Started to lower pH, all fish stopped eating.

[skaggerik]

Hey!

I started lowering my pH yesterday. I have around 8.2 out of the tap, when the pH increased from 7.8 I started to get some fin rot. I use neutral buffer and this has worked well before. These are f1 fish, they've done ok with 7,8 but they don't want it any higher. I have 3 dkh and very low gh. I brought the pH down to 7,9 and now none of my fish will eat. They stopped over night. Coincidence? Ideas? Ammonia is 0, nitrite 0 and nitrates are close to 0 due to heavy water changes. Filter is well run in.

Erik

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Erik, discus can take a upward ph swing much better then a downward ph swing as the fish are showing you. I am also wondering if the buffer is making the ph unstable. Best to monitor with a ph meter I think.
Pat

[skaggerik]

Hi Erik, discus can take a upward ph swing much better then a downward ph swing as the fish are showing you. I am also wondering if the buffer is making the ph unstable. Best to monitor with a ph meter I think.
Pat

I measured 7,9 this morning so I don't think it's particularly unstable. The just ate some granules, witch made my happy. It seems like I'll just have to lower very slowly.

[Oxboy]

Question: why are you messing with pH?

[skaggerik]

Question: why are you messing with pH?

Because pH in my tap water started to rise, this combined with fin rot, the ruling out of other causes for fin rot with the fact that they're f1 made me conclude that pH is the reason. I have had this happen before. They breed in 7.0, thrived in 7.5 but problem occurred with higher pH. Their appetite has become better and they're in 1 ppm acriflavine. I believe that I have made the right decision.

[AquaticNerd]

I don't think you should be too concerned with a pH of 7.8 - 8.0. That's what my pH is year round and my discus are thriving and breeding (of course, with high TDS the eggs calcify and harden before they're able to result in any fry).

I think a stable pH, no matter if it's high or low, is better than trying to artificially trying to manipulate it. Just my two cents.

[danotaylor]

Bunch of folks here keep discus in water with pH >8. I have never heard of fun rot caused by low levels of alkalinity. Have you tested your source water for ammonia?

[skaggerik]

Bunch of folks here keep discus in water with pH >8. I have never heard of fun rot caused by low levels of alkalinity. Have you tested your source water for ammonia?

I have had ammonia and nitrite stable at 0. Dieter Untergasser, Handbook of fish diseases, lists high pH as a possible cause for fin rot. A very well-reputable importer, breeder and seller in South Sweden agrees with me in this. He has done discus for 30 years and been selling them for 15 years.

[danotaylor]

I wasn't asking about your tanks ammonia level, I am suggesting you test the source water to cover all bases.
8.2 is not highly alkaline though, particularly when you're only talking about a 0.4 increase that has seemingly been gradual. If you went from 6 to 8 that would be a different story altogether...just trying to cover all bases.

[skaggerik]

I wasn't asking about your tanks ammonia level, I am suggesting you test the source water to cover all bases.
8.2 is not highly alkaline though, particularly when you're only talking about a 0.4 increase that has seemingly need gradual. If you went from 6 to 8 that would be a different story altogether...just trying to cover all bases.

Yeah, no ammonia in tap water. 👌

[danotaylor]

I forgot that ammonia actually becomes less toxic at higher pH's so my initial line of thinking was off there anyway...
Sudden 0.4 pH change could put the discus off their food, but I don't think that would account for fin rot or burn. You have a veritable mystery there my european fellow!

[skaggerik]

I forgot that ammonia actually becomes less toxic at higher pH's so my initial line of thinking was off there anyway...
Sudden 0.4 pH change could put the discus off their food, but I don't think that would account for fin rot or burn. You have a veritable mystery there my european fellow!

Yes, these are strange fish...

[jeep]

I don't think your ph is the issue either. 8.2 isn't that high and is the same as what I have. That doesn't mean it's not a water related issue. What do you feed them? Have they been wormed?

[Second Hand Pat]

I forgot that ammonia actually becomes less toxic at higher pH's so my initial line of thinking was off there anyway...
Sudden 0.4 pH change could put the discus off their food, but I don't think that would account for fin rot or burn. You have a veritable mystery there my european fellow!

Hi Danny, ammonia becomes less toxic with a lower ph. Remember when you ship fish in a bag the ph drops and the ammonia increases due to the fish pees etc in the bag. If you open the bag to air the ph rises making the ammonia more toxic which burns the fins etc of the fish.
Pat

[Willie]

Neutral Buffer is just one of the many things marketed to aquarists that simply do not work. The reason is that it's a phosphate buffer and bacteria in the tank gradually consumes phosphate, a key ingredient in DNA. When you add the buffer, it will change the pH. Very quickly, the buffering effect is gone when phosphates are consumed. So you measured 7.8 on Day 1 and 7.9 the next morning. You'll be back to where you started before the end of the week.

There's no problem with keeping discus at 8.2. Just make lots of water changes and your discus will thrive.

[skaggerik]

0,1 is within the margins of my test kit. It's still steady.

[danotaylor]

Hi Danny, ammonia becomes less toxic with a lower ph. Remember when you ship fish in a bag the ph drops and the ammonia increases due to the fish pees etc in the bag. If you open the bag to air the ph rises making the ammonia more toxic which burns the fins etc of the fish.
Pat

Thanks Pat...I had that back to front, upside down and inside out :/