pitch.
Also, good reason for a weak fish.
I have made a lot of phone calls to a lot of fish breeders and distributors.
"If you are going to have problems, it will show up in 4 days and it only happens 20% of the time".
Those are the answers I get.
Never a problem for me mixing them.

HOWEVER, if I ever have a fish die, guess what, German.
That is not including the piece of crap batch I originally got. They were all bad from the start.
I am assuming all Asian? Not sure.

I am not sure, but I think Miranda's fish from Chicago Discus are Asian?
They are the BOMB!
Never a problem with her fish.
I am very fortunate to have a fantastic lfs right up the street.
It's called Pet Supermarket. They sell fish from Sun Pets in Florida. Again, I am pretty sure Asian fish.
NEVER a problem with their fish either. have not lost a one.
Those girls at that store really pay good attention to their fish tanks.
And when you bring the fish home, even small ones, they never hide.
They are immediately out front with the others wanting to be fed.
I have had their fish for months now and they are as easy to raise as angelfish.

I have one German fish remaining.
A Sapphire Blue. It's gonna die soon, it seems.
To me, they all just don't have this strong personality or will to live and survive.
They are frail from the start even though they look great when you buy them.
A fish store across town sells nothing but Stendker. Gorgeous fish!
No more of them for me.
I got 3 of them this year at $90 each.
2 withered away over the past 6 months. This is with meds and 90% WCs every other day.
Yet all of my Asian fish are thriving. And being kept in the same tanks.

Again, I am no expert. Only been keeping discus for just under a year now.
But this is my take on it.
I really don't believe the "don't mix" theory.
I think it is don't mix weak fish with strong ones.

BYW, I also raised Koi fish in California for many years.
I mixed both Asian and American fish.
NEVER one problem with that.
Why would discus not be the same?
Just not buying into it.

[dspeers]

I agree, I think this is more marketing hype than real. Although the issue of cross contamination and novel pathogens is real and potentially lethal, I would imagine that it also applies to Asian breeders who are geographically isolated from each other, the risk can be minimized with quarantine and prophylactic treatment but never fully eliminated.

This is almost a speciation argument, meaning don't mix two species with differing requirements unless you are willing to damage/kill one or the other. But, who can define the difference between german tank conditions vs Asian tank conditions. It is implied that German sourced discus tolerate less frequent water changes, but who would want to stress their fish as a routine. Plus if not quantified, that is almost a worthless observation: How much more NO3, or TDS, or ORP change can german discus tolerate.

As an aside, due to climate changes the range of Brown and Polar bears have been overlapping progressively to a much greater degree over the last several years and successful hybrids, including second generation hybrids (meaning this is a fertile cross as opposed to mules) have been found in nature. Over time if this continues this could lead to either a 3rd species or de-speciation where brown and polar bears ended up a single species.

[Iminit]

For me I’m a mixer :). First 6 came from local stores. No clue as too their heritage. Next we’re 6 Hans. These discus for me are very strong absolutely no problems. Just bought 8 more. Next I bought 2 from uncle sams. Again no problem just haven’t grown as big as Hans fish. All live together in a planted :eek: tank. To me clean water and qt are the most important things. :).

[peewee1]

Tom, if you bought from Kenny this month then those would be Malaysian.

[Iminit]

Yes and they are coming next week :). Not sure where there going yet.

[Iminit]

For me I’m a mixer :). First 6 came from local stores. No clue as too their heritage. Next we’re 6 Hans. These discus for me are very strong absolutely no problems. Just bought 8 more. Next I bought 2 from uncle sams. Again no problem just haven’t grown as big as Hans fish. All live together in a planted :eek: tank. To me clean water and qt are the most important things. :).

[Willie]

Asian and European discus are the same species. They cross without any loss in fertility, vigor, etc. Ever since Georg Stendker got remarried, the marketing effort has become so much more aggressive - less scientifically based.

[captainandy]

Here’s an analogy. Asian bred discus have been exposed to a virus (like Covid) and have developed immunity for generations. German bred haven’t been exposed so some will not fare well with mixing

[Vinni Smith]

Here’s an analogy. Asian bred discus have been exposed to a virus (like Covid) and have developed immunity for generations. German bred haven’t been exposed so some will not fare well with mixing

I have to say NONE of my german bred have fared well.

[farebox]

Buy American, Japan and Germany both lost the war! Just some humor, LOL. A few years ago I mixed some Kenny and Hans discus together and over a period of time all expired, white poo, hunger strikes, even with meds applied to the tank. Now I have 10-Hans in my 125-gallon and 5- Chicago Discus in a 40-gallon breeder I just recently set up. Plan not to mix these guys together. :o

[Iminit]

Vinnie I hear you. But did you get yours from Hans or a pet store?

My feeling on cross contamination is part marketing and part no qt. I believe all discus hold certain diseases. When stressed as in added to an existing tank without qt these diseases start to show. If not removed these diseases will pass to healthy fish. Most times when removed the stress fish will heal and the rest will not get infected. It’s when left in tank till noticeable sick that everything goes bad. And as a seller why not use this to your advantage and say don’t mix just buy mine?

[seanyuki]

After 6 weeks quarantine new German arrivals and added an Asian Discus hero discus from the existing to the quarantine tank and after one week these symptoms shows up due to their different immune system.

rapid and heavy breathing*.
turning dark and with clamped fins.
excessive mucus and slime coat.
scratching and rubbing against aquarium objects; they may also start darting .
severe fin rot and white patches.


Best way to treat cross contamination.

[dspeers]

I wonder if there is a current consensus about what prophylactic meds are best to use to minimize risk if you want to mix asian and german. There is Al's protocol which some follow and some don't and then the idea of using formalin was mentioned. Any thoughts from the Gurus? Will say that if I had a bunch of both I think after quarantine I would pick two hero fish in a third tank and see what happens.

[dspeers]

Vinni, just curious, where did you get your German fish.

[jeep]

I've never had an issue mixing Asian and German discus, but knowing what to look for and then making the decision to introduce them to each other is more important than simply following directions. I've had some Asian discus that were never even introduced to my other Asian discus. It's not the nationality that is most important, it's the source...

[danotaylor]

Friends if y'all wanna rehash this debate go right ahead but notice the OP has not posted since the initial posting except to say sorry and remove an inappropriate image. The whole thread was intended to be a joke centered around said inappropriate image, and so with the image and original last paragraph removed, the OP really has little interest in the genuine question left behind or the answers that have followed. Time spent posting here would be wasted in my opinion.
Be well y'all!

