A thing I hoped but secretly never thought I'd actually see: ATTACHMENT!!!

[Rolla P]

Ok so you'll have to excuse the exclamation points but it is without a doubt a truly beautiful thing to witness in real life. I've seen it on a number of youtube vids but, while trying to work out the conundrum of discus breeding, it happened.

I have never been beyond this point with discus so feel free or should I say please feel free to drop any nuggets of wisdom on my next steps here.

A couple of semi blurry pics and a video. Please click the links.

https://i.imgur.com/RYSBn4X.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/49RDWxm.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/aF8gpY3.mp4

[fljones3]

Congratulations!
If you post more about your tank, occupants, size, water parameters, BB or not, etc. you might get more assistance. Also, under the breeding section is lots of information!

[danotaylor]

Awesome. Video won't play for me though :(

[coralbandit]

Congrats ! It is awesome to see in person for sure . ENJOY~!
I used a syringe to target feed the fry BBS while they were still on the parents .
Some of the BBS stuck to the parents slime so the fry got the 'incidentally' at first .

[Rolla P]

Congratulations!
If you post more about your tank, occupants, size, water parameters, BB or not, etc. you might get more assistance. Also, under the breeding section is lots of information!

180L bow. Bare tank. Water is down to a third to help with the attachment process. 1 male/1 female.

I'm wondering when I should increase the water and by how much. They haven't been attached more than 4 hours.



Congrats ! It is awesome to see in person for sure . ENJOY~!
I used a syringe to target feed the fry BBS while they were still on the parents .
Some of the BBS stuck to the parents slime so the fry got the 'incidentally' at first .

I'm going to try feeding BBS eggs as well as live bbs but I'm unsure of when to start the feeding and Water changes?


Awesome. Video won't play for me though :(

Here is a new vid. Click the link and it should open on imgur

https://imgur.com/a/Rr4ajMS

[Iminit]

Corgrats Rolla!! That is a fine site!!

[LizStreithorst]

There is nothing more beautiful than that sight.

[Rolla P]

This being the first time I've ever got to this stage I am confused about a number of things.

1. While I understand the number of feeds I should do and the number water changes daily when/if the fry get older... But at this early stage, while they're feeding on parents and while the water is reduced by two thirds to aid in attachment... When should I start water changing and by how much?

2. When do I start adding baby brine shrimp eggs and/or live baby brine shrimp for the fry to feed on?

[LizStreithorst]

Once they are for sure attached you can raise the water level every day during your normal daily WC. Depending on the number of fry the parents are dealing with I start feeding live BBS between day 3 and day 5. In your case day 4 should be just right. To get the babies to eating non live food you should try this stuff made by a guy right here in the States: http://fishguysplace.com/preparedfoods00.html#sf

[Rolla P]

Once they are for sure attached you can raise the water level every day during your normal daily WC. Depending on the number of fry the parents are dealing with I start feeding live BBS between day 3 and day 5. In your case day 4 should be just right. To get the babies to eating non live food you should try this stuff made by a guy right here in the States: http://fishguysplace.com/preparedfoods00.html#sf

Thanks a bunch for the info Liz. I'll start raising the water level today.

Unfortunately that food / Link is a US site and I'm a UK resident.

I read a blog some time ago where a discus keeper swore that "Decap BBS eggs" was more nutritious and caused less deaths (in his opinion of course) than live BBS. I've been searching for that thread for a while now but it was a series of clicks that led me there some time ago and I haven't been able to find it since.

[seanyuki]

Worth trying ARTIFICIAL REARING DISCUS by Cliff Young.


https://www.mondodiscus.com/2007/11/feeding-discus-artificial-rearing-discus-by-cliff-young/

[seanyuki]

As a feed source, decapsulated cysts have a higher energy and nutritional value than live Artemia nauplii as zero energy is consumed in the hatching process and lipids, amino acids, and enzymes are left intact.

https://www.artemiacystsaaa.com/decapsulated-artemia-cyst/






Thanks a bunch for the info Liz. I'll start raising the water level today.

Unfortunately that food / Link is a US site and I'm a UK resident.