[Vinni Smith]

Vinni, just curious, where did you get your German fish.

Lfs here in Nashville called Aquatic Critter. Very high end store. They keep the discus in a huge tank in the back. Very proud of them and it is labeled Stendker.

I know the owner of this store and they really care about their fish.

I am not saying German fish are bad. Those fish are gorgeous. I am saying they have not done well for me at all. Mixing the problem? I don't know. 3-5 months to show up and happen?

All I know is the fish I have gotten from Miranda (Chicago Discus) and lfs (Sun Pets) have done fantastic for me. They are exactly the kind of fish I want to keep.

BTW, Danotaylor. It does not really matter to me if the OP was a troll. This has been an interesting thread as far as I am concerned. I just like getting together with you all and spitting back and forth. The troll actually brought up a good subject.

I am going to bed now.

V

[danotaylor]

No worries Vinni, it's just all been discussed multiple times before and you can find all the opinions voiced using the search engine. I just didn't want the genuine folks here wasting their precious time since I felt that the OP's intention was bogus and never to discuss the topic or merits laid out in this thread. I've been wrong before...
Either way, no harm no foul :)

[pablos]

Daniel,
My intention was to get an opinion from experts regarding that topic, which has been shared by quite a few folks. I really appreciate that are people who are sharing they expertises of their passion. That’s really great!

I was not intended to offend someone by posting an image, which might not be appropriate. It sounds like not funny joke, so I removed it. Sorry about that.

[danotaylor]

Ok pablos, if you say so. Happy dayz everyone

[pablos]

Yeah. I bought recently those small cute puppies from Stendker and I was surprised about statement in their manual. Honestly I’m still confused how much it’s marketing and how a real issue.

128969

[danotaylor]

Wisdom says to always QT new fish not matter what source they come from. Even with careful QT'ing there can be problems. I have experienced this myself, but got through it with the help of Brian & Pat on this forum. CaptainAndy's analogy in this thread is a perfect example of how cross contamination can occur in 2 otherwise healthy populations. It's just not possible to know what your discus are immune or susceptible too. Mixing sources increases the risk for sure, but it can be done, you just have to be prepared. It's a good idea to have metro, salt, and a broad spectrum antibiotic like furan or furan 2 on hand when attempting to merge fish. The time it takes to ship meds can spell disaster if things don't go according to plan.

[Iminit]

Nice looking discus Pablos!! What types are they.
Got to say I like the topic. Only here a short time and it seems there’s only 2 big breeders discussed here. Hans and Kenny. I know there’s others but those 2 are the biggest. Most of mine are Hans but I just bought 4 of Kenny’s. Will be coming next week. So topic is relevant to me. Really not sure what I’m doing with them. Thinking now I should have bought 6. Not sure if I’ll mix. Another question what happened to the American breeders?

[pablos]

I have 5 Asian adult discus, out
of them two pairs have been created and they are laying eggs as we speak.

Then local distributor informed about a new Stendkers ... so I could not wait :) and bought those 6 ones (2 Tefe, 2 turquoise, one alenquer and German wonder). They are awesome :)

I was thinking to quarantine them for a few weeks and grow up, till my new 150gallon tank is ready so could potentially put all 6 German and 5 Asian discus in that tank.

[bluelagoon]

I guess most folks have read this but I'll post it anyways.https://diskuszucht-stendker.de/en_en/Aktuelles/Aktuell/.. Also Asian discus farms use a lot of "yellow powder" as they put it. Most are raised in tanks of Furan 2 due to crowded living conditions. Another good read.https://phys.org/news/2013-01-ornamental-fish-industry-problems-antibiotic.html. There are you tube videos showing farmed discus in Asia using that antibiotic daily basis. They grow up under different living conditions. German indoor with filtration and most Asia out side in large concrete tanks.

[Willie]

...https://diskuszucht-stendker.de/en_en/Aktuelles/Aktuell/.....

Very odd statement in the Stendker material, "It is partly accepted that your existing fish stock will be infected with our STENDKER discus fish and that our animals will die!" Nothing in their document refers to infections or antibiotics, just this unsupported statement. I like Stendker discus for the size and fertility, but this kind of smear is frankly disappointing. There are other discus breeders in Europe and no one else is claiming this.

I can't speak for all ornamental fish, for which there are plenty of abuse, I'm sure. But all discus farms I've visited in Asia (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore) have discus growing in tanks, not in ponds. With 300% water changes daily, constant use of medication is simply not practical. I keep Stendker discus, Asian spawned discus and Asian strains spawned in North America. Most are healthy and an occasional fish will get sick. In general, there's no difference in health between these fish.

[Vinni Smith]

I have one Stendker fish remaining.
It is a Blue Diamond that has now turned black but is still eating.
All else in the tank is doing great.
That will be the last Stendker that I plan to buy.
Only exception is if some day I decide to do a tank just for them.
Which, quite frankly is not a sweet idea to me at this time.

[bluelagoon]

Very odd statement in the Stendker material, "It is partly accepted that your existing fish stock will be infected with our STENDKER discus fish and that our animals will die!" Nothing in their document refers to infections or antibiotics, just this unsupported statement. I like Stendker discus for the size and fertility, but this kind of smear is frankly disappointing. There are other discus breeders in Europe and no one else is claiming this.

I can't speak for all ornamental fish, for which there are plenty of abuse, I'm sure. But all discus farms I've visited in Asia (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Malaysia and Singapore) have discus growing in tanks, not in ponds. With 300% water changes daily, constant use of medication is simply not practical. I keep Stendker discus, Asian spawned discus and Asian strains spawned in North America. Most are healthy and an occasional fish will get sick. In general, there's no difference in health between these fish.

Here is a video of the "yellow powder". I know myself that not all Asian discus are grown out in ponds, but some are and these discus could be the ones that are causing the issues when mixed with those that had no antibiotics. I would think there immune systems would be compromised from all the antibiotics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn7cXJu5mG4&ab_channel=AquariumCo-Op

[Willie]

Discus production in Asia has spread beyond the original sources due to the pressure to lower prices. I've seen discus come from Vietnam and Thailand. Some of these have been imported into Singapore then resold as Singapore discus (spent an afternoon in Singapore with an exporter who was very candid about his business model). So there's bound to be abuse in the system. That's not to say that similar abuses do not occur in discus from other parts of the world. To create a division between Asian and European discus is simplistic and incorrect.

The answer is always to buy from reliable, trustworthy suppliers. Once again, this goes back to buying from Simply Discus sponsors who would have ssooooooo much to lose if their fish craps out.

[bluelagoon]

Very true. The source is the most important part. No matter what part of the world they come from. I see a lot of nice home bred discus on here too. I thought I'd through that in so folks that are having a lot bacterial issues with discus usually bought from the shops that don't specialize in discus come from those farms that use antibiotics in vast quantities.

[CliffsDiscus]

Here is a video of the "yellow powder". I know myself that not all Asian discus are grown out in ponds, but some are and these discus could be the ones that are causing the issues when mixed with those that had no antibiotics. I would think there immune systems would be compromised from all the antibiotics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn7cXJu5mG4&ab_channel=AquariumCo-Op

On one of my trips I asked about the Yellow Powder, they said it's a form of furanase.
As for the practice of Discus in ponds out doors this still existing but some have move
indoors operations for a cleaner operation without using any pesticides.

Cliff

[Vinni Smith]

So, my last Stendker finally passed today.
Just withered away for months.
Everyone else in the tank is flourishing.
All the others are asian fish.
Well, I think so. What are the fish from Mac's? Are they asian?
I have two of them in that tank as well.

So, I am thinking if the asians are raised outside with the bird poop, fogs doing nasty things in the water, bugs of all sorts and parasites of most all kinds.
Could this be why the asian fish are doing great for me and the german fish being raised inside in perfect conditions fall victim to any ailment that comes along?
If that is the case, I will stay with my asian fish. Even as beautiful as the Stendker fish can be.

[peewee1]

I believe that to a certain extent that Mac is a breeder. He may resell as well.

[Iminit]

Vinnie I think your problem comes from your pet shop. Were the steadier discus the only discus in the tank? I have Hans discus and they have been flawless. I’ve mixed them with store bought and Asian with no problem as of yet. That tank my 125 is over a year old now and so far all is well.

[Vinni Smith]

Vinnie I think your problem comes from your pet shop. Were the steadier discus the only discus in the tank? I have Hans discus and they have been flawless. I’ve mixed them with store bought and Asian with no problem as of yet. That tank my 125 is over a year old now and so far all is well.

Well, maybe so. But they look and act ok for a while. Then BOOM. It all starts.
They are in a huge tank by themselves in the back of the store.
At one point I did see a couple of Arowanas in with them.
They look like they are very well kept.
And it is really only those fish that die on us.
Other than the first 5 I got from ******.com
That was my first batch and they were junkers.

[pablos]

So, my last Stendker finally passed today.
Just withered away for months.


That's really sad that you lost them all :( What had happened?

[captainandy]

Vinnie, had the exact same experience. Painful and expensive. I'm glad others haven't experienced this with mixing.
My question is really this. What varieties of either german or asian discus are so special that you cannot get what you want out of the hobby by just staying with one or the other.

[Vinni Smith]

129018129019
Vinnie, had the exact same experience. Painful and expensive. I'm glad others haven't experienced this with mixing.
My question is really this. What varieties of either german or asian discus are so special that you cannot get what you want out of the hobby by just staying with one or the other.

Good Point Andy. One or the other, once you learn that, are plenty of varieties.

BTW, I have another small shipment coming from Miranda at Chicago Discus. Scheduled to arrive by 10:30 AM tomorrow. Two 5" red Checkerboard PB. Nancy just loves those.
We like the Blue Diamond as well. Just waiting for her to get some 5" in stock.

[Vinni Smith]

That's really sad that you lost them all :( What had happened?


Not really sure. Just over months they withered way to nothing.

[pablos]

I moved my new 2.5" Stedker into the same tank where previously Asian pair were laying eggs (after 100% water change). Tank is BB, but same media (sponge filter and corner filter) and java fern on driftwood were left untouched.
If I understand the main concern about mixing is that cross contamination might occur. It looks like I did everything opposite to avoid possible cross contamination issue. Instead of mitigate a risk I basically mixed them already, correct?

Some sources are sayin "If the fish are going to 'cross contaminate' it will show itself within a 48 to 72 hour period. ". It's fourth days and fish are doing great - eating like crazy, not hiding at all etc.
Am I just stupidly lucky?

Villy, where have you started to see an issue with your German fish? BTW this red Checkerboard looks gorgeous.

[Iminit]

Pablos I did what you did. For me I added my first 6 into a 45 that still had the Cory’s from my store bought. No problems. When a month latter I added them to the main tank I picked a hero fish and added first. Just to be sure and I had no problems :). So far my Hans have been great! Pic of my Hans checkerboard.129020

[pablos]

Maybe it's marketing than only ...
Your discus looks great, but Anubias might require some additional care.

[Iminit]

Lol yeah plants are hurting a bit. Anubias always seems to get bba on it. It’s still putting out leaves so it’s ok :).

[Vinni Smith]

I just got my 2 fish from Miranda & Josie at Chicago Discus.
Absolutely fabulous!
They look even better in person than in the pics.
They acclimated well and are acting very good in their new digs.

Those girls run a tight ship and I hope they are in business for a long, long time.
It is nothing but a pleasure dealing with them.

[farebox]

After reading this thread, I gave some thought of adding my five Red Alenquer discus from Chicago Discus to my 125-gallon tank with 10 Hans discus. Mind you I had the Red Alenquers in QT for 30 days and they displayed no problems. Made the move and boom, four days later the Hans discus got sick! Moved the Red alenquers out and lost two Hans fish. Now my 125-tank is in a turmoil. Dosed the whole with Fritz ParaCleanse. The bottom line is I was a complete fool for mixing these fish together. Never again will I do this. Good luck to all you folks who do mix discus from different suppliers who ever they may be.

[Vinni Smith]

After reading this thread, I gave some thought of adding my five Red Alenquer discus from Chicago Discus to my 125-gallon tank with 10 Hans discus. Mind you I had the Red Alenquers in QT for 30 days and they displayed no problems. Made the move and boom, four days later the Hans discus got sick! Moved the Red alenquers out and lost two Hans fish. Now my 125-tank is in a turmoil. Dosed the whole with Fritz ParaCleanse. The bottom line is I was a complete fool for mixing these fish together. Never again will I do this. Good luck to all you folks who do mix discus from different suppliers who ever they may be.

So sorry to hear this Bro.

Nancy and I have been talking this subject over at length.
It seems to always be the German fish that fall ill.
I really think it is because they are raised inside, in perfect, sterile conditions.
Then they have to come out into real life.
That does not always end well.
We are doing the same as humans. We don't let our kids eat mud like we did. Etc.
I often wonder about these folks driving down the road with masks and gloves on.
If they do that for 2 years, I am afraid they will be in for a rude awakening when they finally stop.
That is how our immune system works. It has to be exercised.