I read a blog some time ago where a discus keeper swore that "Decap BBS eggs" was more nutritious and caused less deaths (in his opinion of course) than live BBS. I've been searching for that thread for a while now but it was a series of clicks that led me there some time ago and I haven't been able to find it since.

[LizStreithorst]

The bad thing about decaps is that you don't get the wiggle factor of live. It matters a lot when weaning babies from their parents.

[seanyuki]

Good point Liz that is why I listen to experience people like you....learn from the best.


The bad thing about decaps is that you don't get the wiggle factor of live. It matters a lot when weaning babies from their parents.

[Rolla P]

The bad thing about decaps is that you don't get the wiggle factor of live. It matters a lot when weaning babies from their parents.

Thanks Liz.

That is something I didn't consider. I was focused on the cleanliness of decaps as opposed to live, I might try a mix of the two?

[CliffsDiscus]

Hi, Francis and Liz,
Some good information, I feed mostly live bbs, the fry really like this, but when for some reason one of the bbs doesn't hatch out I will use the
recap bbs. The trick is to soak the decaps in warm water this will soften the shrimp then take a smell test, if it smells
like shrimp it's ready to feed.
I think there were couple of batches(bowls) on mondodiscus.com.

Cliff

[LizStreithorst]

I used to decapsulate my own. It's not that hard. Only takes 10 minutes until they're ready to feed.

[Rolla P]

Unfortunately the fry didn't take to the decap brine at all. And I have no live BBS...

Am I in trouble?

They're still feeding on the parents and look a lot bigger than they did on day 1.

[LizStreithorst]

get some BBS cysts and hatch them now. Your not in trouble yet, but you will be if you don't. The babies need the wiggle factor to lure them from the parents.

[seanyuki]

Discus produce mucus secretions that are used to feed broods of fry.I let my fry eat the mucus for around 15 days to build up their immune system .

[Rolla P]

get some BBS cysts and hatch them now. Your not in trouble yet, but you will be if you don't. The babies need the wiggle factor to lure them from the parents.


Discus produce mucus secretions that are used to feed broods of fry.I let my fry eat the mucus for around 15 days to build up their immune system .

Day 4 and Day 15

4 days have passed and although I'm calm I feel like I'm panicking because I've never been at this point in the hobby. For a long time I was more focused on growing and maintaining healthy fish. I've been doing 2 50% water changes daily and although it's only day 4. the difference between first attachment and now is a sight to see.

That aside, is there any resource which explains or gives a guide as to what I should feed and for how long. I'm sure I've come across posts where people only feed live BBS for a few days. I'm not opposed to allowing the to graze on the slime coat for 2 weeks either. My main goal is discus that are not stunted and grow as expected.

Again, please excuse my inexperience here.

[LizStreithorst]

I start feeding BBS on day 4. After a week I start introducing a couple of feedings of Golden Pearls and Super Fry but I like to continue to feed BBS until the fish loose interest in it which is often a couple of months. I like the leave the kids with the parents as long as the parents aren't bothered by them. This is a longer time for a small spawn and a shorter time for a large spawn. 3 weeks with parents is about normal IMO Hope this helps

[Rolla P]

My male discus... Er... Is trying to get the females attention for another spawn?!?!!

I've watched him transfer the babies to his partner. And I've also seen him zoom away and leave the fry behind. But today, when the fry were on the female, he was doing that very distinctive shake dance. Is this normal?


I start feeding BBS on day 4. After a week I start introducing a couple of feedings of Golden Pearls and Super Fry but I like to continue to feed BBS until the fish loose interest in it which is often a couple of months. I like the leave the kids with the parents as long as the parents aren't bothered by them. This is a longer time for a small spawn and a shorter time for a large spawn. 3 weeks with parents is about normal IMO Hope this helps

I will have this up and running early next week. The equipment from amazon and the eggs from ebay. I'm a little unsure about how to get the desired temperature and maintaining it but I'll take a deep dive on youtube later if I can't find the answer. THis is still all new to me but very exciting.

[Rolla P]

I have purchased the JBL Artemio set and Artemio mix which should be arriving tomorrow.