If I ever do German fish again, they will be alone. Period.

Just my thoughts.

[peewee1]

Garlic contains compounds that help the immune system fight germs . Whole garlic contains a compound called alliin. When garlic is crushed or chewed, this compound turns into allicin the main active ingredient in garlic. I consume about 1/2 minced garlic per day. Some add garlic to their fish food so I wonder if the garlic has the same affect for fish immune as it does for humans. The German discus must have a weaker immune than do Asian. Recall when the Brits first came to America for Thanksgiving dinner that afterwards all of the indigenous people got sick and died from all of the foreign sicknesses they did not have. I suspect that some of those that came to new American were Germans. None were Asians. Hmmmmm.

[pablos]

Garlic is good not only for humans it’s exactly the same effect for fish, see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228828520_The_effect_of_garlic_Allium_sativum_on_g rowth_and_immune_responses_of_hybrid_tilapia_Oreoc hromis_niloticusOreochromis_aureus

I’m adding garlic to my beef (lamb in my case) heart mix, so maybe it’s the reason that I see no issue with my German fish (apart of the fact that they are growing too fast), even if they are swinging in ex-Asian discus tank.

“In conclusion, the present study documented that 0.5 g/kg supplementation of garlic had significantly improved leucocyte count, respiratory burst, phagocytic activity, phagocytic index and lysozyme activity, indicating the immunostimulant properties of garlic in juvenile hybrid tilapia. Juvenile hybrid tilapia fed of garlic 1 g/kg showed no improvement in lysozyme activity, phagocytic activity and phagocytic index which indicate that the immunostimulant properties of garlic seem to disappear at high concentration.”

[famtsberg]

Nancy and I have been talking this subject over at length.
It seems to always be the German fish that fall ill.
I really think it is because they are raised inside, in perfect, sterile conditions.
Then they have to come out into real life.
That does not always end well.
We are doing the same as humans. We don't let our kids eat mud like we did. Etc.
I often wonder about these folks driving down the road with masks and gloves on.
If they do that for 2 years, I am afraid they will be in for a rude awakening when they finally stop.
That is how our immune system works. It has to be exercised.


If I ever do German fish again, they will be alone. Period.

Just my thoughts.

I agree bro, as a nurse that has studied the immune system its like everything else. It needs to be used. Look at the Indians or Pacific islanders. They were decimated by diseases Europeans were immune to for years. The German fish are raised in a virtually sterile environment. The Asian fish are basically the Europeans showing up to the tropical island. They are healthy but as soon as the islanders say hi, POW right in the kisser. Makes sense to me.

[Iminit]

Wait a minute peewee are you blaming this on the pilgrims?? And come on everybody know the cook on the mayflower was Asian!
Now back to the topic :). I too feed my discus a garlic food. Nutri diet discus flakes use garlic as an ingredient. Wonder if that the reason for my success?

[bluelagoon]

The purpose for garlic in fish food is to keep intestinal parasites at bay.

[Willie]

We just went through a whole discussion about how Asian discus had weakened immune systems because they were raised in yellow powder. Now we've made a complete U-turn and concluded that European discus are weak because they're raised in sterile conditions. Then we cite a study which is cleverly worded to imply more than the data warrants.

“In conclusion, the present study documented that 0.5 g/kg supplementation of garlic had significantly improved leucocyte count, respiratory burst, phagocytic activity, phagocytic index and lysozyme activity, indicating the immunostimulant properties of garlic in juvenile hybrid tilapia. Juvenile hybrid tilapia fed of garlic 1 g/kg showed no improvement in lysozyme activity, phagocytic activity and phagocytic index which indicate that the immunostimulant properties of garlic seem to disappear at high concentration.”

As a scientist with many publications, my conclusion is that these researchers could not find any improvement in disease resistance. But practically speaking, you can't publish a paper on negative results, so they had to identify some indications which may or may not have anything to do with anything. Many ingredients stimulate the immune system that have absolutely no effect on resistance to disease. The entire supplement industry is built on this type of hype.

I'm not writing to slam anyone, but to caution against jumping to conclusions.

[peewee1]

Wait a minute peewee are you blaming this on the pilgrims?? And come on everybody know the cook on the mayflower was Asian!
Now back to the topic :). I too feed my discus a garlic food. Nutri diet discus flakes use garlic as an ingredient. Wonder if that the reason for my success?

When the Pilgrims crash landed at Plymouth Rock there on Lawn Guyland they gave sickness to the Indians right after the Thanksgiving dinner. Is what I meant. In the discus world the Indians are the German discus and the Pilgrims are the Asian discus. The Thanksgiving dinner would be Al's fdbw. I am interested in the Nutri flakes where do I get them? How are the Kenny fish doing? I have not seen photos yet.

[Iminit]

Peewee your message thing was full last time I checked. New fish look great but are very skittish!! They dash around the tank like crazy. They’re eating. The reds are real bullies. Constantly chasing the blues. 129084129085. The nutri diet. I bought off eBay.129086
And as to the Asian discus it’s not like you can mix different Asian discus. Some may be immune to some things but not what the guy down the road is breeding. As of now my Hans discus do seem the strongest I have.

[Willie]

...And come on everybody know the cook on the mayflower was Asian!..

If they had an Asian cook, turkey would actually have flavor.

[peewee1]

If they had an Asian cook, turkey would actually have flavor.

If the Mayflower cook was an Asian then the Pilgrims would have been eating a duck. I live turkey very much. And I do not get it very often. The kids, Little Ricky and Ellie Mae's, mom does not like fooling with it. So I cheat on her by going over to the neighbors and load my belly on bird of my dreams.

[peewee1]

'thanks for the photos! And the garlic food. I cleared out my box thanks for the heads up. Those are nice looking discus you got from Kenny.

[farebox]

Well I lost all 10 discus from Hans since introducing the 5 red alequers from Chicago discus in my 125-gallon tank. A very hard lesson learned here folks by mixing discus. At a crossroads now about keeping any discus fish in the future, the 5 red alquers fish from Chicago discus are doing fine for right now. I'm out, love and peace to all.

[dornblaser]

Well I lost all 10 discus from Hans since introducing the 5 red alequers from Chicago discus in my 125-gallon tank. A very hard lesson learned here folks by mixing discus. At a crossroads now about keeping any discus fish in the future, the 5 red alquers fish from Chicago discus are doing fine for right now. I'm out, love and peace to all.