Quick pic update, I can now see the pectoral fins.

https://i.imgur.com/DEkJLAr.jpg

[danotaylor]

Good for you mate. I can't help, but I am enjoying tracking from a distance of greater than 6' ;)

[Rolla P]

Ok so there's good news and bad news.

My community tank pair spawned and as usual they cut the viable eggs down from over 300 to 100 in the first 3 days. They became wrigglers and the pair began to cull the fry down over the next 3 days while they were on the cone. But on the fourth day...

BOOM

They had attached fry. Very few, less than 15 but when the lights came on they were in parent mode. My tetras switched into a noticeably different mode of behaviour and my discus pair killed about 5 in the space of a few minutes. Literally broke their backs and spat them out, leaving them flailing, not even bothering to eat them.

The tank is a 120G with a jet black background. I did not expect them to get this far let alone attach.

https://i.imgur.com/k9SOWOE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Kgfgeyw.jpg

The good news is that of the 15 I managed to save a few and surrogate them with the pair that have fry. Here's a zoomed in vid that also demonstrates the size difference in the age 1 vs 6 days old.

https://imgur.com/InxRLzO

So in the space of less than a week I've gone from hoping but thinking I'd never see attached fry to two pairs. One of which, despite the reduced numbers managed to get fry attached in a community tank with a jet black background? I consider myself very lucky. With the strongest of possible emphasis on the word lucky

Any advice for the community pair?

[Rolla P]

Really bad news.

Over the past two days I lost some fry. From 71, to 58, to 54 over a 48 hour period. And so today I went to do the night time water change and found my wayward male actively attacking the fry on the side of the female. I think I'm down to 40+

I'm wondering if it's a delay in getting the bbs up and running or if he saw the fry as a hindrance to his next spawn.

Any advice?

[LizStreithorst]

It wasn't because you didn't have bbs. It's usually the female who will unexpectedly turn on the kids but sometimes it's the male. Now that you know what he's like you'll know to remove him early next time you breed the pair.

[Rolla P]

We take a picture a series of pics to count how many are there. Usually 4.

We started losing a few on day 5. Honestly, it seems like he wanted to spawn as I mentioned earlier as he was courting the female while fry were attached. Doing the bow and shaking and displaying while fry weren't on him. But removing him on day 5 is something I'll need to consider next time.

That aside, I have heard that discus fry will eat themselves to death and truth be told, I'm unsure about how much to feed to 40-50 fry I have left. Also, how long does a freshly churned/hatched batch of bbs stay fresh? Once they're hatched, extracted and washed in clean water how long do they keep for?

Again, my apologies for all the novice questions. I'm still trying to weave my way through this.

[Rolla P]

Live baby brine shrimp has been added and again a sight to behold lol. THe fry went from being stuck to mom to a sort of cloud of fry surrounding her. Staying close but definitely eating the shrimp.

Quick vid for anyone that's interested.

https://imgur.com/a/L6Epnhb


If anyone has any info on the question I asked in my last post, I'd be very grateful. I am quite worried about the fry eating themselves to death as well as keeping the newly hatched shrimp.

[LizStreithorst]

Mine have never eaten themselves to death. When they aren't hungry anymore the brine shrimp slowly die and you suck them up when you vacuum the bottom. This is coming from someone who totally overfeeds BBS.

I never store my BBS in the fridge, though it is considered the better way. I make enough for the kids to eat during the day and have another hatchery ready to go when by their next feeding.

[Rolla P]

Thanks for the input Liz. I really and truly appreciate it!

Do you have any thoughts on how many times a day they should get fed? With how quickly they seem to be developing I'm not sure if there is some type of scale or if it's purely by eye,

The female is by herself due to the male deciding to chow down on his offspring and because of that, the live brine seems like a welcome relief to her. But I was worried about over feeding... That is until your latest post.

I appreciate the help as always.

[LizStreithorst]

Some folks feed 5 or 6 times a day. I've never fed more often 3 times a day.

[Rolla P]

I'm grateful as always Liz.