That is absolutely frightening, I am sorry to hear of your loss. I have lost a few discus in the past but since I have been buying discus from my current source they all are thriving. I think that there is something to be said for buying from a single source if you only have 1 - 2 discus tanks.

[captainandy]

Sorry for your loss.

[Johnny95132]

That's a tough loss to bear. I can empathize with losing a lot of discus at once. I also made the mistake of mixing Hans with asian discus, and I could only watch as my 15 Hans discus withered away into nothing the weeks after putting them in the tank. I had to take time off from the hobby too. It seems as though discus are either thriving or dying for me. Hope you'll feel better about it soon.

[Iminit]

Sorry to here Roland. This is heartbreaking. As of now I have 8 3-4” Hans that I’ve had for a few months now that I was planning to add my new Kenny’s discus too. Last year I added 2 uncle sams to 6 Hans with no problems. Not sure what I’m doing now. Is it all Asian discus or just some? As in do some Asian breeders do it differently?

[pablos]

Even if I mixed bacteria, from tank, filter, plant my German discus are doing great and growing like a crazy (5 feeds per day and 90% WC daily)129153

[bobsmo]

As an US expat living in CZ for numerous years now, I can add to the question my own experiences.

LFS here import discus from Asia. However, being only 90 min away from Dresden, I can get Stendker discus quite easily. Also, Alexander Piwowarski ships here overnight no issues.

I have tried several times to keep the Discus from the lfs/Asia and the Stendker or Piwowarski discus at the same time (always separate though for the Strendker / Piwowarski).

And each time (i've tried about 4x) , the DE discus, be they Stendker or Piwowarski, die off after several weeks.

The first week usually they look great, are eating, and interacting (especially the Stendker...they are used to people it's clear). Then, after one or two weeks, you can notice that they stop eating and the interaction from them drops off immensely.

Then a few more weeks goes by, and they start to lose their color and within a day or two of that, they are gone. I've tried medicating, pre-medicating, etc, all to no avail. A costly experience to say the least.

LFS/Asian discus , are just fine though through it all.

For me, they just do not go together. And it's a pity, as the Stendker and Piwowarski strains are gorgeous v the local lfs/Asians one here.

So after trying 4x, I personally adhere to the statement, and next step will be to setup a Stendker only tank, but that will take awhile. Or maybe Piwowarski, not sure. At least with Piwowarski, you can get them much bigger already.

[Vinni Smith]

As an US expat living in CZ for numerous years now, I can add to the question my own experiences.

LFS here import discus from Asia. However, being only 90 min away from Dresden, I can get Stendker discus quite easily. Also, Alexander Piwowarski ships here overnight no issues.

I have tried several times to keep the Discus from the lfs/Asia and the Stendker or Piwowarski discus at the same time (always separate though for the Strendker / Piwowarski).

And each time (i've tried about 4x) , the DE discus, be they Stendker or Piwowarski, die off after several weeks.

The first week usually they look great, are eating, and interacting (especially the Stendker...they are used to people it's clear). Then, after one or two weeks, you can notice that they stop eating and the interaction from them drops off immensely.

Then a few more weeks goes by, and they start to lose their color and within a day or two of that, they are gone. I've tried medicating, pre-medicating, etc, all to no avail. A costly experience to say the least.

LFS/Asian discus , are just fine though through it all.

For me, they just do not go together. And it's a pity, as the Stendker and Piwowarski strains are gorgeous v the local lfs/Asians one here.

So after trying 4x, I personally adhere to the statement, and next step will be to setup a Stendker only tank, but that will take awhile. Or maybe Piwowarski, not sure. At least with Piwowarski, you can get them much bigger already.

Yep. My experience exactly.

It is indeed a shame because I love the German fish as well.

From now on, I am sticking with Asian fish from Miranda at Chicago Discus and Sun Pets thru my lfs. Both are tough as nails and beautiful.

[Iminit]

Does anyone else have success stories of mixing? I seem to have done it with no problem at all. I didn’t know it was a problem till I joined this site. In my 125 5 of my fish are store bought. These I would guess are Asian because that where most lfs get there fish. If not than they are local bred. 2 of my fish are from Uncle Sams and we know they are Asian and the last 6 are from Hans. Funny thing a lot are breeding (laying eggs) but none have crossed lines. All within there groups.129254

[Vinni Smith]

Does anyone else have success stories of mixing? I seem to have done it with no problem at all. I didn’t know it was a problem till I joined this site. In my 125 5 of my fish are store bought. These I would guess are Asian because that where most lfs get there fish. If not than they are local bred. 2 of my fish are from Uncle Sams and we know they are Asian and the last 6 are from Hans. Funny thing a lot are breeding (laying eggs) but none have crossed lines. All within there groups.129254

Dude. I love your blue fish!

[CliffsDiscus]

I have no problem mixing even breeding, the
key is not to have any infectious disease going around.

Cliff

[Iminit]

Well I made the move today. Added my weakest Hans to the 4 Kenny’s I got a month ago. Hoping this goes well!! Also hoping this doesn’t go the other way and the Kenny’s discus get sick. Never thought of that before I made the move. So my fingers are crossed.129336. The Hans is a white leopard that was way behind on growing. It’s eating and solid but does seem to have stopped growing.

[Iminit]

Day one the little guy is doing good and seems to like his new tank mates :).129361

[Vinni Smith]

They look really nice bro.

[SpeedDiscus]

hmm, this is all very interesting. I only have my original eight I bought that were locally bred from Piwow stock, so I haven't run into this issue yet.

It seems so odd to me that seemingly healthy fish from two different sources are so incompatible. You would think as long as the fish are healthy and are disease free it would be an issue.

fish look good, iminit, i hope all continues to go well.

[Iminit]

Day 5 and all is well. Little guy was hardly eating before with the rest of the Hans discus. But now is eating regular. 129401129402

[Vinni Smith]

His eye looks more confident than the picture before.

[Iminit]

Well it’s been over a week and all is good. What’s the consensus? Can I move them or should I give them another week. My plan is to move them into the 75. Move some tanks around closing some and putting the new 125 where the 75 is and getting that tank ready and acclimated. Than moving all the new discus into the 125.129427

[peewee1]

Tom, will any of the rearrangements impact the location of baby Big Ben?

[Iminit]

Well Big Ben will no longer have a tank under it. That’s about it :).