I emptied the the remaining brine shrimp into a container and left it on the aquarium with the intention to refrigerate them as recommended. I didn't. I mistakenly left them out and was shocked to see that they hadn't spoiled and were still dancing about and active. I've done 5/6 small feeds using a 5ml syringe totalling between 10-20ml with each feed.

I'm still eager for a resource that details how to change feeding and what to introduce during these stages. I'm confident in removing the female after 3 weeks and I'm already changing 100% per day via 2 50% water changes.

In some good news, the distinctive red ring has developed around the eyes of most fry. No luck in capturing that via a picture but I'm noting down the changes as they happen. Very excited and still very nervous.

[coralbandit]

Once you see them eating the BBS then you want to sneak in a small amount of fine food like first bites or I use a very fine granule .
I look at it like 'trick training' the fry .They see the action of the BBS and eat like crazy so will then take small food that is mixed in without even thinking about it .

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Rolla, if you feed FDWBs to your adult discus you take some loose or a couple cubes and grind them super fine in a coffee grinder. You want the constancy of dust. Take a teaspoon of the dust and add it to a small amount of warm water. Suck up the worms which settle on the bottom and feed small amounts of these like you are doing with the BBS.

Do not feed the worms which are floating, that is still aborbing water.
Pat

[Rolla P]

Once you see them eating the BBS then you want to sneak in a small amount of fine food like first bites or I use a very fine granule .
I look at it like 'trick training' the fry .They see the action of the BBS and eat like crazy so will then take small food that is mixed in without even thinking about it .

Hey Coral

I tried this earlier in a pistil and mortar but the fry didn't take to it. They basically spat it back out after tasting it. Finicky little beasts!


Hi Rolla, if you feed FDWBs to your adult discus you take some loose or a couple cubes and grind them super fine in a coffee grinder. You want the constancy of dust. Take a teaspoon of the dust and add it to a small amount of warm water. Suck up the worms which settle on the bottom and feed small amounts of these like you are doing with the BBS.

Do not feed the worms which are floating, that is still aborbing water.
Pat

So umm... I'm not a coffee drinker. I can't stand the smell but I'll be Amazon Prime(ing) a coffee grinder the second I'm done responding.

It's weird to see how quickly they burn through food. Their stomachs go from pinkish red back to white within a relatively short space of time. What's clear to me is that even on this site people have their own methods as to what works best in terms of feeding. I've taken to reading the chronological timeline section of this forum to compare and contrast but this thread is actual quite vital.

I do appreciate every bit of help and feedback here. I can't express that enough.

[Rolla P]

I have gone with this coffee grinder

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B083QC7G51/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Given that I prefer feeding FDABW over beef heart I'll consider this a huge development if I can get them onto it as a staple. I also want them to get on the discus flakes too so I'll definitely try that again soon.

[Second Hand Pat]

I have gone with this coffee grinder

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B083QC7G51/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Given that I prefer feeding FDABW over beef heart I'll consider this a huge development if I can get them onto it as a staple. I also want them to get on the discus flakes too so I'll definitely try that again soon.

You will definitely want to add a quality flake food and a small pelleted food to the mix.
Pat

[fljones3]

You could also buy the fines from Al. The babies, in about 4-6 weeks or so will progress to the cubes.


I have gone with this coffee grinder

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B083QC7G51/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Given that I prefer feeding FDABW over beef heart I'll consider this a huge development if I can get them onto it as a staple. I also want them to get on the discus flakes too so I'll definitely try that again soon.

[Rolla P]

I tried the coffee grinded ABW and flake, they didn't take to it at all. So to keep a tally that's a no go on...

1. Decap BBS
2. Grounded FDABW
3. Flake grounded into powder

@flyjones3 I'm not sure what "The fines from Al" is. Could you post a link please.

Cheers.

[seanyuki]

FYI Baby fish food..Freeze Dried Blackworm Fines 100 grams

https://www.aquaticsuppliers.com/product.sc?productId=45&categoryId=1



I tried the coffee grinded ABW and flake, they didn't take to it at all. So to keep a tally that's a no go on...

1. Decap BBS
2. Grounded FDABW
3. Flake grounded into powder

@flyjones3 I'm not sure what "The fines from Al" is. Could you post a link please.

Cheers.

[Rolla P]

Hey @seanyuki

The site says to expect orders delays of 6-8 weeks and I don't think they ship to the UK :(

[seanyuki]

Perhaps order directly from Australia .

https://www.blackworms.com.au/default.asp




Hey @seanyuki

The site says to expect orders delays of 6-8 weeks and I don't think they ship to the UK :(

[Rolla P]

11 days free swimming update. In and out of focus but some clear shots mixed into the brief clip.

https://imgur.com/NVvck1j

What do you guys think?

@seanyuki I do have a supplier here in the UK for the same product, just not pre crushed like I did earlier today.

[Second Hand Pat]

I tried the coffee grinded ABW and flake, they didn't take to it at all. So to keep a tally that's a no go on...

1. Decap BBS
2. Grounded FDABW
3. Flake grounded into powder

@flyjones3 I'm not sure what "The fines from Al" is. Could you post a link please.

Cheers.

I would not mess with the flake for how. Add a little bit of the FDBW dust over the fry and allow it to drift down to the fry. Then add some of the live BBS to float in with the FDBW dust. You may need to do this a few times before the fry will take it.
Pat

[Rolla P]

I would not mess with the flake for how. Add a little bit of the FDBW dust over the fry and allow it to drift down to the fry. Then add some of the live BBS to float in with the FDBW dust. You may need to do this a few times before the fry will take it.
Pat

Noted.

I'll try 4 wee

That aside, I've keep reading on a development called "4 week syndrome" that has me a little spooked. Especially since the potential treatments are all US based and not available here in the UK.

[seanyuki]

You can get praziquantel,formalin and potassium permanganate in the U.K.


https://www.kusuri.co.uk/medications/

HTH

[Rolla P]

I had a little bit of a panic today.

My BBS didn't hatch. I usually feed the female and then add the bbs after the first water change but like I said, there were zero bbs ready. I tried the backup of decap bbs but again they didn't take to it but then I saw another first. They fry were trying to eat bits of the ABW that had fallen to the bottom. So I tried the coffee grinder method Second Hand Pat mentioned...

And BOOM! They started eating it. Another first (for me) to add to my notes.



You can get praziquantel,formalin and potassium permanganate in the U.K.
https://www.kusuri.co.uk/medications/

HTH

I appreciate the link. I'm not sure I understand the "4 Week Syndrome" thing yet but it's good to be able to access some of the treatment that's frequently mentioned. I've heard it can't stunt, kill, or cause other complications but again, I'm not sure exactly what the situation is.

[Rolla P]

Second pair spawned again in their own tank. The male seems more adamant and committed about caring for them in this setup. The female seems a little lost, not that dark, and with 5-10% of the fry attached to her.

https://imgur.com/e2GhcmG

The difference in 1 VS 12 days free swimming is still astounding to me. But more importantly, thanks to this thread I can navigate days 1-12 with a smidgen more confidence than I had 12 days ago.

[coralbandit]

Looking good !

[two utes]

Congratulations on your progress. It sure is amazing to watch, but i particularly love to watch the fry develop and grow into lovely round discs, as well as color up as they do so.
It's good having things documented here, as it sure does give good reference for yourself and others wanting to have a go.

Good luck with the rest of your breeding project.

[Rolla P]

Looking good !

Thanks Coral!


Congratulations on your progress. It sure is amazing to watch, but i particularly love to watch the fry develop and grow into lovely round discs, as well as color up as they do so.
It's good having things documented here, as it sure does give good reference for yourself and others wanting to have a go.

Good luck with the rest of your breeding project.

Second pair have about 30 fry. It's their second attempt at attached fry.

It's weird to see how these things progress. My pairs went from....

1. Eating spawns immediately after spawning
2. Eating spawns within hours, 24, hours, 2 days 3 days, wrigglers day1/2/3

It seems they can get stuck on any stage in the process for months at a time which is why I never thought I'd see fry attached... And now I've got two sets? Tiny spawns in comparison to most of the spawns / tanks I've seen here but I keep pinching myself that they're actually still alive and eating.

[Iminit]

Congrats Rolla! Looks like you are now a breeder :).