[danotaylor]

Tom I am very happy things are going well with your hero fish QT, but I would wait at least 4, but preferably 6 weeks, before you put them all together. It's your call, but for me it's not worth the risk to prematurely complete the hero fish strategy :thumbsup:

[peewee1]

Well Big Ben will no longer have a tank under it. That’s about it :).

My concern would be that should there be no tank under it then should it fall from the wall during a violent lawn guyland earth quake there would no be a soft landing spot for baby ben. Maybe at least a pillow or dog's bed below to serve to soften the landing?

[Iminit]

Thanks Dan. I just want to move them out of the 45. Would like to get them into a bigger tank. I will wait till I set up the 125. I’ll put the Hans fish in there and move these guy to the 75. Want these guys to grow.

[two utes]

Looking great Tom. If i were you i would hold off on the move a little longer. Id hate to see all your hard work come undone

[danotaylor]

Sounds like a staging good plan mate :thumbsup:

[Iminit]

Still doing good :)129505

[pablos]

I have one Alenquer, which I start to worry about and think about potential cross contamination issue.

Some time during a day it is dark an literally in next minute become light brown. I don’t see a pattern, but it changes colours quite often during the day. It’s maybe 50% dark and 50% light brown.

Eating as I would not give food for weeks. Fish might have a different perception, but I do 5 feeds per day, 90% daily water change + cleaning after feeding time.

[Michael A]

129018129019

Good Point Andy. One or the other, once you learn that, are plenty of varieties.

BTW, I have another small shipment coming from Miranda at Chicago Discus. Scheduled to arrive by 10:30 AM tomorrow. Two 5" red Checkerboard PB. Nancy just loves those.
We like the Blue Diamond as well. Just waiting for her to get some 5" in stock.

those are beautiful discus you got there. Nice round shape, good defined pattern and intense color.

[Iminit]

So an interesting development. I moved 2 Hans on Monday into the 125. Yesterday I added 2 of Kenny’s and 2 more of Hans. All the blues. So today much to my surprise the Kenny’s discus don’t look to good. Go figure? Me thinking the Hans discus were going to have problems! Pics of Kennys129721129722 does seem like both have developed discus pimples overnight. They are swimming around and chasing the Hans but don’t look to good. The Hans look like nothings changed129723129724. That’s a reflection on the top fin.

[AquaticNerd]

That many pimples overnight? Sounds like ICH to me.

I've never had issues with Kenny's discus, but you should always be careful when adding discus from different sources - I typically follow the "hero fish" method. You could easily have gotten some fish who are immune or more tolerant of a certain disease and introduction of new fish that don't have that tolerance become infected.

[Iminit]

Lol you have to read from earlier. I did the hero fish :). 1 Hans to 4 Kenny’s. All was fine. Don’t think it’s ick temp is 86 and those 2 are the only ones with it. There are also some rummie noses in the tank that are fine. Will change water again tonight and wait it out.

[AquaticNerd]

Ahh, I see that you added one of Hans' fish about 5 weeks ago. My apologies that I missed that post in your thread. The strange wrapping that occurs in some posts made me miss the text. :)

Water change is a good start, but I'd still keep a close eye on it. I don't think I've ever seen discus pimples show up in that quantity in a 24hour period. Best of luck! :)

[coralbandit]

Lol you have to read from earlier. I did the hero fish :). 1 Hans to 4 Kenny’s. All was fine. Don’t think it’s ick temp is 86 and those 2 are the only ones with it. There are also some rummie noses in the tank that are fine. Will change water again tonight and wait it out.

Interesting how this happens .Most reading this thread have come to expect the Germans to be the effected ...
Good luck man .

[seanyuki]

Rotated

129725

129726

129727

129728

[Iminit]

Thanks Francis!! Did that from my phone on the train with pics my distraught wife sent me. Hard to get pics. The 2 Kenny’s are hiding. Only one has the spots. The other has a scrape on its side. Im thinking they didn’t like the move!

[Vinni Smith]

Interesting how this happens .Most reading this thread have come to expect the Germans to be the effected ...
Good luck man .

My experience is that it is always the German fish that succumb.
My Asian fish seem much stronger.
Not everyone's experience but that is mine.

SO interesting, Iminit that you have the opposite results.
I wonder why.
Water maybe???

[Iminit]

For reference here they are before the move129729 and a few days before129730

[Vinni Smith]

Those German Wonders are amazing looking fish!

[Iminit]

Well all worked out well so far :). Even the 2 stressed Kenny’s have come to life. Everybody’s in the 125.
http://youtu.be/bTL1toDOcXk

[Iminit]

And here they are eating
http://youtu.be/sdZ5_mIx1fQ

[Vinni Smith]

Is that FD Tubefex worms?

[danotaylor]

Looking great Tom! :thumbsup:

[peewee1]

Tom, why is there always a cup or two sitting atop the tanks? Lawnguyland Pizzwater Select beer by chance?

[Iminit]

Fdbw Vinnie. Come on peewee you need new material:rolleyes2:. One thing I’m noticing my discus do not like the flavor of the California black worms. There eating but not attacking like they do Als. Must be something extra in those Australian black worm :).

[Iminit]

Pictures of the 2 blues that were all stressed. Added nothing to the water just changed 50% every other day.129769129770. Both look fine. Black bars were there in the 45 before.

[tacks]

looking good Ed

[AquaticNerd]

Looks great Tom!

[Iminit]

All doing well after the mix!!130074130075

[Vinni Smith]

That tank is BEAUTIFUL my friend!

[seanyuki]

Rotated

130076

130077

[pablos]

Initially I wanted to mix my German and Asian discus and I was thinking that cross contamination might by just bull*** talk to say “buy only my discus”.

After very long and educative discussion with Stendker support and maintance team I changed my mind.

Fist cross contamination might happen, if you are lucky you might not lose a fish, but there were cases where people lost the whole stock (even 50 jumbo size pieces). They shared with me some devastating stories :(
I see people there are no average fish keepers. Majority of you know subject well, take care about discus greatly! You create them a perfect environment: water change, temperature, filtration, observation and even medication... but it’s now how others treat their fish. With your way of caring I think the risk of cross contamination is much lesser to expect.

Secondly, and I was thinking “even if I lost 1 or 2, than they will be fine”, but it’s not the case either. It what Stendker says about differences between strains.

We do 50% WC every other day, or others even 100% daily. Germans need 30% weekly only. By keeping Asians we want to have nitrate as low as possible (mine never exceed 10ppm), since German prefers ~100pm. Even in some old forum tread one of the SD member have been visiting hatchery and Mr Stendker said that NO3 is out of scale in the thanks. Lower GH/KH, or RO ... not really they add minerals, or crashed coral to bump it so adult fish show better colours.