[Rolla P]

Congrats Rolla! Looks like you are now a breeder :).

Thanks 86 :) Though not quite a breeder yet lol

I've got to get past the "4 Week syndrome" where some discus keepers seem to start losing their fry...

That aside, I noticed a tiny (and emphasis on tiny) little cichlid like spat over food. I couldn't stop laughing. They really do start young!

[CliffsDiscus]

"4 week syndrome" a few hobbyist that claim to have this but I see that they all have the same problems.

Cliff

[Rolla P]

"4 week syndrome" a few hobbyist that claim to have this but I see that they all have the same problems.

Cliff

My apologies in advance but I don't understand the post. Could you be so kind as to elaborate a little further?

[LizStreithorst]

It's all down to water quality...Every time. At 4 weeks the fry are larger, eating more and pooping more but it they don't get more WC the dread 4 week syndrome attacks.

[danotaylor]

Question; is 4 week syndrome sometimes as a result of gill fluke infestation? The young fry pick up flukes feeding off the bottom of tanks where the adults carry flukes but are able to tolerate them. The fry succumb as the flukes mature and large quantities of fry die off as a result??

[CliffsDiscus]

My apologies in advance but I don't understand the post. Could you be so kind as to elaborate a little further?

Sorry for the short response, but I only have a minute before being log out. Liz and Dan has already answer the major problems. I can add only one other problem that a hobbyist had was his tank was clean but the breeding pair was dirty so he remove the fry in a few days that seem to work. Maybe he should of cleaned up the pair first.

Cliff

[Rolla P]

It's all down to water quality...Every time. At 4 weeks the fry are larger, eating more and pooping more but it they don't get more WC the dread 4 week syndrome attacks.




Sorry for the short response, but I only have a minute before being log out. Liz and Dan has already answer the major problems. I can add only one other problem that a hobbyist had was his tank was clean but the breeding pair was dirty so he remove the fry in a few days that seem to work. Maybe he should of cleaned up the pair first.

Cliff

So often times it's a maintenance thing chalked up to the "4 week syndrome" and opposed to an actual parasite/pathogen?


Question; is 4 week syndrome sometimes as a result of gill fluke infestation? The young fry pick up flukes feeding off the bottom of tanks where the adults carry flukes but are able to tolerate them. The fry succumb as the flukes mature and large quantities of fry die off as a result??

I thought temp kept gill flukes at bay. It's a topic that I definitely have to look into more.

That aside day 14 update: BBS in the tank and I haven't wiped the outside glass in a few days but hopefully you can still see the changes.

https://i.imgur.com/Nj1a54T.jpg

[Rolla P]

So I went to give the female her feed of fdAbw, turned around and saw this new development for the first time.

https://i.imgur.com/BwLQOfF.mp4

[LizStreithorst]

Super duper excellent. Those look like healthy well cared for babies.

The 4 week syndrome is a product of parasite ridden parents often coupled with inadequate maintence. In the best of all possible worlds the parents would have been wormed, treated for hex, and treated for flukes prior to breeding and tank maintence would be perfect.

[Rolla P]

Thanks again Liz for the info.

I have a little bit of an emergency. The female seems to be in some discomfort with the babies picking at her. Is it time to remove her? It's exactly 2 weeks since they went free swimming?

[LizStreithorst]

Yes. Remove her. She'll likely eat the kids otherwise. Your babies are doing exceptionally well. They'll do fine without mom.

[Iminit]

Wow great video! They are hungry little fish!! Thanks for starting this thread. This has been very educational. What you’ve done is great and the help is outstanding.

[Rolla P]

Yes. Remove her. She'll likely eat the kids otherwise. Your babies are doing exceptionally well. They'll do fine without mom.

It's really weird experience and I was very apprehensive about the move, but she was being chased by the fry lol.


Wow great video! They are hungry little fish!! Thanks for starting this thread. This has been very educational. What you’ve done is great and the help is outstanding.

Thanks you Iminit.

And I agree the help has been outstanding. The babies are definitely being raised via a community effort.

[CliffsDiscus]

You should be on the beefheart schedule and increase waterchanges.

Cliff

[Rolla P]

I tried measuring their growth today but that's difficult because A: They don't pose and B: the tank is a bow front so the measurement isn't accurate with curved glass. But I got a measurement of 2.2CM on average.

I'm not sure where that puts me in terms of progress in 18 days. I've read that they should grow by at least 1 inch per month and if that's true I have 10 days to get an additional 3.4 MM. I did a combination of recording and basically following them around the front glass with a tape measure.

blurry screen grab

https://i.imgur.com/npDCTCp.jpg



You should be on the beefheart schedule and increase waterchanges.

Cliff

They're in a 180 bow front filled to 70% capacity so 126L or 33gal. They get over 100% changed via 2 daily water changes of 50-60%

As for the beef heart... I'm just not a fan of it and I'm wondering if FDABW which is almost as high in protein will suffice?

[Rolla P]

Day 19

https://i.imgur.com/NTdVsd1.jpg

[Second Hand Pat]

Day 19

https://i.imgur.com/NTdVsd1.jpg

They look great :D
Pat

[Rolla P]

They look great :D
Pat

Hi Pat and thank you.

I am trying my best to grow them out but I'm noticing slight variations in size. Is that a natural occurrence at this stage and if so what would be the cause?

Thanks.

[Rolla P]

Unfortunately I've noticed that the second spawn from a different pair aren't growing at the same pace?

Same dual sponge filtrater seeded from the same canister filter. Same temp. Same WC schedule. Same food (BBS) and same number of feeds but unfortunately, they haven't grown at the same rate? They're on day 9 of free swimming but in comparison much smaller. I have seen some (6 or so) remain at the same size and look closer to first free swimming.

Is this natural or am I a fault somewhere?

[Second Hand Pat]

Unfortunately I've noticed that the second spawn from a different pair aren't growing at the same pace?

Same dual sponge filtrater seeded from the same canister filter. Same temp. Same WC schedule. Same food (BBS) and same number of feeds but unfortunately, they haven't grown at the same rate? They're on day 9 of free swimming but in comparison much smaller. I have seen some (6 or so) remain at the same size and look closer to first free swimming.

Is this natural or am I a fault somewhere?

So strains grow slower then others. What's the strain of the second pair?
Pat

[Rolla P]

So strains grow slower then others. What's the strain of the second pair?
Pat

Same strain "BD" but a different pair that spawned 12 days later.

[Second Hand Pat]

Same strain "BD" but a different pair that spawned 12 days later.

Some other things to consider (based on logic) is health and age of the parent, the parents parenting skills and perhaps the health and vitality of the fry. I am sure Cliff or Willie would have better suggestions then mine. :)
Pat

[LizStreithorst]

I pay less attention to speed of growth than I do to over all shape for age. Your babies are fine.

[Rolla P]

Hey guys

Firstly thanks for taking the time to respond as always. I find myself reading through every grow out/development blog and/or post I an find and the standard seems to be that the fry need to reach an inch within a month and 2.5-3 inches within 3 months. Pair 1's babies are 23 days old (since free swimming) and while there are some slight variations appear on track some are above an inch (in my estimation) already.

Side note, I'm not sure if it's the light or if they're showing faint signs of blue colouration.

https://i.imgur.com/h39Ux5O.jpg

Pair 2 have babies that have been free swimming for 12 days but in comparison to pair 1's babies, at 12 days free swimming, look under developed?

https://i.imgur.com/c5opKIv.jpg

I thought there may be an issue despite the fact that I'm following the exact same method for both groups. Perhaps I'm taking too many pictures and instead I should be looking for shape as Liz says...

I guess I need to go digging for a reference point on shape. THat said, they do look pretty round when they flare while eating.

[CliffsDiscus]

Your Blue Diamond are crossed probably with another solid blue fish. The 1 inch standard are just an estimate for brown, blue, greens, some turoquoise, pigeon. Then their are slower growth rate for true blue diamonds and some albinos. Your Blue Diamonds are growing at a faster rate
than the true strain blue diamonds because of the crossing(commercialize) for production. Your second pair are sibling of the first pair? The small
batch might have a higher percentage of BD. I wouldn't worry about the growth rate be what's going on about the clamp finnage.