Germans require also a different diet.
For instance they can't digest worms properly and causes them internal irritations, since for Asians it might be a daily food.

Lastly fighting with every possible pest. Not with Germans - they have very strong immunity system, so they can fight it (to some extent).

So finally I will NOT mix my German and Asian discus. Of course it’s your choice and yours might be still fine, but I would not recommend it.

[tacks]

Suggest a diet for German discus. Thanks Ed

[danotaylor]

Sauerkraut ;)

[peewee1]

From Stendker. "We strongly advise not to mix our STENDKER Discus Fish with Asian offspring or wild catches!
Animals from different breedings / sources can have different strains of bacteria and should therefore, because of the danger of disease introduction, not be socialized with each other! If you already have our STENDKER Discus Fish, you can breed animals from our breeding farm at any time without hesitation, even in different colors and sizes. We guarantee that our discus fish are free of tapeworms and the so-called discus search!"
And..."With little expenditure of time, approx. 1 hour per week for 30 percent water change, glass cleaning and feeding is usually sufficient. Holidays are also possible without care and feeding, the temperature reduction to WINTERMODE can be used to provide a health-promoting fasting cure for the animals.
Specialist pet shops often offer inexpensive 160-180 litre complete aquarium combinations for beginners. These are ideal for breeding a discus group, which should consist of at least 10 discus fish, or for keeping a discus pair permanently, which however should already have a size of at least 14 cm. This aquarium can also be used later as a quarantine aquarium.
We recommend starting with 8 cm STENDKER Discus Fish for keeping in groups, as they are already approx. 4 months old and very robust, even suitable for beginners. However, the animals should then be transferred to a larger aquarium (ideally 12-15 adult discus fish in 120 gallons/450 litres) after one year at the latest." One fish for 8 to 10 gallons.

[seanyuki]

You can mix Asian and German discus but not without following strict quarantine procedures. Always quarantine everything. It doesn't matter where it comes from.


Success stories: Mixing Asian and Stendker Discus?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?113584-Success-stories-Mixing-Asian-and-Stendker-Discus

[Iminit]

Well I’ve done it in both my tanks. Fish were qt for over a month both times with 1 opposite fish added. Both tanks are doing good as of now. First tank was over a year ago. 2 from uncle sams added to Hans and store bought. Second tank is explained in this thread. So it will work. Got to say the store bought I would say would have held the most problems and the Hans were fine when added. So with quarantine for me it’s worked. Next the Hans fish just grow faster and seem so much stronger. When I added the Kenny’s to the new tank the reds were the biggest but Hans fish are growing bigger. 130079

[glyn]

Perhaps not all of the Stendker information is marketing. Here in the UK we have a slightly different perspective on the Stendker versus Asian-sourced discus debate.

Firstly, there was a real problem, historically, here in the UK, with Asian-sourced discus being often liable to carry disease. Thankfully, this is much less of a problem, and we now have some ace Asian discus suppliers, but memories do remain...

Secondly, Stendker discus are acclimatised to harder water than most Asian-sourced discus are accustomed to. This is an important issue here in the UK. Some of the less-populated parts of the UK [eg., Scotland, Cornwall/Devon, etc] have very soft water, ideal for Asian-sourced or wild discus. However, much of the highly-populated parts of the UK [most of the SE, London, etc] have very hard water. My tap water, for example, comes off the pure chalk hills of the South Downs. [No, I don't know why these hills are called "Downs"; I walk on them most weeks and they seem to be more ups than downs.]

Thirdly, there has often been a problem with many local fish shops in the UK carrying a few, rather disconsolate-looking discus. [It still happens.] Stendker, by contrast, have sold to the UK through specialist discus suppliers that have kept to high standards.

Consequently, many serious UK discus keepers tend to think carefully about this particular issue. Yes, there may be some element of marketing hyperbole in Stendker's information, but the European versus Asian-sourced discus distinction has some merit still here in the UK...

Of course, whether German-sourced discus will now be more expensive as a result of the wretched Brexit fiasco is another issue. Better not to go there at the moment :-(

[captainandy]

You sound like you work for Stendker.
This thread has come to focus on whether or not to mix

[glyn]

You sound like you work for Stendker.
This thread has come to focus on whether or not to mix


[1] No, I'm a retired teacher who's never worked for any aquatic firm, ever. [They do look to be a firm worth working for though, and, of course, German workers are treated much more equitably than those in either the UK or the US...]

[2] The thread started out commenting on how far Stendker's information could be viewed through the prism of "just marketing". Still, interesting reaction to my first post on this forum.

[peewee1]

I would agree. Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will continue to ask and learn as you would hope for any student to do. In the meantime perhaps choose to ignore those who seem pompous.

[Iminit]

Lol. I’m not sure what German workers have to do with this thread :). To me if you buy from the professional breeders they can be mixed. Done the correct way as described in this thread it can be done. Hans discus Kenny’s discus and Uncle Sams Discus have all worked for me. So with all the different variations these sellers offer I will stick with them. Earlier in this thread 2 members had problems with a breeder who’s fish seems to have cause the mixing problem. Both mixed with Hans and the Hans died. So I would not recommend mixing Hans with that breeder :). Those as far as I remember were the only breeders mentioned.

[Willie]

Perhaps not all of the Stendker information is marketing....Better not to go there at the moment :-(

Interesting comment and a welcomed perspective.

However, the problem I have with Stendker marketing is the underlying racism. There are very high quality Asian discus and very poor quality ones. Their suggestion is that nothing from Asia should be mixed with Stendkers.

Let's turn this around. If the Asians were to recommend against Stendker discus because there's some garbage coming out of eastern Europe, would that be equally acceptable?

[Iminit]

Lol Willie you hit the nail on the head!! Be great if you could just like a comment or add a thumbs up :).

Next question if German workers were mixed with an Asian work force or UK or US would they struggle and die off? :) food for thought:).

[klr-dude]

what you could do is send them an e-mail , tell them you have 20 asian discus in your show tank but want to buy 10 full size discus see what they say !
hehehe !

[glyn]

I would agree. Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will continue to ask and learn as you would hope for any student to do. In the meantime perhaps choose to ignore those who seem pompous.

Thanks for the welcome - much appreciated! :-)

[peewee1]

Thanks for the welcome - much appreciated! :-)

I have traveled in the UK. What general area are you?