Cliff

[Rolla P]

Your Blue Diamond are crossed probably with another solid blue fish. The 1 inch standard are just an estimate for brown, blue, greens, some turoquoise, pigeon. Then their are slower growth rate for true blue diamonds and some albinos. Your Blue Diamonds are growing at a faster rate
than the true strain blue diamonds because of the crossing(commercialize) for production. Your second pair are sibling of the first pair? The small
batch might have a higher percentage of BD. I wouldn't worry about the growth rate be what's going on about the clamp finnage.

Cliff

Hey Cliff

Thanks for dropping some info. I'm no master of the genetics beyond what strains will and will not pepper. If I'm understanding you right, my BD pair 1, are more commercialized strain due to crossing. Truth be told I had no idea, so thanks for that nugget of info. It has given me a lot to think about and more research to do.

The Second pair are from the same source. A stendker importer to UK I got from contacting Stendker directly. They're all from the that source.

That aside I'm taking to looking at the shape as Liz suggested. Screen grab from a vid day 23

https://i.imgur.com/O0feLNW.jpg

Short vid, they tend to flare mostly over food so I wanted to see what everyone thinks about the shape. They change in daily increments. Yesterday I thought it was due to lighting that I was seeing a slight hue of blue, but today I'm certain there is some colouration.

https://i.imgur.com/yfifRT7.mp4

[LizStreithorst]

The overall shape is fine. You have problems with the dorsal fins though. I see blue as well.

[Rolla P]

The overall shape is fine. You have problems with the dorsal fins though. I see blue as well.



Hi Liz. Please elaborate about the dorsal fin issue.

[danotaylor]

I think Liz is pointing out the notch where the spiney dorsal rays and the soft rays transition.

[seanyuki]

The 9 spikes on the dorsal fin must be an alignment with the form of the fins.The ridge should form a smooth curve and not some longer or some shorter.


129314


Hi Liz. Please elaborate about the dorsal fin issue.

[Second Hand Pat]

Wouldn't it be prudent to give the fish more time to see if the fins even out?
Pat

[Rolla P]

I think Liz is pointing out the notch where the spiney dorsal rays and the soft rays transition.


The 9 spikes on the dorsal fin must be an alignment with the form of the fins.The ridge should form a smooth curve and not some longer or some shorter.

[QUOTE=Second Hand Pat;1348449]Wouldn't it be prudent to give the fish more time to see if the fins even out?
Pat

Thanks for chiming in guys. I really do appreciate it even if it's potential bad news or flaw...

As I've never done this before, I spend a lot of time pulling from other peoples timelines/development and try to put the disparate parts together as a guideline. FOr example on UK forums there are breeders who only use RO for spawning and quickly transition to tap water which results in a lot of loss. Whereas in comparison other discus keepers in other countries where the parameters are more forgiving have a better "success" rate. Which is why fry size and shape is what I've used to measure the health of the fry and why I didn't see a potential issue.

What appears to be happening is that the smaller fry have the spikes which appear to be more separate/individual. Whereas the larger fry seem to be "unifying" the spikes from the base upwards. Leaving the top of the dorsal more spiky looking but further down more unified. I tried to get a couple of pics of larger fry, during feeding as that's where they tend to flare most.

https://i.imgur.com/OYemp7j.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FEI6hx5.jpg

This is day 25 of free swimming and just looking at the difference between their form factor 10 days ago and today I'm just hoping that the dorsal fin alignment is part of their future development process. It was mentioned earlier in this thread that fry develop differently across strains and genetics. I have seen some discus far larger than mine at the same point in time and others that are miniscule in comparison but at the same age. But thankfully all developed into the beauties we all know this species to be

I do have my arms, legs, fingers, and toes crossed. That it'll sort itself out within the first 3 months.

Here's the male of pair 2, he looks to have a similar spike but when he flares his dorsal is aligned and unified. Under planted T5 LED lighting and a jet black background I'm hoping it's easier to see.

https://i.imgur.com/pMLjFPW.jpg