[glyn]

I have traveled in the UK. What general area are you?

West Sussex, near the English Channel - I'm between the South Downs and the sea. Despite it being relatively crowded, it's a good walking area, with some useful aquatic shops within driving distance.

[tacks]

Glyn Welcome to the form Ed

[peewee1]

West Sussex, near the English Channel - I'm between the South Downs and the sea. Despite it being relatively crowded, it's a good walking area, with some useful aquatic shops within driving distance.

I traveled from London to Dover to the east of you. From there to Brussels. Dover, white cliffs as they are called, are chalk based as well. What discus do you keep?

[glyn]

I'm what could be described as "between discus" at the moment. Currently I have a 500-litre soft coral marine tank. However, my other half has always preferred discus, and I still hanker after the discus tank I used to have. No pics remaining of that, unfortunately, although here's a pic of my present set-up:


130101



Despite being retired, this kind of tank does hoover up a great deal of my time. Thus, I'm pondering a return to the relative simplicity of a large discus tank, especially since the supply of good-quality discus to the UK is much-improved with places like Devotedly Discus and Chen's Discus not too far away.

[seanyuki]

Both discus sources are good......Devotedly Discus (Stendker) and Chen Discus (Na Discus).



I'm what could be described as "between discus" at the moment. Currently I have a 500-litre soft coral marine tank. However, my other half has always preferred discus, and I still hanker after the discus tank I used to have. No pics remaining of that, unfortunately, although here's a pic of my present set-up:


130101



Despite being retired, this kind of tank does hoover up a great deal of my time. Thus, I'm pondering a return to the relative simplicity of a large discus tank, especially since the supply of good-quality discus to the UK is much-improved with places like Devotedly Discus and Chen's Discus not too far away.

[tacks]

Your tank is beautiful Ed

[glyn]

Thanks! At the risk of sounding falsely modest, I do have to confess that my corals have a mind of their own - I've had to let them create their own aquascape. When I had a discus tank I could reassure myself that the aquascape was all my own doing, and the plants I had there tended to behave themselves. With soft corals, you're never sure what ones will like the tank, and where they will choose to grow. I find that you have to go with them, as it were. I alawys felt much more in control when I had a discus tank.

[Discus-Hans]

If this all was just a marketing point, I would fire the person responsible for the marketing. Remember about 90% of the Discus in the USA are none German Discus (called by most "Asian" Discus), this means you tell 90% of the Discus keepers NOT to buy the Stendker Discus. Think not a real strong marketing point.

[Iminit]

After rereading a lot of this thread I read that German discus have problems digesting black worm. First I’ve read this. That’s all mine eat is fdbw. Some flakes and pellets. But mostly black worms. Now I try to buy small discus. My Hans came as 2.5” fish and were started on fdbw from the start. So they digest them fine. But if you were to buy bigger older fish yes I could see this being a problem. Their system has only been digesting beef heart. Another thing I read a lot is don’t add small discus to a planted tank buy bigger discus and add them. Well if you add 2” discus to a planted tank that’s what there used to. Add a 5+“ discus to a planted tank and you’d have to believe you’d have a stressed out fish! Mine all grew in planted tanks.

[Discus-Hans]

Don't know where you saw that Tom but if a vegetarian eats a good steak, he or she will not die lol

[pablos]

Actually it’s not about black but bloodworms
https://www.diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/333,0,food-in-general,index,0.html

[Iminit]

Ok sorry :). Yes blood worms fed daily can be a problem! Blood worms are a treat.

[farebox]

Everybody got a theory on mixing different sources of discus, personally, if I had to do over, I would never mix them in the same tank period. I lost 10 discus fish from Hans in a snap of a finger, after adding just five three-inch from Chicago Discus. The very sad part is that the fish lost I raised from three inches to adult size over a period of three years. Man what a loss! Just my two cents, but everybody's tank is different, and people tend to do what they want to do with their fish, good luck on all that mix the fish.

[Willie]

Amen to that. Every case is unique and there's no logic to such generalizations.

Back when I had many more discus, I was able to acquire really nice Red Turquoise from two different sources. I kept them separate and raised them in a double stacked 55-gallon setup, one batch on top, the other batch on bottom. They were separated for almost a year before they reached maturity. I mixed them together for breeding and they got sick. Not horribly sick, but they turned grey, sank to the bottom and compressed their fins. I lost a few, but the rest recovered.

What did I learn from this?

1. Use the least desirable fish to test for pathogens before putting them together. Quarantine alone is insufficient.
2. Don't have a quarantine tank? Get out of the hobby while you can...

[Discus-Hans]

Amen to that. Every case is unique and there's no logic to such generalizations.

What did I learn from this?

1. Use the least desirable fish to test for pathogens before putting them together. Quarantine alone is insufficient.
2. Don't have a quarantine tank? Get out of the hobby while you can...

Willie, people "advanced" in the hobby some times forget that there still is a (big) group of people out there who just have a tank to enjoy in their living room. Not a basement full or tanks all over the house, just 1 tank. This is a big group of people I sell to. For those people it's just better not to mix, who ever they buy from, just buy from 1 source. My simple opinion.

[pablos]

Hans ... it’s the greatest summary of this thread:) !!!

[Iminit]

Lol I think that’s the way this thread started. With Stendker saying don’t mix there discus with Asian discus. Hans your right. If people just bought from one seller! But the people with the one tank are the ones who are having the problem. Because they’re just fish keepers. Not breeders or growers. These are I’d say the bulk of the hobby. They buy what they like. Most don’t have a qt tank and have no idea of this problem till their old fish are all black. I qt everything. Just from experience with new fish bringing ick into an existing tank. Most people buy their first discus from a pet store. Than buy online. No qt and their fish die. It’s not just German to Asian it’s more seller to seller. It’s a shame. On the Facebook site there’s at least 3 people dealing with this now. All are keepers who joined after getting discus. Seems like nobody joins before :(. Didn’t have this problem in the 90s. Discus did get sick but it was usually only one and had something to do with live blackworms. Once I stoped feeding them I rarely had problems.

[Willie]

People with just one tank, people who don't change water, people who feed black worms... None of them are going to succeed in the hobby anyway.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Willie, people "advanced" in the hobby some times forget that there still is a (big) group of people out there who just have a tank to enjoy in their living room. Not a basement full or tanks all over the house, just 1 tank. This is a big group of people I sell to. For those people it's just better not to mix, who ever they buy from, just buy from 1 source. My simple opinion.

I really appreciate what Hans has written here. Thank you Hans.